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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 02:50 PM
Original message
I support Cindy Sheehan
And now that we know that some of the Dems are as invested (financially and otherwise) as the Rethugs in this illegal and immoral war, I believe that Cindy was right to hold Dems' feet to the fire as well.

Cindy, don't stop working for peace.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. I totally agree
The Democrats just proved everything Cindy says about them. I hate it that she is dissed here so badly that she even noticed and mentioned us. I support her totally and wish I knew how to let her know.

I will k&r your post.
Lee
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Ress1 Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Cindy
One issue people are fickle, best to just lt her go
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. If it's all the same to you
I'll decide what's best for me in regard to Cindy.
Thanks.
Lee
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. One issue people like John Quincy Adams?
Learn from history what happens when there are people more interested in principle than party.
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Edgeoforever Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. War is not "one issue". War is life and death.
Anything else is BS compared to it.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #37
101. NO KIDDING!!! And Welcome to DU, btw.
I've been out-of-pocket all weekend and just saw her Memorial Day farewell, and her reference to being called an "attention whore" here somewhere.

Sigh...

In my opinion she is NO attention whore. Gee, so somebody wants to make a lot of noise and stir up a lot of commotion trying to draw attention to a world-class CRIME, and she's derided as a mere attention whore? HERE????? Talk about adding insult to injury.

Whoever did that, SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!!!!

Cindy, wherever you are, I love you, support you, and stand WITH you, FIRMLY and RESOLUTELY, as another mother for peace.

So sorry to see her leave, but I suspect she's had enough discouragement and emotional slaps in the face. ONE from george w. schmuck is bad enough, but for some here or wherever to pile on her, too, is unconscionable.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
70. You must not know Cindy very well. n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #70
94. He doesn't

:)
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
93. Drive-by comment by one of the 22%?
No one to roast weenies with this weekend, eh?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
110. Gee ya wonder why she got so upset with DU?
How insulting. Yet another slam against Cindy that won't be deleted. No sense in even alerting.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
52. Thanks for the K&R
Everyone.
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Monica Benderman Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
117. On Responsibility --
Kevin and I have known Cindy for three years. We know the system, the politics, the games and the attitudes as well; those that stand to destroy anyone who isn't strong enough to see through the illusion -- and believe me -- Cindy's strength came from her grief - the illusion of strength coming from the power of not wanting to let go of her son, and that illusion finally lost its power.

It's time for everyone to stand back and think seriously about what is happening in this country - how - why - and be honest with themselves about their role in the madness.

Many people have criticized me for addressing the responsibility of the American people in the situation we now find ourselves in. I have heard from people blaming Congress, the administration, the military - but these same people write and tell me that the "American people" were hornswoggled - duped - misled. I would be ashamed to think that the American people were so ignorant that they could be so easily duped.

Ignorance comes from being willing to be led. Ignorance comes from being lazy. Ignorance comes from not wanting to make a single decision for fear of it being the wrong decision. By counting on others we put in "leadership" positions to make our decisions for us we always have someone else to blame if they don't work. But I can guarantee -- if this war had done what we were told it would do in the time we were told it was going to do it, 90% of the people now blaming Congress would be accepting credit for voting them into office.

There is a reason Kevin and I continue to tell soldiers and families -- DO NOT LET YOURSELF BE LED BY THE MOVEMENT -- make sure you take care of yourselves, speak as you feel you must, not allowing yourself to be led by the promises of those who only want someone else to do their work for you. DO NOT ALLOW THOSE IN THE MOVEMENT TO LEAD YOU TO DECISIONS THAT COULD EVENTUALLY DESTROY ALL YOU HAVE WORKED FOR.

That is what happened to Cindy -- it is what cannot happen to another American willing to step out and try to make a difference.

