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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 07:28 AM
Original message
I'm taking it back!! Embracing an avatar.
Im proud to be a woodchuck. Pragmatic Democrats have been able to accomplish a huge number of positive changes to America under the stewardship of President Obama. He has restored my faith that government can be used to demonstrate how liberal values can restore hope to an America left in shambles by the Repukes.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promis... /
White House provides funding for advanced manufacturing technologies
Updated: Friday, December 4th, 2009 | By Louis Jacobson
It goes by a different name, but the White House on Aug. 5, 2009, announced $2.4 billion in high-tech manufacturing grants that sound a lot like the "Advanced Manufacturing Fund" Barack Obama promised during the campaign. The grants are geared toward keeping American companies at the forefront of emerging manufacturing technologies.

The 48 grants announced in August, which were authorized under the economic stimulus package passed in February, will fund "the manufacturing and deployment of electric vehicles, batteries and components" in the United States, according to the White House. The winners were selected through "a highly competitive process by the Department of Energy" and represent "the single largest investment in advanced battery technology for hybrid and electric-drive vehicles ever made." The federal funds must be matched on a dollar-for-dollar basis by the recipients.

The grants include $1.5 billion for making batteries, battery components and expanding battery recycling capacity; $500 million for electric drive components for vehicles, including electric motors, power electronics and other drive train components; and $400 million to purchase thousands of plug-in hybrid and all-electric vehicles for test demonstrations, deployment, evaluation, and infrastructure installation, as well as work force training to support the shift to electric transportation systems.

We consider this a Promise Kept.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promis... /
Economic stimulus sends money to minority-owned business
Updated: Wednesday, December 2nd, 2009 | By Angie Drobnic Holan
The Small Business Administration is one of several federal agencies that has seen its mission expanded by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.

Officials with the SBA said the stimulus has provided $14.7 billion in small business loans as of Nov. 13, 2009. Twenty percent of that has gone to minority-owned firms. (Just FYI, rural firms received 26 percent, women-owned firms received 19 percent and veteran-owned firms have received 9 percent.)

Additionally, on Aug. 18, Commerce Secretary Gary Locke and Small Business administrator Karen Mills announced a public outreach to small businesses owned by minorities, women and veterans to tell them about contracts available through the economic stimulus. Officials said their goal was to host or participate in 200 events over 90 days to share information on government contracting opportunities.

This is not to say that advocates for minority-owned businesses are entirely pleased with the administration. Time magazine reported that in some cases, stimulus money is bypassing low-income communities and going to more affluent areas where there are fewer minority-owned businesses. The Obama administration has said it's working to make sure stimulus money goes to disadvantaged business enterprises.

Still, it's hard not to see the stimulus as increasing access to capital, and the Obama administration is specifically targeting minority-owned businesses. We rate it Promise Kept.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promis... /
Law sets rule to prevent tax dodges
Updated: Thursday, June 10th, 2010 | By Angie Drobnic Holan
It's called the "economic substance doctrine." What it means is that people aren't allowed to find creative ways to avoid paying their taxes.

Here's how the U.S. Treasury Department defines it: "The common-law 'economic substance' doctrine generally denies tax benefits from a transaction that does not meaningfully change a taxpayers economic position, other than tax consequences, even if the transaction literally satisfies the requirements of the Internal Revenue Code."

In practice, the economic substance doctrine applies in court cases when tax filers, usually companies, are being sued for tax evasion. Tax filers have to prove that financial transactions that appear to be simple tax dodges actually benefit them.

The measure is expected to generate a relatively small amount of new tax revenue, about $4.5 billion over 10 years, according to the the Congressional Joint Committee on Taxation.

The economic substance doctrine was put into law as little-noticed part of the health care overhaul. We rate this Promise Kept.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promis... /
Broadband map started
Updated: Tuesday, June 29th, 2010 | By Lukas Pleva
It's been over a year and a half since we last reviewed President Barack Obama's campaign pledge to direct the Federal Communications Commission to provide an accurate map of broadband availability. In January 2009, we rated the promise In the Works, since the stimulus bill that Congress was considering at the time included a proposal for a "comprehensive, nationwide broadband inventory map." Obama signed the stimulus into law on Feb. 17, 2010, so we wanted to see how things have unfolded since then.

It turns out that the FCC voted to change the standards for how broadband access is measured back in March 2008. Before then, 200 kilobits per second was considered "high speed." Following the vote, the low end for "basic broadband" is 768 Kbps. The FCC also now requires Internet service providers to report both the data upload and download speeds and the number of subscribers, among other detailed metrics.

The money that comes from the grants will be used for broadband data collection and mapping activities. "Awardees will collect and verify the availability, speed, and location of broadband across the state. This activity is to be conducted on a semi-annual basis in the next two years, with the data to be presented in a clear and accessible format to the public, government, and the research community," according to the NTIA. Ultimately, the government plans to compile all of the state-level data to create and publish a national map of broadband availability by Feb. 17, 2011.

