Les travailleurs de la France, marcheront! ..... Even bigger strikes are coming.

[marmar]

from the Guardian UK:




A flurry of polls revealed yesterday that France is bitterly divided over continuing industrial action as the country braced itself for a further round of strikes, protests and blockades.

On Friday, the upper house of the French parliament voted in favour of a pension reform raising the retirement age to 62. Union leaders have called for two more general strikes and French schoolchildren have threatened continued protests through the holidays. As the authorities struggled to restore petrol supplies across the country following the blockading of France's 12 oil refineries, opinion polls gave a confused and contradictory picture of the level of support for more industrial action.

In an IFOP survey, 63% declared the two new days of strikes to be "justified", while a similar poll by Opinion Way found that, although around half of all French people sympathised with the strikes, 56% believed the parliamentary vote should be respected and the unions should stop industrial action.

The IFOP poll also found that 53% believed the raising of the pension age from 60 to 62 was acceptable, and Opinion Way declared that 59% disapproved of the action against petrol refineries and 63% believed the government was right to smash the blockades. ..........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/24/pensions-strikes-paris-senate-students

[slackmaster]

1. I've heard the people are nicer in Greece anyway

[Buns_of_Fire]

5. "Metamucil -- If you don't drink this, you'll die."

Love that movie. :-)

[slackmaster]

6. I'm glad somebody got the reference!

Quaker oats - Are they good?

We don't really know, but the box is cute.

[Buns_of_Fire]

9. I never could figure out why they'd use Barbara Bush as their spokesmodel.

Now, if the box said "Oatmeal Gives You A Beautiful Mind," I could understand it, I suppose.

[greytdemocrat]

2. Excuse me

If my opinion seems to buc the trend but disrupting your countrys cities because of retirement going from 60 to 62??? Spare me. France is looking like a bunch of whiny school kids but they throw in burning cars. I cannot throw any support their way.

[marmar]

3. How incredibly.....ignorant.

[greytdemocrat]

8. Sooo...

You think this ridiculous behavior is justified??? Throwing an entire country into turmoil??

Next time it'll be "there are not enough public bathrooms" or some other demand.

[slackmaster]

10. People have told me that there is indeed a shortage of public bathrooms in France

It's a big problem for tourists with disabilities.

I know a woman who declined to visit the Louvre because she heard the restrooms were on the second floor, and there aren't many elevators. She has major hip problems and can't climb stairs easily.

(She is a nut case, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.)

[WinkyDink]

12. Try to find them HERE. (The woman "heard"? And there ARE elevators, but not "many"? Oh, brother.)

[slackmaster]

15. I'm talking about someone who was afraid to fire her gardener

She thought he'd break into her house and kill her if she terminated him.

[flyarm]

20. there are bathrooms on the bottom floor of the Louvre!

I know..I take tours to Paris and as a former 33 yr flight attendant (retired) who flew Paris for many many years..and have traveed to Paris for 30+ years, I will say those kinds of stories are from People who have never been to Paris or France and spew this shit.

There toilets are on the bottom floor where you get your tickets to enter the Louvre, you take a Escalator down to the Ticket area when you enter..there are huge "Toilets"..can't be missed..they are well marked and one can use them prior to going onto the escalators into each wing of the Louvre. There are also bathrooms on almost every floor of the Louvre.

I have never found it a problem to find a LOO in Paris or anywhere else in France.

VIVA LA France! At least they have the balls and fortitude to fight for what is right and what they believe in!

[greytdemocrat]

21. LOL!!

Ok, bad example.:D

[uppityperson]

30. It can be difficult to find accessible public toilets. Aren't many out on the streets

(unlike here in the USA where they are on every corner) :sarcasm:

It is true that many in food places are on second floors, can be difficult to find accessible ones. You learn to visit bars and use theirs, though you get stern looks. There are ones in Lourve as it is a big enough place that many many people visit.

[WinkyDink]

11. Turmoil vs. Workers' Rights. Hmmmm...which side to be on....Hmmmm....

[TBF]

13. Absolutely - protest is our only way to fight the owners.

I admire and commend the french workers, and stand beside them in solidarity.

[donco6]

17. Me too. I wish we had the fortitude to take to the streets here.

Alas, I'm sure there's a new game on my iPhone to play . . .

