The Cultural Melting Pot Has Boileth Over

[hyphenate]

A hundred years ago, the United states was so integrated with immigrants that the phrase "melting pot" was coined to describe the new mix of American, whose heritage was both colorful and varied, his nationality as a new "American" with only hereditary ties to the land of his fathers.

"…whence came all these people? They are a mixture of English, Scotch, Irish, French, Dutch, Germans, and Swedes... What, then, is the American, this new man? He is neither an European nor the descendant of an European; hence that strange mixture of blood, which you will find in no other country. I could point out to you a family whose grandfather was an Englishman, whose wife was Dutch, whose son married a French woman, and whose present four sons have now four wives of different nations. He is an American, who, leaving behind him all his ancient prejudices and manners, receives new ones from the new mode of life he has embraced, the new government he obeys, and the new rank he holds. . . . The Americans were once scattered all over Europe; here they are incorporated into one of the finest systems of populations which has ever appeared." − Hector St. Jean de Crevecoeur, Letters from an American Farmer.

The people who came to the United States were a motley group: some were escaping abject poverty in their native land, some were trying to forge a new beginning for themselves with the promise of a land where ambitions could reap wealth, a home and success in future endeavors, some escaped from countries where tin-plated dictators silenced every voice raised in protest, and others came to the U.S. to find their own "promised land" to expand, to create and to live to life's fullest.

But a lot changes in 100 years. The people who came here from before suddenly developed amnesia about their own origins, and jealously guarded their newfound wealth and status against all newcomers, especially after the World Wars, when refugees came from many different countries, trying to escape the grim reality that their homelands were no longer their own and that remaining there held too many tragedies, nightmares and depression. The immigrants who came often found a bewildering hatred aimed at them, not even comprehending that they were now the targets of race based discrimination and victims of an incomprehensible outpouring of intolerance.

And it's very sad. Ninety percent of us who reside here in the United States are the product of some merger of transplanted people, whether it is of European, African, Asian, or South American origin. (I'm sure not too many people have parents from Antarctica, and I would mention Australia, but except for the Aborigines, most Australians themselves are immigrants themselves)

The United States prospered because of these immigrants. These people who came from all walks of life, from every possible background, from every possible economic class, whose histories were as diverse as the people themselves--these were as one writer put it, "the hands that built America."

Now, we are faced with a crisis that knows no bounds: many people in the United States have become xenophobic to the point where intolerance and hatred of the people from other countries is rampant. A lot of the prejudice is aimed at people from just south of the border--isn't it strange that one of our two closest neighbors is the one where a great deal of animosity is aimed? Go figure--the people in Mexico live often in such devastating poverty that they risk their lives--and many of them lose even that--to come to the United States to work and get a little money to support their families. It's not their fault. We here in the United States can count our lucky stars that up until the Bush regime, we were administered by a generous group--that even among both parties, the leaders rarely fanned the flames of bigotry to the point where the wishes of a few--a wealthy few--could influence the immigration policies of the nation. Sure, there were individuals who tried to wrest the reins of opportunity and promise from the government, and some succeeded, but it was a rare individual who could cause a change in the actual constitution of our country as far as our policy was concerned.

Mexico hasn't been as lucky. From the inception of the first Spanish conquerors in the 16th century, to many years of war and military upheaval, the Mexicans have never had the kind of stability that we achieved here in the United States at an early time. Several dictators have catered to the wealthy as well, making a two-class system for a very long time--you were either rich, or very, very poor. As a result, many Mexicans today are trying for a way to rise from the depths of destitution. And since they have neither means or opportunity to go very many other places, they often see the choice to come to the United States as the only alternative, even if it means near certain death.

Some people here in the U.S. like to think that their just "protecting their investments." Others like to think that keeping more poor out of the country will mean greater benefits for themselves in the long run. Even others like to think that all Mexicans are stupid, filthy and a threat. And others will certainly argue they have "nothing against them" just as long as they remain in their own country, and stop trying to influence the status quo here. Oh, there are as many excuses as there are people, on both sides of the issue. We send millions--even billions--to African countries, or other third world nations to "feel good" about ourselves, to think that we are "making a difference" when in fact many of those just south of the border are in worse situations, with many people starving, disenfranchised and living in such abominable conditions to make some other third world nations look positively rosy in comparison. And yet, we DARE to say "no" to them?

Xenophobics try to justify their fear of people from other lands. But the truth is, fear will often make the most sensible people rationalize their actions, even when there is no basis in fact. How many times have ANY of us said to ourselves or others: "If they only know how to speak English!" or "I have nothing against them, but they're taking jobs away from our own citizens!" or "They're only here to collect the benefits!" or even "We've already got too many people here!"