THIS COUNTRY is addicted to letting others do their work for them. That has got to stop if we want to make any headway at all in
a positive direction. This country is addicted to money, drugs, alcohol, and all the trappings - the superficial illusion of doing work -

The mistake Cindy made was in thinking that any of the people who claimed to be by her side were her friends. How could they be?? They never knew her. Cindy was and continues to be a grieving mother -- and this country, in its inevitable way of glorifying the macabre, lost sight of her humanity and her grief and used her in the most severe way possible.


Here at Fort Stewart this past month we are watching soldiers deploy for their third and fourth times. In one year between deployments there were 191 cases of child abuse due to combat related stress. In one year between deployments there were 138 cases of spousal abuse due to combat related stress. There are flashing signs proudly announcing 29 days since the last alcohol related driving fatality ON FT. STEWART -

My husband, Kevin Benderman, went to prison for over a year -- because he actually cared enough to write and speak about what the soldiers he served with were facing -- and neither one of us would shut up, even when threatened with all that we were -- horrific stories were related over two years -- even as Kevin was incarcerated in a Loss of Privilege bay to keep him from talking we still did found ways to tell the truth --

WHO CARED ENOUGH TO LISTEN???????????????

Kevin and I understand completely what Cindy was dealing with -- the American People haven't the first clue what it means to work hard for something -- to put everything you have into something -- only to realize you are doing it for people who just don't care.

Well -- it's time for things to change. It's time for those who do the real work to be given the credit they deserve -- because real work is being done - even when those who claim to be working are taking the credit they most assuredly do not deserve.

In February we began a project designed to bring real benefit to the soldiers who return so disheartened by the very same issues Cindy has discussed - an American public who never did care about their service.

Our soldiers join -- my husband joined -- because he believed in this country. He felt it his sworn duty to uphold and defend the LAWS of this country -- for it is by following the Constitutional LAW that we are all kept free. But even as he and the soldiers he served with went to war believing in defending our freedoms, we learned that was not what this war was. The American people quickly forgot the reasons our soldiers volunteered to serve -- and became enamored with the issues of the war leaving the humanity and trust of our soldiers by the wayside.

Every single soldier who is now serving, every single veteran who has died in that service -- serves, and has died, in vain until the American people wake up and figure out -- freedom means accepting the responsibility that is theirs -- to live responsibly, with common sense, and with the same commitment to the LAWS of this country and respect for their fellow citizens that they are now trying to hold our government accountable to.

We can work together to make the changes necessary -- but no one has the right to sit back and write letters of support to those on the frontlines of this movement and believe that is work equal to their effort. If that is the belief -- then it is a miserable failure of a belief.

We need the American people to work with us --- we can lay out a plan - we can show what our experiences have taught us is needed -- but we need people who make the promises of committing to help us to actually keep their word.

Kevin and I are asking the American people to stand up -- and to take the action necessary to see that the work gets done.

It is time for action -- of a very real kind.

Only the truly serious need apply -- and we have enough experience to know if you will keep your word.

http://www.BendermanDefense.org http://www.BendermansBridge.com

We need to do this for all those who have given -- and given -- and given -- and did so when they really had nothing left to give.

Monica and Kevin Benderman
info@bendermansbridge.org
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warrior1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Me too
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. Count me in!!
THANK YOU, Cindy. I met you at the original Camp Casey and it was an honor to have met a true American patriot and global voice for peace.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
60. I remember, HP
:)
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fightthegoodfightnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. Agree ..........and thank you for calling the Dem Leadership the Cowards
.......they are.

END THIS WAR NOW.

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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'm Right There With You !!! - K & R !!!
:kick:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
62. Thanks for the K&R
....
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. I support Cindy. And I hope if she needs some time to refuel
that she takes it.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. I can't think of anything she actually accomplished...
Is the Iraq situation "better" now?

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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Ask that of the people who know and have worked with her
Edited on Mon May-28-07 03:06 PM by theHandpuppet
I know she has inspired many thousands just like me to speak out in resistance to this war. Does that not count for something?
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. I don't know...the war isn't showing any signs of stopping.
It gets fucking worse every day.


