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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 01:33 PM
Original message
The trend to the left (communism) is destroying the Latin Americas and Caribbean.
After all, the Latin Americas and Caribbean were doing great under US rule.

Proof? Evidence? Just go to AP, CNN, Heritage, AIE, IRI, AI, HRW, Faux. What more do you need?

;)


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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. You know, why go to outside sources for right-wing spin? It seems to come to us,
even though everyone knows this place is designed specicifically for Democrats, as in liberals, progressives.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. It always helps to know the other player's cards.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. But, it's what's up their sleeves that the usual sources don't cover.
I forgot to put the Miami Hairball in my thread opener as a prime example.



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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think that you are very strange liberals
You are very sectarian

Get bitter when someone expresses his opinion and you don't like it

Don't talk with people who don't agree with you

Say fascist to venezuelan people who dislike their president and you pretend that you know better their reality with clichés and arrogance

Insinuate that they are agents

Take your information about a country that you have never been to from sites that put the face of Chavez in their frontpage (venezuelananalysis) and sell it like it is independent and objective

Take every critic to Chavez like a personnal offense

Act like you own this site

Say that human rights foundation is the instrument of your enemies, just like Micheletti and Uribe

Picture a world where if people are not with you, they are against you

I don't understand why you say that you are liberals, progressives and democrats, but I really understand very well why you like Chavez.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Ironical much?
:rofl:



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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thanks for giving a demonstration of what I was describing
like you just did
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. You're welcome.
I usually stick with the Cuba discussions on DU. It's a topic I know of. I know the place and the people well. That's because I've been there quite a few times and have friends there. They come and visit me when I'm in Canada. I plan on going back to Cuba soon too, as soon as I find out the impact it could have on my residency status in the US under an Obama regime. I'm based in Miami (so you can venture a guess that I have mucho contact with the disgustingly hateful RW virulently anti/Chavez/Morales/Castro/Aristide/Lula/Correa, etc etc crowd here, and there's plenty of them), and I reside some of the year in freedom - Ontario, Canada - where I have many Cuban friends there who come and go to Cuba frequently as do their families.

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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. The US policy against Cuba is a shame
it has been a shame for 50 years. And it is crazy that you can have problems with your residency just because you go there.

I think your scepticism about me comes from the fact that north american democracies are 2 parties democracies. The right wing supports the republicans from the nazi to the centrists and the left wing supports the democrats, from the center to the 3 or 4 maoists that exist there:) I know, I am simplifying a lot.

So when you hear a venezuelan here who is fed up with Chavez, you immediately think "Right wing", cubans from Miami (even venezuelans now), republican latinos, etc.

Venezuela is a bit more like Europe for the left wing (except UK). The left is divided in many parties, even if Chavez wants to give a different simplistic image. Bandera Roja (hardcore left, vanguardia), Podemos (socialists), MAS, AD (socialdemocratas), Radicals, they are all in the opposition. PSUV, PPT and PCV (communist party) are in the "oficialismo". PPT and PCV subsist in spite of Chavez threatening them every time and asking for the single leftist party. This, for me, is anti-left. So I don't consider him as a progressive or a liberal.

Concerning what you call right wing, I only see COPEI (democratacristianos who call themselves socialcristianos which is revealing of the traditional moderate leftist climate) and COPEI's children parties. Chavez family was militant of COPEI.

So, in resume, I am leftist, I wish Venezuela had a president like Lula, I don't like Castro nowadays because 1) I have also many cuban friends (not in Miami, not political refugees) and I know that the cuban society is a hard one to live in and not just because of the Embargo and 2) he destroyed the possibility of a plural left, Morales is interesting and important in a country like Bolivia which is very divided from an ethnical point of view and has an active oligarchy of landowners (the exact opposite of Venezuela where the real oligarchs are the ones who control the oil state), Aristide and Correa, I really don't know much.

But I am really surprised and sad about the hardcore scorn and paranoia treatment that some people in this forum have given to me when I criticized Chavez, who has become like an idol to them. It's like what I say has no value, because they are totally sure about what they think of the reality in Venezuela. How can they have absolutely no doubts?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Human Rights Foundation is a right wing front group.

Armando Valladares’ CIA organization linked to plot against Evo Morales

Jean-Guy Allard

• THE Bolivian district attorney’s office has identified Hugo Achá Melgar who, according to the AFP news agency, is Bolivia’s representative to the U.S. Human Rights Foundation (HRF), as providing the bulk of the funds for the terrorist gang foiled in Santa Cruz while plotting to assassinate President Evo Morales.

The HRF is a New York-based nongovernmental organization known for its activities of interference and CIA links. Its general secretary, Armando Valladares is a terrorist of Cuban origin. District Attorney Marcelo Sosa, who is leading the investigation in this case, identified Achá, alias "Superman," along with Alejandro Melgar, "El Lucas," as being involved in and funding the plot.

In a statement to a La Paz television station, Achá – currently in the United States – rejected those charges but confessed that he had met with the killers’ leader, Hungarian-Bolivian Eduardo Rózsa-Flores, on "four or five" occasions. The Rózsa-Flores terrorist group was dismantled in a Bolivian police operation a few weeks ago. Three of the mercenaries, among them the group’s alleged leader, Eduardo Rózsa-Flores, died in a gun fight, while two others were arrested and are currently being detained in La Paz. The authorities subsequently captured two other conspirators, both members of the fascist organization Unión Juvenil Cruceñista, which provided the group with weapons.

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2009/mayo/vier15/Valladares.html

Allard got this story right. Feel free to fact check every bit of it.
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spanza Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-08-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Didn't Valladares resign after the HRF call on the OAS
to suspend Honduras' antidemocratic government?

