If only the "herd mentality" in Congress to pass this had been there when it counted

[Armstead]

It is very distressing to see the WH finally get tough, and the Congressional Democrats getting unified NOW WHEN IT IS TOO FUCKING LATE.

Jeezus. Why did Obama not get tough and exert leadership for a real public option or expansion of Medicare?

Where was this new unity and message discipline of Congressional Democrats before when it mattered? Why did the Democrats squabble and piddle and piss away all of the good things that could have been accomplished?

Why are they so effective at steamrolling liberals and forcing them to support this bill, when they were at the mercy of a few recalcitrant ConservaDdems before?

Only when they have a bad bill that none of them really like do they show any determination to "get it done"

Something's wrong with this picture.

[Vincardog]

1. Did you ever think that this is the bill Obama wanted? You have to look at what he DID not what he

SAID.

[Armstead]

5. I know...But I am trying to give them the benefit of the doubt

It's hard to do though

[Vincardog]

6. I have been giving them all the slack I had. But the slack just ran out.

[Nite Owl]

2. It may have mattered to us

but their goals were somewhat different. Maybe they feel successful? Only logical conclusion I can see now.

[DJ13]

3. Maybe they feel successful?

Im sure they do.

Corks are popping in the WH right this moment.

And popping in the executive suites of the insurers too.

[JVS]

4. Let the blue dogs run free, demand lockstep from the liberals after appeasing them

Thanks Rahm and Barack!

[NJmaverick]

7. How would this "heard mentality" help? Liberman isn't part of the heard

and neither is the GOPers. I don't follow your logic.

[Armstead]

8. You never follow my logic....But here's a try

Obama and the Democrats have decided its time to get the bill passed and they are pulling out all the stops.

The White House is showing strong leadership, members of Congress are marching in lockstep to push this through, they are being tough and efficient.

The only problem is that instead of using this same toughness and leadership when the bill was being put together, they dithered and bungled and lost things like public options and otehr things. So they end up with a bill that none of them really likes by their own admission, and which leaves out much of what they promised and includes things that are harmful (mandates witout any public program).

Seems a shame that they can only get their act together when its too late and they are using that to ram through something that could have been much better had they gotten their actv together before.

[NJmaverick]

9. Let me try a different approach. Please lay out for me the scenerio of what would have happened

if they got, as you say, tough. I see that there are times toughness helps and works and others where it doesn't and diplomacy is the answer. Remember how messed up our foreign policy got when toughness was the answer to every problem.

[Armstead]

10. I'm going out to dinner. Will reply later

[bertman]

11. Don't waste your breath, Armstead. Dr. House will always have a rejoinder, no matter how

much sense you make. I think you have hit the nail on the head.

REC

[NJmaverick]

14. Your rage and ideology has blinded you to all reason, my misguided friend

maybe it's time you take a break from your flame wars.

[treestar]

16. So apparently just having a rejoinder is wrong?

I guess you are one of those last word people. I said it and it's right and that ought to be the last word!

[treestar]

15. I don't know how you can be so sure of how to do everything

Everybody makes mistakes, but if I knew how to do things like this, I figure I'd probably have gotten the job of Congressperson or WH advisor.

Sorry but there's a point where some of this is just hard to just jump on the bandwagon with. I'd need to know a lot more about how it works. From what I do know, we are talking getting large numbers of people on board with things and that will be very complex. What I do in my own work makes me realize how complex that can be.

You may be right and they bungled everything, but there's no basis for me to just agree with that just because the bill isn't good enough. It may also be the best they can do in the situation, and there is just as much reason to believe that as to believe they bungled. In fact, they could have done a terrific job and gotten more than they might have out of Congress for all I know.

I'm just not ready to make pronouncements either way. But I do know this is our system, it is supposed to be difficult to pass a law, so there are checks and balances and nobody gets to be a dictator.

So I see the absolute raging desire to call them failures to be just that - a desire to read everything that way. Reminds me of my uncle who kept saying all the doctors were wrong. He wasn't a doctor, he just wanted them to be wrong so he could criticize them. Having a lack of knowledge about whether they really were doing things wrong, I did not automatically believe him.

[Armstead]

18. I am not sure of anything -- But, like you, I have my opinions

I believe insteaqd of overselling and overpromising, Obama should have pulled the Democrats together at the beginning and drawn up a list of the meaningful reforms that had widespread support and immediate impact on real people, put them into an initial bill that could have been passed easily.

That would give him his initial "win."

Don't stop there, but make it the initial step towards real reform. With that "win" it would have gotten the public on the side of this.

Work on the more difficult things separately, and take the time to get it right.

That doesn't seem like rocket science.

[Kitsune]

12. They were perfectly willing to fuck off for a month in August and turn the story over to the GOP

Would have been nice if they'd been so "GO GO GO" about it then. :/

[Armstead]

13. Exactly my point -- They go after Dean but couldn't fight back against the teabag message

[ShortnFiery]

17. These assholes will pass this piece of shit but THIS TIME, I know the American People are getting

screwed. I will NOT figuratively cry out, "Thank you Sir, may I have another?"

I will not vote for ANY DEMOCRAT who votes for this bill ... NOT ONE! No more will I give into traitors of the people.