Why is DU not outraged at the high number of high school dropouts we have?

[dkf]

30% do not graduate from high school and we wonder why we have so many in poverty? We rail against the rich as somehow causing poverty, yet statistics show that poverty is directly correlated to education levels.

When Obama attempts to fix this all he gets is hate from people who seem to mostly care about teachers rights, not a student's right to get an education and have a good life. Even if all this testing isn't a perfect solution, where are the ideas coming from the professional educators? They seem to only come up with why Obama's approach is wrong, instead of giving us and volunteering their ideas, time and effort to produce high school graduates. I say if teachers have better ideas there is nothing stopping them.

If we insist that these kids are the problem and we can't do much about it then we need to understand we can't do anything about poverty either.

[WinkyDink]

1. "To Sir, with Love" was a movie. BTW: How do you "volunteer" in (not separate from) your job?

Are you SERIOUSLY implying that teachers work on the clock only? That somehow teachers are denying students the right to an education?

That teachers, or teachers' unions, are somehow the ADMINISTRATION?? That teachers determine curricula?

That teachers can change the law and make staying in school until graduation mandatory?

You have no clue. Is it youth or ignorance?

[dkf]

27. What stops a teacher from teaching?

Even if they are forced to test that doesn't preclude them from teaching what they feel is necessary.

By my biggest gripe is how we seem to have no concern for the future we condemn these kids to. Where is the outrage?

[Luminous Animal]

122. Actually teaching to the test does bar a teacher from teaching to the student.

A friend of mine, who taught 6th grade math, was not allowed to use unapproved (by the admin) teaching aids to reach kids who were struggling with the district's materials. He was not allowed to teach through art or music or movement. It was the admin's way or else. He quit. The methods that he was not allowed to use in the classroom he employs, more lucratively, as a private tutor.

[dkf]

158. I would consider that a problem.

Was this a regular public school or a charter school? Maybe a charter school environment would allow this?

[Luminous Animal]

171. It was a regular public school Which begs the questions...

1) Why are charter schools given the "freedom" that public schools do not have? That is, why are they exempt from democratic, that is, community and parental oversight?
2) Do charter schools actually give teachers the freedom to use their own initiative and freedom to teach to the student and not to the curriculum? Every charter school teacher I know says no.
3) Why should he accept a charter school job at 3/4s the pay and few of the benefits and no job security? After all, he has a family to raise, as well.

[Honeycombe8]

249. Teaching to the test DOES teach what the kids need to know....right?

That confuses me....why some think that teaching to a test is wrong, and some think it's right. If the test is devised to cover the basics of knowledge and skill and independent thought...then wouldn't "teaching to the test" be, in fact, teaching what kids ought to learn in school? That may not be ALL that kids need to learn in school, but surely the basics would be a need to know.

[WinkyDink]

147. WHERE DO YOU GET THE "SEEM TO HAVE NO CONCERN" FROM??

AND BTW: I REPEAT: YOU HAVE NO CLUE.

Teachers in MANY districts cannot deviate from the WRITTEN CURRICULUM, not in subject matter, lesson plan, or calendar.

Did you go to an American public school?

[dkf]

161. Someone keeps telling me the dropout rate hasn't changed...like it's no big deal.

And I went to public school, and scored decently well enough that I got a letter from MIT inviting me to apply there, which I thought was hilarious. Do I have any idea whether my teachers were deviating from approved curriculum? Not really.

I once had a summer job as a secretary for a couple of resource teachers and I know those plans were not mandatory.

[pinboy3niner]

193. "Someone keeps telling me" is another form of the bogus "Some say."

Fux Nooze uses that a lot to inject their own partisan views into the "news."

[Wednesdays]

229. Hey, someone keeps telling me I'm gonna win the lottery

I can't wait to check my bank account tomorrow! :rofl:

[pinboy3niner]

232. LOL!

Congratulations--you'll be on Easy Street, now! If someone keeps telling you, it's gotta be valid, right?

:rofl:

[riderinthestorm]

198. "Once had a job?..." SNORT!

But with NCLB, those plans ARE mandatory now....

This is precisely what people are complaining about!

[dkf]

205. NCLB just specifies that methods be scientifically based.

It does not require the teaching of a specific curriculum. That is the pervue of the locals.

[Hannah Bell]

227. "purview". I learned how to spell that at a public school.

[WinkyDink]

246. 1. Resource room = Special Ed. flexible. 2. MIT invited you? I find that hilarious, too.

[fascisthunter]

2. he's not fixing it... he's recreating it

and in the process, public education will suffer more defunding, putting millions of kid's education in jeopardy.

[dkf]

34. Yet don't you agree charter school are advocated because the system as it stands isn't flexible?

Why else would you go that route?

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. Charters are advocated because they are profitable

If they weren't we wouldn't have them.

[MedicalAdmin]

164. Where can I get that bumper sticker?

Please, I have to have one. I must, I must, I must.

I live in Michelle Bachmanns district (It's not my fault - I swear it) and I simply must have this bumper sticker.

[Telly Savalas]

224. How much profit did charters make in the state of Missouri over the past 5 years?

[Wednesdays]

230. Are you a stockholder?

:shrug:

[truth2power]

243. Succinctly put! Thank you, p2BK. This entire train wreck

is being perpetrated by a corporatist Prez. (profits, again) who is not a professional educator, and his Sec'y of Education, Arne Duncan, who has never spent one day as a classroom teacher.

I would encourage DUers who are beating the drum for Obama's education policy to read Diane Ravitch's, "The Death and Life of the Great American School System", especially Chapter 8, "The Trouble With Accountability". That chapter explains, in plain English, what testing is and what it isn't, as well as addressing other important issues that relate to student achievement or the lack thereof.

[proud2BlibKansan]

250. And also the chapter on the Billionaire Boys Club

That's very enlightening.

[Luminous Animal]

123. Who creates and enforces the system. Not teachers, that's for sure.

[dkf]

166. Maybe not teachers individually, but how about the teacher's union?

[Catshrink]

168. Oh boy.... you couldn't resist slamming the unions, could you?

You must be one of those who believe it's okay to abitarily fire someone for their politics, religions, or sexual orientation. Or because you want to give the job to your niece. Or maybe you just want to back to the era of robber barons when workers of any kind had no rights. A corporatist to the very soul. Yep.

[dkf]

173. No I don't believe that arbitrary firings are okay.

But I do believe that ineffectiveness is a cause for termination because a good education depends on good foundations. Maybe we can argue about what constitutes ineffectiveness but in the end I am sure people in the profession know who the weak links are.

And if it's the administrators then they need to go too. I've been told the way to get rid of bad teachers is to promote them. Seriously.

[Catshrink]

184. Those voices again, huh?

Seriously, you have zero credibility on anything. By the positions that you advocate repeatedly, it's hard to reach a conclusion other than that you do indeed support arbitrary firing of teachers for any reason. Really, the best response to anything you write is a great big :rofl: if not a yawn.