[maryf]

39. I wouldn't say it's fortitude we lack...

just a spark of courage...

[glowing]

16. Guess you would have been one of those Brittish sypathizers back in the Revolution Days.

[flyarm]

18. yes I do think it is Justified..to bad too many is this country are too gutless to stand for

anything!

[Brickbat]

19. Yes, yes -- that's right. If people don't like something, they should just shut up and take it.

After all, the powers that be will give them just what they deserve, right?

[GoneOffShore]

22. It is indeed justified.

The only thing the corporate state understands is disruption.

Et "le petit" Sarko? Quel con!

[xchrom]

23. 2 years here 5 years there, pretty soon your out

Of retirement age and in the grave with only your boss
Having anything to show for it.

[laughingliberal]

42. Totally justified

and the tendency of the French to protest screwings by their government is why they still have early retirement at 60 while ours has been 62 forever and their full benefit age is still 65 while ours is 67 and will likely be raised to 70 before the end of this year.

Or, perhaps, you think they should be more like us. Every time we get screwed we sit in the corner frightened hoping they don't take all our crumbs away.

[Starry Messenger]

4. How special for you.

:thumbsdown:

[WillyT]

7. You See... The French Don't Want To End Up Like Us...

working until we drop dead.

They'd like to enjoy the last couple of decades of their lives, while still in good health, after working for 40 fucking years.

That's unreasonable to you?

Curious...

:shrug:

[Odin2005]

25. It's a slippery slope to the bottom that has to be stopped before it starts.

If you give the corporatists an inch they will take it a mile.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Binka]

35. Yes We Have Baby

Shit-Heel PERFECT. Go Giants!

[uppityperson]

28. That is for partial retirement, full is going from 65-67.

Educate yourself.

[Posteritatis]

29. Much better to get nickel-and-dimed into the US' current straits, I suppose. (nt)

[Hannah Bell]

53. the age for full retirement is 65, same as here. 60 v 62 is age for retirement

with less benefits.

no one wants your support, so no great loss.

[TBF]

14. K&R Solidarity nt

[Overseas]

24. K&R! //nt

[Primitive Mind]

27. What would you propose?

People are living longer lives. It's nice to say that the government should take care of them after they retire at 60, but that money has to come from somewhere.

The old money rich don't have to stay where they are, they can move to a tax climate they find more favorable. The new money rich would take a hit, but you can only eat them once. So new taxes would fall right back on the middle class and the poor.

Would adjusting benefits downward to adjust for the increased peiod of life after retirment result in any smaller strikes? Highly unlikely, the same bunch would be taking to the streets.

If letting the system continue as is will eventually lead to it's bankruptcy, what can the French government do?

[uppityperson]

32. 1 side says let people retire earlier, give jobs to others. Another side says let them work longer

pay in more before taking it out.

France isn't the USA, and comparing them is normal but doesn't work accurately.

[Primitive Mind]

36. Economics...

The economic factors that drive a situation like they have in France, is pretty much the same no matter what other factors exist. If they retire and "let somebody else work", what they are really doing is saying we'll tax those workers more to pay for the longer retirement. What happens if those workers decide that's a raw deal? Would they be applauded for striking over being taxed to pay for Grandma and Grandpa to live the good life while they're in thumbscrews? Would you be willing to send in the army to force them to produce?

I understand economics fairly well. It cuts across language and culture very nicely, it's mainly a matter of what one does with the information one has.

[uppityperson]

41. Several fallacies. Workers won't pay more if others take early retirement.

They continue to pay tax the same amount. "we'll tax those workers more" seems nonsensical to me.

Why would I want to send in any army to "make them produce"? If someone is working and paying into the retirement system, why would I need to "make them produce"? Seems nonsensical to me. Again.

Yes, one person retires and another person gets that job. I think you are saying you'd rather the working person continue to work 5 more yrs and the non-new-worker be unemployed for those 5 yrs. Which seems odd to me. Notice I didn't say nonsensical.

Secondly, "Grandma and Grandpa to live the good life" while they are getting retirement? Back to that word, seems....

