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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 03:20 PM
Original message
Miami Herald scrubbing again. Delicious!
They have an editorial up berating Chavez for tossing those two from HRW:

Venezuela closes door on rights scrutiny
OUR OPINION: Expulsions underscore Chávez's intolerance for dissent
Posted on Tue, Sep. 23, 2008


The abrupt expulsion of two respected human-rights monitors from Venezuela last week is the latest evidence that President Hugo Chávez is determined to muzzle dissenting views. José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch, and deputy director Daniel Wilkinson were seized at their hotel and forcibly expelled ''as if we were common criminals,'' Mr. Vivanco said later.

The organization had just issued a 230-page report detailing the accelerating loss of political freedom under Mr. Chávez during his almost 10 years in office, including actions intended to intimidate the media and undermine freedom of expression. Nothing could have proved the point so aptly as expelling representatives of an organization dedicated to promoting and expanding human rights.

And so far, they have posted THREE comments, ALL IN AGREEMENT. Mine, of course, did not make the cut.



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Isn't that astonishing? They are claiming someone else suppresses dissent.
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 05:07 PM by Judi Lynn
I just went there and left a post, too.

There are still only 3 anti-leftist posts, and mine, temporarily. It'll be gone as soon as they see it. It's short:

It's astonishing you're attempting to run this article as a "news" article. Anyone who has been keeping track of Latin America events knows how wildly spun it is.

Don't you ever worry about your credibility? You're seriously misreprensenting the truth.


Thought if I kept it really short they might not notice it.

If it does any good, vote the 3 only one "star," to show dissent to their posts.

Miami Herald is goddawful. You'd think they'd do something, just ANYTHING right every now and then, but it's ALL hard right with these scums. EVERYTHING is tailor-made to appeal to hard-right tastes, and to sustain their fascist world-view. Damned pathetic.



Remember these guys? Miami scenery chewing, publicity craving "exiles"



Elián's chubby Cuban cousin and his Cuban
pals brought up to Washington to see him.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. MIne was never even posted and it was well within their TOS.
lol

That's okay. I submitted a Diary to OpEdNews. Let everyone see how adverse they are to dissent.:evilgrin:
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Can't wait 'til they run it. These guys need to be exposed. Just looked back there,
and yours wasn't put back.

I remember this has happened at least once before, too.

They have refused to run one I've written, too.

They don't want to upset the fascists too much. The three from Miami they ran are seriously ignorant.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It's not a "discussion" if they choose the posts, is it?
So hilarious.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. I think it's hilarious that Chavez threw Vivanco out of the country "like a common
criminal." Cuz that guy is an uncommon criminal if there ever was one, who can issue a 300 page report about, um, nothing--Chavez daring to criticize the opposition--while all hell breaks loose in Bolivia, with 15-30 unarmed peasant farmers machine-gunned by Bushwhack-funded white separatists, and blowing up pipelines and destroying NGO and government buildings, and five different South American presidents warning of Bushwhack plots of various kinds--Paraguay (assassination plot), Venezuela (assassination plot), Bolivia (coup d'etat), Brazil (threat of the U.S. 4th Fleet against Brazil's Atlantic oil fields), Ecuador (recently warned of Bushwhack 3-country civil war strategy--Bolivia, Ecuador, Venezuela.)

It takes an uncommon whore to issue such a report, at such a moment, and an uncommon criminal to ignore the rampant Bushwhack threat against South American democracy and human progress.

HRW from now on, in my book, is in the same category as the Associated Pukes, Rotters and the Miami Gunbarrel: the drainpipes for Corpo/fascist psyops, disinformation and outright garbage.

Vivanco is a Bushwhack operative just as surely as Philip Goldberg is. In South America, they got what they deserved--expelled. I wish it were that easy to rid ourselves of the traitors and malefactors here, running (that is, destroying) our government. Exile is the least they deserve.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'd like to suggest a somewhat different take on the HRW report
It is important to recognize that the human rights organizations generally have not concentrated on the full spectrum on human rights, which ranges from basic food and shelter needs to rights such as the right to irritate governmental authorities without any reprisal. I suspect many posters on this board recognize in principle the full spectrum, though people are always most sensitive to what they can understand from their own experience: those, whose food and shelter needs have always been met, may not immediately remember that most of the world suffers from limited access to necessities. The United States, for example, has not typically ratified international human rights conventions recognizing primary ecoconomic needs. I have followed HRW for many years, and with few exceptions it fits this pattern: there was a beautiful HRW study in the 1990s on the relation between famine and political power, but it was unusual. The same could, of course, be said about AI, which originally focussed entirely on the civil and political rights issues guaranteed by standard international conventions. This limitation does not mean that such rights groups are worthless; it does mean that they have a limited framework for analysis, within which they generally do a decent job