So, HRF is a right wing front group and the same HRF has been calling since the 30th of june to suspend Micheletti's government and for the restitution of Zelaya.

This 2 affirmations put together sound a bit strange. Unless you think the HRF's positions concerning the coup in Honduras and the resignation of Valladares are pure manipulation... which could be possible. But you need to support your claim.

The HRF videos posted earlier showed the entire venezuelan Supreme Court shouting "Uh, Ah, Chavez will not leave"... do you think it's a montage? I saw it on state TV (canal 8, VTV). Everyone can see the footage in the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x23727
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-08-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Go search Thor Halvorssen: at AEI, Heritage,
the Federalist Society and all their little circle of friends. :)
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
42. Just a matter of time before they run out of steam, discredited.
Here's an earlier discussion of that nasty little shabby group founded by the Vene. opposition brat we had earlier this year:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x13498
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
26. Well you must like hanging out with us
since you are here.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Why would you feel concerned about what I said?
Who is "us"?
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. "Us" is you 'very strange liberals.'
Edited on Sat Oct-10-09 12:08 AM by roody
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
41. The so-called "Human Rights Foundation" is controlled by the right-wing libertarian propagandist,
Thor Halvorssen Mendoza. His biography page at HRF attempts to provide human rights credentials by beginning Thor began advocating for human rights in 1989 in London by organizing opposition to South African apartheid. One should note that Thor (born in 1976) was 13 in 1989 and that most folk don't attempt to pack their resumes with unverifiable stories from their middle school years. Thor apparently has access to lots of rightwing libertarian money, since (for a while at least) he acted as producer for rightwing films such as “Indoctrinate U" and the anti-environmentalist “Mine Your Own Business”

The sloppy attitude of Thor's HRF towards human rights issues can be indicated by their support for Hugo Alberto Achá Melgar; see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=14696&mesg_id=14727

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Astounding. Disgusting. Predictable, too! They can't afford to tell the truth. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. Hilarious. Karmic returns: he's been mistaken for his father
as someone who worked for CIA in Central America in the 80s. :)
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Did you ever read his dad's Wiki? Hilarious! Odd. Guy's a wealthy a-hole, and loser.
Edited on Sun Oct-11-09 03:10 AM by Judi Lynn
On edit:

Whoops. Forgot to leave the wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Halvorssen_Hellum
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. Someone needs to open a new message board somewhere else: "Welcome, oligarchs."
That might get a few lost souls who don't seem to believe the wording at this sight welcomes Democrats, liberals, progressives. Period.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Oligarch???!
you don't know the meaning of that word!

you are 100 times more oligarch than me, american judi lynn. be sure about that.

what makes me an oligarch? to be in disagreement with your idol?

you judge people so easily!
what else could you know about me? how can you say that I have power and money without knowing me?

you are an example of black and white thinking, political discrimination and ignorance.

I am progressive and liberal, a lot more than you evidently. you call yourself liberal, but you shouldn't after what you just said. at least for 10 days!

thanks for giving a good demonstration of my point, one more time.
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Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. Trend to the Left? It's all cyclic
As long as free elections are held, these things go in cycles. For example, it looks like the left is about to lose in Chile, and the Kirchner-Fernandez gang already lost in Argentina. Even in Brazil, where Lula has done such a magnificent job, the left is likely to lose the next elections. In general, Latin American governance is lousy. This is why only Africa does worse.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. In general, your posts are lousy.
Barely .01 iota of logic.


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Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Pay me
And I'll do better.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Yeah, I'd say it's a TREND when leftists get elected in Venezuela, Brazil, Chile,
Bolivia, Argentina, Ecuador, Uruguay and Paraguay--leaving only Colombia and Peru, the worst-governed countries in the western hemisphere, with rightwing governments, in South America, and then leftists get elected in Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua and Honduras*, and a leftist comes within a hairsbreadth (0.05%) of winning the presidency in Mexico (and lost amidst widespread accusations by Lopez-Obrador's supporters of election fraud by the rightists). That leaves, what...Panama?

Granting Mexico its rightwing government, though at least half of Mexico is quite leftist, and not counting the tiny countries (like Dominica), FOUR out of FIVE countries in Central America have elected leftist governments recently, and EIGHT out of TEN countries in South America have elected leftist governments over the last five to ten years, all of which are still in power (Ecuador, Bolivia and Paraguay, recently, and Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina** and Chile of longer duration).

EIGHTY PERCENT of the major countries of Latin America now have leftist governments--whereas none of them did when the decade started (Chavez had just been elected in Venezuela a decade ago.) That is a trend. And whatever your guesses are as to what may occur next, politically, in Brazil, Argentina or Chile, or anywhere else, to say that this is "cyclical" is ridiculous.

This is WHY the Honduran junta general said that, by their coup, they were "preventing communism from Venezuela reaching the United States (--quoted in the Zelaya government report)--because there IS a leftist trend in Latin America, and it is vaulting up the region to our very border. They were apparently deputized to stop it, and I can only guess, among the likely suspects (McCain? Negroponte? DeMint? Reich? Rumsfeld? Chiquita? Dyncorp?) who deputized them for that task. I would like to have been a "fly on the wall" at those discussions.

----------------------------

*(Mel Zelaya was elected as a member of the more liberal of the two parties that rule Honduras--and turned out to be more liberal than the oligarchs counted on. I guess they thought they had a "Blue Dog" on a leash.)