[dkf]

192. Actually that is a quote from someone currently in the system who does complain about

their principal. This person has friends who are teachers, professionals and yes principals and former principals in their closest circles so I can empathize with your problem with administration. I do hear it all the time after all.

[pinboy3niner]

206. "I've been told." Yet another 'sumsay' assertion. Thanks for calling it out.

Why am I reminded of the old expression, "Look what the cat dragged in"? :)

Thanks again. Louis, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful relationship. :toast:

[dkf]

212. Okay it's my sister and her colleagues.

Happy now?

[pinboy3niner]

214. Happy? Hardly.

You say, "I've been told the way to get rid of bad teachers is to promote them. Seriously."

Now you tell us your sister and her colleagues told you.

That doesn't even begin to qualify as anecdotal evidence, much less any real support for your assertions.

There's no 'there' there.

(Ed. for emphasis.)

[Wednesdays]

231. Someone in the system keeps telling me I'm gonna win the lottery!

(Psst, don't tell anyone...it's my sister.)

:spray:

[pinboy3niner]

235. Your sister must be a GENIUS!

But you can trust me. My lips are sealed.

:rofl:

[JDPriestly]

221. Teachers who are ineffective can be fired already. Don't let anyone

tell you any different. It is hard to prove a teacher is ineffective, not because of the unions but because no one has devised a reliable test for teacher effectiveness. The scores of the kids really don't mean much. One of the reasons we have such a high drop-out rate is that kids feel they are not scoring well or doing well and because they are bored. School, remember, has to compete with MTV, drugs, gangs and sports. It's really tough to make a math lesson seem interesting to a kid who is thinking about his favorite movie star or sports team or drug.

[Luminous Animal]

191. They do. They advocate over and over and over again for smaller class sizes...

assistants in the classroom, adequate supplies, team and co-teaching, flexibility with methods, discipline support from admin. It is as if you've never had a conversation with a teacher. Teacher's have been making these requests for decades.

[JDPriestly]

220. No. If the teachers' union had more say about curriculum and

organization, our schools would be much better than they are.

What makes the teachers' unions so unpopular with the Walton/Walmart/Gates/Broad crowd is that they insist that teachers should have due process before being fired and that teachers should be paid decently.

Due process does not mean that you keep your job no matter what. It just means that you cannot be fired without an explanation. The authoritarian types do not like having to give employees of any kind due process. They want employment at will. They want the right to fire their employees on a whim, a bad perfume, a sloppy pair of shoes -- whoosh, the employee is fired. Teachers are professionals and should be treated with respect. Due process is the least of the things they should be entitled to enjoy.

I think that wealthy people and Wall Street also do not want to have to make good on the teachers' pensions. But those pensions are actually deferred pay. The pensions belong to the teachers, not to anyone else.

Without teachers' unions and decent salaries, the teaching profession will not attract well trained, well educated people. Teachers can barely pay back their student loans on what they now get paid. I know a teacher who was laid off this year. She is older and owes way over $50,000 in loans. She is in a very bad situation.

[csziggy]

233. Teachers unions do not administer school systems

And do not determine the budgets for the school year. Voters decide how much they are willing to pay in taxes to support school systems, then politicians, school boards, and school administrators decide where that money is spent.

For decades, people have voted to reduce taxes, and only NOW are they wondering why our systems are failing. It does not take a big leap of logic to figure out if you spend less per student, allow school buildings to deteriorate, refuse to purchase materials and supplies, cut teachers salaries so the smarter teachers leave for more profitable professions, increase class sizes and cut the hours in school, you are creating the conditions we have today. Add to all of that, increasing poverty and more cultural diversity (without allowing resources to assist students to transition into their new country) add additional stresses to an overburdened system, and you have a guarantee of schools that can no longer teach effectively..

I place the blame directly on the Republican Party. They took Reagan's concept of government being the enemy and turned it into a self fulfilling prophesy. "Government is bad!" so cut the size down and down and down, to the point that it can no longer provide even the basic services we expect from our government at all levels. When it fails, cut it some more. Yeah, that's the ticket to improving our systems, drain them dry and try to get blood from that stone.

And all those tax cuts did not come to the average American - they mostly went to that top 1% who make more money than they can possibly spend. So they use some of that extra money to brainwash the rest of us to fight against each other instead seeing where the system is really failing.

[Luminous Animal]

234. The teachers unions do not create the educational system. They may have a few years

where the politicians agree and cut back class size but the next economic downturn they are back to 36 kids to a classroom.

Show me a school district where educators make policy and have the clout to enforce policy and we might agree that that is a successful system.

[WinkyDink]

247. What would MIT say about your incorrect use of possessives?

[DireStrike]

144. They're advocated so they can break the teachers' unions.

[JDPriestly]

218. So, make the current system flexible.

We don't need a whole separate, new school system to give teachers more autonomy and make schools more flexible.

Fire administrators, not teachers.

[zipplewrath]

3. Actually, there's alot stopping them.

Administrators, principals, school boards, they are all interfering with teachers ability to impliment "better ideas". And teachers "volunteer" alot of suggestions and time and effort to improve things. In fact one of their prime complaints is that the Obama administration doesn't put professional educators on their commissions and panels and instead picks up folks like Duncan and puts them in charge instead.

[dkf]

28. Where are the teachers who post their great idea and how they were stopped by their administrators?

Maybe if I saw them I could agree and support them.

[zipplewrath]

93. Go to your local school and ask

Do you know any teachers? Ask them.

I've read alot of things around here. The best ones have to do with unburdening the teachers with truly administrative tasks. The return of planning hours that are truly left to the teachers as planning hours. The presence of teachers aides to handle particular educational and behavioral issues.

[WinkyDink]

149. Oh, yes; why don't we just jump through your hoops.

[pinboy3niner]

167. Louis, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

:toast:

[WinkyDink]

248. :-)

[MedicalAdmin]

170. Here's my story.

I was a teacher. I took a middle of the road program and turned it into a showcase that was featured on the main page of newspapers in a 3 state area. We had colleges calling us to see how we did what we did. They wanted me to consult on thier projects. In short I was pretty good at my job. The kids were exited and spending extra time at school to work with me. Parents were volunteering at a place where they hadn't historically. One older teacher told me that what I had done was a freakin miracle. He also warned me to watch my ass. Turns out that was good advice.

I was fired because I didn't follow the curriculum completely. I ditched the parts that didn't work for my current students and I would have re-evaluated for the next batch. But the principal, superintendant, and school board all didn't give a shit. I was fired. And what was worse the principal personally called every other administrator in the area and blackballed me. I couldn't get a teaching job in this state to save my life. The message to the rest of the teachers was clear. Fuck with us and we will bury your ass in a field.

And teachers are blamed. You, especially seem to have a hard on about teachers. WTF is that about?

Does a cop blame the kid in the back seat of a speeding car or does the cop give the ticket to the driver? The power and authority is schools is NOT with the teachers?