The credibility of the human rights groups depends on their ability to obtain and convey accurate and reliable information, without becoming embroiled in political considerations. As a rule, they cannot be expected to analyze events from the perspective of who-was-justified-in-doing-what but must merely discuss the violations of reasonable and accepted standards, without attempting to decide whether the violations were in some sense understandable. On any objective point of view, the rights organizations have no alternative to such an attitude: if they fail to adopt it, they will be dismissed as partial and biased. The consequences, of being regarded as partial and biased by the leaders of countries where violent repression is rampant, can be very serious indeed. At times, human rights work in El Salvador or Guatemala was nearly impossible, and it has been very difficult in recent years in Colombia: the worst case scenario, where international human rights workers or their local contacts are obviously murdered or simply disappear, has been common enough that the rights organizations cannot afford to ignore the possibility. The following paradox can result from differing ground situations: a report on a country, in the brutal throes of a human rights crisis can be very short and may contain relatively few details, simply because a careful investigation is completely impossible; whereas a much longer and more detailed report may be possible in the case of a country where the situation is much better. I had precisely this debate concerning reports on Nicaragua and El Salvador in the mid-1980s: at one point, Americas Watch had produced a long report on Nicaragua and several much shorter reports on El Salvador; it was completely inappropriate simply to count pages, since to understand what was being said one needed to read the reports. If you have been reading the news, you know (say) that Colombian officials have regularly accused human rights workers of siding with the guerrilla opposition, and you understand that such accusations are essentially death threats which limit the ability of human rights professionals to do their work freely; information will be limited, and criticism must be handled carefully to have any prospect of success. The full significance, of a long and detailed report detailing carefully the accusations of the Venezuelan opposition and comparing the situation on the ground to international standards, may therefore be difficult to parse: it might have the effect of sending a political message to Colombia that HRW is not associated with any particular political ideology; if you read the report in its entirety, it may also appear that HRW largely (though perhaps not entirely) reported petty abuses of power

There remains the question of the uses to which the HRW report might be put. Insofar as the report acknowledges that Venezuela has a vibrant political culture, one hopes that the Venezuelans themselves examine the report carefully and draw appropriate conclusions about how to improve their own civil and political culture. There is, of course, not a country in the world that respects civil and political rights as fully as suggested by existing international standards. Certainly, there are political factions in the United States that will attempt to use such a report to justify some US intervention -- but those factions were advocating intervention before the report was issued, and they would have continued to advocate intervention regardless of the content of the report. A careful reading of the report, with one eye on the United States, will suggest to many of us that the US itself does not meet many of the international standards cited therein: but that observation, though relevant when dealing with the interventionists, could not have been included in the report, simply because it did not belong there. It is not the task of the human rights organizations to compare or rank the failures of different countries: those are political triage questions, which inevitably are contaminated by other issues such as political ideology or nationalist sentiment. For the same reason, discussion of Bolivia or Paraguay or Ecuador, or of foreign relations issues between these countries and the United States, simply does not belong in the HRW Venezuela report

I suspect that if you examine the available HRW publications, you will find a significant amount of useful information regarding historical and current human rights conditions in much of the world. You will typically not find the political analysis you want. But if the organization attempted to provide political analysis, the human rights information would have become impossible to obtain. So I suggest that you should consider HRW as one reliable and useful source, for the information that it attempts to provide, and that (instead of criticizing the organization for not doing everything) you look elsewhere for the political and economic analyses that may help complete the picture




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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. My criticism of HRW is exactly that it allowed Vivanco to use his office
in service of a political agenda, not for not doing "everything" but for what they did do in Venezuela. This one report is only the latest from Vivanco. Every time there is a crisis or a vote, he pops up in the press where he should not be. As you note above, his behavior has now made it impossible for HRW to operate in Venezuela.

When I first was looking into HRW operations in Venezuela, I was looking for error or misinterpretation or simply difference of opinion to understand their behavior. When that didn't pan out, I tried to see if it was just this one person -- someone off his leash, that happens in every group or organization. That's how groups are. And as far as I can tell, that seems to be true here to a great extent.

But, HRW is responsible for retaining Vivanco in a high ranking position of great sensitivity when he has shown over and over again that he is unsuited for it. Not to mention, his deputy openly criticizes Chavez and his politics in the American press.

So, it's not that I expect political analysis from HRW. It's that I don't expect political analysis from them. They have lost any claim to objectivity and more than that, these two men and the leadership that defends them have eroded if not lost the trust of their hosts in Latin America. This was not just a small flap in Caracas; this event was watched in many capitols, I promise you.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. what was the crisis or vote? HRW does what it does, assesses human rights issues
just because you don't like what they say about Chavez doesn't mean they should stop reporting on Venezuela.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 05:10 AM
Response to Original message
7. Just gave it a final check. They simply pitched it out. That's CENSORSHIP.
Won't be the last time they do it, either. It's the way they run their paper, unfortunately. Very dishonest, unprofessional.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I have to wonder how many pro-Chavez responses they got
if they had to go to the trouble of filtering them.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Minus 7.
No self respecting Chavista would waste their time. ;)

:hi:


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Minus two that we know of, anyway.
lol
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