**(The Kirchners lost some support in the recent by-elections, and Cristina Fernandez, who succeeded her husband, Nestor Kirchner, as president, at first very popular, has seen a plummeting approval rating, but the story is not over in Argentina--one of the most politically volatile countries in the region until Nestor Kirchner got elected, followed by Cristina Fernandez. I think they went through four presidents in as many months--something like that--before Nestor Kirchner was elected. Argentina was one of the countries that the World Bank/IMF destroyed, as prior governments and the rich sold out their countrymen. All public services were looted; the economy utterly collapsed. Nestor Kirchner put Argentina back on its feet--in part by his alliance with Hugo Chavez in Venezuela (which provided Argentina with low-cost loans and barter deals--the seed of the Bank of the South--to help pull it out ruination). Now that the country is back on its feet, the upper classes, the big landowners and the fascists are feeling entitled, again, to fleece everybody else. Fernandez has been trying to hold them in check. If she or her successor fails at that task, Argentina will plunge into ruin again--just as we would here, for instance, if the Bushwhacks get back in power. These are not normal times, and this is not a matter of political cycles. (Is a president per month a "cycle"?) That is what I mean by the story is not over. I doubt that Argentina wants to return to complete ruination and ungovernability.)
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Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. of course it's a cyclic trend
In other words, the trend for left leaning politicians was up a while back. Now it seems things are turning around for the center-right. For example, in Chile and Brazil (nations you mentioned) poll results show the left is likely to lose the elections.

Economic news aren't so hot for the communists in Venezuela and Cuba (because Cuba lives largely off the Venezuelan dole).

On the other hand, Mexico may indeed go left. The US, on the other hand, should remain safely democrat for about 12 years, because Bush was such a terrible president. But Labor sure looks puny in the UK, and the communists in Russia don't have much hope of ever coming back.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-08-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Leftists were just elected in El Salvador, Guatemala & Paraguay--which was almost unthinkable
just a few years ago. El Salvador was a major fascist war zone in the 1980s, and, early this year, the voters elected the leftist guerrillas' party (those who fought the fascists with arms) to the presidency. They had long ago disavowed violence, but still, this is a sign of the tremendous change that has swept over Latin America.

Paraguay had suffered under 61 years of oppressive and corrupt righwing rule, including a long period of heinous dictatorship. The name of their country had become a joke about where war criminals flee to (besides Miami). They elected a very leftist president just last year. (Some said it was impossible, that he couldn't pull the fractious leftist parties together; they were wrong.)

Guatemala is another example of the unthinkable happening--a leftist government getting elected, after all those years of dreadful rightwing rule and dictatorship (and mass slaughter of the indigenous during the Reagan "reign of terror").

Leftists were elected in Ecuador and Bolivia just before that, and, in both of those cases, the Constitutions were re-written to broaden political empowerment, and have since been approved overwhelmingly by the voters.

During that period (circa 2006) Chavez was re-elected in Venezuela with nearly 60% of the vote. Meanwhile, the more long-standing leftist governments--Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina, Chile--led the effort to band together to begin economic/political integration through the newly formalized South American "common market," UNASUR (after some regional trade groups were formed--Mercosur, ALBA). One of the first activities of UNASUR was to defend the Morales administration in Bolivia against a Bushwhack-funded and organized white separatist coup attempt. This event was the ikon of a remarkable new policy of the big countries helping the little countries--in all kinds of ways, politically, defending democratic institutions, economic development projects, loans and aid. Brazil and Argentina, for instance--Bolivia's chief gas customers--made very clear that they would not recognize or trade with the white separatists in Bolivia (who were trying to commandeer Bolivia's rich gas resource). Brazil and Venezuela put up the money for a major new highway from the Atlantic to the Pacific, through Bolivia (which will make Bolivia a major trade route), and Chile settled a long standing dispute with Bolivia, granting Bolivia access to the Pacific. Also, Brazil helped Paraguay's new leftist president re-negotiate Paraguay's hydroelectric contracts with Brazilian firms, to make them fairer to Paraguay. And Venezuela helped several countries out of onerous World Bank/IMF debt.

An additional leftist victory had occurred in Uruguay (yet another surprise), bringing Uruguay in as an ally of all of these other leftist countries. Meanwhile, in Honduras, a "centrist" president turned leftist, and began advocating a better deal for the poor.

This is NOT a "cyclical trend." This is a Big Historical Trend--a tide of history. Latin America has declared its independence and is proceeding on a path of its own--with goals of social justice, cooperation amongst themselves (many, many examples of this), greatly improved democratic institutions (much cleaner, more transparent elections than ours, for instance), and rejection of US domination and bullying.

This Big Trend is irreversible except by war--which is why those seven new US military bases in Colombia, and this fascist coup is US client state, Honduras, are so worrisome. The Bushwhack policy was to take what it wanted by force, and, in Latin America, by two attempted coups (Venezuela, 2002; Bolivia, 2008), by militarism (using the "war on drugs" to totally brutalize and oppress Colombia's poor majority, in preparation for a US/Colombia "free trade for the rich" deal), and by dirty tricks, psyops, massive funding of fascist groups, and, those failing, by instigating a war (which they tried to do early last year, with the US/Colombia bombing/raid on Ecuador). I think their war plan is still "on the table," and that Obama's stated policy of peace, respect and cooperation may or may not be sincere, or that Obama may or may not have the power to implement it, if it is sincere. And I know for a fact that many of Latin America's leaders are wondering the same thing--including "center-leftists" like Lulu in Brazil and Batchelet in Chile.