You ask, to paraphrase, "why don't teachers just do what they need to and damn what they are told to do?" Do you have bills, kids, responsibilities? So do teachers and because they get jack shit in pay compared to their education debt load, they have no financial savings (for the most part). And with teaching there is a very narrow window for getting hired. You either have a job come fall or you are unemployed for the year. If that happens a few times then you won't even be able to get hired again. It's a rough gig.

Tell me Mr Outrage, do you basically tell your boss to go fuck himself - you are doing the job the way you think it should happen, how it should happpen, and only that parts you think you should do? If so, how many minutes did it take him to fire your ass?

Here's a quarter - go buy yourself a clue.

[dkf]

207. What confuses me is that there seems to be no ability to teach things the way they say and

Supplement it. If a kid doesn't get it the way it's supposed to be taught and then you use another method that does work are you then fired?

And thanks for this post. It helps to illustrate how successes are undermined which is what I am interested in understanding.

[Brickbat]

4. Every time I see a teacher come up with an idea, I see people shoot it down because it's expensive,

or because the union endorsed it, or -- most of all -- because it came from a teacher and not a high-paid consultant.

[donco6]

5. "Can't do anything about poverty"

Spoken like a true Republican. Kudos!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

20. If you don't tackle the education system then there isn't.

You should always quote all of a conditional statement rather than trying to pass it off as an absolute.

And I would say it's fairly self-evident that any attempt to decrease poverty in America which doesn't involve increasing the number of children of poor parents who get a decent education is going to have extremely limited success.

[dkf]

32. Yes. We do not seem to be able to recognize root causes of poverty.

Teachers are the best hope a child in poverty has. If a teacher says they can't do much for a child who is poor, that child's story is mostly written.

[Hannah Bell]

120. bullshit. the root cause of poverty = not enough decent-paying jobs to go around, or iow

a small minority hoarding productive assets.

you think if everyone had a HS degree poverty would decrease?

no, a college degree would just become the new normal. as it already has, since 85% of adults *do* have a HS degree.

[Catshrink]

124. Don't forget: it's the teacher's fault the child is poor.

[Luminous Animal]

126. Study after study has shown that poverty is the major contributer to failure in school.

Hunger is not a motivator. I really think you have no clue how poor children live. The nagging hunger, the lack of sleep because of the nagging hunger, the constant worry about the family, and the consistent stress over food, bills, heat, home, neighbors and neighborhood.

Teachers can not even begin to alleviate the demoralizing, soul sucking, illness inducing (both mental & physical) affects or poverty on children.

[mediaman007]

6. Very simply, education is not the problem, poverty is!

There is a distinct correlation between poverty and not passing the multitude of tests that we give our students.

If families are in poverty, the problems they have to overcome are so immense that education is not high on their list. Sadly, corporate America and politicians have chosen teachers and their unions to be the whipping boy for the problem. The truth is that millions of teachers do more to address and overcome poverty than any of the corporations in the country.

[HereSince1628]

13. Kids with no vision of a future see no point to invest in that future

Kids are no different than anyone else.

The vision kids have their future is built on what they see around them. Horatio Alger stories not withstanding, poverty provides a dim view of the future.

[Catshrink]

7. Make no mistake about it: this OP is a direct attack on DU teachers

by someone dedicated to teacher bashing. Where are your solutions, dkf? Bash teachers, demoralize teachers, crucify them in the media and then expect them to work wonders?

You want my solution? Get the politicians out of my classroom and let me do my job: teach content, not to a test that says nothing. Reduce class sizes so I can reach each child - 40 kids in a class is not conducive to that.

BTW, the dropout rate has been 30% for over 40 years. No, that isn't a good thing but why are you concerned now? Obama/Duncan's approach is only going to make it worse by further marginalize the kids who need help most. It doesn't help that the feds only reimburse the states 21% of the cost of special education but have massive requirements for reporting and educating those kids. Where does the money come from to comply with federal regulations? The regular ed kids - their class sizes have ballooned. Even more money is siphoned off for the test publishers. That was the point of nclb - enrich the BFEE.

[WinkyDink]

10. Not fooled! And don't ya love the straw-man premise? Don't expect OP to return.

[a la izquierda]

31. +1

I'll add teacher bashing to the Mexico bashing that I usually see from the OP author.

[dkf]

39. I'm worried about it now because people used to be able to survive doing manual labor

But they can't anymore because there's always someone from another country who will do it cheaper.

I am not able to sit aside and condemn kids to a life of want. The mentality that poor kids can't learn is abhorrent to me on a visceral level and I won't accept anybody who concludes that and mostly I see this being spouted by teachers.

[Catshrink]

48. That's bullshit

No teacher is saying that poor kids can't learn. Your hatred is getting the better of you.

[dkf]

64. I'm glad you feel that being poor does not mean a child can't learn.

That is the message I am getting.

[Hannah Bell]

121. perhaps you'd better stop listening to the voices in your head, then. because no one on this board

has said poor kids can't learn.

[Catshrink]

125. +1

[dkf]

154. Then what is blaming poverty for poor scores?

[Catshrink]

163. You like to run in circles

and sometimes the hamsters falls asleep in the wheel.

[dkf]

165. Do you know how many of these threads assert low scores are not due to teachers but due to poverty?

It is countless!

[Catshrink]

169. And just why do you think that is?

Some people just can't buy a clue.

[MedicalAdmin]

172. It's identifying a root cause -- you twit!

No teacher here, to the best of my knowledge, has ever issued the blanket statement that poor kids can't learn. Prove me wrong.

Don't blame us if you aren't interested in the answers to your questions about education. Teachers tell you and tell you what some of the solutions are and you respond with vitriol and obfuscation.

[ecstatic]

194. umm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=9213947

[Catshrink]

196. The post you linked to does NOT say that poor children CAN'T learn

what it does is tie poverty to student achievement. Given the same resources and attention, those children can achieve at the same level as their suburban counterparts. That's what those who know what they're talking about are advocating for. But, when kids start school far behind others, due to health issues, lack of nutrition, lack of parental attention, preschool and opportunity, they have a lot to overcome. Really, do you think a child who has never held a book until he or she enters kindergarten has the same advantages as one from suburbia whose mother read to him or her in the womb and forced Baby Einstein on him/her as a toddler?

Please read more carefully. Or are you another DU corporatist?

[Hannah Bell]

215. um, what? what is your point?

[Catshrink]

225. Notice no reply

Typical of bullies - when confronted they run.

[Hannah Bell]

226. They got nothing but talking points from right-wing think-tanks.

And McCarthyite witch-hunting tactics.

[mediaman007]

203. They are more often not ready to learn and probably

years behind their middle/upper class classmates. The poor students have less background and readiness and a steeper hill to climb. No one takes them to the zoo before the age of five. No one reads to them at night; they probably don't have books.

[Luminous Animal]

127. Poor children have an extremely difficult time learning when they are consumed with hunger...

and stress. We, as a society, already condemn poor children to a life of want by expecting them to excel under the most odious of circumstances. A teacher cannot change those circumstances.