For some, the people who come from other countries are a direct threat to their way of life--their land, their happiness, their prejudiced and bigoted way of life. You know who they are: Caucasian, Anglo-Saxon men AND women who believe that when the colonies fought the Revolution it was specifically for their benefit. They forget that the French actually owned much of the land west of the original colonies, that Spain also controlled much of the American Southwest, that Native Americans were slaughtered in droves for the European while folk, that slave traders brought many Africans into the U.S. without their permission (after all, the black race was inferior to the white race!), that many Asians were also discriminated against and made to do the "dirty work" that so many "white" Americans refused to do, and many, many atrocities were committed against immigrants of all creeds, colors and races throughout our history by people who were too driven by hate to make a place for their fellow brethren.

And so it goes. The "melting pot" might have been an idealized view of the country we share, but some people actually believed it, and continue to believe it even today, hoping that in its purest form that it becomes the reality it was meant to be. Others despise those who are different, regardless of their similarities. It's become more difficult to hear affirming comments about people from other nations and races, and many immigrants find themselves restricted to communities where there are only people of their own "kind" to be found, making assimilation very hard to accomplish, and bringing racial tensions to a boiling point of violence, hatred and further intolerance.

Under the color of our skin, under the language we speak, under the cultural differences that exist, there is only one truth: we are all human beings. We are all flesh and blood, we all possess an unending need for respect, for acknowledgment, in the desire for accomplishment. Some want that "accomplishment" to be mere survival--why can't we agree that it's a basic human right?

“ Man is the most composite of all creatures.... Well, as in the old burning of the Temple at Corinth, by the melting and intermixture of silver and gold and other metals a new compound more precious than any, called Corinthian brass, was formed; so in this continent,--asylum of all nations,--the energy of Irish, Germans, Swedes, Poles, and Cossacks, and all the European tribes,--of the Africans, and of the Polynesians,--will construct a new race, a new religion, a new state, a new literature, which will be as vigorous as the new Europe which came out of the smelting-pot of the Dark Ages, or that which earlier emerged from the Pelasgic and Etruscan barbarism.”

—Ralph Waldo Emerson, journal entry, 1845, first published 1912 in Journals of Ralph Waldo Emerson with Annotations, Vol. IIV, 116

[acmavm]

1. Everybody listen up! No matter what your reasons might be that make

you opposed to illegals being granted amnesty, you are actually a bigot and a fool and an evil and corrupt human being. Remember that. Because you can't possible have legitimate concerns for allowing 12 million people who entered this country illegally to stay here. Your worries about what it will do to the economy and the job market for blue collar workers are irrelevant because you are Xenophobics!

:sarcasm: to the nth degree.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. If they were granted amnesty, they wouldn't be illegal any more.

So obviously this "rule of law" crap is a red herring.

[robbyrob79]

14. THe problem here though

Is we are then rewarding people for committing crimes. How does that deter people from continuing to commit them?

[ThomCat]

18. Instead of turning a few laws of your choice

into a fetish, how about dealing with people's lives in a realistic way?

Law is supposed to serve a purpose. The law is not the purpose in and of itself.

[porque no]

20. that's a talking point.

a republican one. they aren't being rewarded. It's not an easy road to citizenship that they are proposing, it's quite long and expensive.

The real problem is that Cheap-labor Republicans perpetuated this fraud and now seem to be getting political props for bitching about it. Here's a clue for ya, it's all about cheap labor and always has been. The whiners cry-babying about amnesty or a border fence are the same shit-for-brains suckers who have been voting against their best interest for decades, all because some right wing Madison Avenue trained consultant figured out how to manipulate them by pressing the right buttons. Their bigot-button. Their racist button. Their homophobe button, etc. etc. etc.

Stop repeating RWMATC talking points.

[robbyrob79]

23. I'm not thinking its a talking point

I guess my point is that our immigration laws need to be reformed to make it easier for immigrants to come here legally while at the same time enforcing immigration laws that seek out employers of illegal immigrants and punish them severely for it.
The real problem I guess is that there are millions of these undocumented workers who are not paying taxes and exist outside of the system. Registering them all one way or another is a daunting task, just as sending them all back from where they came is.
My main problem is that I feel like by granting amnesty to these millions, we're saying that its okay for them to have committed the crime of entering the country illegally, while at the same time we're turning people away at the borders who are trying to enter legally. It doesn't seem to be fair to those who are trying to do things the right way to reward those who decided to buck the system and come here anyway.
Its not about racism or bigotry, I'm far from either of those things, I just think that we need to come up with a solution here that doesn't involve rewarding criminal behavior while still allowing a reasonable number of immigrants into this country, who will then pay taxes, etc etc.
The other problem, as you said about the cheap-labor republicans is that a precedent has been created now where people expect this cheap labor, which has driven MANY americans out of those type of jobs, and has really done a lot to hurt the working class here in the US. As far as that goes, I think that we need to give jobs to those already in this country first, and then immigrants second. Just like anywhere else, a citizen of a country enjoys more privileges than a non-citizen. Remember when the working class was a powerful institution? Remember when unions ran things and helped ensure that union members were paid fairly and went to bat against management that sought to maximize their profits and minimize their labor costs?
What's been happening is a lot of this illegal labor has been weakening labor unions, and creating a race to the bottom for wages.


