Forced abortions in China, 8 months into pregnancy

[babsbunny]

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/299245

Xiamen - The one-child policy in China leads to an estimated 13 million known abortions annually, and many of these are performed on orders given by family planning officials. The video posted by Al Jazeera appeared first on a Chinese version of Twitter.
Reporting for Al Jazeera, Melissa Chan writes that the parents involved in this illegal pregnancy that led to a legal abortion of an eight-month-old fetus do not know how the story of their misfortune made it to the Internet. She says:

Luo Yan Qua and Xiao Ai Ying do not know how their story got posted on the internet. They were too distraught and shocked to have even considered reaching out to media as an option.

[alphafemale]

1. That's not abortion. That's murder. And it is anti-choice.

[BlueIris]

2. Ohhhh, good luck. There are far too many alleged progressives

on this website and others who rationalize this misogynist policy on the grounds that China's population levels are unsustainable. I've also encountered more than a few folks (voting Democrats) who are a-okay with the idea of such a policy being enforced in this country (for alleged "environmental reasons.")

It'll be interesting, and depressing, to see the responses this thread gets.

[Duchess]

4. Agreed...

It's shitty all around. We do need to get a handle on our population (and right quick) but the Chinese method is unacceptable. It is probably very effective at reducing population growth but it trashes civil liberties.

We need to come up with a solution now so that we aren't forced into corner where we'll be forced into a similar situation.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. "We do need to get a handle on our population" - we do?

That's funny. Because in countries with high standards of living, good medical care, personal autonomy and access to contraception, birth rates limit themselves.

There IS NO 'population problem' in this country. Or Western Europe. Or Japan.

[Duchess]

9. Exactly...

not yet.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. No, see, between the pill and Roe v. Wade, it dropped below replacement rate.

Which is what happens. When people with a high standard of living and a high degree of personal freedom and autonomy have access to contraception and reproductive rights. There is no "not yet". The 'problem', such as it is, manages itself.

[Duchess]

40. It's drifting back up though...

a negative trend would be preferable.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. Since 1973, it has been below replacement rate.

In that time, it has hovered between 1.5 and 2. The "upward drift" you account for is probably something between 1.7 and 2. Hardly an alarming trend, and nothing compared to the dramatic drop it took between 1955 and 1975.

It's not a crisis, and it's not something that anyone "needs to do something about".

[Duchess]

47. It doesn't make sense...

to wait for a crisis in order to act. We should try to be much further from the replacement rate for several generations then when we are at around 200 million we should start working back to replacement rates where the population stabilizes at around 150 million. This will result in a better quality of life for everyone and fewer demands placed on the environment in order to support our population.

[Crunchy Frog]

49. When you do that you end up with a massive population of elderly people

with very few young people of working age to support the elderly and keep the economy going. China is looking at that dillemma down the road.

Most of the population growth in this country is from immigration and not reproduction, BTW.

[Warren DeMontague]

54. Or, we could let people run their own lives.

Shocking proposal, I know.

[Duchess]

55. agreed...

It's just sad to see so many people have so little foresight. But I agree people should run their own lives. Most people just run them into the ground with babies.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. I guess where you and I disagree is on whether people will make good choices if given the tools and

freedom.

I think the pronounced plummet in birthrates during the period from the pill to Griswold to Roe, pretty clearly proves that people are more than capable of managing their own affairs. Certainly, anyone who doesn't want kids shouldn't have them.

I don't quite get the disjointed irritation expressed frequently in some parts around here with the people that happily do, however. :shrug:

Off the subject, I'm eagerly awaiting the 2nd Season of Archer. :thumbsup:

[Duchess]

63. Your right

I was just going a little bit overboard.

Yes, can't wait for season 2.

[Warren DeMontague]

6. Another case of "I'm pro choice, as long as I'm the one who makes the choice for everyone".

Other people making choices I don't agree with, not so much. :eyes:

[tammywammy]

12. This just would-be be DU without it. n/t

[Iggo]

57. -

:rofl:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. It's not abortion after the fetus is viable...

And at eight months, it IS viable.

This is horrifying, and terribly, terribly wrong.

As the first poster said: this is murder.

[Kurovski]

5. The ten year old daughter was looking forward to a brother.

the father doesn't know what to tell her.


If China is growing prosperous what's the damn problem in loosening up and allowing more than one kid? It's a huge nation.

And they're on their way to cleaner energy than we are.

[lightningandsnow]

8. This is anti-choice.

Choice means choice, folks.

[Kurovski]

10. Yes. Good underscore. (nt)

[Odin2005]

18. +1

[OnionPatch]

42. Absolutely.

[Hekate]

11. This is what totalitarian regimes do: remove choice from individuals, especially women.

Hearken: both Nazi Germany and the USSR (iirc -- based on research I did several years ago) made abortion available and legal, but restricted access to contraceptives that women could use. This allowed the State to decide at its whim to remove access to abortion and increase population thereby.