Critics of the program charge that it's too expensive and that the federal government is already distributing grants for broadband expansion projects, despite the map not being scheduled for release until early next year. Still, President Obama promised to direct the creation of a broadband availability map under new standards. Our research shows that the project is well under way. We rate this Promise Kept.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promis... /
Obama signs credit card bill of rights
Updated: Friday, May 22nd, 2009 | By Catharine Richert
On the campaign trail, President Barack Obama promised to clean up the credit card industry by establishing a consumers bill of rights. No more "any time, any reason" rate increases, no more confusing contracts, he said.

Once in office, Obama wasted little time weaving that promise into speeches and town hall meetings, saying that "its time for reform that is built on transparency, accountability, and mutual responsibility values fundamental to the new foundation we seek to build for our economy." On April 23, 2009, he told credit card company executives that he was supporting the consumer credit card bill of rights already inching its way through Congress.

The bill passed and Obama signed it on May 22, 2009, despite worries from the banking industry that it would reduce credit availability during the economic crisis. In large part, the law fulfills Obama's campaign pledge: It prevents creditors from imposing arbitrary rate increases on customers, it prohibits most rate increases meant to penalize consumers for late payments on unrelated accounts, and it requires companies to post credit agreements on the Internet, among other things.

Obama promised voters a credit card bill of rights that prevents arbitrary rate hikes and makes contracts clear, and nearly every line of the new law matches Obama's pledge. Even though the law does not prohibit interest on fees, consumer advocates who have spent years lobbying on the issue say the bill represents a major step forward for consumers. As a result, we give Obama a Promise Kept.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promis... /
Obama announces incentives for small business loans
Updated: Wednesday, March 18th, 2009 | By Angie Drobnic Holan
President Obama gave small business some love when he announced he was expanding programs for the Small Business Administration on March 16, 2009.
"Our recovery in the present and our prosperity in the future depend upon the success of America's small businesses and entrepreneurs," he said.

The Obama administration announced it was increasing the amount it would guarantee to private lenders making loans under Small Business Administration (SBA) programs. Previously, the federal government would guarantee 85 percent for loans at or below $150,000 and up to 75 percent for larger loans. Under the new program, the government will guarantee up to 90 percent of all loans for a limited time.

Obama promised he would expand Small Business Administration loan programs. The SBA does not lend money directly, so these moves have the effect of expanding the program by increasing incentives for private lenders. These efforts are temporary, but Obama specifically said he would be outlining further steps on behalf of small businesses in the weeks and months ahead. For now, the Obameter moves to Promise Kept.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promis... -/
Alternative Minimum Tax patch is in the stimulus bill
Updated: Tuesday, February 17th, 2009 | By Angie Drobnic Holan
During the presidential campaign, Barack Obama and Republican nominee John McCain promised they would extend and index for inflation a "patch" to fix the Alternative Minimum Tax.

Commonly called the AMT, it is a separate income tax that was intended to ensure that wealthy people did not use loopholes to avoid paying taxes. If you reach a certain minimum income level, you have to pay this tax regardless of your deductions and exemptions.

The trouble is that the AMT, unlike the standard system, is not indexed for inflation. More and more people have hit the threshold, and when they do they end up paying higher taxes. Increasingly, the AMT is becoming a burden for the middle class.

During negotiations on the bill that would become The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, the AMT patch was added in the Senate, where the bill needed Republican support to overcome a threat of filibuster. (Three Republican senators ultimately joined Democrats in voting for the bill.)
The AMT patch may not have been as high-profile as some of Obama's other promises, but he made the pledge, and it was in the bill. Promise Kept.

More at the following link: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises /




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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. You're a lone soldier out here. So I had to K*R. n/t
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you.
I don't think I'm totally alone. But I'm happy to embrace my inner woodchuck.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
77. You're not alone. I'm with you.
:hi:
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
102. I'm a woodchuck too. Don't let my avatar fool you. n/t
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. Hi Grunion..way to get some
facts out here on DU. Gracias!
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. He's got 120 accomplishments to date.
119 if you don't count the puppy thing. There is also an additional 38 items passed with compromise on his part.

A truly amazing record for only 18 months in office.
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Born_A_Truman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. Puppy lover here!
Imagine the gnashing of teeth without fulfilling that promise!

K&R!
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. How Dare He?!
Gettin' all facty and stuff....

Isn't it funny how three years ago, if we'd talked about all these legislative accomplishments, DU would have been dancing in the street?

Now people can only piss and moan.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. Socialist
(K&R)
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. I am a socialist
If by socialist you mean someone that wants to improve society. Obama has done an amazing job in improving what it means to be an American. I get sick of all the whining and bashing of our President by those claiming to be Democrats.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. It's a joke
The K&R was your first clue.