All political leaders and parties have ups and downs. That is normal. But these are not normal times, nor is the overwhelming leftist democracy movement in Latin America "normal" in this sense ("business as usual" politics). The stakes are very, VERY high--both for the people of Latin America and for their exploiters (local rich elites, US and other global corporate predators and US war profiteers--as well as, to some extent, rich European investors, which have looted these countries through the World Bank/IMF.) The latter--the exploiters--are pouring their own and US taxpayer resources into defeating these leftist governments. John McCain was funneling $43 million to Honduras' coupsters alone (through his US taxpayer funded "International Republican Institute/USAID). And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Billions are being spent to undermine Latin American democracy, destabilize and "divide and conquer" these countries, and defeat leftist candidates.

And the grandest stake of all is Planet Earth--an issue of critical importance in Latin America (and to us all, certainly). Will national governments develop the strength and sovereignty to fend off global corporate plunder and pollution, and to resist the temptation for short term economic gains through their own environmental mistakes? This is one of the main issues driving leftist success in Latin America, and we had better hope that the left succeeds in protecting the environment, cuz the right sure ain't gonna do any such thing.
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Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-08-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Over what?
I wouldn't call it overwhelming if the largest countries are moving towards the center, as it appears in Brazil, Argentina, Chile, and of course Colombia. El Salvador, Guatemala and Paraguay are pimples. I'd say it's just cyclic. The key, of course, is to avoid falling into the trap of electing extremists or irresponsible types, either on the left or on the right, and to work to weaken central government as much as possible. Unfortunately, it is the tendency of the extreme left to advocate a super strong centralized government power, which degenerates into autocracy and dictatorship, as in Cuba.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-08-09 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. "...to work to weaken central government as much as possible." Tell that to the millions of
unemployed, homeless, starving people in the US who needed a strong central government on their side in the 1930s. Tell that to the millions of unemployed, and growing ranks of homeless, hungry people here TODAY, as the banksters and other corporate profiteers make off with the loot that should have gone to repairing this country and our people! This is a rightwing, corpo/fascist idea--to undermine and destroy national governments and the sovereignty of the people which act as a check on the power of "organized money" (as FDR put it). This is a Grover Norquist idea ("drowning" the New Deal "in the bathtub") (--he said, "drowning government in the bathtub" but he was really talking about the NEW DEAL--about PEOPLE-ORIENTED GOVERNMENT).

Do you know what happens when fascists "weaken central government"? THIS is what happens. Great Depression II! A looted, ruined country!

It was only through strong regulation of banks and finance--impossible without strong central governments--that Brazil and Venezuela have landed on their feet after the Bushwhack Financial 9/11. Lula da Silva said as much when the crash hit. The "blue-eyed wonders" in Washington and London had told them to de-regulate. They did not. Thus, they are SOLVENT--and we are in massive debt unto the 7th generation!

Stupid, lying, looting, greed-bag policy of attacking central governments--the sovereign governments of, by and for the PEOPLE.

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Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. They don't need a strong central government
A strong central government is the natural enemy of the people. It inevitably falls in the hands of greedy, corrupt bastards, and they can be both left and/or right leaning, or religious fanatics, or whatever.

The REASON why there are so many people getting screwed in the USA is PRECISELY because Washington DC has become so strong they no longer fear the people's retribution. You are a bunch of cattle being driven and milked. They take you to war, kill you maim you, lie to you, take your money, and when you want higher wages they bring in Mexicans to take your jobs, or ship the factories to Botswana, and tell you this is a nice thing to do - you are brainwashed to the max.

Fascism requires a strong central government. So do communists. This isn't about ideology, it's about the nature of a naked ape, homo sapiens. Homo sapiens dictators like strong central government, they thrive in it, it's their lifeblood. I suggest you start at the beginning, and read Orwell's 1984. When you finish, come back and we'll discuss this a little more.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. You can lead a horse to water ...
Free market kool aid, on the other hand ...




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Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. Free Market is the Winner
The day you can show me one of your communist nations in the top 20 in the world economy, using GDP per capita as the measure, I'll stop supporting capitalism, free markets, free press, and so on and so forth.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. This might interest you.
Edited on Sat Oct-10-09 12:39 PM by Billy Burnett
The last paragraph is particularly salient.

Issues With GDP as a Measure of Well-Being
http://fatknowledge.blogspot.com/2007/08/issues-with-gdp-as-measure-of-well.html

GDP measures the total amount of goods and services that are created in an economy. GDP per capita is used as a proxy for standard of living and more generally of well-being. It is used to compare levels of well-being between nations. It is also used as a way to compare how the level of well-being has changed over time in a nation.

While GDP is a good measurement of the size of the formal economy, using GDP per capita as a measure of well-being has 6 issues that impact its accuracy.

1) GDP gives no value to leisure. A society that works more hours will have a higher GDP but not necessarily greater well-being.

2) GDP does not capture the non-paid sector: volunteer work, the informal sector (and black market), raising children, and household duties. GDP can grown by monetizing work that previously was done for free, but this does not necessarily increase well-being.

3) GDP includes 'Regrettables' such as police protection, health care, insurance, and military spending. They are regrettable because if people were more honest, healthier, less prone to accidents and more peaceful, the money could be spent in ways that lead to greater well-being.

Imagine two countries, one with a greater level of honesty such that they can have a smaller police force than the other. The citizens of that country would spend less on fighting crime and have more money to spend in other more pleasurable ways. That society would have greater well-being but it would not be reflected in GDP. Similar scenarios could be constructed for doctors, soldiers, fire fighters or social workers. Not to say that these aren't valuable and rewarding jobs, just that society would be better off if we didn't need as many of them.