You tell me...
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
66. It might have gotten worse with no notice of it by Americans watching "Lost"
....
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. She mobilized a host of people and kept this issue in the news.
How much further behind we would be, without her.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. I don't know. How much behinder could we be?
She didn't have any influence on me...I was vociferously against the invasion before I ever heard of her and I've never run into any pro-war people who changed their minds based on her activities. I do know she 'turned off' a lot of people which is a shame but it's a fact of political reality.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. So your advice is?
Edited on Mon May-28-07 04:00 PM by ayeshahaqqiqa
Shut up and smile while Bush rapes the world since to speak out might "turn off" some people? Martin Luther King "turned off" a lot of people when he led the Civil Rights marches; John Quincy Adams "turned off" many of his fellow representatives when he submitted petitions about slavery to the House, disregarding the unconstitutional rule they had put in denying the right of the people to petition.

Exactly what is your plan to stop this illegal war?
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. I wouldn't presume to tell you or anybody else what to do. As for me, I write
a lot of letters to congresspersons. Real actual typed letters on paper. Civil yet forceful...to not only my own reps but all over the country. My own Senator, a Republican actually voted NO on the supplemental bill the other day. Obviously I can't prove it but I would like to think I helped to get that vote.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I've written letters to my congresspeople
since Viet Nam. I'm on a "oh no its her" again list. I also phone them regularly.

But I was hoping you had other plans than this, you know, plans that are better than what Cindy was doing with Camp Casey and all. We all know about letter writing and phoning....and we're still in Iraq.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Yes we are still in Iraq. That is precisely my point. I was in dozens of protests
in the late 1960. They eventually got the public's attention (along with the escalating casualties, of course.)

Something like that is probably and unfortunately the only scenario that WILL work in this case. Look, I never claimed to have the magic answer but that does not preclude me from observing that some things have NOT worked. I don't have to be a chicken to identify a rotten egg.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Now I'm simply confused
you say that protests are probably and unfortunately the only scenario that WILL work in this case. What I see Cindy doing is going to protests--and I'm sure because she is there, others come. So how is this not helping?
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Most Americans only know her for one thing - the Camp Casey thing.
That image was, if wrongfully, perceived as a 'stunt' by most of the people we need to nudge over to our side. It reminded me of the Jane Fonda days...as absolutely right as she was, her actions didn't get much done. She pissed off a lot more people than she converted. Hell's bells, she was even an issue with Kerry, 40 years later! I can't imagine anybody thought it was a good thing for him even without all the swift-boating, lies and vote manipulating...
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Ok, if you say so
I work in a red town in the reddest part of Arkansas. In the course of my job, I talk to a lot of local folks. Remember praise for Bush but nothing said about Camp Casey. Only thing I heard from the locals was she was a communist bent on destroying our President,though none could explain why. I think she would have gotten this reaction if she'd simply lead marches--she was a name the idiot rw hate radio jocks could talk about.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. I am not very far away from you. Red eastern Oklahoma.
And of course I heard the same things which is why I question the efficacy of her tactics, NOT her devotion to a just cause! That perception leads to votes isn't a good thing but it's a real one. I think there's some justification for the party symbols: donkeys are moved best by pushing, elephants by leading. (Ever try to push a pachyderm?) :-)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
67. She helped focus public attention on the war and I'm grateful to her
for that.

If it had been me, I probably would have crawled under a rock from grief. :(
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Try Thinking Harder... Try Thinking, Period...
:wtf:

:banghead:
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Wow, I am desiccated with your amazing wit.
:eyes:
I'll take that as "I can't give you any examples"
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. I Know... Most People Are, And Thanks !!!
I could give you examples, but it would be utterly futile because you already have your mind closed on this and you'd just tell me why my views do not equate to your "take" on her effectiveness. You don't like her, or at least you don't think her methods bore fruit, so my giving you what I think she did accomplish is a big waste of time.

Plus... I don't do other people's homework for them.