Teachers do believe that any kid CAN learn but teachers are not responsible for ensuring that every child is well-fed, well-housed, and well-clothed. Those variables are up to the rest of us.

Where is YOUR outrage that we allow children and their families to exist, in the wealthiest nation in human history, in grinding poverty.

[dkf]

201. We have breakfast and lunch programs for poor kids.

Don't we?

[Luminous Animal]

228. In some places, yes. In some places.

[Wednesdays]

236. And, quite often the school meal is the only meal they get all day

nt

[Luminous Animal]

238. For a while, during my youth, many days out of the week, the most food I got in a day...

was the uneaten food off of other students trays.

[WinkyDink]

152. That is a lie. Go away.

[tigereye]

211. no one is saying that poor kids can't learn

:eyes:

[JDPriestly]

222. Then support your local teachers' union and forget about charter schools.

Teachers study child development, the psychology of learning, all the things a person needs to know in order to help kids learn. How many of the people on Obama's staff making decisions about education have taken those courses.

I never actually taught elementary or high school after getting my education degree and completing my student teaching. But the courses that I was required to take to get my education degree have been invaluable to me as a parent and just as a person.

Teachers earn their pay. I was utterly exhausted during my few months as a student teacher.

You have to step into a teacher's shoes before you judge a teacher.

[proud2BlibKansan]

177. +1,000,000

[LeftinOH]

8. My Aunt had 6 kids- they all dropped out of high school (1970s-1980s)

for no reason other than that it was "too hard" or simply because they were were legally old enough (16 years old) to be permitted to do so. Their home life wasn't bad, but it was a struggle: Menial jobs, too-early marriages, etc. My cousins did not value education because their parents didn't. Generally, people who complete high-school themselves do NOT have kids of their own who drop out.

[WinkyDink]

11. I, too, have drop-out cousins, 5, to be exact. Their older cousins (incl. moi) went to grad school.

Go figure.

[sammytko]

30. same here and its been going on since school began

Was there ever a time when schools were run efficiently and all graduated and went on to lead properous lives?

FB friends were discussing the old school days - late 60s/70s and even then we had jr high age girls drop out and get pregnant - good girls from good families!

My cousins who never finished school are doing well in general contracting and electrical work. They are easy going people who just don't like schedules - lol. They work when they want and support themselves on what they make.

[Igel]

81. Go figure, indeed.

My father had 6 siblings. My cousins are legion.

Two of them have kids who went to college. The rest didn't.

Where we grew up, more kids wanted to go to college than actually attended. Parents didn't push the kids to go to college. "What do you want to go to college for? Working at the steel mill was good enough for me, it was good enough for your uncles, it was good enough for your grandpa. What, you think you're better than us?"

Didn't hear it many times. Most of the kids expected to get the same well-paid union jobs their fathers had. Even as the steel mill was laying off and closing down.

Bad childhood educational achievement > poverty. Parents need to step up or find somebody to step up for them. Early childhood programs are great--but the push, the exposure, parents give doesn't stop in 1st grade. It matters right through high school.

Or, as one mother I overheard during our school's open house last year said, "You can't add those two numbers? Look here, one mouse and one mouse. What you get? Stupid girl. It's simple. You get two mouses! Two mouses, and you din't know that?" That mom was obviously in MOFDA, "Mothers of Future Dropouts of America".

[msanthrope]

9. Apaprently there are mystery threads and journals where teacher and union-led

reform is discussed in rational tones.

Though I've asked to see said threads, they've never been produced or linked to.

You can see what is currently in GD page 1 as an example of what is usually done--bash Obama and Duncan, but offer nothing of substance.

[WinkyDink]

12. Oh, now I get it: An opinion must always be accompanied by a "solution".

[msanthrope]

17. Not always--but it would be a refreshing change on an 'education' thread. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

33. yes, the right-wing think tank set has lots of "solutions". but the "problems" = how to bust unions

pay fewer taxes, & make more money.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9363477&mesg_id=9363477

[JackDragna]

139. That's a strawman if I've ever seen one.

The oldest political debate tactic in the book is to criticize the opposition for "not offering solutions!" When a person offers up idea "X" (such as charter schools), I am not obligated to provide a complex, holistic solution to the problem "X" tries to address when "X" is a bad idea. I don't see you asking teachers very often how to fix the problem, so maybe if you asked, you'd get these "solutions" you crave. Jesus Christ.

[Hannah Bell]

15. another regular teacher-basher weighs in.

[dkf]

24. What is a school other than teachers?

[Recursion]

83. And there's the problem

A school is also administrators, support staff, the community around it, the funding system that pays for it, the laws that create and regulate it, oh, and.... students, and their families.

I will grant you that on the whole educators have not come up with an evaluation system for themselves that works very well. And that there's overall too much focus on pedagogy and too little on subject mastery. And even that the idea of a 40-year career as a teacher may not be relevant to today's economic realities. But teachers are not the entirity of a school by any means.

[Posteritatis]

91. To say nothing of the physical assets

The building itself, the neighborhood, the contents of both; transportation if the school (or its students) are out-of-the-way, maybe even ease of access to the school by people at the district level of above.

If it's not physically safe to get there and back, there's a problem. If the building itself is falling apart, or has nasty environmental problems - or, tied to "physically safe," is fortified enough to give off prison vibes - there's a problem. If the library's wretched enough that the newest book on astronomy predates the moon landings (as was the case at my high school in the late nineties), there's a problem.

There's a whole lot of things that can kick off a nice crap cascade if they're in poor enough shape; dedicated, excellent teachers in a broken, demoralized school/neighborhood are going to be fighting an uphill battle just as much as people who set up a school as a cathedral of knowledge in a wonderful neighborhood but who aren't able to attract engaged, competent instructors. A nasty set of administrators can worsen either, or an especially good administration can turn around a hole of a school.

The situation's way too complex for the all-we-have-to-do-is-this-one-thing approach.

[dkf]

112. Is the physical condition of the school really all that important?

Personally I've had nice desks and crappy desks and it's all the same to me. I've had to study for professional exams in my non air conditioned house and I did just fine too...better than if I had studied in my air conditioned office.

[Posteritatis]

114. Sure it is

Your treating "nice desks and crappy desks" as somehow comparable to schools where the air quality sickens students or where classes get cancelled regularly die to pipe ruptures is somewhat silly.

Also, an adult studying for professional certifications is not a second grader.

[Recursion]

117. My God yes

And it's not a question of comfortable desks, it's a question of schools having dangerous toxins and molds, or lead paint, or not having heat in the winter.

[apocalypsehow]

130. My grandfather's elementary school wasn't heated, all six years he went there. He graduated from

Princeton. Your reply is the textbook definition of a false dilemma. :thumbsdown:

[Name removed]

133. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Posteritatis]

135. When your grandfather was in school graduation rates were probably under 50%. (nt)

[apocalypsehow]

137. He graduated from high school in 1935, and from Princeton in 1940. I'd be interested to see a link

provided that shows what the graduation rates were during this period. Got one? :shrug:

[Posteritatis]

138. I do, in fact, with reference to the primary source:

http://www.safeandcivilschools.com/research/graduation_rates.php

It's got a blank in the 1930s (though I can't imagine the rate was terribly high through the worst of the Depression), but the graduation rate for 29-30 was 29% and 39-40 was 50.8%.