Nice post. (That's your second clue.)
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I got the joke, don't worry.
I don't need those "sarcasm smilies". Most of the time. :fistbump:
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
26. So add socialism to the concepts you aren't getting.
Along with the cartoon you're embracing.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
65. And I'll add "passing legislation" and "winning elections"
to the things you aren't getting.
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
7. I gotta ask you a couple of questions
If all these accomplishments are so great, why is Obama being told to stay away from campaigning for congresspersons? Why are said congresspersons being told to not say too much about their accomplishments, but instead talk about how bad things were under W?

see:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-de...



Wouldn't great accomplishments be something to crow about? It is almost like they think that they haven't accomplished much of real value.

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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Because the perception of the general public ist that the legislative record
is "too liberal" for this mostly conservative country. It's why we get doubly frustrated from the left leaning bashers. They have no idea how out of touch with the electorate they truly are.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
109. 80% of those "conservatives" wanted a public option n/t
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #109
113. And a good portion of that 80% thinks they got 'Death Panels'
In no small part to Hamsher's alliance with Norquist
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-10 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #113
121. We don't have them yet, but we will if the Catfood Commission has its way
Hamsher isn't spreading bullshit about death pannels, just factual information about the less than adequate nature of HCR. Are the rest of us drowning people supposed to stand up and cheer as the lifeboat carries some off to safety and leaves the rest of us behind?
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Why does anyone oppose Obama?
Any great leader you can think of has drawn significant numbers of detractors, and many of them were only deemed great well after their time. That some Democrats from conservative districts and states wouldn't want Obama to campaign for them isn't exactly anything noteworthy. It's normal.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. The small accomplishments that Democratic leaders have made...
...are odious to most of the forces that run the country. Congresscritters begging for corporate dollars are going to have to distance themselves from anything that smells of progressivism.

Election time is always weird, but expect it to be weirder this year, with more and more corporate money junking it up.
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
39. Because the President has been demonized by
the right as a "socialist" and by the extreme far-left as a "corporatist." Caught in the middle of this tug-of-war by the extremists is the American public who are easily influenced by the lies and disinformation spread by both sides.
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SoxFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
11. KICK!
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garthranzz Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
100. HOW DO I GET THT PICTURE?


I LOVE IT!

(Can a New Orleans White Sox fan give a shoutout to a Red Sox fan, since we're both DUers?)
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
14. I agree. Only negative people refuse to even consider this list
They will come on making fun of this list, but they are just negative people who can't see good in anything.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
15. Kicked and recommended!
:patriot:
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Oceansaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
16. K&R...n/t
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
17. I keep wondering how the Pragmatism
washes out with the 'faith based' portions of the administration's thinking. The two things are mutually exclusive. So it becomes trying to hear one day that important policy views are based on theological dogmas, invisible beings, and assumptions unprovable, and then the next hear that those faith based people are 'Pragmatists'. Got to pick one, or at least explain how faith in the unseen is Pragmatic, how basing decisions upon faith and dogma is Pragmatic.
In short, I don't think many here have a clue as to what that word means. The Faith Based Pragmatists. Anything that works, except for equal rights, which are dictated by invisible creatures that whisper in the ears of the faithful?
Really, how does that work? Are you guys also Hindus when it helps, then Catholics for the Saint's Festival, or is it just an alternation between Christianity and one of the chief modern heretical teachings opposed to Christianity?
Anyone?
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Personally, I'm Taoist
But just because I'm not a Christian doesn't lead to the conclusion that I'm anti-Christian. Pragmatism and faith are not mutually exclusive.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Ah, yes they are.
Pragmatism says truth and worth are only defined by the results, that is, if it works it is good. That idea does not work well with dogma that can not be proven with results.
I'm not anti Christian at all, in fact I was raised in the tradition, and this is why I know that Pragmatism does not cozy up well with religions that insist upon belief in the unseen.
Here is a bit from Christianity.com, by RC Sproul. This is basically what actual church folk have to say about Pragmatism. Just to give you an idea of what the word means when removed from this political/Obama/Woodchuck arena:

"What is pragmatism? Pragmatism is the only philosophy native to America. Pragmatism eschews any hope of discovering ultimate truth. It is skeptical with respect to objective principles of righteousness and defines truth as that which works. In this philosophy, the end always justifies the means. The driving force behind decisions within the scope of pragmatism is the force of expediency.

We remember in the days of the trial of Jesus of Nazareth, two of the important players were Caiaphas and Pontius Pilate. Both men made their decisions to have Jesus executed on the basis of expediency (Mark 15:15; John 11:4553). Caiaphas and Pontius Pilate were pragmatists with a vengeance."

