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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:18 PM
Original message
Jane Hamsher convinced me: Pass The Bill!

Jane Hamsher convinced me: Pass The Bill!

by deaniac83

<...>

None other than Jane Hamsher has convinced me that the Senate health care bill is, in fact, better than the status quo. I know, what? Jane Hamsher? Isn't she the FDL warrior fighting against this Senate bill? Yes, yes she is. But she gave me some particular pieces of information that I was very impressed by.

I got an email from her this morning excoriating the vices of the current Senate bill. Don't get me wrong, I think the bill is full of vices. It's also on the FDL website with a petition. And it convinced me that this bill must pass and is much, much, much better than the status quo.

She argues that the bill:

Forces you to pay up to 8% of your income to private insurance corporations -- whether you want to or not

What? Really? 8%? That's incredible! If American families could get health insurance for only 8% of their income, you could bet a lot more of us would have it. In 2008, the average family premium for health insurance was $12,298. In 2003, the median income of a family of 4 was $67,019. So, umm... a typical family of 4, in the status quo is paying, let's see, over 18% of their income in health insurance premiums. Put it another way, a typical family of four would see their premiums reduced from $12,298 under the status quo to $5361.52. And remember that incomes over about $66,000 a year are not provided premium subsidies by the government, and still cannot be charged more than 8% by law - indicating a real and overall significant reduction of premiums going to insurance companies. Wow. This is fantastic!

Oh and by the way, the 8% cap is also an improvement over the House bill, which has a cap of 12% on premiums. It is also improved from the previous senate version, which had a 9.8% cap (link). This is real insurance reform.

If you refuse to buy the insurance, you'll have to pay penalties of up to 2% of your annual income to the IRS

Yes, yes you will. That is, if your premiums aren't entirely covered by subsidies. Let's see. If you have the means to, but refuse to purchase insurance (these are the only people subject to this penalty, since there is a hardship exemption), you are going to use emergency rooms as your primary health care center. And we, as taxpayers, will be paying for you. Don't you think it's fair for you to pay a little bit in so that when you do come to the emergency room, they are not all closed down?

After being forced to pay thousands in premiums for junk insurance, you can still be on the hook for up to $11,900 a year in out-of-pocket medical expenses.


Where is she getting this $11,900 number? Out of pocket expense cap? If that's where she is getting it, I would like to compare this to the out of pocket expenses under the status quo. There are no caps. You can have a "deductible" per incident of $1000 or more. If you have "good" insurance, maybe your insurance covers 80% of your hospital care up to 30 days every year. That's the status quo. Under the senate bill, it caps your out-of-pocket expenses. That's supposed to be worse than the status quo? I'm at a loss over here.

Jane is also a little misleading. The Senate bill's out-of-pocket cap of $11,900 is on a family plan. An individual plan would have a $5,950 cap. What's more, not everyone would be subject to this high cap. The cap is actually 10% of one's income, and no more than the dollar amounts capped.

more


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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. K and R and LOL at the unrecs. I Love the Hate.
I know it's a little disturbing, but I've begun to love the hate for Obama that I see in some posts and replies.

Only a few are brave or shameless enough to air their ignorance, and it's become very predictable.

But it's almost like a sport anymore.

K and R, ProSense.

Keep up the good work!

:applause:
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I'm starting to love the hate too.
It's becoming comical at this point.

All the pronouncements of certain doom are freaking hilarious. There is no difference between the posts I see here and the GOP whores speaking right now on CSPAN2. None.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
46. What I really find comical
Are the 'rec' and 'unrec' drama queens

:)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. And yet you don't point them out... doesnt sound so transparent to me n/t
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. truly amazing. Someone has to be on a payroll .Noone totally approves of HCR
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Yes, a conspiracy theory is the correct reply to the OP debunking Hamster's BS.
Someone named Deaniac "has to be on a payroll".

:eyes:
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I think it might be WITCHCRAFT!!11!!!
I think the DLC is using witchcraft to make some people do research and get to the facts.

And then they POST THEM HERE!!!

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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. !!!
:rofl:
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. From someone who has Clark( whom I like) in their name that is silly.
And the OP has never really debunked anyone.But whateveh!
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Is your old trick attacking the messenger with "your own propaganda"? Guess you're a Hamster fan.
So transparent.
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. The Obama Hate is strong with this one...
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. Do you want to let us in on the big secret of why you're attacking the OP?
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. Ha haaa! That one was funny. Thanks Proey. NT
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kick
and keep kicking.
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Top Cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. Kick
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tandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. K & R
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. There's an even better reason for the mandates than the article suggests.
It's not really a question of emergency room use: it's rather a question of distributing the costs of health care onto healthy people as well as sick people, so that sickness does not mean bankruptcy. You can't prohibit insurance companies from charging high-risk people more if you don't have a mandate.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. And the "healthy people" are predominantly "The Young"....
You remember...the 24 MILLION that turned out to support Obama & The Democrats in 2008?

