Can We Be Real for a Moment?

[MadBadger]

The only question that people should have about this bill is, Does it improve or worsen the status quo?

Let's not pretend that even the public option could pass at the moment because it cant. It cannot pass the senate. Joe Lieberman wouldnt vote for it, and theres a good chance that a slew of other "Democrats" wouldnt either.

Seems to me like this bill is imperfect, but is the best that we are going to get at the moment when you look at the reality of who is in the Senate and how it functions.

[Skink]

1. Let's just be real cause that is something that might have happened in the eighties...

once.

[Clio the Leo]

2. Seems to be a pretty easy concept to grasp. NT

[sandnsea]

3. OR, VT, & MA have subsidized insurance

maybe some other states too. It's not as if we can't look at a few places and ask actual users of the plans whether it has improved their lives or not.

Why won't those who oppose this bill listen to the ones who are actually using the plan.

[ZombieHorde]

4. "Does it improve or worsen the status quo?"

The bill both improves and worsens the status quo.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Worsens the status quo by taxing union health benefits

and will push employers to ditch good health plans in favour of el-cheapo plans.

[Sebastian Doyle]

6. To answer that question, you must also ask "WHY does the status quo suck"?

It's the criminal greed of the insurance companies that is the problem. The current bill not only continues to enable this criminal behavior, it rewards them with millions of new customers and payments to them mandated by federal law, including subsidies (supposedly) for those who can't afford the ransom themselves.

It's the equivalent of putting a thief on trial, finding him guilty and "sentencing" him to a gated community in Beverly Hills with keys to all the mansions.

[LastNaturalist]

7. Improves. Could and should have improved more. But improves.

[DrToast]

8. Really? That's the only question? How about, "Can we do better?"

That seems like a pretty good question.

[MadBadger]

9. We just skated by with this, what makes you think we could improve and keep the votes?

I honestly think this is the best that we are going to get.

[DrToast]

10. Yes, I do think so

If we wanted to.

[LastNaturalist]

11. Uhhh. no.

[MadBadger]

12. I dont think you've met Joe Lieberman, Ben Nelson, etc.

[girl gone mad]

23. Come on.

Why should it be considered impossible to pass a public option when the majority of people are for it?

Why are we passing a bill with a mandate when 78% of the people are against the mandate?

Lieberman and Nelson should have been pressured and shamed, as should some of the Republicans in moderate districts.

This whole affair was badly handled, and it looks suspiciously like that was by design.

[ThomCat]

14. I think you are refusing to ask the tough questions.

By assuming that we could not have had better results you assume that the sell-out to lobbyists was inevitable, and that it was inevitable that Obama would not and could not be bothered to even try to enforce any discipline in the party.

You assume that all of Obama's secret meetings with corporate reps were necessary, as were his giveaways to the corporations.

You also assume that just because Obama excluded universal health care as ever being an option for discussion, and excluded proponents of universal health care from ever joining the debate, that this was the only way it could ever have been done.

You are not asking "What did Obama do wrong?" You are not asking "Why were progressives deliberately excluded?" You are not asking "Why was Universal Health Care never even considered, even as a bargaining chip to help get some of what we wanted?" You are not asking "Why was the whole process conducted behind closed doors by a president who campaigned on implementing Transparency in his administration?"

If you really believe that this is the best we could have done then I think you are wrong and incredibly short sighted.

[tavalon]

21. If this is the best we can get, then the folks in power

now will soon be out of power. It would be nice if they would use a little of their power while they still have it. They might even get to keep it if they did.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. That question presupposes we were led this point. We Were Not

We got here because of a *lack* of leadership

[MadHound]

15. Ah yes, that old classic, the Democratic Settle

You know, I've noticed that the 'Pugs actually don't state things like "best we're going to get". They actually go out and get the best. They don't settle, they don't cave, and they're willing to fight. Granted, their priorities and morals are fucked up, but you've got to admired that will do spirit they've got.

Shame that the Dems don't have that kind of spirit. Instead they start out with some grand plan, water it down here, cave in a bit there, and before you know it, VOILA!, the grand plan, the great vision has become the "best we're going to get at the moment", a POS that does more harm than good.

[LastNaturalist]

17. You probably don't know your history, but...

The Democratic Senators of 1957 had to settle for a pretty shitty civil rights bill. It allowed for more rights regarding blacks and voting, but in reality did very little. A man named Senator Lyndon Johnson helped pass it, because he knew, "you have to break the skin."

[MadHound]

16. Ah yes, that old classic, the Democratic Settle

You know, I've noticed that the 'Pugs actually don't state things like "best we're going to get". They actually go out and get the best. They don't settle, they don't cave, and they're willing to fight. Granted, their priorities and morals are fucked up, but you've got to admired that will do spirit they've got.

Shame that the Dems don't have that kind of spirit. Instead they start out with some grand plan, water it down here, cave in a bit there, and before you know it, VOILA!, the grand plan, the great vision has become the "best we're going to get at the moment", a POS that does more harm than good.

[jeanpalmer]

18. The status quo is pretty bad

and on course to get worse. Mandated private insurance to support a bloated system is not an improvement. Just because something's different doesn't mean it's better. There are much better alternatives. The fact that we can't get one of them through Congress now doesn't justify accepting a bad result.

But it has come down to a matter of political will, a test of one group's ability to impose it's will on the other, with little regard for the merits of the proposal. And a test of loyalty for some people. I never thought I'd see the day when liberal Democrats would accept an expensive mandated private insurance scheme as the solution to our healthcare problems. It shows you how far off track the debate has gone.

I'm just thankful I have decent insurance that this propsal can't touch.

[ThePhilosopher04]

19. Let's see...

status quo = sleeping in a pile of shit...this bill = sleeping in a pile of vomit and shit.

[Oregone]

20. What if it does neither? Maybe it simply changes the status quo and transforms the problems apparent

(though the main problem of costs will never be solved)

I really doubt the country will have any chance shouldering these per capita health expenses for much longer, and its going to continue to hamper the economy and competitiveness. Outsourcing insurance to the private market is quite costly, and America is about to pay big time, in a bad way.

[TheKentuckian]

22. Lets get real, if big insurance wants to continue as they have then it will make matters worse

Now, if you happen to believe that what big insurance needed was some basic rules and reassurance that neither their customers nor their profits could never, ever be in danger to improve conditions then there is plenty to be optimistic about.

Since we can't be sure even the people helped with coverage or those currently with it will be able to afford care and matters are somewhat compounded by setting up a tax structure that encourages benefit reduction, it would seem like a tough sell to be sure we'll be better off. The only thing that seems fairly clear is that if all goes well then getting really sick might not be as devastating as it is now but on average people will pay more to get less, by law.

[GeorgeGist]

24. Progressives are quite aware ...

of the shortcomings of reality. That's why they're so disgusted.