I was asking an actual question, and your response showed that what I say is true. Pragmatic Faith Based types are a tad confused about the meanings of all of those words. I think this is above the pay grade of the way y'all are using the words. Just to be clear, in my Christian education, Pragmatism was presented as a heresy. Simply declaring that they are compatible will not make them so. Pragmatism was not invented to describe the politics of Obama, it is an actual word with an actual meaning. And a Pragmatist can not declare a thing to be true 'because I just think so' which is what the anti-equality faith folk do.
I personally think it is a bad choice to try to use both of those words. To me, those who claim both of them just sound crazy, like a person saying 'I'm short and tall' or whatever.
I note that you did not counter my points, save for saying 'is not'. Very much not a Pragmatic response, but it is faith based.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. I'm adding a clarification
I'd say a person could have 'faith' while being a Pragmatist, but they could not have 'belief'. They are not the same thing. I can have faith that the train will be on time. I do not have to believe in the train for it to show up, for it is demonstrably real. It is a train. And that can be proven.
Faith and dogma are not the same thing. Faith can not be proven, it is an inner experience. Only the person knows if they have faith. A Pragmatist would not accept the faith as true without proof. And so on.
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Steely_Dan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
20. We Are Talking Past Each Other
These accomplishments are great. I ACKNOWLEDGE them and cheer them. I give credit where credit is due.

But you are missing the point.

It is NOT as much a matter of what he has accomplished or not accomplished. It is more a matter of his adherence to long-held Democratic tenets.

I think the over the top criticism...the passion in which people express their anger is based on so many things that have been repeated over and over again with specific examples. What stands out for me (and many others here) and I believe fuels their anger is that we feel betrayed. We have lived our entire lives fighting for long held tenets of our party. We have championed the causes that put people first and not the corporate elite. To stand by and watch a supposed Democrat NOT fight for the very basic tenets of our party is to many, an act of betrayal. This feeling of betrayal is particularly hurtful to those who sacrificed so much to help him attain the Presidency. Did they have unrealistic expectations of Mr. Obama? Probably. But who would deny that at least some of these expectations were authored by Obama himself. Hope, change we can believe in, etc. etc.

I think that President Obama is a good man. He is sincere and means well.

If he in fact believes in the tenets of our party, than I can only conclude he lacks the leadership skills to see them through. If he does not believe in the basic tenets of our party...well, that speaks for itself.

Today's Progressive is yesterday's Democrat...

As I have posted before...

I will try and be patient. I will try and understand that what I thought would happen with Healthcare didn't happen, but someday it will. I'll try and understand for now, that it is still okay to listen in on my telephone conversations. I'll try and put behind me the fact that we committed horrible war crimes and no one was brought to justice. I'll give it go to accept that banks received bailout money with little or no regulation to insure that the money (at least a crumb or two) would make it to the people. I'll try and accept my new role on the "radical left" when it wasn't that long ago, I was considered just a Democrat. I'll try and give my "new" Democratic friends the time they need to show that they have not abandoned the essential planks that have served the Democratic Party for decades and made us the Party of the People.

-P
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. "than I can only conclude he lacks the leadership skills to see them through"
Except no one in history has ever had the leadership to see the totality of his/her agenda seen through. Not even dictators or monarchs.
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Herr Garbitsch Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
68. Otto von Bismarck, of all people, passed the first worker's compensation statute.
So the corollary to your assertion is that even the most repressive dictators have made concessions.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
74. +1
well said
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felix_numinous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
22. So you have truly gone underground
:) I believe that it is possible to support President Obama AND keep pushing for progress.

We have to keep in mind that divisiveness feeds the extreme RW. They want everyone to see the world in an either/or scenario, by framing all news and commentary in binary false choice scenarios. It is the 'sucker's choice' (got that from Critical Conversations, a book I am reading). So many people falsely believe you are either for Obama or you are against him, when the world is is much more complex than that.

I like to think of myself as keeping a strong eye on the horizon, while supporting the best way to get there from here.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
25. How appropriate to kick off the new Woodchuck Initiative with the Politifact list
We wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that you're embracing original thought.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
41. Facts don't need to be original.
They simply exist. Everyone knows that facts have a well known pragmatic liberal bias.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. They apparently don't need to be thought about either
You can post as many "facts" as you want about minimal accomplishments, what Obama had for breakfast, etc. It won't change the large truth that you wish to distract from: that Obama is blowing opportunity after opportunity for enacting major change in this country.

You know, the kind of "change" that he promised in the campaign?

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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Then start thinking more about the facts
The change that Obama has already enacted is transformative to this country. You simply refuse to see the bigger picture that he has already enacted massive change to this country.

Health Care Reform, as pushed for and passed by President Obama WILL lead to single payer healthcare one day. That's why the Repukes worked there asses off (along with Jane Hamsher) to kill it at any cost.