[Luminous Animal]

141. So it appears that apocalypsehow's popsicle grand daddy was an exception

not the rule.

[Posteritatis]

143. Possibly an exception with lots of company, but still, yeah

I'd love to find the Depression-era statistics, though; this whole thread's gotten me curious about the whole century-long trend. If I find them I'll add them into this subthread. There's some surprising jumps up and down over the course of that chart and I'd love to see how they turn out on a year-by-year level.

[apocalypsehow]

151. A whole lot of company - as in, at least 50% of the country. But you'll have to pardon my fan club:

they get excitable whenever they see my name pop up in a thread, and react accordingly. It's quite flattering.

[apocalypsehow]

146. That shows percentage that graduated, not the percentage who attended but either flunked or dropped

out. I'd be interested to see a statistical table that showed that percentage - I bet it'd confirm my thesis exactly.

[WinkyDink]

159. Yes, and I'd reckon the students of Socrates learned pretty well, too. What's your point, in 2010?

[MedicalAdmin]

178. My grandpa's school was unheated too...

And he and his 10 siblings had to walk uphill both ways in the snow. The family only owned one pair of shoes so the family dog would walk with the first kid to school. That kid would take off his shoes, hand them to the dog, who would run back to their unheated shack, give the shoes to the next kid who would put them on and walk to school with the family dog. This was repeated until all 10 kids were at school.

Of course my grandpa didn't go to princeton because his dad mistook him for a lump of coal one day and shoved him in the oven.


Or I could simply say that to compare a person raised in a basically single wage earner agrarian society to a person raised in a single parent urban society separated by about 70 years is nonsense.



edit to correct typo - whoops.

[apocalypsehow]

181. "separated by about 70 years in nonsense" - LOL. n/t.

[Wednesdays]

237. So, on which computer did your grandad learn Microsoft Word?

Did he apply to Princeton by going to their website, or did he fax it in? :shrug:

Come to think of it, what was the admission rate for non-whites back then?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

183. No, wait, let me guess... uphill both ways, right?

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dkf]

96. To me a school is a room with a teacher.

The student is the consumer of what is put before them. That was how I got through school.

I never had to deal with an administrator in all my years of schooling, indeed I don't remember much one on one time either.

[Recursion]

99. I was a sysadmin for a while. If you do that right, nobody in the company knows you

You're just up in your bat cave doing your thing and the servers hum along smoothly.

Think of an administrator as being like that. As long as he or she does her job right, the student shouldn't even know they are there.

[Posteritatis]

115. You don't think your definition of a school might be a good half-century or more out of date? (nt)

[Luminous Animal]

131. Consumer? Most teachers think of their students as participants. BTW, what do you think an...

administrator does? Who do you think has to deal with one? Who do you think is the boss? Who do you think sets the curriculum? Who do you think enforces that curriculum?

Why do you suppose you didn't have much one on one time? How many minutes in a week to you think a student should get one on one time?

[MedicalAdmin]

186. First of all he doesn't think.

And second of all he has no fucking clue and no desire to get one. He sat in a desk once so he's an expert, dontcha know?

[DireStrike]

150. I've never waded into these teacher threads before, but

I think you're woefully underinformed, if you think that teachers are the only ones that affect the interactions between kids and teachers, in MAJOR ways.

[Igel]

89. Students. n/t

[yurbud]

92. funding and administrators, that determine class size, legislators who often dictate curriculum, and

the environment that kids come from.

and the discipline options available when some kids won't settle down.

[Luminous Animal]

129. Administrators. Politicians. Parents. Curriculum. Students. Educational resources. Money.

[laughingliberal]

26. Teacher bashing:

Alan Grayson (92 posts) Tue Oct-19-10 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #10
69. Teachers

The right wing has vilified public schools and teachers for a generation. My opponent homeschooled his six children, and then sponsored legislation to increase class sizes in elementary schools to 60. 60!! They won't stop until they have destroyed public education throughout America. So we have to stop them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=9346287#9347045

[Warpy]

14. We do things so stupidly in this country

What we should be doing is following the European model, with a general diploma issued at 16 and two more years of academics offered for kids on a college track and two years of trade school offered to kids who are not.

I don't cry about 30% not graduating because all kids aren't interested and/or talented in academics. It's crazy to prolong their misery to 18 when we could graduate them like the rest of the world does and offer them training that would allow them to do something besides the unskilled labor that doesn't require a high school diploma. We're wasting those kids while other countries are wise enough to realize where their strengths are.

[msanthrope]

19. It is an interesting model to compare to...

Adn I agree, we need real training for those who do not wish to pursue academics.

[eShirl]

51. Yes! Why DON'T we model these successful systems instead of reinventing the wheel?

[Luminous Animal]

134. Because there is no money in it for hedge fund managers.

[MedicalAdmin]

188. Almost every other industrialized nation follows a form of this model.

Why don't we? Because 'Merica is number 1.

Duuuuuuuuuuuh.

[ecstatic]

16. And the stories about charter kids going to college are always met

with extreme bitterness. The reaction around here towards poor kids getting a shot and higher education is down right creepy.

[msanthrope]

22. It's because the poor aren't doing it the way the 'intelligentsia' have deemed appropriate....

there are a few threads on here that discuss attitudes of unions and some teachers toward minority parents who support charters...

They are quite a read.

[Luminous Animal]

128. Grossly untrue. Charters cull the herd and the bitterness is that the lies are taken for truth.

Any teacher here and elsewhere will cheer on any child who makes it through ElHi and onto college. What they won't cheer is the PR coup on the backs of poor and/or failing children who are forced out of the charter system.

[MedicalAdmin]

189. Absolute statement are always false.

I'm not bitter about it. Heck - back when I was a public school teacher I worked in only inner city and poor rural areas.

And I made it my personal mission to get EVERY kid I taught off to college or technical school or something better than dropping out. Was I successful all the time - nope - only about 70% of the time.

If you can add then add my 70% success rate with the 30% drop out rate ... hmmmmm. 100% of the kids accounted for. Am I happy about this. Fuck no. Did I try my best to change it? Yes. And I got fired for my efforts.

What's creepy to me is the usual cast of good germans who come onto eduation posts and forums and post blame rather than solutions. Charters are just the type of deregulation that right wingers, privatizers, and hedge fund managers/criminals love. Have you ever considered the company you keep?

[Bragi]

18. Yes, symptoms of social inequity enrage me

The high the family's income, the more likely their children will succeed in school.

What part of that is hard to understand?

The problem is that economic and social inequalities are growing in America, not decreasiong.

Tinkering with schooling techniques doesn't address the real problem.

[Igel]

88. What part of it is hard to understand?

Cause and effect, it would seem.