So I guess if you're going to come up with a reasonable immigration plan, you need to really focus on a few points. I don't have the solution any more than any of the rest of us do, and no matter what happens with the new immigration law, a lot of people are going to be unhappy with it. So here are the points, at least from my perspective:

1. How to deal with the millions of undocumented people in this country. Do we give them documents and issue them work permits and also mountains of red tape to go along with it, and where is the cutoff point for these illegals granted amnesty, does it go on forever? Do we round them up as we catch them and send them home at great expense to taxpayers?

2. How to make LEGAL immigration easier. Our current program is terribly inefficient and it can take years to get a work permit here in the states. This is where the amnesty thing really kind of bothers me. How is it fair for the hundreds of thousands of people who are currently waiting to legally come here to work when millions who came illegally are simply granted amnesty? It discourages people from going through the system the legal way, which is what I meant by 'rewarding criminal behavior'.

3. How to create an environment where we protect the jobs of current americans while allowing a reasonable number of immigrants into this country. Labor was king in the US for a long time, and illegal labor and immigration are a big part of why unions are becoming weaker. How can we protect those already in this country from the 'race to the bottom' with wages?

4. How to decrease the appeal of coming to the US. How can we make it more economically viable for people to stay in their own countries and not try to risk coming here illegally? It seems to me that part of the solution to this should be to try to stem the flow of illegal immigrants from the other end of things. This is particularly true with Mexico. If we had a way of reducing the corruption of the government there and granted some big aid programs to help create living wage jobs in Mexico, that would really help to slow the flow of illegals over our borders. This would also have to be in conjunction with making sure that Mexico (I'm just using this as an example, I have nothing against mexicans) practices fair labor practices and reasonable environmental practices. This could go for any country which we receive a lot of illegal immigrants from.


These are the four big problems that we need to address, and a good solution? Good luck making very many people happy with any of it.

[Jim Warren]

33. Kudos

Well reasoned and articulate. Kudos for staying collected in the face of the shouting down that is being attempted.

[robbyrob79]

35. I think

People have a hard time wrapping their heads around this whole issue, there's a lot of ins and outs with it, hopefully my points will help make people think about things more. Its not a black and white issue.

[truedelphi]

50. If you are for congestion, increased taxes,

continuing decline in the already falling apart health system, and you are willing to admit that increasing the numbers will cause further decline, then you can safely, non hypocritically
say you are pro-immigration.

Rents are already high now - but when the word is out that amnesty is possible and are far more than twelve million applying for it - well, rent and food prices will continue to skyrocket.

Love the environment - then ask where are the extra bodies gonna go? What forests do we cut the highways through?

Hope to see your kids employed? Well, hopefully you'll have taught them Spanish - more and more jobs require proficiency in Spanish. Even for college grads. Teachers, social workers, the job requirement bar is high - and then let's hope you will have some way of saying your kids have a hispanic bloodline - the affirmative action programs help the non-whites.

[hyphenate]

54. Some of your points

are not true. There would not be any major impact on the environment, nor would there be any further decline, because the point is, those people are already here.

And while I personally don't have a flair for other languages, most other people worldwide speak more than one language--even many Canadians are bi-lingual, speaking or reading both French and English. Some speak Gaelic as my own ancestors did. What is so difficult about making our nation officially more receptive to the cultural habits of others? Regardless of whether the United States would officially adopt a bi-lingual system, most high schools offer a second language to students, whether it's Spanish, French, German or something else. It would behoove the schools to make it a part of curriculum for elementary schools, because the younger the student, the more receptive they are to learning a second language.

There are housing developments across the country currently, which are languishing with empty apartments. Across the country, there are properties being sold because people can't keep up with the mortgage because of the economy. Rents are so fucking high, it's impossible to put away a part of a paycheck, because housing is often a full half of a person's paycheck. I lived in the San Gabriel Valley area of Los Angeles, in West Covina. It's about 20 miles from downtown L.A., and about 12 miles to Pasadena. It's a residential community for the most part. I had a one bedroom apartment--essentially a small kitchen, a decent sized bedroom, and then an open floor plan for the living room and dining area. New owners bought the complex, and the rent went from $850 to $1100 nearly overnight. They were forced (by law) to give us a two month notice, and give us a chance to move out. Many of us there were already struggling with finances, and that leap was essentially a "fuck you" gesture. I had my mother to help me a bit, but I can't imagine how many people became homeless as a result of that rent increase.