The simple fact that you either can't see the or refuse to acknowledge the future caused by President Obama's legislative victories is a failing in you, not President Obama.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Yeah, I'm gonna call bullshit on that
Health Care Reform, as pushed for and passed by President Obama WILL lead to single payer healthcare one day. That's why the Repukes worked there asses off (along with Jane Hamsher) to kill it at any cost.

Total insanity. By your reasoning, Bush's 8 years in office could also be a tricky strategy to lead to single payer, since he also completely failed to deal honestly with the healthcare crisis. If you want change, you enact change. You don't make deals with lobbyists and kick the can down the road. That's not an accomplishment.

Your left-baiting comment on Jane Hamsher just shows how detached you are from reality. Why don't you actually read what she writes instead of parroting talking points?


The simple fact that you either can't see the or refuse to acknowledge the future caused by President Obama's legislative victories is a failing in you, not President Obama.

What legislative victories? I thought, according to you, that the President was powerless to affect Congress. Maybe you should be acknowledging Nancy Pelosi's and Harry Reid's legislative victories.

And even if you insist on giving Obama all credit for "legislative victories" and zero blame for legislative failures, you still can't give a single detail on how Obama has transformed the country. Platitudes won't cut it. Show exactly how Obama's actions have directly led to improvements in the lives of most Americans. (For extra credit, show where his actions are *more* transformative than those of any random centrist Democrat.)

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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. You do know that Canadian single payer started out almost
identical to the plan Obama has created, don't you? Much like the HCR bill gives the states the right to form their own plans, the Canadian system did the same thing.

By making health coverage mandatory, it will force the country to find the least expensive way to achieve that goal. That least expensive way is single-payer healthcare.

Only Saskatchewan originally had single payer in Canada until the other provinces saw it was the best way to save on health care costs. A few states will start single payer systems at first and then everyone will get on board. That is a historically accurate look at where Obama's healthcare reform will lead this country.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Wrong again, Bob
The Canada Health Act, passed in 1984, required insurance to be "administered and operated on a non-profit basis by a public authority, responsible to the provincial/territorial governments and subject to audits of their accounts and financial transactions." How is that anything like Obama's insurance bailout plan?

Canada only enacted Single Payer after Saskatchewan showed how beneficial it was. The national plan only contributed to the change as a counter-example. Which, of course, is why Obama was hoping to permanently block any state from enacting SIngle-Payer. http://www.correntewire.com/sebelius_says_obama_working...


Seriously, read a book or two. The talking points you're being fed are nonsense.

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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. Nice find from a year old blog, can you find anything
in the actual FUCKING bill that says that?

Stop chomping down on the Purina Nonsense Chow.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Deny, deny, deny
I hope you have some friends around for support when you finally wake up. It's gonna be rough.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Which means: "No, I couldn't find anything"
You can apologize to me anytime now.

I'll wait patiently.











:crickets:





:sigh:
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Seriously, you're not fooling anyone
Except maybe yourself...


Let's review, shall we?

You tried to bluff your way through a discussion of the Canadian healthcare system. When I provided actual information, you ignored it -- probably because you knew it made you look extremely silly.

Then you seized on the AGE of a post, FFS, rather than the facts that were widely reported at the time. Then you ask me to name something that's not currently in the bill, mostly because the Left screamed bloody murder when Obama floated the trial balloon.

Now, in true denialist fashion, you want to pretend you won the argument because I can't produce proof of something I never claimed to be true. Honestly, I'm getting dizzy just watching you spin.


But if it makes you happy, I will apologize to you: I'm terribly sorry that our educational system has clearly failed you completely. I've done my best to remediate in some small part, but you need more help than I can provide. Again, I apologize for that.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Wait! Is that an admission that something the left wanted influenced HCR?
It is! It is!

My point on Canadian Health Care was that it was never universal single payer in the beginning and neither is Obama's HCR bill. I am factually right.

Obama's HCR bill allows the states to choose how they achieve the goals of mandatory coverage, just lkike the Canadian system. I am factually right.

I stated that we would follow the same system that Canada did to achieving single payer because it is the best and most cost effective system. That's my opinion, but you never supported my contention that single payer is the best and most cost effective system for health care. That seems odd.

Finally, the left has insisted repeatedly that they had no voice or influence in the health care debate. But you demonstrate right there that the left was able to get a method to achieving single payer healthcare in the bill that passed.

The denialist fashionista around here can be best found by you looking in the mirror.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Jesus, how does someone perform a u-turn that quickly?
Your claim: "You do know that Canadian single payer started out almost identical to the plan Obama has created."