[Primitive Mind]

51. There are different ways to look at it

France's pension system works similar to our pension system in that everything that is currently paid out, is paid out of current tax reciepts or by the government issuing bonds. More retirees, either through early retirement or longer post work life, that rely on the social pension for income means the government has to get that wealth from some where. That some where will be the workers filling into jobs the new retirees just left.

[uppityperson]

56. But they won't "tax those workers more to pay for the longer retirement."

Those workers will pay into the social security/retirement system just as the people they replaced did.

[eridani]

47. The protests in France have very high participation by young people

Productivity has been increasing for 70 years and more, but people still work more hours for less pay in constant dollars. Take the money from the rich fuckers and there will be plenty. Why should they get 100% of the benefits of increased productivity?

[Primitive Mind]

52. Odd that...

You say that the workers recieve no benefits of increased productivity over the las 70 years? That much time would probably put it back our grandparents or great grandparents early adulthood, generally speaking.

My grandparents lived on a farm. They had a horse and buggy for transportation. The field was plowed using a team of mules. The latrine facility was an outhouse. Their house was not connected to an electrical grid. If they took a day off, animals went hungry and important chores got missed. This was all true up until the late 1940s.

Today? We have dozens of ways to communicate literally around the world. We can ship anything to almost anywhere in that same world in a week, providing we pay the shipping cost for it. Plumbing may vary, but indoor plumbing is prevalent throughout the western world. Most workers enjoy regular holidays, days off, and leave that is paid. I note that my generation's situation is materally better than my grandparents' generation, this is greatly derived from greater productivty (not to mention the efforts of labor advocacy).

[eridani]

57. The subject was productivity, not consumer product availability

There is no getting around the fact that if fewer and fewer people produce more and more stuff in a system that will not allow non-workers to have any stuff, the system will eventually come to a screeching halt. It is irrelevant that different kinds of stuff are produced over time.

[Amonester]

49. How about all 'western' countries leagalize cannabis, and tax it?

Plenty enough tax revenue there, period.

Think of all the 'savings' on slashing the phony (and un-winnable) 'War-On-Drugs' annual bloated police budgets too...

But no. Hammer the average elderly over and over, and keep throwing all that tax-money down the current 'economics' toilet bowl.

[laughingliberal]

43. That "People are living longer TP" is pretty much BS.

Most of the increase in life expectancy is due to the decreased numbers of people who die in childhood. Looking at people who live to working age and pay into the system, it has not changed that drastically.

When you break it down by socio-economic class, there's really not much increase. Working class people who are, largely, dependent on SS after they are unable to work really don't survive significantly longer than they ever did. It's a scam they're selling to the American people in order to justify the theft of the SS trust fund.

[Hannah Bell]

54. +100. the rich have always lived longer than the poor or middle.

most of the founding fathers & presidents, for example, lived longer than my father or grandfather did.

washington - 67
adams - 91
jefferson - 83
madison - 85
monroe - 73
jq adams - 81

etc.

rich women didn't do as well, mainly because of childbirth, but now they're longer-lived than anyone on the planet.

but the presidents wives were pretty long-lived as well

mary washington - 81 (george's mom)
martha custis - 71
abigail adams - 74
martha jefferson - 64
dolley madison - 81
elizabeth monroe - 62
louisa adams - 77

etc

[eridani]

46. No they aren't--not by very much anyway

The increase in life expectancy is almost entirely due to the reduction in infant mortality. The money comes from more people paying into the system for their entire lives.

[Hannah Bell]

55. really?

all of the first presidents, for example, lived longer than my father or grandfather did.

washington - 67
adams - 91
jefferson - 83
madison - 85
monroe - 73
jq adams - 81

etc.


mary washington - 81 (george's mom)
martha custis - 71
abigail adams - 74
martha jefferson - 64
dolley madison - 81
elizabeth monroe - 62
louisa adams - 77

etc

[leftstreet]

31. K&R

[Greyhound]

37. K&R.

[Catherina]

38. That's great news. Don't back down. Beat that Chicago school of crime to a pulp. n/t

[laughingliberal]

44. +1000 nt

[readmoreoften]

50. I hope they keep going until the Chicago boys are in gulags.

[maryf]

40. K&Rnt

[laughingliberal]

45. K & R nt

[scarletwoman]

48. Vive la France! Don't give the bloodsucking ruling class an inch!