It seems to me that greed and aggression are what is hurting most people across country. Houses that once sold for under $100,000 in Massachusetts are selling at triple or quadruple that rate right now. We lived in a house in a district of Boston--sort of what is considered an "urban" area. The original owner of the house offered it to my dad (circa 1980) for $12,000. That house is now selling for $554,000. That kind of increase is absolutely outrageous, but the fact is, people out there are buying them. If we can't do a freeze on the housing market, more and more people will be making desperate decisions in order to have a roof over their heads. I think that in some areas, the boom has finally dropped somewhat, but it's showing mainly in areas where there is no economic development. The inner city, where I grew up, has become gentrified, and is no longer accessible to many people. So where that puts many folk, I don't know. I know there are some people who end up sharing their flats with multiple other people, but that's not the answer--affordable housing is the answer.

I have argued against a lot of points myself as well, though. When I was working, I had continual frustration with the language barrier, a certain amount of resentment for those who were on welfare, and I struggled for years in SoCal because I had no health insurance and I had major medical problems. That pretty much wiped me out emotionally, as I went into a severe clinical depression, and didn't leave the house for the most part for two full years. I still have a major depression, but the stress in my life has significantly stopped because I got out of SoCal and back to Massachusetts where I grew up.

Regardless, the point is that there would not be a "surge" in population because the influx of new residents would not happen--there would still be an active flow, but the so-called illegals are already here and integrated into the communities in which they live.

[truedelphi]

55. If we didn't have twelve million extra bodies, and a bunch

of open space provisions in local real estate preventing houses and apartments from being built, Greed would exist but go unexpressed.

Greed can only flourish when various factors collude and collide to allow greed to go ballistic.

Why could your old landlord raise the rent by such a steep amount overnight. Extra bodies - supply - and a lack of demand.

The same environmental crowd that wants open space has put such restirctive measures in some of the places where people need to lvie to get to work. No housing built - the middle class quietly moves elsewhere, then there are a lack of service providers, so people from other klands move in - a dozen people to an apartment.

Like I said - if you are willing to look at the big pciture, and admit how much damage is being done to the environment and to the white
middle class (now very much in decline) then go ahead and be an advocate for unlimited population growth.

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. Right. Without sarcasm

There are no 'legitimate concerns'. It is all 'we got what we got and we won't share'. There was no such thing, even in conception, of 'illegal immigration' before the racist Chinese Exclusion Act in the 1880s. The first restrictions on immigration were racially and religiously motivated reactions by conservative white protestants against east European Jews and southern European Catholics at the turn of the century. And the arguments used then were exactly the same as we hear now, a hundred years later, and are just as invalid. We not only survived that influx of immigrants, we thrived because of it, and that was a far larger immigration, proportionally to our population.

If we had open borders there would be no undocumented aliens other than those few who are really here for illegitimate purposes, and there would be no 'illegal' community for them to hide in. There would be fewer permanent immigrants because immigrant workers could return home at will without chancing deportation, and would have less reason to bring their entire families with them. Their pay would not be significantly less than native born workers because, as they are legitimate themselves, they could not be forced to take low wages by unscrupulous employers and they would be able to join unions. They would compete with native born workers on a level field, with the one disadvantage of being unfamiliar with the language, which still leaves the native born in a one-up position.

The whole concept of 'illegal aliens' only helps the rich and the corporations by giving them a population they can exploit at will.

[robbyrob79]

15. The problem with this line of thinking

Is how do we make undocumented workers productive members of society? They enjoy the benefits of living in the US without having to pay any of the costs associated with those benefits. That's my problem with the issue.

[ThomCat]

19. If you give them all amnesty

they they're legal and your problem is solved. They can now get social security numbers and you can then choose to recognize them as productive citizens.

Of course, they're already productive whether you want to recognize it or not. Entire industries are dependent upon them. They drive a major portion of our economy. Most of them pay taxes and get very little in return.

[robbyrob79]

27. How does an illegal immigrant pay taxes?

I think its a valid question. If an employer takes out income taxes on someone with no social security number, how is that reported to the feds? Do they file tax returns? Maybe I'm way off on this, but it seems to me like it would be tough to pay your federal income taxes without having a SSN.

[ThomCat]

29. Many people either make up a fake SSN, or use someone else's

and give that to their employer. So the taxes are deducted and paid against that social security number, but they never get social security. They pay in, but get nothing out.

The IRS apparently has a long list of SSNs that show two people paying taxes. They don't do anything about it because the true owner of the SSN isn't being victimized.

[robbyrob79]

30. Well, why would they do anything about it?

Investigations cost money, and why investigate a circumstance where you're suddenly getting more money than you expected. So in the end here, illegals are also getting the short end of the stick, paying 20-30% of their income in taxes but receiving no benefit from it. Interesting thought there.

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. Exactly. The government BENEFITS from the illegal status of

undocumented workers. That is a disincentive to addressing the roots of the problem.