Now you claim your point was simply that neither plan was Single Payer. Also, neither plan was a plate of bangers and mash, so I guess that proves that they were "almost identical". :eyes:


Is there some Sylvan Learning Center course on bad-faith debating techniques? If so, you clearly got an A.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. Clearly, I'm not committed to fighting by your rules.
Perhaps you'll catch on that there is a reason that us sensible liberals have actually accomplished stuff over the last 30 years and the "far left" has accomplished nothing.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Yeah, those rules of logic and intellectual honesty can be rough.
I understand why you'd want to avoid them.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. I'd much rather aggravate you until you admit something you don't want to
Like Obama's HCR bill allowing a path to single payer.

I understand why you'd want to avoid admitting you said that. It means all the crap you've posted about Obama's health care bill was completely wrong.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. Once again, you appear to be confusing me with one of the voices in your head
Obama's bill allows AT BEST exactly as much of a path to single payer as there was before his bill. At worst it's now quite a bit more difficult, given the spin that HCR is a done deal and considering the "health care fatigue" in the media.

I guarantee, no federal official will address single payer until after Obama's term, so he's effectively delayed any possibility of national single payer for at least the next 6 years.

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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. And you appear to be confusing me with someone that gives a shit
about your opinion of me. For me it's all about those bashing the president for no reason.

Health care coverage is now mandatory. As the provisions kick in over the next couple of years, politicians will have to address how they reach mandated coverage.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Well, it's obvious that I'm confusing you
Sorry about all the troubling facts and logic. The internets can be hard sometime.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. ...
"Is there some Sylvan Learning Center course on bad-faith debating techniques?"

Lol!
I don't know why but that made me picture WG writing a book like the Anarchist's Cookbook, but it gives recipes for rhetorical bombs and teaches the dark art of internet-fu.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #44
110. The point of health care "reform" was to permanently prevent single payer
That's why there was no public option, despite its being favored by 80% of the public. And what was the point of preventing states from enacting single payer until after 2017?
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felix_numinous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
91. delete wrong place in the thread
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 05:46 PM by felix_numinous
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felix_numinous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
92. Wow I am new here
and your response sounds like you do not wish to have a dialogue with me. The sarcasm is unnecessary, as is the word politifact. I am still trying to understand the woodchuck icon usage.

I actually agree with you in supporting Obama, what I do not like is the ridiculing of how some people passionately express themselves here. I do not have to explain myself to you, my english is plain enough.

What I do see is a lot of hostility, and I do not understand where it is coming from.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
27. Good job! 'chuck the haters!! nt
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
28. Go for it!
After all, if the shoe fits!

:rofl:
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
46. I proudly wear that shoe
Pragmatic liberalism has enacted liberal legislation that would have caused a group spooge-fest five years ago throughout Democratic Underground. You guys keep moving the goalposts because you liked it when you could scream for no reason at the American government under Bush and are pissed off that change has occurred that satisfies many Americans.

Face it, most of us aren't anarchist radical anti-government types here.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #46
94. Yep- the proud bit is very telling
one of those things we see from the other side of the aisle a LOT.

Proud ignorance, us v. them and following behavior rather than attention to policy and their affects on the nation and its people.

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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
29. So *that's* what the furry guy is
I suddenly noticed a surge in his presence, and an interesting pattern in those who adopted it. I guess I wasn't wrong about my theory.

;)
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
30. 
and there will be more to add on that list soon!

:applause:
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VMI Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
31. The Woodchuck Initiative. Promise kept: Marriage still between a man and woman.
Promise kept: Escalation of Obama's War.

:hi:
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
47. Actually, Obama promised to overturn DOMA
That promise is rated:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promis... /

To recap: The president is making some headway on his promise. He has extended federal benefits to the extent permitted by law, has repeatedly called for DOMA's repeal, and has directed the majority of U.S. hospitals to allow gay and lesbian individuals to visit their partners. On the other hand, Congress has yet to pass either of the bills that Obama needs in order to repeal DOMA and to extend the rest of the federal benefits. His Department of Justice is also fighting Massachusetts to uphold DOMA. We'll keep our eyes open for new developments, but for now, we're moving this promise from Stalled to In the Works.

If you're talking about Afghanistan, Obama DID promise to expand troop involvement over there. If that surprised you that he kept that promise than you possess a "special" brand of willful ignorance.
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Smashcut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. HAHAHAHA
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 02:21 PM by Smashcut
You mean "overturning" it by saying nothing about it publicly while his DOJ defends it using heinously homophobic arguments?

If that's what this website considers "in the works" then their entire assessment is bunk.

And Obama's position on equal marriage is actually AGAINST, meaning he still supports discrimination against GLBT people.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-10 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #55
122. So you are saying the facts listed in the recap are not true? n/t
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
32. K&R for Progress
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
33. K&R
Maybe I'll take back the avatar, too.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. I think we should make it a movement here at DU to take back the avatar.
I say piss on the tree those other woodchuck avatars love.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Well, I don't know about that, but woodchucks (or groundhogs)
are sorta cute. I'm proud to have one as my avatar.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
35. A celebration of you.


