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I would highly recommend DUers watch Frontline's "Obama's War"

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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 11:58 PM
Original message
I would highly recommend DUers watch Frontline's "Obama's War"
Edited on Sun Dec-06-09 12:56 AM by zulchzulu
The PBS program Frontline broadcast the documentary "Obama's War" last October, yet it is a very well-done piece of timely journalism about what's at stake in Afghanistan and there are very pointed opinions on what should be done. Granted, the broadcast was done before Obama's December 1 address on the Afghan War, but it really is worth another viewing even if you have seen it before.

I had watched the broadcast (and DVRed it) when it originally came on, but reviewing it several times since has been very educational on the complexities of that war and region.

Take some time to watch it:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/obamaswar/view/...


MP4 links (four sections):
http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/video/flv/28...
http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/video/flv/28...
http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/video/flv/28...
http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/video/flv/28...


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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. It was a good show.
When the soldiers moved next to the market and all the people abandoned the market afraid to be seen with them and as a result had to walk for a much longer distance to get food, it showed how ignorant we are to their needs and the dangers they face. All we did was make their lives that much more dangerous and difficult.
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Shanti Mama Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Kind of like when McCain staged a photo op in Baghdad
and all the residents and shopkeepers on the street were killed the next day for cooperating with the US.
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SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. That really happened??
I didn't hear about that. So, he walks around a market with a bullet-proof vest and security all over the place, claims it's "safe", and then the market gets blown up the next day? How did THAT not make it in the MSM?
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. That's what is so astounding about how obvious our "mission" will fail
We go into a village and occupy it.

That's good for the Taliban and a perfect recruiting tool for Al Qaeda.

We try to make the people in the village turn in Taliban positions and then shoot and bomb those positions.

That's good for the Taliban and a perfect recruiting tool for Al Qaeda.

We tell the village people that growing poppy is bad, even though they have grown it for centuries.

That's good for the Taliban and a perfect recruiting tool for Al Qaeda.

On and on...
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Tippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Miracles do happen......
Edited on Sun Dec-06-09 02:27 PM by Tippy
Bin Laden seen in Afgnistan and this was verified by a Al Qeada or Taliban prisoner according to the AP.....CNN had something about this yesterday..











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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Gates said today that there hasn't been ANY actionable intel on OBL for years
Gates could have said that OBL was seen in Afghanistan recently, as was implied by a hapless Taliban prisoner recently interrogated. He almost laughed as he made the point that OBL is not in Afghanistan.

OBL died in a Paris hospital from complications of kidney or liver cancer a few years ago. I'd believe that before I'd believe OBL is still alive.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. Wonder what Obama's mother, the anthropologist, would think of...
...such a lack of attention to cultural traditions and meanings.

Bush & Co. were too boneheaded to bother, but I expected more of Obama.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. It is an excellent program.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
5. Thank you for posting this. I look forward to watching it again.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
6. Not going to patronize anything with that title
It's Bush's war, Obama is stuck with figuring out what to do with it.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Sorry, but it's Obama's war now
If you want to act like we live in a magical fairyland of mystical lollipops singing some gibberish, go for it.

It is Obama's War now. Granted, he inherited it, but that's not where we are now.

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I'm not blaming Obama for crap started in the Bush Administration by bush
and the neocon cabal. That goes for the economy, the wars, etc.

It's not a fairyland, it's reality. Why are you leaving the neocon cabal clean? they are forgiven already? LOL. That's an interesting perspective.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Am I "leaving the neocon cabal clean"? Are you out of your mind?
I didn't think we needed to attack Afghanistan in the first place. It was bound to be a mistake based on history. It was an overreaction.

It seems very odd to me that people protest the idea AND FACT that the war in Afghanistan IS Obama's War. Last I checked, it's happening during his Administration AND he has set forth a strategy as well as has sent troops there since becoming President.

Do I think the PNAC Neocons get off without a hitch for going into Afghanistan and dithering on a mission that was never winnable and without a reasonable exit strategy?

Fuck no.

They are hardly forgiven. They should be hanged for treason and war profiteering if I had anything to do with it.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Do you pretend the past does not exist?
Everything about Afghanistan is inherited from the neocon cabal. And you have the nerve to call it Obama's war? It is the NEOCON CABAL's war as dealt with by President Obama.

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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. C'mon...
I freaking know about the Bush/PNAC need to get into Afghanistan. I've talked about the TAPI pipeline with Halliburton in the 90s for years. I know this shit.

If you can't face reality and say that the War in Afghanistan is Obama's War now, then dig that hole a little deeper to put your head in. Ferchrissakes...
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. It has been since Jan 20, 2009
comes with the job. This time, we might actually have "A Plan" unlike the previous fiasco.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Right... it's yet another MSM show that borrows a RNC talking point for their show title.
Edited on Sun Dec-06-09 12:33 PM by ClarkUSA
Eric Cantor and John Boehner would approve. :eyes:
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. So if Obama sets a strategy in a war, is it somebody else's strategy?
By saying that the war in Afghanistan is NOT Obama's warat this point is like saying that there was no terrorist attack during the Bush administration.

Give me a goddamn break. Obama inherited two wars the second he was inaugurated. I was there in DC in the freezing cold and knew it.

To say Obama is blameless for any decision on the wars is delusional. Watch the documentary and educate yourself.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-07-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. Um, I was referring to the RNC talking point that is the show's title choice, so chill out.
Edited on Mon Dec-07-09 12:53 PM by ClarkUSA
I know where you stand, zulchzulu. We'll have to agree to disagree. Unlike many others here, I know that your
opposition to Pres. Obama's decision is honest.