Have a great day!

:hi:
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Look, I'm on your side and on Cindy's too. I do NOT dislike her!
I just don't see any tangible results from her actions which do seem theatrical to most people. I know you don't want to hear that but it happens to be a fact. And please don't assume I have a closed mind on this or any other issue. Nobody else has managed to give me any evidence of her doing much to stop the "war", wouldn't you like to be the first? Forgive the obvious comparison, but your comment sounds a lot like the fundies who tell me "I can prove God wrote the Bible but you wouldn't accept my proof anyway..."

104 dead troops in April, 103 so far in May. I guess it's just hard for me to see any improvement regardless of who was working to end the debacle.

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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. I Hear What Your Sayin, But It Takes A Lot Of Raindrops To Make A River...
Did Medgar Evers Or James Meredith or MLK create the Voting Right Act? No, congress passed it and LBJ signed it. Did Evers, Meredith, King, and thousands more help in getting the congress and the president to that point? Of course. Was it easy and fast? Not at all.

Did the Kent State shootings end the Vietnam War? No, but I'll bet you a DU donation that it helped bring a lot more people into the anti-war movement that eventually pressured the folks in power to bring that war to an end.

All I'm saying is that Cindy Sheehan started out as just a regular mom worried about her son going off to a "questionable" war. He didn't make it. She even met with Bush at one point in honor of her fallen son. But the more she looked into it (the war and the lies that got us there), the more she began to question whether his sacrifice was justified. And the more unjustified she found it to be, the more she felt the need to speak out. At the time, most people still were not too comfortable in speaking out. She spoke out, and made more people comfortable in doing so. She made other mothers who were sitting and quietly grieving in there homes feel it OK to join her\our cause. She made national news, embarrassed a sitting president, testified before John Conyers' committee on the Downing Street Memo, and all in all brought another compelling voice into national view.

She contributed (as in tributary in my lame river metaphor) a lot to the movement, in my estimation. And according to Will, it is taking its toll on her health. She may have, to some, seemed naive and unpolished in how she conducted herself in her mission, but to me that just makes her genuine and all the more compelling. We may argue about the size of her contribution to ending this war, but contribute she did. Way more than most, in fact.

:shrug:


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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
78. "Dried out"?
?
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Cause and Effect ...

We won't know what she accomplished for years, maybe decades.

Ever heard the name Martin Delany? Without googling, that is ...

I guarantee you a lot of people involved in the Civil Rights movements of the 1960's knew the name, even though he'd been dead for over half a century. He never accomplished what he initially set out to do, but he was a link in a chain.

It's all about the chain.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Excellent point, Roy. n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
83. Yes!
...
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. So if the Iraq "war" ends after half a century, it's proof of her influence?
:eyes:
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. No ...
Edited on Mon May-28-07 03:27 PM by RoyGBiv
Nothing so complex as proof in a historical context can be so simply stated, especially prima facie.

But if people are using Cindy Sheehan's name in political literature, speeches, etc. half a century from now, that is proof she had an influence on the people using it. What I said is "we do not know." Maybe she is having no influence. Maybe she is. The fact so much discussion surrounds her suggests she is defeinitely having an influence of some variety. What kind of influence that is *will not be known* for years.

Just as Martin Delany had an influence on black nationalism, Civil Rights activists, etc. They invoked his name and his struggles and the fact that almost everyone, even those who supposedly claimed then to agree with the ideological principles he espoused, denounced him.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Yes, I'd never discount the possibility of a legacy but I won't be around
for anything like 50 more years and unfortunately neither will most likely a few thousand much younger troops.
I wonder how many of them are anxious to trade their futures for a possible historical recollection of Ms. Sheehan in the year 2057? I never heard of Martin Delany - if he had been all that useful it would seem he would or should be better known. You might keep in mind that even now fully equal civil rights are far from completely achieved.

