A concise history of black-white relations in US of A (CARTOON)

[No Passaran]

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yurbud]

2. it's a cartoon. it's good as far as it goes. it also left out raping the back guy's sister

To make more backs to stand on.

[MellowDem]

5. I suppose in that "form"

it can only explain so much, but it still does it pretty poorly in my mind. I've seen cartoons sum up history much better. This one just seems ignorant, accusatory, and trying to be divisive. And the fact that it seems to try to justify affirmative action at the end is pretty sad, considering how totally failed that policy has been, because, once again, it's not just about race, it ultimately is about economics. If you have an unfair class-based society, the caste system will stay in place. Then again, I've seen this cartoon before and am not sure how old it is, so maybe AA was a new concept at the time. We've seen since then it is just a band-aid and at worst used as a way for institutions to claim "diversity".

[Hannah Bell]

3. there's no comparison between "other immigrant groups" & blacks

it's true that black/white = divide & conquer, but the cartoon is right on, & your false equivalence isn't.

in fact, your story is "too simplistic"

[MellowDem]

7. So whites got to where they were...

on the backs of black people, even though that statement is false in many ways as a general idea even (this isn't simplistic, right?) but Asians got to where they are... on what? Hmm. I wasn't making a comparison, I was pointing out that it's not all about race or even historical discrimination. The cartoon would be more right on if it even included economics in it, but it does not, and in that sense is "too simplistic". But that's always been the problem in the US. Racial divisions are easily seen, but class divisions are things that just aren't talked about. The Tea Party sees the world as this cartoon paints it. It's blacks vs whites. It's all about identity politics and race. Just keep class out of the discussion, because that's what they want.

[Hannah Bell]

8. whites as a group in some ways benefited from having a scapegoated group beneath them, yes.

my point, however, which you chose to ignore, was that there is no possible comparison between black people in america and "immigrant groups" in america generally.

when you try to make that comparison & say other "immigrant groups" did better, you are indeed practicing identity politics.

[MellowDem]

12. I didn't ignore it...

I just told you I wasn't making a direct comparison, as you are implying I was. I'm just pointing out that it's not so simple, as you yourself are pointing out by saying that there are many differences and other factors that effect such things.

I'm just stating a fact that Asians have done better than whites in many ways, even as a discriminated minority. Sure there are many differences, but still, it shows that other factors are at work, which this cartoon chooses to ignore. And the real point of my bringing up Asians wasn't to compare them to blacks, just to show the complexity of the history.

The problem according to this cartoon is that if only those mean old whites would stop being racists or heartless things would be great for blacks. But the truth is most whites are not like that already, and even if all whites were just happy go lucky and chill, it wouldn't change the system that is in place which keeps those who are in poverty there and even grows the ranks of the impoverished. Affirmative Action policies (which the cartoon seems to be championing) have been in effect for a while now, and nothing has changed. That's because the fundamental problem is not being addressed. The problem is our economic system and the almost complete lack of class awareness. There is a lot of race awareness, we see that every day. The tea partiers want a race war. We want a class war.

The problem is not "whites", it's the current economic system we have in place.

[uncommon]

9. White privilege exists because of this history, so yes. It benefits whites who are not

descended from slave owners just as racism hurts blacks who are not descended from slaves.

I agree with you that the main problem in our modern society is economic, not racial, but these things still matter.

[MellowDem]

13. Well, it obviously didn't benefit them very much...

since Asians have surpassed whites in many categories. So how much does it really matter? Not much by the look of it.

[Hannah Bell]

14. & whites "surpass" blacks in all categories. but your entire schtick *is* identity politics,

comparing by racial identity.

"asians" may have "surpassed" "whites," but e.g. cambodian-americans are one of the poorest groups in the us.

you seem to like identity politics as long as the comparisons make the point you want to make.

[MellowDem]

18. These are facts...

unless saying blacks are disproportionally impoverished is also "identity politics". And it is useful to look at facts. Whites surpass blacks in all categories, but this cartoon doesn't explain it all and misses a lot.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

19. This cartoon is phenolphthalein.

If you remember your high school chemistry you'll get why.

[Kweli4Real]

4. It is true that ...

some whites were hurt by slavery ... but what about the nearly 100 years following slavery ... all of which were a vestiage of the institution.