Some argue that these regrettables such as the Exxon Valdez oil spill actually increase GDP because jobs are created to clean up the spill. This is not true, but rather an example of the broken window fallacy: that breaking a window helps the economy by creating a job for that glass worker. It is incorrect because the money that is spent fixing the window could have been spent in another way that would have created another job for another person. Likewise, regrettables don't add to GDP, they just redirect spending.

A society that spends less on regrettables will have greater well-being at the same level of GDP as one that spends more.

4) GDP does not take into account assets. Even from a standard economics point of view, this doesn't make sense. It is like judging a company based solely on its income statement without looking at the balance sheet.

Often times after a natural disaster GDP goes up due to the economic activity generated by reconstruction. While no one thinks that destroying houses makes good economic sense, GDP does not take reflect whether assets are being increased or decreased and therefore gives an incomplete view of the economy. It doesn't make sense to look at GDP growth without taking a look at what is happening to a nations assets in the form of real estate, stocks, bonds, and cash and their liabilities such as underfunding of social security and Medicare.

Beyond these standard forms of assets, non-standard assets need to be accounted for as well. Human capital (education, knowledge), societal capital (honesty, security, institutions), health assets (value of being healthy) and environmental assets (fish stocks, forests) all impact the health of the economy and need to be reflected.

The issue of regrettables being misvalued can be taken care of with non-standard assets to reflect their value. An honest society would have less crime and require fewer police. This could be reflected in societal capital.

A nation that is increasing its assets more at a given level of GDP will be in better economic shape in the future than one that isn't.

5) Using GDP per capita as a measurement of well-being assumes that people use their time and income in a way to maximize their own well being. But this in not always the case for 3 reasons.

First, people aren't good at gauging how much happiness they will get from their purchases. For example, people typically don't take into account how quickly they will adapt to the pleasure a product gives when making purchases (hedonic adaptation). People spend their money on larger houses and fancier cars, but they come to take them for granted quicker than they expect. People would get more well-being per dollar if they were to spend money on inconspicous goods that they won't adapt to such as freedom from a long commute or a stressful job. Because of this, knowledgeable people are able to get more happiness and well-being out of each dollar they spend.

Second, people suffer from short term perspectives and lack of control. Those that can plan their spending long term can get more value from each dollar, by making purchases when prices are low or buying in bulk. Lack of control and addictions such as gambling and drugs can lead to a much lower level of well-being at the same level of consumption as someone without these problems.

Third, the value of many goods is not absolute but rather relative to what other people have. Pleasure is derived not by having a large house, but because the house is larger than that of your friends and family. The absolute size of the house doesn't impact well-being, just the relative size. Therefore, much of spending is a zero sum game. It is a consumption arms race that does little to help overall well-being, as there is still only one person in first place. More spending on these goods does not raise well-being as it just raises the absolute not the relative level.

A society that better understands what gives well-being, has a longer term perspective and avoids zero sum spending will have greater well-being at a given level of GDP than one that doesn't.

6) GDP per capita is a mean rather than median average. The more even the distribution of wealth in a society, the more well-being it will lead to.

Money becomes less valuable the more you have of it. $10,000 is more valuable to someone in poverty than it is to Bill Gates. Because of this, well-being is maximized when income is distributed evenly. While GDP per capita might not see a difference between Bill Gates increasing his wealth by $10 billion and 1 million people increase their wealth by $10,000, the second is greater in terms of well-being. A society with a more even distribution of wealth will have a greater level of well-being at the same level of GDP per capita as one that has a less even distribution.

Other issues

1) When comparing a country's GDP over time, you want to take inflation out of the equation (going from nominal to real GDP). The way inflation (GDP deflater) is calculated impacts real GDP, and therefore how much improvement has taken place.

If an identical product goes up in price, for example a dozen eggs, it is easy to calculate inflation on that item. But, other items are more subjective. For example, greater variety of goods makes for better consumption, but how much? How much better is a Netflix with a 20,000 movie library than one with 2,000? 200 channels of cable television vs. 20?

Improved technology makes for better consumption as well, but again how much? How much better is the 4th generation iPod over the 3rd generation? A 10 megabit internet connection vs. a 56k dial up connection?

If the environment used to provides services for free, such as filtering water, but it has deteriorated and now you have to pay for it, is this taken into account? Or if lumber used to be abundant and cheap but due to mismanagement in is now scarce and expensive, is this considered inflationary?

The way inflation is calculated impacts how much real GDP has changed and many of the decisions are subjective judgment calls.

2) When comparing between countries you need a way to convert the GDP of one nation into the others. This can be done via the currency exchange rate, but this fluctuates often for reasons beyond the relative values of goods and services. Another way to do it is the price purchasing parity (PPP) which attempts to normalize the prices of goods between two countries, so a Big Mac in one country costs the same as a Big Mac consumed in another. But how exactly do you do this for all goods and services? Not all goods and services are identical between countries, so again judgment calls have to be made. The way PPP is calculated impacts the comparison of GDPs.

3) Some argue that because prices in an economy are based on the margin that GDP is misleading. It is true that some things that give great value to well-being are abundant (like water) and cheap and therefore show little impact on GDP while others are scarce and expensive (like diamonds) and not at all necessary for life. When comparing between different goods, their price might not reflect their value.

But, in aggregate, this is not a problem. Water is only cheap because it is abundant and everyone can have access to it. If it became scarce, resources would have to be redirected to provide it and it would become expensive. This redirection of resources would take people away from producing some other good or service and therefore lower total GDP. Valuing on the margin does not impact the results of GDP per capita, for $12,000 per capita is always better than $10,000 (assuming the GDP deflater and exchange rates are calculated properly).

