conspiracy theories in the Guns forum

[iverglas]

This one is very popular, although some posters are more circumspect in how they phrase their allegation:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=477608&mesg_id=478047

Iktomiwicasa
Wed Nov-09-11 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #17

22. You're right....

I think there is a whole lot more to the story <Fast and Furious> than just a bunch of rogue agents sending 2000 guns across the border for grins and giggles

Yes, there is more to it than that for sure...such as persons high up in the current administration engineering a disaster for the sake of ginning up support for their anti- 2ND Amendment agenda.

Another post in the same thread is to the same effect, if more obscure ("complicit" in what?) (and this is not that poster's first volley of the allegation by any means):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=477608&mesg_id=478045

(and now see the reply by the person quoted below to my reply to the person quoted above, consisting of:
.cms -- do click)

Katya Mullethov
Wed Nov-09-11 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #20

21. The fact that Calderone (Sinochapoloa.MX.GOV)have quit bitching about "it"

and aint on the horn at this very minute screaming for somebodies head on a stick speaks volumes .
He's either complicit and quietly waiting for yet more Merida Initiative Mordida , or he's a pussy .

This is an allegation of extremely serious wrongdoing, quite apart from how loony the allegation is (and apart from the unsubstantiated allegation of an "anti-Second Amendment agenda", which I might think was problematic in itself, in this place).

Allegedly, the Obama administration intentionally caused the delivery of thousands of firearms into Mexico, where they were used to cause untold harm -- in order to generate and support calls for more stringent firearms control measures in the US.

I know where I would expect to see this kind of crap, and it isn't Democratic Underground. (I've seen it in those places, in fact.)

I can't help but see the allegation as reflecting a lot more on the people who make it than on the Obama administration.

"Do not post disrespectful nicknames, crude insults, or right-wing smears against Democrats."

I'd say it qualifies.

?


edit -- Yes, I could just alert every time I happen to catch this allegation being posted. That doesn't seem to me to be an effective way of dealing with a right-wing meme simply being reposted every time one instance of it is deleted.

[Skinner]

1. Both of those people have been banned. (nt)

[iverglas]

2. your attention and concern is very much appreciated

and just while I'm here, my thanks (which I have expressed to the moderator) for the locking of a thread in the Canada forum and the comment made on locking.

[iverglas]

3. I am concerned that this is continuing

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x480442

There continue to be allegations that someone (ranging from someone in the ATF on up) engineered the "gunwalking" to Mexico in order to provide evidence that would then be used to justify gun control measures to be proposed.

See in that thread:

AzWorker Fri Nov-18-11 09:03 PM Response to Reply #6
10. Anecdotal evidence.....
Remember thats what the DC ATF supervisor told the PHX ATF supervisor in one of the released DOJ/ATF email, he hoped that F&F would provide the anecdotal evidence they required to push for border State long gun reporting...
So yes, ATF seemed to be making sales happen and expected to get some more gun regulations out of it...

iverglas Sat Nov-19-11 02:58 PM Response to Reply #10
14. may I see that email please?
Thank you.

AzWorker Sat Nov-19-11 08:10 PM Response to Reply #14
15. Here is a link
From the summer of 2010....
Thanks



iverglas Sat Nov-19-11 09:38 PM Response to Reply #15
17. what an appallingly unfounded allegation you made

It was: "So yes, ATF seemed to be making sales happen and expected to get some more gun regulations out of it..."

What you have actually produced in your attempt to back that up is the complete opposite.

It appears quite clear from that memo that there had been an observed phenomenon that indicated the existence of a problem, and that in order to take action to combat the problem (which is, you know, what governments tend to do), evidence of the phenomenon was being collected. ...

Sure is interesting where one finds that text on the internet ...

http://www.google.ca/search?complete=0&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=612&q=%22see+if+these+guns+were+all+purchased+from+same+ffl%22&btnG=Google+Search&gbv=2

(the first result in my list is right-wing americanthinker.com; the second is freerepublic; others include thefiringline.com, freedominion.ca, and Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley's website.

This appears to be a smear campaign directed at the Democratic administration and its agencies, orchestrated by the right wing and its gun militant faction.

I have made no thorough study of this Fast and Furious thing myself, and you may be more conversant with the issues. If you think these discussions are reasonable criticism of the administration and its agencies based on actual facts and genuine concerns on the part of Democrats/progressives, and not a case of Democratic Underground being used to broadcast right-wing smears, I will of course bow to your greater expertise. ;)

[iverglas]

4. please also see further posts to the same effect

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=480442&mesg_id=481046

Hoopla Phil
Sun Nov-20-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #15

20. Holy shit!!! THAT is the smoking gun that proves

this was used to further a gun control agenda - by our own government!

I think posters are being very clever in their efforts to disguise what they are really saying: that the sales of firearms into Mexico were orchestrated by US authorities in order to generate demand for gun control in the US.

(If the allegation were just that the evidence of what happened was being collected to support firearms control proposals, there would be no "holy shit" about it, it would simply be the government doing its job: identifying a problem, collecting evidence of the problem and proposing a remedy for the problem.)

And I don't understand why I'm seeing this over and over at Democratic Underground.

It's a right-wing smear against Democrats, no more and no less.

[Skinner]

5. I just banned that guy for something else. (nt)