[MellowDem]

10. Sure, some whites benefitted substantially...

but all? I think the idea of claiming racial debts or privileges is just too far out there and not helpful to resolving any problems. I mean, you could say that all Americans not Native American benefitted from the near-extinction of Native Americans in some way. Or that all Americans benefit currently from cheap labor from Mexico (even as some American labor is hurt) or the horrible slave and child labor practices of Asia with the cheap products we buy. Do African Americans owe the Chinese for that? And if they did, how would they "pay" them back? I don't think the question is "what race owes who". The question to be asked is how to fundamentally change the current system so that there is not such inequities.

Even if we could somehow charge one race with some sort of evil as a whole and give some sort of monetary value to another, (and this would require a lot of races to owe eachother if you go back far enough), it wouldn't solve anything in the long run, because the same system is still in place. We'd still have a huge amount of poverty, lots of people dying unneccesarily from a lack of health care, billions spent on war, etc. etc. and you'd no doubt have even more racial competition and unease as it becomes all about what group gets what part of the pie.

And as you can tell, even with the 100 years after slavery, the rule of Jim Crow and racism didn't do whites in the South many favors. Just look at what states are the worst off and have the highest poverty rates for whites. Racism didn't seem to benefit them very much. Of course, racism doesn't benefit anyone except for those at the top who can divide and conquer. Indeed, racism and ignorance keeps many poor and working class whites voting against their best interests consistently, so it is still detrimental to poor whites, as it always has been.

[jpgray]

6. "Hey, asians did okay"--talk about too simplistic!

While many groups were and are vulnerable to horrible racism and class discrimination, slavery destroyed not only dignity and opportunity, but the most basic family structure and all associated cultural stability. Blacks lost almost every significant support available to other immigrant groups, and it isn't clear that time has rendered that difference moot.

Anyway, "why aren't you as good as the asians" skips over so much of significance that it's almost meaningless--one could start almost anywhere in pointing out problems with the phrase. What, for example, do you mean by "asians?" Are the Hmong included there?

[MellowDem]

11. They haven't just done 'OK'...

they have surpassed whites in many categories, the dominant group who, theroetically, historically benefitted and in some ways still benefit from discrimination and their majority position. And yet one of those historically discriminated groups (and still in some ways) have surpassed whites even. I'm not making a direct comparison, I'm just pointing out there are more factors at work than just whites stepping on blacks. You make good points that I agree with over why there could be such differences.

My question was not "why aren't blacks as good as Asians?" though. I was just introducing the fact that Asians have done well to point out how it is not so simple as to where races are in relation to eachother. Of course it is simplistic to talk about "Asians" when there are so many groups. But of course you can say the same about "whites" and "blacks".

[Hannah Bell]

15. the op isn't about "races". it's about white & black & the history of that relation.

& so far as it goes, the cartoon is right on.

[MellowDem]

20. That seems to be about races to me...

and IMHO does a disservice in how it is not accurate and divisive. There are many reasons historically why blacks are the most proportionally impoverished group, but why they remain to be so, year after year, has mostly to do with the economic system, where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Considering blacks were already poor, due to a history of discrimination, under the current system we can only expect them (and most everyone else except the top 2%) to get poorer. Blaming "whites" alone is innaccurate, divisive, and counterproductive.

[Hannah Bell]

22. not about "races" in general, not about asians. about a specific piece of history & accurate.

yes, there are historical reasons, & economic reasons, but so far as the cartoon goes, it's accurate, & your red herring about asians "surpassing" whites has fuck-all to do with anything.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kingofalldems]

31. So you quote Pigboy Limbaugh's pal and expect to be taken seriously

You seem familiar, have you been here before?

[Kurovski]

16. K&R. (nt)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. Funny how, in panel #5, after getting up the white archetype gets all...

...mellow.

[deaniac21]

21. I don't see a black guy saying 'swell'.

[defendandprotect]

23. Reverse racism is a huge scam .... and some people believe it!! Great cartoon!!

[jobycom]

24. My answer when someone calls something reverse racism is to agree.

I say, "Yeah, that's the goal. Reversing racism."

[Donald Ian Rankin]

28. All racism is racism, there's no such thing as "reverse" racism. N.T.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

25. K & R

I wish that the names from the deleted posts would remain.

Who dun it?

[No Passaran]

26. I was too late to find out what it was about

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

27. Don't cha wish .....

at least the name of the offending party was left?

Maybe then you could see if they "corrected" themselves.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

29. Where are all the other people?:

A better analogy, albeit using more ink, would feature numerous white and a few black faces on the top, and a great many faces, both white and black, on the bottom; not just one white face on the top and one black face on the bottom.

[Kingofalldems]

32. Kick this big time