Conclusion

While GDP per capita is often used as a proxy for well-being it has many issues. It does not value leisure, or the non-paid sector. It values regrettables just like other goods and services. It doesn't take into account assets. It is a mean average that doesn't take into account distribution of income.

These probably could be accounted for with some tweaks to the system. The value of leisure and non-paid work could be estimated and added in. Regrettables could be subtracted from the total. Asset values (both standard and non-standard) could be calculated and accompany the GDP figure. GDP could be adjusted based on the level of income inequality in a nation.

On the other hand, the fact that some societies can get greater levels of well-being on lower levels of income due to better understanding of well-being, a longer term perspective or fewer zero-sum games means that we cannot just tweak the current system. Instead, we need a new measurement system to do the comparisons.









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Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Measuring Well Being
Unfortunately, it's hard to measure well being using subjective measures. For example, what's important to you may not be worth much to me. On the other hand, GDP per capita does measure economic efficiency rather well, and can be correlated closely to well being. The reason why I said "PUT ONE OF YOUR COMMUNIST NATIONS ON THE TOP 20" was precisely because I do understand GDP isn't the only measure, and if only you could put ONE lonely nation in the top 20, then I'd be willing to reconsider.

There's another issue, I can't discuss who I really am, but I have lived and traveled all over the place, and I can honestly say from personal observation that societies such as Canada, Norway, Netherlands, and Spain have much better standards of living and happier people than say Cuba, North Korea, or even soft communists such as Yugoslavia in its heyday.

I also see a huge problem when it comes to your attacks on a free market, which I correlate to proposals to install hard line socialist or communist governments...they ALWAYS degenerate into dictatorship. Human nature is such that concentrating power leads to tyranny. When the state owns the means of production it just has too much power, and government officials proceed to corrupt the system, and to make sure they perpetuate themselves in power. Communism, as envisioned by Marx and Engels, and practiced by their followers from Lenin to Mao to Castro, just doesn't mix well with freedom.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. You actually read the article?
Your response indicates otherwise.

Imo, your other comments are unhinged corporatebabble also. You make as much sense as Bill Frist or Michele Bachmann.







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Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #39
47. Billy, I did read the article
I don't agree with all of its contents, nor do I go along with your atempt to reduce GDP per capita to a meaningless statistic. What we have here is a complete lack of communication, because we humans tend to filter out information which doesn't fit with our preconceived ideas. This phenomenom has become more prevalent because we have the ability to flock to news sources, internet websites, and far away friends who provide the information we think "fits" well with reality.

The difference between the two of us is as follows: I am accutely aware of the problem, and I strive to listen well, and understand why others have different beliefs. I guess this came about because in the 1960's I was a strong supporter of Israel, and eventually was able to understand I had been backing the wrong side - I believe reading Chomsky and a book called "Righteous Victims" by Morris, is what did the trick.

Thus, the only thing I can suggest is that you strive to understand this simple fact: People who disagree with you aren't necessarily wrong, they just happen to look at things in a different way, have different life experiences, and have filtered information to suit THEIR world view.

I happen to have seen the results of communism first hand, and was very busy in the 1990's dismantling it in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, to make sure it never returned. So my view is shaped by my experience. I saw the horrors of communism, what it had done, the way workers had been treated, the horrific pollution, the wasted lives, the jails, the gulags, the insane decisions made by venal and corrupt bureaucrats. And I don't think it's worth the risk to ever come close to that horror again.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. LOL
:rofl:
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-12-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. Typical Libertarian black-and-white thinking
"If you think business needs to be on a short leash, then you're the same as a Communist."

Isn't there some Libertarian board you could spout your nonsense on?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Anyone who's read our own history is only too keenly aware of your points. My god.
Right-wing greed-driven idiots have struggled wildly to reverse the very progress that put the country back to work, back on track, brought it out of dispair, desparation, chaos, tried over and over again all these long years.

The country's not going to let them get by with it, either.

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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Which country, Judi?
The country's not going to let them get by with it, either.


If you're speaking of the US, I wish I had your optimism. Based on my travels around this country, and my conversations with all types of Americans from all socioeconomic strata, I don't share this optimism. The distrust and hatred of government (Ron Reagan's voiced anti gov ideology somehow seemingly implanted in America's heads) is rampant - on the left and the right. It has created some kind of warped mindset that any regulatory function is bad, as are taxes on the rich. Americans are pissed at the "special interests" influence in politics, while at the same time not realizing the funding from said "special interests" is the very life blood of their political system. But a small tax to underwrite campaigns and a robust fairness doctrine in media to open campaigns to more public access ... NO WAY!

The more I discuss politics here (in the US, not necessarily DU), the less hopeful I become. :(





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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. We only slightly dodged the bullet with Bush, but we in someways survived.
It looked as if they finally had seized enough power through the two fraudulent elections to finally bend the entire country to their vicious will, but somehow it slipped away from them. I was shocked, horrified beyond description for 8 years, and certain it was only going to get worse.

It looked as if they had finally won almost every day of those 8 years of hell.

Don't give up, Billy Burnett.

It will be a constant struggle to get away from their deadly grasp but it must be done for survival.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Big progressive movements always start small, with a few courageous people.
Never, ever, ever give up on democracy in the USA! It will happen here, even among our poor, propagandized, brainwashed people. If it can happen in Latin America--after all they've suffered--it can happen here, too.

And know this: A very special effort has been made here, to disempower and demoralize our people, and most especially to disempower and demoralize activists like yourself. That's what the corpo/fascist 'news' monopolies and the 'TRADE SECRET' voting machines are all about here. Disempowerment. Demoralization. You've got to realize this, and learn how to renew yourself in the midst of this relentless brainwashing.