Poverty can contribute to poor educational outcomes. So can racism. And bad teachers.

On the other hand, those are very, very far from 100% of the contributing factors.

However, as soon as you start pointing to the truly big factors you wind up being accused of blaming the victims--as though the victims in a kid's poor educational outcome were the parents.

I look at the teenagers on my block and see the parents complaining that they simply don't have time to spend with them. No, they're having BBQs, parties, and watching tv. One must have one's priorities properly arranged, it would appear.

[Stargazer99]

21. I've talked to several college graduates

and some are unable to find employment. Education is a solution to a certain point but it is not the solution. Wake up and start talking to the unemployed, you will learn something you probably won't like.

[jdlh8894]

35. An education should be

something YOU WANT,not NEED! From day one,a baby knows what it wants.

[laughingliberal]

23. Grayson:

Alan Grayson (92 posts) Tue Oct-19-10 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #10

69. Teachers

The right wing has vilified public schools and teachers for a generation. My opponent homeschooled his six children, and then sponsored legislation to increase class sizes in elementary schools to 60. 60!! They won't stop until they have destroyed public education throughout America. So we have to stop them.


From the OP:

<When Obama attempts to fix this all he gets is hate from people who seem to mostly care about teachers rights, not a student's right...>

Vilifying teachers. It's not just for right wingers anymore!


Alan Grayson (92 posts) Tue Oct-19-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
187. Education Reform

The fundamental problem in education that I see today is that it is devolving into factory education, where we teach reading, writing, counting and little else. That is completely unsuited for the 21st century. We have over 100 million jobs in this country, and they are 100 million different jobs. Hardly ever do you see two people doing the same thing. So we need an education system that focuses on the unique attributes of each child -- interests, talents, skills -- and cultivates them. The things that makes us special are not the things that make us the same, they are the things that make us different. Of course we need more funding for public education, because to do it right, that education has to be as diverse as we are.

Note that this 'factory style education' is exactly where the current 'reforms' are leading.


Alan Grayson (92 posts) Tue Oct-19-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #89
219. Education Reform

I gave a pretty long answer to a similar question above. It's fine to set goals and hold contests, but the problems in public education go a lot deeper than that.

Doesn't seem overly impressed with RTTT

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=9346287

[KamaAina]

25. That's right. It's all the teachers' fault.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

The same teachers who, in many places, are forced to pay for basic school supplies like pencils and chalk out of their own pockets. Clearly they're the ones who are undermining the whole system. :sarcasm:

And who, might I ask, is insisting that poor kids are the problem??

Here's one idea (and I'm not even a teacher): Start tying funding levels to total enrollment, not actual classroom attendance. That penalizes poor districts that have higher absentee rates.

[msanthrope]

29. "Start tying funding levels to total enrollment."

Why pay for children who aren't there?

How about adequate funding for kids who are there, when they are there.

[KamaAina]

46. Lots of them are there

they're just not there every day.

Especially by high school age, poor kids have family responsibilities that your basic affluent suburban kid doesn't. Plus there's more sickness in poor areas, etc., etc.

[msanthrope]

56. I agree--but there's no reasona school should get funding for a student

who has dropped out. I'm not talking about absences, but about kids who dropped out.

I want to see more equitable funding across the board--including facilities funding. Poorer schools tend to be older schools, and need more money to maintain.

[Pisces]

36. The throwaway kids are never mentioned by some on DU. The kids

seem to take a backseat to hurt feelings that some teachers have been called bad. I agree with you. Where are the solutions to help these kids now. Ending poverty seems to be a recurrent theme
to some threads. It is therefore ironic that ending the cycle of poverty happens when you get these kids to graduate and go to college. Someone is offering a lifeline to these kids and we are suppose
to get up in arms about it because it isn't the way unions want to do it????

What are we suppose to tell the kids now. I am all for public education, however, all public education is not equal. If you live in poor, urban areas you are not getting the best teachers and you are not
getting the same education that kids in wealthy, suburban areas are getting.

Charter schools are not for every area, however, some of these schools have been able to produce solid results in poverty stricken areas that have drop out schools. That shouts volumes to me,
because all of those children have now been given an opportunity that would otherwise have had none.

Hurt feelings should be the last thing we are worried about. The success of children should be the only thing we consider.

[laughingliberal]

40. The Charters have no special love for throwaway kids

If they don't perform well on standardized tests, they are kicked out and placed back in the traditional public school system to drive down that school's scores and keep the appearance of the 'success' of the Charter schools in place.

Americans are suckers for a good con game.

[KamaAina]

47. And if they have disabilities, they're screened out in the first place

bear in mind that, since they receive public funding, charters are subject to the same laws as traditional public schools, including the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).

[msanthrope]

53. Not in Philly. You can't be denied a spot due to disability. If you win your

lottery, the SD pays the charter for your specal ed, because the charter schools are public schools, and are overseen by the School District.

My neighbor's three kids go to the same charter, and they all get services.

Charters can be very different.

[KamaAina]

57. Well, then, good for Philly.

New York and New Orleans, to name two cities that are jumping on the charter bandwagon feet first, could stand to emulate you.

[Recursion]

85. Which is why they don't get screened out

I can't speak for all jurisdictions, but generally just like any other public school a charter has to take all comers, for free. For that matter there are charter schools that specialize in educating students with disabilities.

[KamaAina]

94. Well, it seems to be happening, at least in NYC

http://nymag.com/news/features/65614/index4.html

Based on available statistics, however, charter schools have fewer of these families, including the poorest of the poor. One problem with “school choice,” as writer-activist Jonathan Kozol noted, is that the “ultimate choices” tend to get made “by those who own or operate a school.” At stake is not just who gets in, but who stays in. Studies show “selective attrition” in the KIPP chain, among others, with academic stragglers—including those seen as disruptive or in need of pricey services—leaving in greater numbers. In one flagrant local example, East New York Preparatory discharged 48 students shortly before last year’s tests, among them seven poor-scoring third-graders. (Citing financial mismanagement, the Department of Education plans to revoke the school’s charter in June.)

At Harlem Success, disability is a dirty word. “I’m not a big believer in special ed,” Fucaloro says. For many children who arrive with individualized education programs, or IEPs, he goes on, the real issues are “maturity and undoing what the parents allow the kids to do in the house—usually mama—and I reverse that right away.” When remediation falls short, according to sources in and around the network, families are counseled out. “Eva told us that the school is not a social-service agency,” says the Harlem Success teacher. “That was an actual quote.”

[Pisces]

52. I don't think you have investigated the SEED program where kids that are reading

at a 4th grade level in 8th grade are helped to graduate and go to college. THere are no academic requirements. Anyone who gets in is welcome to stay. Maybe we are talking about 2 different things.
I am not defending all charter schools, I am talking about the people trying to help urban areas, where there are throwaway children. Where poverty is your lot in life. The chain of poverty is being
broken by some of these specific charters designated to help in drop out areas.