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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. What matters ...
Edited on Mon May-28-07 03:56 PM by RoyGBiv
What matters is the influence the individual had, not whether the individual had fame. The recording of history is one thing. The events that lead to other events, recorded or not, is another.

Among those who study the evolution of black nationalism, Civil Rights, etc. the name Martin Delany is well-known. You'll even find references to the "Delany school of thought." That you or I or anyone else isn't casually aware of this means little.

Apparently, according to one recent poll, one-third of Americans don't even know who the current Vice-President is. Is this evidence of his lack of influence? How many people really know who Andrew Johnson was and his influence on the course of Reconstruction? How many know Helen Keller's involvement in and influence on labor and women's rights? How many of the top people involved in forming the foundation of the equal rights among the genders are known to you, and if you don't know them, does that discount their influence? In short, does your personal knowledge or "common knowledge" have any relationship to the reality of events as they unfold and who or what is shaping them?

What I know of history, historical memory, and the evolution of recorded history has taught me one very basic thing. Common knowledge is only common, not knowledge.

I won't be around in 50 years either, which, to me, means I don't have much of a right to say positively whether Cindy Sheehan has accomplished anything with a lasting meaning. She has certainly accomplished one very glaring thing. She got a lot of people talking about war dissent in the mainstream media at a time when almost no one was. It was largely bad press, but since that time, we have, collectively, done a lot more than we were doing then, and the press isn't *all* bad any longer. Did she have an influence on that? I instinctively believe she did, but I do not know it. I cannot know it. That also means I cannot discount the possibility.



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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. Your points are all well taken. I'm not patient and I'm not a detail guy, I want results.
All I know to use as a measuring stick -right now- is the ongoing carnage that doesn't appear to be converging on any desirable result. One thing I do know is that a lot of people in my neck of the woods paid ONLY enough attention to Cindy's public actions to conclude she was just "another anti-war kook" (to use their malconceived words.) I think we DUers tend to forget we aren't like a great many uninformed citizens...we are the "choir", so to speak. We have to tip a lot of fence-sitters and change a few minds as well, and I'm not convinced she managed to do it to any degree commensurate with all her efforts. That's all I'm saying.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Pebbles in a pool ...

I hate to keep using cliche's, but they fit. I can give you one solid example. I'd never been to a public political protest of any variety before I heard of Cindy Sheehan. She inspired my lazy ass to get up and drive to Crawford. What did that accomplish? You'd have to know me better to understand completely, but I can summarize by saying the experience made me more vigilant than I was, more willing not just to sit here at work at take it when the asshat across the room started spouting his neo-con drivel, and I also made a point from that moment of keeping my daughter aware of events that were flying right past her since no one in her immediate circle of friends or adult influences were doing anything to do so. That's influence, positive concrete influence, in my own little corner of the world, and it means something to me and those around me. It's a pebble in a pool of water radiating outward.

Believe it or not, I do know what you're saying. I just don't think you're looking at the bigger picture. This is the age of immediate gratification, instant results, knowing who won an election in minutes rather than months. We want answers now, dammit, and we want them solid.

Such incredibly complex issues as war don't work like that and never have. It took twelve years and millions dead to remove Adolf Hitler from power, longer than that if we go back to his emergence as an influence on politics and social and cultural movements generally. More than half that time was spent just trying to convince people he was even a threat, and it started with people who were dead long before anything they tried to do had any tangible results. And, yes, his influence is still there, but it is muted, not what it would have been had people not been willing to stand up in the beginning to start organizing resistance.



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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Maybe it's just that I'm getting old and even more impatient!
:D

I just don't want this goddamn "war" to outlive -me-, know what I mean?

After Viet Nam, I actually thought it surely would be the last quagmire. But I was a lot younger and still had a half-full glass, I guess.

It's just about empty now. :-(
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. Me, too. I am sick and tired of waiting for the TV-drugged American people to WAKE UP!
It can get very frustrating.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #63
95. I think we're all tired ...
Edited on Mon May-28-07 10:03 PM by RoyGBiv
And I'm very frustrated. Blame for the narcoleptic public, however, can be pointed in a number of directions, but the least number of pointers should go to people who are out there gathering attention every day.