This special effort to brainwash our people has been made because of our great potential power in the world. We are citizens of "the empire" that has caused, and continues to cause, so much misery in the world. We are, theoretically, the rulers of this land. If this notion--our sovereignty as a people--and our great democratic traditions, ever get up a head of steam in the US, it's all over for the Corporate Rulers. They know this. That is why we have no source of information/opinion, in the monopolized press, that is not corpo/fascist propaganda. It is very intense. And our people are particularly vulnerable to it, because of the lifestyles that our Corporate Rulers have encouraged or imposed.

It's interesting that Latin Americans have even worse corpo/fascist media than we do, but have somehow managed to establish transparent vote counting, and to elect good leaders. I think this may be because Latin Americans have stronger communities. This is especially true of the indigenous, who are in many cases leading this leftist democracy movement that has swept the region. We don't have that here. We have fractured families, living far apart from each other, and fractured, corporatized neighborhoods that too often are not communities at all, but just a series of isolated "caves" that people live in. As a result, our people are much more vulnerable to broadcast brainwashing. In fact, I think, for a lot of our people, the TV is their community and their nation. They plug into it as to an umbilical cord. It gives them a sense of belonging, in our very fractured, disconnected population. They may even disagree, or even hate, the 'news' content on TV, but they can't disconnect from it. And thus it is able to seep into their souls with messages of disempowerment and demoralization, as well as overt corpo/fascist propaganda.

I would say that, in dealing with people who spout corporate messages, to start by merely getting them to think for themselves on some uncontentious issue. They desperately need to exercise their brains in an independent way. Or better yet, provide an opportunity for them to feel empowered in some real way by a civic activity. In Latin America, many grass roots groups started small--like, how to solve the drainage problem down the road, that the public bus always gets stuck in, or pooling money to buy a produce truck, or creating a meeting space where common problems can be discussed and information shared. From these small roots incredibly powerful movements have been created in Latin America--movements that have utterly changed the political landscape for the better. The civic activities might be different here, but the principle is the same: empowerment.

Our people spout corporate messages because they are, in fact, disempowered, and have no other sources of connection and information, than the corporate media. Probably your merely talking to them did some good--even if they disagreed with you on the issues. That effort of communication will resonate--maybe not immediately, but eventually. Someone listened to them! Someone bothered to talk to them. Someone cared about what they think. That's the message that your trek spread across the land--like Johnny Appleseed. People talking about the issues. People listening. And not just sitting stupidly in front of the TV absorbing all that overt and covert corpo/fascist garbage.

Above all, I would say to you: fight the corporate-imposed demoralization! I mean your own. Fight it off! That's what all their power and propaganda are aimed at: demoralizing people like you. Making you want to give up. Silencing you. Don't be silenced. And don't hold the intention of convincing people of anything--even if you argue strongly for something. Hold the intention of getting them to think for themselves. That's what they need the most. Once those brain cells are working again, they will figure things out.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-10-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Thank for such a positive and well considered post.
Edited on Sat Oct-10-09 01:57 PM by Billy Burnett

I feel just as you have posted so succinctly (well ... almost). Maybe now and then I get a little discouraged and self reflective, which isn't a bad thing to do. I'm not giving up at all, just evolving my approaches. I used to do (I was a whore doing) post production for bullshit corporogarbage TV, and commercials. Not any more. I couldn't stomach it (even though I became an artist with counterintuitive subliminal neuro linguistic programming ;) ). I so much more enjoy hitting the road doing various smaller venue gigs and demonstrating US/Canadian hand made instruments. Having more personal contact with people. The flip side of the enjoyment of this is that I get to see America from an on the road view - and it ain't pretty out there. The decline over the last 15 years is astounding. The resulting confusion and depression is as bad as the access to diverse sources of real information is sparse. It is Rush Limball, Sean Insanity, Glenn Bekkk, and their imitators blanketing this country. That and seriously whacked "religion" shows.

Just realized my post was getting too dark, lol, so I'll stop now.


Thanks for the good cheer. :loveya:





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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #40
46. Yup, fight the darkness!
Many people, groups and entire countries have faced severe oppression, throughout history. We have many examples in our own history--the anti-slavery movement, the civil rights movement, the labor movement, our initial revolution itself. I was reading a book about the American Revolution some time ago--can't recall the title--and I was struck by how tentative, how iffy, that revolution was. There was no certain outcome, at all. The revolutionaries--people like Jefferson, Madison and Franklin--faced HANGING if they were caught. They were considered "terrorists." The Bushwhacks of the day would have shown them no mercy. And at every step of the way, things went seriously wrong, or threatened to go so seriously wrong, that there would have been no American Revolution, no "shining light of freedom" that utterly changed the world and inspired liberation movements for the next 200 years.

Revolution is HARD. It involves loneliness and fear and big setbacks. It spans generations. It seldom happens overnight. And there can be great suffering for the people who "see over the mountain" (as Martin Luther King so eloquently described it)--for those of us who envision and fight for a better world.

I think we have to get over the idea that it's going to be easy--and we also have to make fully conscious just how bad our situation is right now, because good strategy needs to be based on reality, on the truth. I think the truth is that we are as oppressed by our Corporate Rulers as the people in the Dark and Middle Ages in Europe were oppressed by the Roman Catholic Church. There are great similarities between the Global Corporate Predator Rule that we are experiencing now, and the all-pervasive, all powerful Church of Medieval times. Rome's power was so complete that people were unable to think of challenging it. They could not conceive of such a thing. The Church was international, had its own language (that ordinary people, and even nobles, could not read or understand); they had a monopoly on education; they claimed to control God's anointment of kings (and people believed them); they claimed control of the gates to heaven and hell, and had the propagandistic tools to make people believe this; they acquired enormous property and wealth; and no one dared question their power or their corruption.