[robbyrob79]

39. The roots of the problem

are the strangling of the american labor movement in 20 years of extremely conservative republican rule.

[Emit]

43. I think they do send out a notice to the owner of the SSN

I recently started a part-time job and the company got my ssn incorrect on my W2 form. Within a couple of weeks from receiving my W2 form, I got a letter from SS asking me to verify my ssn. (Btw, this letter was also written in spanish on the back.) I assume it is a standard letter that gets sent quite frequently if people's ssns are being used illegally. In my case, no one had used my ssn illegally -- it was the employer's error who put in someone else's ssn in lieu of mine. But it does seem that this form is used to prevent ssns from being misused and to alert the proper owner of the ssn to the problem. Also, from the content of the letter, it appears that it is also used for the purpose of notifying the person using the wrong ssn that they are using someone else's ssn -- in this case, SS knew that the ssn that the company had for me belonged to someone else. That 'someone else' in my case probably got a similar letter.

Also, I've been informed by my tax guy that this IS a problem -- for me in my case because my earnings weren't reported yet to my ssn -- and to the owner of the ssn (that was accidentally put on my W2) because now they have reported earnings that they didn't really earn. It will take a while to correct this problem for me and the other person. I've been told by IRS and SS that the employer has up to two years to correct the error.

[treestar]

9. What "legitimate concerns?"

Really what harm have these people done to you?

They're illegal because the laws are so tight and so old fashioned that they don't have anything to do with the present reality.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for middle class Americans being so "concerned" about a bunch of poor people far from home getting a break.

And in the current bill, it's not such a big break. They have to pay $5000 - lol, if that's the fine for being in a country without a visa, the fine for speeding should be ten times that - speeding is much more dangerous.

[acmavm]

13. What do you for a living? Here where I live my friends were supported by

fathers who worked in the packing plants and did construction, manual labor blue collar jobs. They didn't live high on the hog, but they were not deprived. The influx of cheap and most often illegal labor killed that.

Early on I watched the computer programmers and the accountants and lawyers pooh-pooh the cost of cheap labor and the effect it would have on the quality of life. Up until their jobs started to be outsourced and they started to get the big freeze-out like the guys they treated like whiners who had no reason to complain. I don't know of anyone on this board who's willingly given up their job so an illegal can have it. NO ONE. But there sure as hell are a large bunch, the Utopian Crowd, who can surely espouse a cause that effects other people. They don't mind one damn bit giving away someone elses job. Nope. Not at all.

I'm not going to waste a lot of time on this bullshit and blather today. Especially since the immigration reform bill in its current form isn't going to pass anyway.

But you holier than thou people, you who are so generous with other American's jobs, you go ahead and call others names, accuse people of being Xenophobic, racists, horrible people. Knock yourselves out. Shows what hypocrites you are with all your talk about being good Americans. You're hitting other Americans right where they live, how they survive. But as long as it costs you nothing it's okay, isn't it?

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. That is not the fault of the immigrant - it is the fault of the companies

that HIRED the immigrants.

They hired undocumented workers because the undocumented could be coerced into accepting less than standard wages because of their vulnerable position.

The states with the worst problems with undocumented workers are those so-called right to work states that actively undermine the American working force by preventing, or at least disencouraging, unionization. And they get away with it because the workforce is not unionized -- if a construction company hires only undocumented workers at minimum wage, there is no organized labor to shut the place down.

Put the blame where it belongs - not on the immigrants, but on the bosses.

[robbyrob79]

26. but...

both parties knew that what was going on was illegal, don't they both bear some kind of responsibility?

[RaleighNCDUer]

34. That's like saying that slaves and slaveowners are equally

responsible for the institution of slavery. The slave is doing what he has to do. The slaveowner creates and maintains the system that gives him the slave's labor.

You are living in desperate poverty, with little capability of feeding your family, and none for providing medical care, education, or a future. Across the border are good paying jobs, but they say 'put in the paperwork, and we'll let you in in about 3 years'.

What do you do? Say 'se la vie', so the little one dies because of an infected tooth while you wait? Or do you do what you have to do?

Once across the border, the only work you can find pays so little that you have to room with six strangers in a pay-by-the-week motel, but still, after only two weeks, you can send more money back to your family than you earned in the previous six months at home. People call you 'illegal' but you know that the little one will not die, that your family will be well fed for the first time in months.

They are coming here to WORK. Not to skim the cream off our society. They are not criminals. I would wager that more of them have better personal ethics than most Americans, because when you live that close to edge you have little room for error.

I think we need to open the borders, not close them. Make everyone who is here for legitimate work fully legal That undercuts the companies that prey on the undocumented, as well as the few criminals who hide themselves in the underground society of the undocumented.

[robbyrob79]

41. You're right

Lets just drive wages for americans all the way to the bottom, hell, lets make american citizens all volunteer workers.