Cindy is more tired than we are for many reasons, not the least of which is that she lost a son, stood up and demanded people pay attention to this horror show, and then soundly started getting criticized for it by people who *should* be on her side.

The question to ask -- and difficult to answer -- is where we'd be if not for people like her who, when those who supported the war were still in the majority, stood up. Yeah, we're still in a bad spot, but *more* of the public is now aware of what is happening that was two years ago. The problem -- or one of the problems -- is that most of them are still sitting on couches in their comfy living rooms and not really doing anything.

And this isn't directed at you, really ... just rambling some more based on reading other comments and not wanting to respond to every one of them.





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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. I agree with that. I can't imagine how frustrated she gets by the "American Idol" crowd
It drives me CRAZY how little people see. But then again, they are being pacified by television
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
36. Again, my question to you
what are YOU doing to stop the war? Since you don't think Cindy was effective, you must have some idea that you feel will stop the war in short order. I'd like to hear it to pass it on to others.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Of course you can't
:eyes:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
33. Turn that question on the Democrats
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. You don't think her inspiring the anti-war movement
which, in turn, worked their tails off to get Dems elected in 2006 was anything? It was because of folks like her that Bush was forced to have an Iraq Study Group--whose recommendations Bush is finally considering.

What have you done to inspire folks to work for peace?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
111. Like it was up to her to end the war?
Don't you get it? ONE person can't do it all. And hostile DUers like YOU are the reason she chose to resign. Good grief, why are you even here? Welcome to my ignore list.
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
118. She accomplished this
She will be able to look her children in the eye and tell them truthfully that she tried her very best to practice right action against the fruitless practice of men calling for the killing of others. She can sleep well knowing she did her best and tried her hardest. That is all a person is charged to do, but each and every one of us is charged to do that. And most of us in this country ignore that charge due to misplaced faith, ignorance, or just downright laziness.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. Always have, always will.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. it is heartening ...
it is heartening to see so many I respect so deeply on DU come out time and again not just to make the right call but to do so with such eloquence.

k&r ...
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
64. :) (Or is someone else being eloquent?)
:D
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. Agreed 100% n/t
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. Do you also support her implicit encouragement to leave the Democratic Party?
Did you ever stop to think maybe she NEEDS to stop working for peace?

That maybe she needs to find a different method of working for peace?

One that is rewarding? One that gives her strength and doesn't leave her weakened?

People who are doing their life's work the way the Universe intends aren't depleted by the effort. They are regenerated.

Maybe, just maybe, overreacting to some posts on DU is a sign she was looking for an excuse to take a break from public life?

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Decruiter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
20. Here's to one of the best!
Edited on Mon May-28-07 03:49 PM by Decruiter
A model to us all in passionate protest, the Energizer Bunny of speaking truth to power,
globe-trotting ambassador of our disgust of war, especially one built on lies.
More especially, where she was the walking wounded, the literal torch-bearer of the ghost of her son.

I cannot fault her message or her media. She's inspirational. She's a leader. One of rare, real virtue.
The lightning bolts she absorbed from opponents came with the job.

I'll miss her.




(November 2005) Hugging Daniel Ellsburg in Crawford Texas
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
71. Great pic
:kick:
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
25. Redux ...

I've been through this before, so I'll just repeat myself ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
29. My party is Peace
for that is the only way to go. If the Democrats wish to take up the mantle of Peace, they have to EARN it.

I admire you, Cindy, and want you to know that this DUer has always admired your courage and outspokenness.