It took Europe a thousand years to throw off this oppression--an oppression of both mind and body. I don't think it will take nearly so long here--in the U.S., at the heart of this usurped democracy. We have many things going for us, including our great revolutionary tradition, and, indeed, the example of Latin America, where an historic democracy revolution is succeeding in one of the most oppressed regions of the world. It has not been easy for Latin Americans, and it has taken time--long hard work on democratic institutions and grass roots organizing. But, by God, they are doing it! They are establishing their sovereignty and independence, and real democracy! It is a lovely thing to behold, and has some lessons for us, including the critical importance of transparent vote counting (which we have lost).

American democracy will be reborn, believe me. You know what one of the Honduran junta's generals said (quoted in a report from the Zelaya government-in-exile)? He said that, by their coup, they were "preventing communism from Venezuela reaching the United States."

But what he really meant was that, by their coup, they were trying to prevent DEMOCRACY, such as they have in Venezuela (transparent vote counting, maximum citizen participation, universal free medical care, universal free education through college, empowerment of the poor majority, etc.), from reaching the United States. And why would they have this mission--to save the United States from being infected by Venezuelan "communism" (read democracy)? Because this great leftist democracy movement--of which Venezuela is the icon--has swept up through South America, with leftist governments elected in Venezuela, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Uruguay and Paraguay (most of the continent) into Central America, where leftist governments have recently been elected in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras--half of Central America--and where a leftist came within a hairsbreadth (0.05%) of winning the presidency of Mexico --which would have made it the entirety of Central America, and put this remarkable revolution right on our doorstep.

The junta which overturned Honduran democracy, and ousted its left-leaning president, Mel Zelaya, had it, as their mission (from rightwing, corpo/fascists here) to STOP THIS DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT FROM REACHING THE UNITED STATES.

You see how close it is? It's just "over the mountain." This crude fascist dictatorship in Honduras will fail. A big grass roots democracy and resistance movement has arisen in Honduras, and they are surrounded by friends--leftist governments on every border, in Nicaragua, El Salvador and Guatemala. And Brazil has provided Zelaya a base of operations (its embassy in Honduras) from which to fight against and overturn the Junta. There are some problems and dangers in Latin America (Colombia being the main one, in cahoots with Pentagon war profiteers), and we and Latin Americans may have to suffer through Oil War II before this is over. But if you had told me, a decade ago, that Latin American leftists would sweep most elections by the end of the decade, I would have thought you were nuts. A leftist elected in Paraguay?! In El Salvador?! In Guatemala? (No leftists have been elected, ever, in Paraguay and Guatemala.)

The times they are a-changin'! Look south!
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Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-11-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
48. It's good to distrust government
No reason to hate them, but they can't be trusted. Regulatory functions are needed, but should be rational and efficient. The key is to keep centralized government as weak as possible while allowing it to retain some regulatory functions. Why? Because it is human nature to abuse whatever power it grabs, thus a powerful central government becomes a serious threat to human freedom. The USA had a very close call with the Bush regime, so I hope you realize why this is important.

Many functions performed by the federal government in the USA are over-designed. For example, there's no good reason to have the government flying space shuttles to the space station. Other uses of government funds, such as giving economic aid to Israel, and the endless pork, are a huge waste of resources.

On the other hand, the privatization of the armed forces should be stopped and reversed. The trend towards mercenary forces run by the likes of Blackwater and Halliburton is very troubling.

I don't have objections to a fairness doctrine, provided it is truly fair, and doesn't give undue power to entrenched government bureucrats. For example, I would like one where I can go to the USA and promote legalized drugs and prostitution, and evolution, attack Israeli interests, and explain to the American people why Presidents Clinton and Bush are war criminals.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Will the US have enough ammo to stop the trend?
Edited on Wed Oct-07-09 11:19 PM by Billy Burnett
It seems the only cures for those nasty infectious leftist/socialist/commie democracies are US/SOA sponsored coups and dictatorships (military preferred).





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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-08-09 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I think the powers that be are watching Honduras very closely.
Edited on Thu Oct-08-09 06:50 AM by Downwinder
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spanza Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-08-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Do you mean
that in Venezuela we have only two options? The actual government or an imperialistic dictatorship?
I guess this would justify anything. Until the day I see that binary situation becoming true, I'll keep on criticizing my government from a liberal, progressive, socialist point of view*.


* Give power to the people unconditionally of their political views
Let left-wing plurality and debate exist
Stop using fiscal oil revenues in dollars to speculate against your own economy: inflation is the most regressive form of taxation
Reverse the 1989 trade reform, protect the economy and build a long term productive industry in collaboration with the private sector before thinking of reopening the economy
De-personalize the regime
Give independence to the judicial power
Fusion the binary party/state health and education systems in order to gain efficiency
Bring better public services to the slums
Respect the vote when it's against you
Stop calling "fascists" and "internal enemies" the people who don't agree with you altogether
Disarm the society
Demilitarize politics
Abolish the civil brigade militias
Give the revolution a chance to exist after you're gone

When he does that and fights for this project of society, I'll support him again.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-08-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. With a "liberal" sprinkling of USAID/NED money. n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-09-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. As we all have seen before, "USAID is doing things now openly the CIA used to do covertly." n/t
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