I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, but there are millions of people around the world with this same problem, they're barely able to feed their families. There's hundreds of thousands if not millions of those types here in the states too.
The fact that you commit a crime to help your family doesn't make it any less of a crime. Its unfortunate but true.


If you want to talk republican talking points, open borders would be a great one. That would mean that american companies can then hire foreign workers for a fraction of what they'd pay american workers and pocket all of that excess profit. Goodbye american working class, hello caste system in the US. All open borders will do is more quickly concentrate the wealth here and eliminate the american middle class.

[acmavm]

28. Bullshit. It's the fault of both. Punish the business that hire them. And do

NOT reward them for breaking the law and sneaking into this country. And I'm not talking only about Mexican illegals. I mean ALL ILLEGALS.

Eliminate all the cheap labor and then we will be able to do something about the companies that hire them.

This is the last comment for today on this subject folks. The majority of the people in this country, whether you like it or not, do not favor rewarding these lawbreakers by giving them American jobs. You can screech and piss and moan all you want.

All you 'let everybody in' people would fast change your tune, and will, when it effects you and yours.

[robbyrob79]

31. hear hear!

I totally agree, the victims here are neither the illegals nor the businesses that hire them, the real victims are the american people, the american working class, which is being pushed out of existence by the availability of cheap illegal labor.

[robbyrob79]

32. Speeding is more dangerous

than allowing millions of people of unknown background into our country and then doing little to stem the flow? Granted yes, the majority of illegal immigrants are just here to make a buck, but its easy enough to sneak into this country that same way that those with nefarious motives could easily do the same. Potentially, an illegal immigrant could be MUCH more dangerous than someone speeding on the freeway.

[RaleighNCDUer]

40. No, you are NOT talking about illegal immigrants, then. You are

talking about criminal terrorists who come with the intent to do harm, not to find jobs. And you know what? If you open the borders, make all immigrant workers legal and documented, there will be no underground immigrant community for the terrorists to hide in. Opening the borders would make us safer from terrorism.

As it is now, if an undocumented worker comes across the border and notices that one of those coming across with him is, let us say, Arabic, he will say nothing for fear of being deported himself. But let him be legal, and he has nothing to fear in talking to the authorities about the guy down the hall who is acting strangely.

[robbyrob79]

42. Okay, open those borders up

But what about the bad parts of having open borders? What about Americans who need jobs? Don't you remember, we're supposed to have pride in our country, we're supposed to support our citizens here, not have a race to the bottom with wages and destroy the middle class.

[RaleighNCDUer]

45. I've addressed that in more than one post here.

With open borders and legal workers, there would be no exploitation. If an immigrant shows up at the work site and is told by the union guy thee that everybody starts at $12/hr, is he going to accept $7.50? Of course not. ILLEGAL workers undercut the wage structure because they are vulnerable to blackmail - accept it or be deported. Make them legal, and the bosses would have to pay the prevailing wage. In that case, who has the better chance of being hired? The American, or the Guatamalan with 25 words of English?

Open the border, make them legal, and the problem melts away.

[robbyrob79]

46. Interesting point

But I don't see that happening in reality, especially with the weakness of labor unions here in the states these days. I see it as a thinly disguised attempt to make the currently illegal supply of very cheap labor into a legal supply of very cheap labor.
With the death of unionized labor, playing with the idea of suddenly flooding the labor market in all sectors with millions of people who are willing and able to work very cheaply is a terrible idea. Your ideal world doesn't exist anymore. Labor unions are weak now, and I don't see your plan as being anything but disasterous for our country.

[RaleighNCDUer]

47. That's just the thing - if the unions would grab onto the undocumented

as workers, rather than castigate them as foreigners, they would strengthen themselves and again move into the position of prominence they once had before the anti-labor republicans, those who profit from undocumented workers, broke their power. Saying that labor has to be strong first is bass ackwards, just like saying that the cheap labor has to go away before tackling the companies that hire cheap labor - let labor embrace the undocumented as fellow workers, allied against those companies, and force the companies to deal honestly with them. Go after the companies first, force them to pay equitable wages to all workers, or suffer the consequences.

Don't imagine that the undocumented are stupid - they know they are being exploited, they know they are underpaid, they know they are subject to blackmail and worse. They know, when they are being paid $5/hr and their friend, on another job is being paid $10/hr for the same work that they are being ill used - but they also know that if they ask for more they could be denounced to the INS. To say they want this situation is just as downright racist as saying that blacks liked Jim Crow because they just weren't intellectually capable of seeing their life any other way.

The only time that immigration has not been a benefit to this land was when Europeans invaded and took it from the original inhabitants.

[robbyrob79]

49. great point!

You definitely opened my eyes to this point, thanks!