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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
38. I support everything Cindy has done.
I was privileged to meet some of the people from Camp Casey who traveled around the country back in 2005 (Cindy was elsewhere that day), and I have nothing but respect for the sacrifices they made.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
81. Me, too.
....
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
39. Agreed n/t
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
46. I support Cindy
And I hope she gets the well earned rest she needs.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
48. I support Cindy!
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Fox Mulder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
53. I agree too.
:toast: Cindy!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
55. Nominated.
I'll support whatever decision she makes. But I sure do hope that, after taking a bit of time off, that she continues in her anti-war efforts.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Thank you
...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #56
72. Being in the
public eye can be draining. Having to take shit from people who have agendas or who really just don't "get" what she is saying has to wear her out. And that is on top of losing her son.

Like a number of people, I can appreciate that many DUers are not going to agree with her every word and/or action. It should not be expected that people are going to think and act just alike. Any time two people think exactly alike, it means only one is thinking.

I admire that this lady has had the inner strength to try her hardest to do battle with a aministration that really feels no sense of guilt about the death of her son. And this lady has attempted to confront a machine that feels no compassion for her suffering.

She is the type of person that I believe makes the United States a better place to live.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. I agree. She was fighting some of the greatest evil there is out there
And when the Dem leadership went along and supported the war, it did to her what it did to a lot of us. I know I felt betrayed. How much worse it must have been for Cindy, who has pushed herself beyond her endurance.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
57. Count me in.
I cried along with a Gold Star mom today. All those dead for no good reason, and our own Democratic leadership to blame as well.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
58. I support Cindy
You are a hero Cindy.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
59. I suggest everyone read Janx's post and follow the directions
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. And check this out
http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.m...

(This is the user who posted the thread in question.)
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #61
69. Thanks For That. No Doubt In My Mind Anymore. I Forwarded That Link To The Mods Through An Alert
on that original OP.

What a tool.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Hey, I'm glad it helped.
Janx did a great job with all that. :)
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
65. Shameless kick
To mess with the trolls, if nothing else. :)
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
68. Kicking in protest of people still posting on that goddamned thread
If you're a DUer, use your brain and don't bump that piece of crap thread. Let the trolls do their own dirty work.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
75. KIck
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. Ouch!
:evilgrin:
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
77. Rest up, Cindy, and take care of yourself.
My friends and I have always supported you, and will continue to do so.

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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
79. I hope Cindy gets some long-needed
rest. She deserves some time to take care of herself and spend time with her family.

I know she will always work for peace...that's her nature.

Cindy, we care so much for you. Get some rest...The Universe has some funny ways of changing our world. There's no getting away from Karma, right?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. Me, too.
Someone suggested that it was time for her to refuel and I think that's wise.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #80
115. I hope Cindy knows that these so-called
'progressives' who are insulting her could be Repugnants....unfortunately, I don't think that is the case.

There are many sexist 'progressive' males on the Left. Many of them simply cannot handle a woman who is a Leader. It shows their immense insecurity.

I hope Cindy knows how much she is admired and loved....and to focus on that instead of the Fragile-egoed males who offer childish insults displaying nothing but a lack of self-confidence and petty jealousy.

Cindy Rocks!
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
82. KnR.Gods bless you, Cindy Sheehan.It was an honor to meet you at Arlington West.Rest, heal, balance.
Many people are on your side, and though dark the night we shall live to see better days.

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

Hekate

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Amen.
....
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
85. I agree, too
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Cobalt-60 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
86. Me too : She's been on the front line for years
Time for a little leave.
As far as her affiliation with the Democratic Party, I can hardly blame her.
I personally have a Republicons First policy. I views their open treason as a far greater threat than the corporate whoring of certain Democrats.
The Democratic Party is at this moment the only instrument we have with which to fight the 'cons.
This may not always be the case.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Yes she has
I hope she continues to work for peace
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
88. YO !!!
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
89. well, SOME
Edited on Mon May-28-07 10:10 PM by themartyred
on DU think she can't recuperate and she's needs to go rest, but I say, she's always going to have the passion to fight these bastards til the day she dies. And to the COUNTLESS others who show idiocy and have said in response to her statement of leaving the Democratic party for backing down on what they were elected to do (they WERE elected to do this in case you forget, in a sweeping surprise of both houses of Congress), that she shouldn't let the door hit her on the way out, or saying bye toots!, well, on behalf of the people that have listened to her amazing speeches and her amazing fight (and believe me, sitting in heat protesting the president right outside his home is an AMAZING fight!) and all the threats and crude words thrown her way about herself and her son dying, well, on behalf of ME - you naysayers and cruel jerks who think it's cute to call her "toots", can correct your horrible judgment of her and APOLOGIZE to her!