I think you want to attack all charters and lump them in as one group. I have no agenda other than helping kids that most want to ignore. If someone is willing to do it with the results that get these
kids to college I am going to support them. Because for me it is about these children and everyone else can cry me a river. You are arguing about what could happen like the bogey man.

I have been clear that this is about ending the chain of poverty, and doing nothing is not the answer. Answers such as more money, educate the parents are strawmen. Take the children and save them
now. THis will break the chain of poverty and I have no idea why teachers would be against helping these specific children. Become part of the solution and you will have more say down the road.

Please be specific to urban poor kids as part of the SEED program when responding. I am not advocating for 5000 charters.

[dkf]

67. Wonderful post.

It gives me hope that some things are going right out there.

Dealing with most of these education threads is depressing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

185. Oh yes. Because taking kids away from their families and communities is such a good idea

[JackDragna]

145. You know what most public schools would love?

Millions of corporate dollars that charter schools get. Safe, well-maintained environments, like the SEED program has. I imagine many at-risk kids would do well if you sent them to a boarding school.

[Gabi Hayes]

197. most public schools would love the THIRTY FIVE THOUSAND BUCKS per students

the SEED school gets

and did you see the attrition rate?

only 80 percent, or something close to that

see the thread here on what a joke that school is, and how totally unworkable it would be in the real world

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9369961

[laughingliberal]

217. I'm sure there are fine examples of Charters doing good work & having great success

But the answer to our problems with education here is to fix the public school system we have. It worked just fine before we embarked on Reagan's plans to 'starve the beast.'

Any system is going to fail after 30 years of underfunding.

[msanthrope]

43. This is a great post, because I think you have pointed out two very important things--

"Hurt feelings" as a motivation, and not doing reform the way unions want it done means you must be a corporatist...

They are recurrent themes on the 'education' threads.

[laughingliberal]

44. ...

Alan Grayson (92 posts) Tue Oct-19-10 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #10

69. Teachers

The right wing has vilified public schools and teachers for a generation. My opponent homeschooled his six children, and then sponsored legislation to increase class sizes in elementary schools to 60. 60!! They won't stop until they have destroyed public education throughout America. So we have to stop them.

[slackmaster]

37. The more uneducated clods there are in the job market, the easier it is for educated people

...to find decent work.

[county worker]

38. Why do you suppose people here aren't concerned about dropouts?

Because someone doesn't see the world as you do they don't care? You need some more education I think. Did you drop out or something?

This OP is what I call a DU bullying tactic and should get no respect!

[dkf]

210. How many posts have you seen address the drop out rate?

How many posts have you seen about the plight of teachers?

[stray cat]

41. because most of us can afford to live where there are good schools

and students are not members of unions

[Nite Owl]

42. What is he doing that is going to make anything

better? His approach is totally wrong. He is blaming teachers and it doesn't help students who need help one bit. Are you a teacher? Do you have a degree in education? Testing is not an answer to anything. Teachers get students that need help from the get go, students who are already at a disadvantage and testing them more is no answer. He is not doing anything about the roots of the problem like families that cannot afford to send their kids to school, these kids are working to help out with the rent, they have no time to study or pass a standardized test, they often come from homes where English is not spoken. Instead of giving help to alleviate the problems the blame is being put on teachers to cure everything or it's their fault. Charter schools will not and do not address these problems. They do not have to meet the same standards and do not have to accept students who are challenged, they get to pick and choose and if they have a problem with a student they get to kick them back to the Public Schools and keep the funds. They are profit makers, not educators. Do some reading and learn something before you start defending an approach that doesn't work.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-09-29/education-crisis-why-testing-and-firing-teachers-doesnt-work/full

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/Bridging-Differences/2009/05/what_the_harlem_miracle_really.html

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/charter-schools/charter-schools-is-this-the-wa.html

[Ginto]

45. Truancy laws must be enforced more strictly. nt

[Hannah Bell]

49. U.S. High School Graduation Rate Hits All-time High

Dateline: July 5, 2004

An all-time high 85 percent of U.S. adults age 25 and over had completed at least high school in 2003, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Also in 2003, 27 percent of adults age 25 and over had a college degree, another record.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/highschool.htm

[Pisces]

54. Yes, but they have gone down in the urban, poverty stricken areas that need the most

help. THis is where the programs are needed to end poverty. We are not 25th in the world in math and science when you take out the lowest 20% which are the drop out kids in the areas that good
teachers don't want to teach.

Why are we fighting about helping these kids with a new model that is getting proven results. 100% graduating classes with 87% going on to college. This is with no academic requirements. Everyone
that gets in gets to stay regardless of their academic levels.

Tell me again how this is bad???? It is ending the poverty cycle for these children. We should be about these children. I am not advocating for all charters. I am advocating for these urban poor that
have no chance.

[Hannah Bell]

58. actually, they've gone up:

Recent reports that only two-thirds of all students and half of minorities end up with a high school
diploma have been cited so often that these alarming data have been accepted as gospel. But a new
Economic Policy Institute report finds this much-repeated refrain is seriously inaccurate, and that a
wealth of better data shows high school completion rates are much higher, with about 75% of black
and Hispanic students receiving diplomas nationally. Although substantial gaps remain between the
graduation rates of whites and either blacks or Hispanics, the report documents that graduation rates
have been growing and racial/ethnic gaps closing over the past four decades.

In Rethinking High School Graduation Rates and Trends, EPI president Lawrence Mishel and
economist Joydeep Roy provide a rigorous examination of all of the possible data sources. The gold
standard NELS data, which track individual students over time and verify diplomas against actual
transcripts, show overall national graduation rates of 82%, and rates for black and Hispanic students
of about 75%.

The authors show that other national surveys that either track individual students or survey
households, such as the decennial Census and the Current Population Survey used to track
unemployment, confirm these higher graduation rates. The decennial Census data for 2000, when
corrected for various measurement problems, show that whites graduate with a regular diploma at a
rate about 15 percentage points higher than blacks and about 13 points higher than Hispanics.
However, the black-white graduation gap has shrunk greatly since the 1960s and the Hispanic-white
gap has shrunk over the last 10 years (the only period for which the necessary data are available).

“The very low graduation rates that are being cited are out of sync with what the most reliable data
sources tell us,” said Mishel. “We hope this report will clear the fog, create a better understanding
of the true challenges we face and the progress we’ve made, and help lead the way to better targeted
solutions for continuing to close the remaining gaps. Understanding where we are and how far
we’ve come can help identify what has been working in American public education.”

http://epi.3cdn.net/769f53e44b235b9ef8_pqm6bhnlw.pdf

[Posteritatis]

119. That meshes with what I see on this side of the border too

Dropout rates are still too high at least IMO, but they're half what they were in 1990 in most of the provinces. It used to be more than a third in some provinces like Alberta or Nova Scotia, but it's in the 10-15% range in most places now. They're worse for males in general (by an appalling margin) and minorities (by a less appalling one), but both of those have been improving, too.

Test scores tend to be down in a lot of places, though I have no idea if that's because the tests are harder, or if they're more broken, or if some of the students who would have otherwise left are struggling with them, or any number of other things. My brain's returning a 404 on the issue, anyway.