I wonder how they are going to feel knowing that Obama & The Democrats are FORCING them to BUY an invisible and pretty much worthless (high deductibles) product from the For Profit Health Insurance Cartel so that the overall cost for us old folk will be less?

I don't think they are going to be happy.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. They actually didn't stop different rates based on age.
Though they capped them 3:1.

And ensuring that people can get sick or have pre-existing conditions without risking economic devastation or an outright lack of care is worth politically unpopular measures. It's worth losing elections over. (Further, poll results consistently indicate that most Americans of all age levels support aid to the elderly: generational transfer is a popular policy even among the young...)
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Isn't that the point?
And it will be there for them when they get old.

I paid into the system when i was young without pitching a hissy fit.

So will those voters. They choose Obama for that reason. If they did not care about anybody else or any other generation they'd have voted for McPain.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. The young typically earn less, and are also more likely to be subsidized.
:shrug:
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Subsidies?
Oh, you mean money from the Public Treasury that MUST be handed directly to the For Profit Health Insurance Cartel?

Thats some deal.

"Give us a Trillion Dollars, or we will let this poor person DIE...
Just like we always have."


Well, it worked for the Wall Street Bankers,
and NOW its going to work for the Health Insurance Cartel.

"A Uniquely American Solution"...indeed.
Give the people that CAUSED the problem a Trillion Dollars.

Oh Well.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I hope we have a public
option at the very least.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. Exactly
right. Without single payer, a mandate is necessary. However, I do hope we can squeak in a public option of sorts.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Even single-payer is a mandate of sorts, because it's funded through taxes.
With that consideration, every other industrialized country has some kind of mandate system. So will we: it's not a pleasant policy, but it's a necessary one.

Here's hoping we can squeak in a public option, too... but I don't see it happening. Any conference report still has to pass the filibuster.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Agreed.
:hi:
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. Great read.
And with a sense of humor, even -- a real rarity in this whole HCR process. :D

:kick:

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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. Excellent!
Thank you for posting this.

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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. This woman makes me ashamed to be on the left
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pschoeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. 8% premium limit is not in effect for people over 400% poverty
So for me as a single person with no dependents anything over $43,320 will mean I can be charged any premium they want.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. Hamsher has worked tirelessly on our behalf..
to try and get a good health bill through Congress.

As far as I can tell, "deaniac83" has written one rather nasty and fact-deprived diary entry.

I'm gonna go with Jane on this one.
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damonm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. ...true, but here she's just flat-out WRONG. n/t
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. "Our behalf"? Speak for yourself.
Hamsher has exposed herself and it's not pretty. Are you ready to union up with the sick-fuck teabaggers as she recommends?

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/20/817242/-Sorry-Miz-Jane-Hamsher.-No.-
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Obama and co. partnered up with the sick-fuck Joe Lieberman..
to kill the public option and craft a bill that's a sham rip-off, insurance company giveaway.

Yet, Hamsher is the enemy here?
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. To the above poster everyone who doesnt fall in line with Obama is the enemy
havent you seen their countless posts?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #33
48. Oh did hamsher tell you that? She's a fucking liar.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
25. Out of pocket cap. Actually, many (or most) have out of pocket caps lower than $11,900 now.
For policies on individuals. Maybe the bill's cap is a tad lower. Maybe not. That cap amount will be one of the easiest things to change in the future...and it will change. But it does force cos. to adhere to a cap, for those cos. that don't have caps now.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
28. A classic sycophant tactic- bring out the strawman (or woman)
Use him or her as a justification for your alliance with one of the most despised industries in the country.

That'll teach those nasty progressives to daring to oppose massive giveaways from the treasury and mandates to buy junk insurance that people can neither afford to use- nor if they do have to use it, will prevent millions from losing their homes or filing bankruptcy over medical bills.

Bottom line for the sycophants: anything that Congress and the administration says is "good" policy- must be, regardless of its effects on ordinary Americans- and regardless of the precedents that it sets for future reforms that might be coming down the pipeline.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. "Bottom line for the sycophants: " Great rebuttal
Basically: "poor us, the anti-Obama critic," those mean "sycophants" with facts in hand disagree with us.

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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. There were no facts in hand.
Just a lot of hate for Hamsher and hope that the insurance companies will play nice-nice.

Good luck with that. :)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. Yeah, they can dish out all the disingenous "MARCHING WITH THE TEABAGGERS"
but don't let anyone call them on it or they'll bring out the "sychophants" name-calling.:nopity:
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
36. I would only hope that someone as indisputably gifted a film-maker
as Jane Hamsher would stop the character smears on Democrats and make a goddam film.

Jane. JUST in case you're hanging 'round these boards, I'll buy the first ticket.

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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
37. Jane....Jane...Jane...You help the lulz. I like this writer. n/t
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
40. I got that email today, too. I unsubscribed along with long comment as to why
Edited on Mon Dec-21-09 10:04 PM by jenmito
we must pass this bill. K&R BTW. :)
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
42. K & fuc*ing R
Thank you!
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Silver Gaia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
45. Kick
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
47. Hamsher has laid waste to her credibility I'm afraid. n/t
n/t
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
49. kick
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