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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
51. Tom Tomorrow is a fucking douche bag
I can say that because he isn't a liberal politician or a member of DU.

He, like many others in the liberal blogosphere cannot see the long term implications of the policies that President Obama has passed to transform this country into a more perfect union.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. It's a wonder to behold
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. All but one of those cartoons have less than 15 responses.
I think you vastly over-estimate Tom's popularity here at DU.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #63
93. But none of those responses have DUers
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 06:12 PM by LWolf
trashing Tom Tomorrow for being too far left.

Instead, he enjoys strong support from all.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #63
116. And which of those cartoons supports your claim that TT is a "douchebag?"
All? Some? None but the most recent? Yargle?
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #51
98. Is this more of Obama's 259th dimensional chess?
cause i'm not buying that shit anymore. real change. now. obama aint it. Dem challenger for 2012!
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #51
105. Tom Tomorrow is a fucking douchebag?
No wonder you don't get it.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #105
108. they have nothing left
they have to keep digging
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Smashcut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
36. OMG A NEW LISSSSST!!!!!!1111!
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Not a new list at all. It's an ongoing list that started the day he took office.
And it's honest about the fact that President Obama has actually accomplished the things he said he would do.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. And this time in color! With a green bar!
:woohoo:
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. Did you follow the link to the fact based assessment of the good job
our President is doing in this country? Or do you just get fed talking points from the whiny liberal blogosphere?
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. I don't get fed anything,
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 02:32 PM by Touchdown
and I like poking sticks at the evangelical authoritarians who cherry pick only the things they agree with and call them "fact based".

Are those bars not green? Or is telling colors now a "talking point from the whiny left"?
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-10 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #57
123. Really? I like Sushi and Vietnamese myself. You must be awfully hungry n/t
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
60. Here's another one:
"It turns out that a lot of things that have happened in the less than two years of this administration are the biggest or first or most important in generations. Wall Street reform agreementhealth reformthe stimulus bill. It didn`t just throw a lasso around our entire economy and yank and yank it back from the brink. It also pumped about $100 billion into the crumbling embarrassment of our national infrastructure and transportation systemTax incentives for renewable and clean energyunheralded but giant investment in science and techalso expanded state kids` health insurance to cover another four million kidsthe Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Acta nuclear arms deal with Russia that would reduce both countries` arsenals by a thirdan international way forward on that radical left-wing proposition of Ronald Reagan, a world without nuclear weaponsThe Hate Crimes Prevention Act, also known as the Matthew Shepard Actdismantled the scandal-plagued Minerals Management Serviceoverhauled the astonishing stupidity of the student loan systemThe last time any president did this much in office, booze was illegal. If you believe in policy, if you believe in government that addresses problems, cheers to that." -RACHEL MADDOW
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
37. Oh my fucking God. nt
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. Ain't it.
And again, DU's lack of a facepalm smiley becomes an issue.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
85. See that's where we differ
I bemoan DU's lack of a middle finger smiley.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
42. K & R
:thumbsup:
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Ryano42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
54. Totally Chuckin' It!!!!
Pragmatic and Proud of it!

:P
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great white snark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
58. KICK for the unbastardized definition of pragmatic.
:toast:
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #58
69. yezzziree nt
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Ryano42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
61. Something very important to remember: "Only a fool fights in a burning house"
- Klingon Commander Kang



We have so much to gain if we work together...not everything but many things.

If we fight and divide...NOTHING will change and things will go back to Bushco's wildest dreams and more.
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Exactly, there is a HUGE difference between the Democratic and
Repuke parties. Those that don't see it and wish to call other Democrats sellouts or corporatists need to get some perspective.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #70
78. You misunderstand me. I'm not crusading against the fight...
I'm embracing it. You could use a healthy dose of self awareness as well. After all the far left can't win any elections or pass any legislation for the past 3 decades.

What is the word for whiny ineffectual types that can't win anything?
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great white snark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #78
83. "What is the word for whiny ineffectual types that can't win anything?"
Kucinich?