<<To say Obama is blameless for any decision on the wars is delusional.>>

I never said that, did I? But to call it "Obama's War" to rebrand it as per RNC strategic aims is delusional as well.
Read this and "educate yourself" as to why I, many DUers, and a big majority of Americans support Pres. Obama's
decision:



"Al Qaeda may be diminished, but it still poses a threat, he said.... Al Qaeda also remains allied with and protected by the Taliban... Retired Gen. James Jones, the president's National Security Adviser, acknowledged on CNN Sunday that the links between the two groups had become a "central issue" in the White House discussion... Bruce Hoffman, a Georgetown University professor who has written extensively on al Qaeda....believes that... if the U.S. pulls out, al Qaeda will return.

Though there is emerging international consensus among counterterrorism officials that al Qaeda isn't the foe it used to be, U.S., Afghan and Pakistani officials caution that it doesn't mean the fight in Afghanistan or Pakistan is tilting America's way. "They're not defeated. They're not dismantled, but they are being disrupted," said a senior U.S. intelligence official in Washington.

Mr. Obama himself has argued that al Qaeda could strengthen if the U.S. eases up on the Taliban. "If left unchecked, the Taliban insurgency will mean an even larger safe haven from which al Qaeda would plot to kill more Americans. So this is not only a war worth fighting," he said at a speech in Phoenix at the Veterans of Foreign Wars convention in August, before the current strategy debate heated up. "This is fundamental to the defense of our people."

For years, the fortunes of al Qaeda and the Taliban moved in tandem. The Taliban hosted al Qaeda in Afghanistan, and Mr. bin Laden's network launched its 2001 attacks from there. After the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan, the Taliban continued to provide haven after retreating to the tribal areas of Pakistan, while al Qaeda trained Taliban fighters.


GENERAL WESLEY CLARK (RET), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER:... It was a strong speech, Larry. I think he laid out an important case.

I agree with a lot of the sentiments that Michael Moore expressed. I do think in this case, the president limited the objectives. He's not talking about nation-building. He's not talking about building a democracy.

I think he pointed right at the objective, go after Al Qaeda. He didn't talk about Pakistan, but Pakistan is all over this speech. And the simple truth is that, as he said, you can't get at Al Qaeda in Pakistan without doing more in Afghanistan.

So I think that he's going to put a lot of pressure on the Pakistanis and give them a lot of help and expect them to do a lot more directly against Al Qaeda while the U.S. forces in Afghanistan also work against Al Qaeda and work for a very minimalist objective with the idea of getting ourselves out of there in a responsible way pretty quickly...

CLARK: I think victory here is we go after Al Qaeda, particularly in Pakistan. We do it with the leadership of the Pakistanis, we give them the support to do it, we build a strong relationship with Pakistan, and we leave behind in Afghanistan some kind of minimally stable government.

If we have to go back in there at some later time, if we have to leave a residual force, if we have to leave some special forces and intelligence collectors there, we might have to do that.

But the point is the objectives in Afghanistan are pretty minimal. What we really want to do is go after Al Qaeda.
And that's a war that there won't be a victory parade. Mark's exactly right on that. But we'll know when we're winning. We've already done a pretty good job against Al Qaeda. We just need to finish the job a little bit more in Pakistan, and we can't do that if we don't hang on in Afghanistan.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/01/lkl.01.h...


... those officials pitted on the front line against the Taliban insurgents, said a rapid surge of 30,000 troops this winter was desperately needed, since Afghan forces could not fight off the current insurgency on their own.

Its a very good idea, said a senior security official who has been in the forefront of tracking Al Qaeda and Taliban since 2001.
The United States had very good human intelligence on Taliban on both sides of the border in Afghanistan and Pakistan but they did not have enough good fighters in the Afghan army and police, he said.

They need the Americans, he said. A surge of extra forces could undercut the insurgency in six months since many of the Taliban were ready to negotiate and could be persuaded to swap sides with a concerted effort, he said.



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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. "Dont cut and run" on those talking points!
they worked so well for the war supporters a few years ago, they are bound to work again!

Here's to Piling Insurgent Bodies Like Cordwood! :beer:
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. The more we try to pile insurgents like cordwood, the more Al Qaeda smiles
It's neat to think that we can go kill people who live in their own country and have been for centuries and call them "insurgents". Of course, we kill lots of innocent people in the process, but it just feels great being in the middle of a tribal civil war that has a narco-kleptocracy (not worth dying for) against the Taliban (who we trained, supported, funded and even want to negotiate with) AND, here's the bonus, we get to give Al Qaeda (and other newer terrorist groups spawning from AQ) the best recruiting tool they could ever wish for!

And... we spend billions of dollars down a rathole while having our own troops die FOR SHIT.

YaY! Go U$A!

:puke:


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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. well said
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/conn-hallinan/why-the-afg...
A good article from Huffington Post:

"The Afghanistan War can only be solved by sitting all the parties down and working out a political settlement. Since the Taliban have already made a seven-point peace proposal, that hardly seems an insurmountable task."
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Obama could have ended it when he came into office...
Instead, he has chosen escalation twice - it's his war now, like it or not.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-06-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thank-you for this valuable site reference. eom
Edited on Sun Dec-06-09 12:32 PM by ShortnFiery
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