This is just one reason that legal, affordable, reliable female contraception must form the basis of family planning and fertility control for all women. Bedrock.

China has a very serious population problem and has had for quite a few years. There is no dispute that they need to deal with it -- it's just that the methods they have chosen are those of a totalitarian regime. Those of us in the West who are interested in family planning/women's fertility/choice issues have known for some 20 years that the One Child Policy in China has been enforced with draconian measures, including forced abortions, including forced late-term abortions.

There are a lot of consequences to China's One Child Policy. One is that since boys are favored, there is now quite an imbalance between males and females in the under-30 population. Another consequence is the number of female "orphans" (read: abandoned) that have made their way into the West for adoption.

This thread should be quite flamey when I return later....

Hekate

[Odin2005]

19. In a Tom clancy book I've read one of these forced abortions causes a war between...

...China and a Russia-NATO alliance after the Vatican ambassador tries to stop the abortion and is killed, causing worldwide outrage.

[TicketyBoo]

62. I've been saying for years

that girls will be very valuable to their families in years to come, when all these "preferred" sons need wives. It's tradition that sons care for parents in their old age, so the preference is understandable, but it is not going to be pretty when these sons start seeking wives and a large percentage of the Chinese girls who would have been those wives have been adopted by Westerners.

[CountAllVotes]

13. this story show how barbaric China is

>> Once her illegal pregnancy was detected, Xiao Ai Ying, who has one previous child, the pregnant mother was dragged -- kicking and screaming -- out of her own home by family planning authorities who were accompanied by police officers. In an interview, the husband and father also says that police kicked his wife in the stomach, possibly to induce a miscarriage. Next, they took her to a hospital in the city of Xiamen, where her soon-to-be-born child was killed by a lethal injection while still in her body.
In China, the birth of a second child is illegal, a crime for which mothers often have to pay a fine, starting with $1 for the very poor yet sometimes up to $40,000. Some women may also be subsequently sterilised. It is not known at this point whether or not Xiao Ai Ying will have other punishments than the macabre one of having her baby killed inside her own womb.

*****************

MURDER YES and God only knows what else these HUMAN BEINGS have done to her! :( :( :(

:kick:

[readmoreoften]

25. Yes, they are the barbarians who make all your stuff. And the women are also barbarians, so why be

concerned? They're just barbaric women in a barbaric culture :sarcasm:

[WinkyDink]

38. You might "readmoreoften," but not, apparently, well.

[tammywammy]

14. Disgusting.

That poor woman to have her baby murdered like that. And since it's china there's no telling how often this happens. There's no reason for china to have a one child rule.

[WinkyDink]

15. Well, SOME of us posted elsewhere that some cultures are more (or less) ethical than others.

[lightningandsnow]

22. Because forcing people to carry to term and give birth is totally ethical!

Jesus H. Christ. This is fucking awful, but you'd never make that statement because abortion is illegal in Ireland, for example. No, it's always the "savage" people of colour. Every time somebody makes this argument, they inevitably say white European/settler state cultures are more ethical than others. Also, here in North America, there's a history of coerced abortions and sterilizations of indigenous women and women of colour, so how about no.

[readmoreoften]

24. +1. Racist claptrap in a progressive veneer is unacceptable.

[apocalypsehow]

27. Baloney - have you even bothered to read the OP?

:shrug:

:eyes:

[WinkyDink]

36. Well, la-di-da.

[apocalypsehow]

26. Abortion is not illegal in Ireland in 2010 - and hasn't been for a while.

You need to educate yourself before you post. It helps in the credibility area. :thumbsup:

[Warren DeMontague]

31. No, that's not ethical either. nt

[WinkyDink]

35. I live in the US, not (straw-man) Ireland. Start a thread on Ireland, and I'll read your post.

[Crunchy Frog]

16. I'm more impressed with the responses here than the ones on the "Choice" forum.

Over there is seems that outrage is only acceptable over some violations of free choice and not others.

[BlueIris]

21. I stopped posting in the "Choice" forum almost immediately after its inception.

Far too many posters in there are just as misogynist as the pro-life psychopaths they claim to oppose, for different reasons.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. I went to check it out- and I'm about as pro choice as anyone can be- and I feel like barfing.

Calling the woman who was forced to terminate a "drama queen". Unbe-fucking-lievable.

Choice means Choice. That doesn't mean choice to do what I would do, choice to do what I think you should do, choice to do what will mean fewer kids for me to have to listen to in the restaurant- choice means CHOICE. And calling a woman upset over a forced abortion a "drama queen"?

:puke:

[iris27]

50. That's a pretty blatant mischaracterization of most of the posters over there.

The "drama queen" nonsense is ONE person. Everyone else is saying exactly what you are - choice means choice.