www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<-- check it out, top '08 stuff
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. Amen, the martyred
Amen.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #91
98. thank you, love! Amen to your OP! n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #98
114. Shucks...
:blush:
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
90. I support Cindy Sheehan
For Cindy, this is not about politics. This is about having her heart ripped out for no good reason and a pack of lies.

She believes what happened to her should happen to no other mother.

Well, I agree with her.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
92. I agree, Nikki. n/t
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unkachuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
97. me too....n/t
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
99. This war is wrong from the get go. Totally amoral criminal enterprise.
It was based on a lie -- and the biggest lie of all was 9/11 itself.

We should not be involved in this war and any politician who does not actively oppose it -- well, what can I say? I have no respect for them what so ever. Enough of the lies -- I don't care whose mouth they are coming out of and what prestige or votes they might loose if they tell the truth. Only the truth can break the spell now.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #99
116. Absolutely. The war is about corporations getting their hands on resources
It's globalization run amok.
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Ava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
100. let her know!
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La_Fourmi_Rouge Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
102. Cindy is a TRUE American Hero.
God Bless you, Mrs. Sheehan!
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
103. i support cindy too. n/t
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
104. I support Cindy Sheehan
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
105. I support Cindy as well.
I hope she come back after a rest.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 05:10 AM
Response to Original message
106. Amen.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
107. I support Cindy she's been a true hero...
...although not abandoning the Democratic ship just yet. They leave a lot to be desired but the people have the power to mould them to the party they desire.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
108. I absolutely agree. On the other hand, tar & feathers would
be entirely appropriate for the democrats who betrayed Cindy & us last week.
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jarnocan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
109. AGREE here is an article by Dede Casey's aunt BTW
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
112. I support Cindy,
Edited on Tue May-29-07 07:32 AM by Le Taz Hot
I support Code Pink, I'll support any person, group or entity that works toward getting us out of this immoral, illegal fascist occupation of a sovereign country. I quit the Democrats in 2004. Welcome, Cindy, we are a fast-growing club. Now, if the Democrats decide to start REPRESENTING US and be an actual OPPOSITION PARTY, then I, and I'm sure the millions who are re-registering OUT of the Democratic party now, will be happy to come back to the fold.

In the meantime, country before party!!!!
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
113. Thank You for all you've done, Cindy Sheehan!!!
I absolutely support Cindy Sheehan!!!

:kick: & Recommended!!

GOLD STAR FAMILIES FOR PEACE
http://www.gsfp.org/article.php?id=85

FOUNDING MEMBERS

Cindy Sheehan: Her son Army Spc. Casey A. Sheehan was KIA in Sadr City Baghdad on April 4 2004

Pat Sheehan : His son Army Spc. Casey A. Sheehan was KIA in Sadr City Baghdad on April 4 2004

Jane and Jim Bright: Jane's son Army Sgt. Evan Ashcraft was KIA in Mosul Iraq on July 24 2003

Bill Mitchell: Bill's son Army Sgt. Michael Mitchell was KIA in Sadr City Baghdad on April 4 2004

Dede Miller: Army Spc. Casey Sheehans Auntie

And sadly; many, many more members....

:hug:


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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
119. I support Cindy also
but I also heard that frustration that she had in that letter. I don't blame her for being frustrated.
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-29-07 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
120. I think most of us do
But Cindy Sheehan has given more for longer than anyone should have to and if she's weary of it, I can't really blame her.
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