[hyphenate]

11. Everyone has their reasons

for or against measures on immigration, and that's great--it's good to see that people here at DU are at least open to hearing the opinions of others. I don't always feel such largesse on my own part--there have been times when I've thought horrible thoughts about others, but the truth is, it's not what we actually think, it's what we actually do. If we can control how we choose to proceed from that thought to an action, I am pretty certain that most DUers would do the right thing, regardless of their personal misgivings.

I liken it to personal stories from wars, where enemies meet on a one-on-one level. Most often they find that the "enemy" is just the same as themselves, and that in the end, it's finding a kind of salvation in seeing more similarities than differences. How we act ultimately separates those who can accept others for who they are, from those who can't find anything but hatred for others--it also gives us a level of discourse to make certain that it is an objective, rather than subjective argument in one direction or another.

Am I a saint? Not in any way, shape or form. But giving some people the benefit of the doubt, and understanding why other people do things the way they do hopefully enlightens me to the circumstances of others. I know I can't speak for others--personal responsibility is all I can hope for, and leave others to govern themselves.

[ThomCat]

17. If you removed the sarcasm tag I'd actually agree with most of

your post. Go figure.

I really do believe that racism is the primary motivation of people who want to kick all of these people out of the US.

[ComerPerro]

56. like you give a shit about blue collar workers.

Blue collar workers get paid shit and get treated like shit because of a crap economy and years of Repig policies to strip away workers rights. If it wasn't illegals working for minimum wage, it would be Americans.

The idea that if all immigrants went away, then suddenly Americans would be paid living wages with full health coverage is well-intentioned fantasy at best, but more likely racist scapegoating.

[gaspee]

2. I'm getting the popcorn

And going to watch the underbelly of DU expose itself.

Two topics always bring out the best here at DU. Immigration and feminism ::sarcasm::

[damntexdem]

3. The melting pot did finally work post-Emerson.

Just as it is at work today: http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=15. Going to the full report, there are some interesting findings: over half of Hispanics identify themselves as "Americans," nearly a third of foreign born, 90% of native born, and 97% of third generation or high; over half speak English, one-quarter English-dominant, 4% English-dominant and one-fourth bilingual in the first generation, a little under half English-dominant (and a like number bilingual in the second generation), and three-fourths English-dominant by the third generation; and are oriented to "getting ahead" in the U.S. economy. In effect, current migrants are recapitulating the assimilation of immigrants to the U.S. of prior centuries.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. Great post! This nation was built by immigrants, many of them recent. K&R

And, most of the waves of immigrants were greeted with same xenophobic, nationalistic, racist, bigotry and fear mongering that are facing the Latino immigrants today. And, the same rationales of "stealing jobs", "ignorance", and, "why don't they stay in their own countries and fix them?"

[robbyrob79]

16. I don't think that its racist

All people are asking is that people use legal means to come into this country for the protection of both themselves and America. If we have a vetting process to ensure that immigrants are qualified and can get jobs in the states, and also register them with some sort of traceable number or something, we can then grant them rights (illegals really have no rights), and we can ensure that they pay taxes, so they can help pay for the benefits they receive from living in this country.
What I don't like is the idea of rewarding criminal behavior, which is essentially what amnesty is.

[porque no]

21. There you go again

Those are right wing talking points only used to coddle to the bigots and racists and shivering cowards. STOP REPEATING THEM!!!

The illegals are here because they were allowed to come, or better yet, encouraged to come by the availability of JOBS. Do you think it is an accident that big coporations, and I mean big ones, are willing to use illegals for labor? It ain't, they know that the enforcement of laws is not being done, and they know that the penalties aren't large enough to stop. Duh.

The whole thing is a Republican sham. REPUBLICAN SHAM. And here you are parroting their bullshit.

[robbyrob79]

25. Read my latest post please

Immigration is a mess, so what do we do with these millions of undocumented people? What's a good solution? I hear a lot of screaming about racism, bigotry, republicanism, and things like that, but I see very little actually being said about what could reasonably be done to fix this problem.
And I'm sorry, people who come to this country illegally are just as culpable as those who hire them. The both know they're breaking the law.

[robbyrob79]

37. I guess the problem I have with what you're saying is

That illegals ALSO know that they've committed a crime in coming to the US, so how can one say that they're blameless in this?

[ThomCat]

44. If I could recommend individual posts I'd recommend yours.

:applause:

:patriot:

[Kat 333]

53. You can't be serious ...

Do you know what "illegal" means ?

[Madspirit]

5. k&r!!

I'm a Texan and an open borders kinda gal. ...and I truly do think racism and xenophobia and ignorance is behind anyone who wants to kick out the millions and millions of people who have been here for forever...BECAUSE THEY WERE HERE FIRST.

I love all my illegal friends and NOTHING will change me on that. I would risk myself to hide and protect them.

Lee

[LeftishBrit]

6. Good post - I love that Emerson quote!

[Richard Steele]

10. Wow, what a great piece of writing. Recommended. nm

[EFerrari]

12. "Where do we find ourselves?" -- "Circles", Emerson.