:hide:
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Hey! None of that! Kucinich is one of us.
He pragmatically supports President Obama on almost everything. Certainly more than Ben Nelson does.
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great white snark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. True.
But it was fun watching the left of the left throw him under the bus for voting yes on HCR.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #83
99. Ah yes, I love to be on the side that slams intellectuals like Dennis Kucinich
i think i'll just write in Kucinch in 2012 rather than join yall in your GD:P Obama cult. don't think the rest of us at DU don't notice that is the ONLY place all these rah-rah Obama posts are coming from these days. he lost me a long time ago. i only hope someone runs in a primary against him.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
73. He's Done More Progressive Things Than The Left Has Done In 30 Years
Yet, it's the Left that bitches and moans the loudest.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
75. You have inspired me. I am changing my avatar.
I am a Progressive/Liberal/Leftist. But I am also Pragmatic. And I also support Obama. I am not a Centrist as many people here try to broadbrush all Obama supporters. I am a PROUD Woodchuck.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
90. Great!
you have nothing to worry about in November!
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
95. ALL will be assimilated...
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. So none of the legislation I listed in the OP was a good idea to you?
Or are you allergic to good posts about the President?
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Resistance is futile..
His "wins" are not quality, the changes are minimal, people still can't get jobs, we're wasting tons of $$$ in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as killing people and getting killed in a "war" that's gone on longer than Vietnam and the only real win is for the war profiteers, we never even got a CHOICE for single-payer health care, and he's done a great job of covering up the crimes of the Bush/Cheney admin. Yeah Obama may be a great CEO of America, but he's a shitty president in my book. We had such potential for TRUE change in this country after 8 hellish years of Bush - but we did not get it. Not even close.



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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #97
111. Exactly Slay, it is most frustrating. nt
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #97
114. Longer than Vietnam? Check your facts.
US Military started to arrive in Vietnam in 1950 (as "advisers"). We didn't leave until 1975. That's 25 years.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. 
Americas War in Afghanistan Now Officially Longer than Vietnam
by Bill Bradley
June 7, 2010, 2:40 PM


As of today, June 7, 2010, the war in Afghanistan has lasted 104 months, surpassing Vietnam as the longest war in American history. American forces invaded Afghanistan in October 2001, Kabul fell that November, and Americas attention shifted to the war in Iraq. It wasnt until after the 2007 troop surge in Iraq and, after that, the 2008 election that America refocused its attention on Afghanistan, but our troops were there all along.

In December 2009, President Obama committed another 30,000 troops to the region.

more facts for you: http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2010/06/americas...
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #117
120. Did you read the update at the bottom
Vanity Fair (falsely) used the assumption that the Vietnam War began with the 1964 Gulf Of Tonkin Resolution. We had "military advisers in Vietnam since 1950, a full 14 years before the incorrect headline assumed for the start of Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Assistance_and_Ad...

In September 1950, US President Harry Truman sent the Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) to Vietnam to assist the French in the First Indochina war. The President claimed they were not sent as combat troops, but to supervise the use of $10 million worth of US military equipment to support the French in their effort to fight the Viet Minh forces.

The French Army however, was reluctant to take U.S. advice, and would not allow the Vietnamese army to be trained to use the new equipment, because it went against French policy. They were supposed to not only defeat enemy forces but to solidify themselves as a colonial power, and they could not do this with a Vietnamese Army. French commanders were so reluctant to accept advice that would weaken their time-honored colonial role that they got in the way of the various attempts by the MAAG to observe where the equipment was being sent and how it was being used. Eventually the French decided to cooperate, but at that point it was too late.

In 1954 the commanding general of French forces in Indochina, General Henri Navarre, allowed the United States to send liaison officers to Vietnamese forces. But it was too late, because of the siege and fall of Dien Bien Phu in the spring. As stated by the Geneva Accords, France was forced to surrender the northern half of Vietnam and to withdraw from South Vietnam by April 1956.

On 1955-02-12 at a conference in Washington, D.C., between officials of the U.S. State Department and the French Minister of Overseas Affairs, it was agreed that all U.S. aid would be funneled directly to South Vietnam and that all major military responsibilities would be transferred from the French to the MAAG under the command of Lieutenant General John O'Daniel. A problem arose however, because the French Expeditionary Force had to be departed from South Vietnam in April 1956 as directed by the Accords. To fill the void of lost French soldiers, the MAAG mission was increased to 740 men by the end of June.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-10 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #120
124. We can argue advisors if you want - but the point is we've been there too long!
and with no good reason - just THROWING money to the pentagon and the war profiteers and murderers. i'm sick of the whole thing. end it now, save tons of $$$, American lives, and say fuck you to the pentagon - and no more wars!

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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #96
112. The increments are so small I can barely see them.
Seriously, this guy came in on a landslide, with many repubs crossing over to vote for him. He's got both houses of Congress. Most expected he would make some serious changes (ala FDR) and we are still waiting.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #112
119. Powder: Still dry.
America: Still waiting for our mandate to be put into action.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
101. Kick and Rec with Dem Rockettes
:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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BklnDem75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
103. K&R
Cool idea
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
104. My avatar cheers on your avatar
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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
106. Go for it.
By proudly sporting the "Chuckles" avatar you remove all the confusing irony. It just makes more sense and makes the joke even funnier as well!

Carry on Chuckles . . .
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WonderGrunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #106
115. Carry on yourself smoking guy with "Breakfast Club" hair
Carry on good sir.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. That's Ricky
and he'd either get your woodchuck real high or shoot it. I vote for number....

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-10 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
107. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
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