[Warren DeMontague]

53. Yeah, and that one post made me want to barf. Is everyone else there responding appropriately?

"Drama queen"? Really?

I didn't characterize anyone, I was talking about that one post. I would hope most of the posters in "Choice" would be pro-choice.

Frankly, I'm astounded if it's still up. I haven't checked.

[WildEyedLiberal]

64. No, that whole thread is two vile posters poo-poohing the mother's pain

It's disgusting and a disgrace to DU. I'm shocked this thread is going so "well," frankly.

[Odin2005]

17. As someone who was born 2 months premature, this HORRIFIES me.

These women want the baby and don't have a deformed, non-viable fetus, this is murder.

[proteus_lives]

23. Horrible.

[readmoreoften]

28. How come I never see recs concerned about the mass deaths of the Chinese workers,

mostly kids, who make the sneakers and iPods and mardi gras beads. Yes, forced abortion is terrible. The Chinese government is terrible. But I see a load of crocodile tears here. Women forced into abortions--monstrous! Women forced into dangerous slave labor conditions working 14-16 hours a day with "punishments" for the US and Chinese elite's profits--nothing to get too riled up about.

It's all terrible. Let's not pick and choose our moral outrages too carelessly.

[apocalypsehow]

29. The only phony moral outrage I've seen expressed in this OP is in your own replies to it. n/t.

[Warren DeMontague]

32. Yes, but.. yes, but.. yes, but..

You want to see outrage on those topics, start the thread. Maybe you should ask yourself why it bugs you so much to see outrage on this, that you need to complain about it.

[WinkyDink]

37. How come you don't start a thread? And BTW: Follow your own advice; it works both ways there, too.

[Township75]

39. Simple...we own Ipods and sneakers and other Chinese items, therefore

we can't condemn them and feel good about ourselves.

Condemning actions that won't influence your standard of living is a great way to show what a wonderful person you are, and it saves you from having to condemn things that would impact your standard of living....so what if a few people kill themselves just so you can have your ipod and iphone. It's worth it for you comfort!

[Crunchy Frog]

48. Yes because it's not possible to be outraged by more than one thing.

Why don't you go start a thread on that topic and let people on this thread discuss this topic.:eyes:

[grahamhgreen]

30. Promote proper birth control.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. How about promoting the concept of choice?

As in, people decide for themselves?

Wow, what a notion.

[grahamhgreen]

43. When you overpopulate your planet to the point your killing off the rest of the world's species

you've already made your choice

[Warren DeMontague]

45. The so-called "population problem" isn't real, and at best limited to specific geographic locations.

But let's be absolutely, 100% clear: Not only are you making this argument in the context of a forced abortion in China, you are unequivocally stating that you are anti-choice. You think some central authority should be in charge of peoples' reproductive decisions.

Right?

[grahamhgreen]

51. I believe there should be incentives not to have children

When you end hunger and starvation, perhaps an argument that the world is not overpopulated may have some basis in reality

[Warren DeMontague]

52. Certain PARTS of the world are overpopulated.

If you live in Niger or Guinea-Bissou, yes, there is a population problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_fertility_rate



If you're talking about people who have kids in the US, you're grinding an axe against a non-existent problem.

[WildEyedLiberal]

60. Incentives such as ripping a ripping a full term baby out of its mother?

Is this really the best thread for you to talk about population control?

[Warren DeMontague]

61. I saw someone in another thread sympathize with James Lee's "frustration"

see, it's because of the fairness doctrine, that these totally legitimate misanthropic anti-breeder rants don't get airtime!

That was classic.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

65. "The so-called 'population problem' isn't real"

Wow. Just wow. :crazy:

[backscatter712]

41. This is why we emphasize we're PRO-CHOICE, not pro-abortion. n/t

[laughingliberal]

46. Full equality for women, including full control of their reproduction is the only moral answer.

Anything less is immoral and that includes here, China, or anywhere else.

Choice does mean choice and a society where women are equal would support it.

[HEyHEY]

59. Well,

I would say, due to women in China becoming more and more career oriented and adventurous that, in China, men would likely oppose the one-child policy more than women. For men, having a bunch of kids is status and the chance for more sons...etc. I think many young women here now have their eyes set on things besides children until around 30 and so don't think about the policy too much.

[HEyHEY]

58. If this becomes big enough news in China, those responsible will be punished

The one child policy isn't as draconian as it once was when it comes to enforcement. I have a feeling this woman was targeted specifically for some reason. I know many people with more than one child who paid the fine and carried on with their lives without hassle.

So much in this country comes down to connections and vendettas that I can only see that as the reason this happened.

[Marengo]

66. Apparently, if both parents are the product of the one child policy,

They may request permission to have a second child. My wife's cousin did, and permission was granted but what the criteria are I do not know.

[HEyHEY]

67. My girlfriend's sister has three kids

THREE! Paid the fine for one and fake the death of the other... no, I'm not kidding.