:toast:

K&R

[Jim Warren]

24. There is a point you omit

At no point in the historical immigration process of the US did it involve
the mass population gain of 12 to 20 million (by some estimates more) in one fell swoop. It is my opinion that massive number, if amnesty is granted, will be wage and job detrimental to the present American working class in the fairly immediate short run. The American Business Class will be all over it like a cheap suit on a wage race to the bottom.

I think it would be hard for ANY wage economy in the world right now to adsorb that kind of hit.

The US Chamber of Congress disagrees with me.
After Aiding Bill on Immigration, Employers Balk
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/washington/21immig.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1179864409-xPbD2HsHy209lCHxm7+TPA

[robbyrob79]

38. That's right

We need to remember the american working class. Remember those folks? The people who used to work the slaughterhouses, manufacturing plants, construction jobs, etc? The american worker was once something that people took pride in, that we take care of our workers, that we don't seek to hire illegals to do the same job for half the pay, that we actually thought "Wow, lets take care of ourselves first, and then look outward".

[pingzing58]

48. Jim, they're already working. Earning fair wages in the construction,

service and meat packing industries.  Wages are low for farm
workers or migrant workers and I can't imagine any crop picker
to earn a living wage ($10/hr).  The reason 12 million
undocumented workers can hide (as it were) in our system is
because they are making enough money not only to survive but
to send back home.  If Mexicans (both legal and illegal) sent
home 12 billion dollars in '03 can you imagine today?  

By Luis Alonso Lugo
ASSOCIATED PRESS
8:51 p.m. September 24, 2003

NEW YORK – Money sent from Mexican workers in the United
States to their families back home has reached a record $12
billion in 2003, Mexican President Vicente Fox said Wednesday.


Remittances "are our biggest source of foreign income,
bigger than oil, tourism or foreign investment," Fox told
reporters after a meeting with Mexican-American businessmen. 

"The 20 million Mexicans in the United States generate a
gross product that is slightly higher than the $600 billion
generated by Mexicans in Mexico," Fox said, adding that
his country has the ninth-largest economy in the world. 

"If we could add up the two products, Mexico would be the
third or fourth economy in the world," he said. 

------
hmmmm, makes you wonder.  Somehow I'm unimpressed by your
argument.

[Jim Warren]

57. Then you miss the point

and so does anyone who uses the "they're already here" argument.

Why do you think the majority of the 20 million (according to Sr. Fox) undocumented aliens are finding work so easily? Because Americans won't do it?

No, because everyone hiring known illegals are saving a buck, from construction contractors, factories, farms, restaurants to the guy putting on a new deck at his house after shopping at Home Depot and his wife who needs a maid.

The REAL reason is because they work cheap, no questions asked and even the people who
mouth rhetoric about fairness and upholding the law hate to lose this convenience.

It is my opinion that given what amounts to a blanket amnesty this pool of surplus labor will remain at the bottom of the wage scale albeit newly legal, thus allowing business to then "legally" hire and further accelerate the wage race to the bottom forcing many hourly wage working class American out of the picture altogether.

That's why the US Chamber of Commerce supports and acts as the mouthpiece on this legislation and why corporations like Marriott Hotels are so in favor of it.

After Aiding Bill on Immigration, Employers Balk
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/washington/21immig.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Business finally barking on immigration
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/05/22/opinion/commentary/20_04_345_21_07.txt

[pingzing58]

59. The AFL-CIO and the United Food and Commercial Workers Unions

are not in favor of the bill.  And there are many Mexican
legal and illegal workers who are represented by them.  The
Unions see the high number of temporary worker visas that the
bill offers as undermining the unions bargaining power not
because of the availability of cheap labor but because when a
Union calls for a strike the employers will just hire
replacements.  I'm all for, once again, strengthening the
Union's ability to represent workers and their right to earn a
living wage and have some benefits (the latter is a hard one).
 Wal-Mart won't allow their employees to unionize.  Can you
imagine if the 1.4 million employees of Wal-Mart world wide
would strike for health benefits?  On the other hand, the
Corporations balked because they want the advantage of having
available labor (not necessarily cheap labor) at hand.  No one
will ever convince me it's about hourly wages or minimum wage.
 Marriot can easily absorb that and still turn huge yearly
profit.  It's the benefits that get every employer (Chrysler
is the poster child for what benefits and retirment benefits
do to a company this month).  

[philosophie_en_rose]

51. If 12 to 20 million people are already here and working, your fear is unwarranted.

[Jim Warren]

58. Here working illegally

and their employers know that. That is why they are paid under the table, for far less.

Change that with an amnesty program and you'll see a surge in the LEGAL surplus labor pool, of 12-20M, that will infiltrate right through the ranks of all employment, perhaps even yours, and a downward spiral in the prevailing wage standard.

[Hatalles]

52. Excellent. k/r