Of course, the issue's still making sure the people who are still in school are being taught well..

[Recursion]

74. Actually no

Schools in aggregate, and "inner-city" schools as usually defined, have a higher graduation rate and a lower violence rate than they did 20 years ago. Way too much of the education debate in this country is stuck in the early 90s.

[Hannah Bell]

76. by design. because the ptb disallow any narrative about the successes of public schools.

like the fact that black achievement scores are above what white scores were in the 60s, & the gap is closing -- or was, until gwb got into the ed "reform" business.

[SoCalDem]

50. School is a buffet

No one can force a kid to learn. I think a big part of the drop out problem is the chaotic life led by so many students these days, and the social pressures they face.

A teacher can only do so much.

[haele]

55. Some of those "drop outs" are 18-year olds kids who have made it through 12 years

without enough passing credits to actually graduate unless they took another class or two in summer school or perhaps another full 6-class semester *after the end of their 12th grade school year* - and they don't, because all their peers have graduated.
They have gone through school with enough credits on the books to have passed through the system, but not enough to graduate - an "F" here, a "D" there, but they hold steady with that 2.0 or 2.5 grade point average, even though over the past four years, they've failed or almost failed at least one course each semester.
More times than not, these are the kids that are just as happy to take the GED test and get on with their lives once they're within 6 months of their 18th birthday, and leave school without "graduating" - technically drop-outs. These are kids that, if given the option to go to trade school at 16, would be doing much better than being coaxed through an academic regimen.
When statistics talk about a 30% drop-out rate, they're including a significant number of teens who are taking the GED at 17 and leaving school early to go on with their lives - like going to trade school or to a more flexible type of learning in community colleges or apprenticeship programs - and most of these are not the stereotypical view of drop-outs; the dead-end kids who are quitting to hang out in malls and join gangs...

Haele

[The Midway Rebel]

59. Thank you. +1

I was just getting ready to say something similar. You saved me a lot of typing on a busy day for me.

[dkf]

66. That is a fair assessment.

I have no problem with kids in this situation dropping out as you rightly point out you can't do much about it.

[MellowDem]

60. The problem begins at home...

so bad neighborhoods with terriffically funded schools and great teachers will still have a high rate of bad students that drop out. If you want to address education, you must address poverty first or at the same time.

That said, it is my understanding that DU is outraged over everything all tghe time, so you can't call DU out on that. :P

[Petrus Romanus]

61. Teachers aren't the ones to blame.

The biggest problems in education lie in the structure of our educational systems, both in terms of parental disinterest and of funding disparity. I don't see how bitching about teachers solves either issue.

[dkf]

68. Yet aren't charter schools meant to address inflexibility in teacher contracts?

Yes maybe it is not the teachers, but the structure imposed by the unions that is the problem. The need to create charter schools is, I contend, a response to some inability to change things as needed.

[Catshrink]

69. And you reveal the crux of your issue with teachers: the teacher unions

I figured that you'd eventually get there, you always do, you can't help yourself. You are one of those who believe that arbitrary firing of teachers should be permitted. You believe that an administrator should be able to fire a teacher over a personality conflict or complaint by an influential parent, eg "she didn't give my child an A." You are one of those who believe that it should be possible to dismiss a teacher because of her sexual orientation, the church he belongs to, or doesn't, the teacher's political views, or even for the kind of dog she has. You are one who believes that it should be possible to replace a teacher because a school board member's nephew needs a job or because that teacher refused to teach creationism in biology class. You see, the teachers' contract and union negotiations protect teachers from arbitrary firing.

[Recursion]

77. Different charters are formed for different reasons

Some is simply what you're saying: administrators don't like dealing with teachers' unions. Then again there are unionized charters, and even charters made and run by teachers' unions.

I'm pro-charter in general because it's a way to introduce changes on a small scale without massively reworking the entire public school system; anyone who thinks charters can pop up all over the country and educate most of our children is IMO missing the point. They can be catalysts.

It is true that there are some school systems where the unions are part of the problem (unions, like any other organization, can be corrupt or incompetent). But simply saying that the entire problem is teachers and that removing their job security is the entire solution is as silly as saying the entire problem is parents.

[yurbud]

90. why would smart teachers go to work for a private employer whose reason for existence

is to pay them less and not give them job security?

[Recursion]

95. Some like the curricular flexibility. Some like the possibility of merit pay.

Some don't like paying union dues. Some dislike the politics of the school system and want to avoid it. Some simply feel like the system isn't working well and want to try something new.

[yurbud]

101. why not give the ''curricular flexibility'' to public school teachers? If they don't like unions...

they haven't done their homework.

I taught community college in two adjoining districts, one with a faculty union and one without.

At the one with a union, I made over $20 an hour more, had some job security including getting roughly the same number of classes every semester after I racked up some seniority.

I did the math and I made up the union dues with the pay difference the first hour and a half I worked every month at the union school.

At the union school, the evaluation process involved faculty peers as well as department chairs and administrators, and I was involved in one when we decided to let someone go and one when they took the first step toward doing that.

I was also an officer of the union local, and when someone filed a grievance, we only did what we were contractually obligated to do if we felt the instructor was a bad apple, and told that person if they wanted to fight for their job beyond that, they were on their own.

Before I started teaching college, I taught at a private SAT prep school which of course had no union. It was a summer job, so as instructors left to go back to grad school or teaching high school, they would give notice, and then the employer would refuse to give them their final paycheck. I tried to figure out what to do and in the end, I quit right when I was handed a paycheck. He still owed me over a thousand bucks, so I filed a complaint with the state labor department but never got anything.

Unions have an important role to play, probably even more so when profiteers enter the picture since the easiest way to pad your bottom line is give the customer less for his money than he paid for (but make it look like you gave him enough). Teachers care about the quality of work they do. Someone trying to make a buck cares about their profit margin. period.

[Recursion]

107. Because so many school systems are stuck in an industrial model

And, yes, the unions are part of that.

had some job security including getting roughly the same number of classes every semester after I racked up some seniority.

And I'm glad you did. Some people, though, really dislike seniority-based systems. I see some problems with them too, though I have trouble thinking of a way to change them that doesn't bring its own bad consequences.

I was also an officer of the union local, and when someone filed a grievance, we only did what we were contractually obligated to do if we felt the instructor was a bad apple, and told that person if they wanted to fight for their job beyond that, they were on their own.

*shrug* everywhere is different. I went to a pretty bad public school in the deep south. The AFT local was just basically the "old boys' network" (or, rather, "old gals' network") and worked very hard to keep some people in the classroom who really had no business being there, like my science teacher who told me the Sun went around the earth. And they opposed, to take up your question, classroom teachers' writing of curricula. This doesn't mean "unions are bad", this means that just like any other system they can be misused and start to harm the people they're supposed to benefit. Though in fairness, in Mississippi and then in DC where I moved later, race was a 900-pound elephant in the room that poisoned almost anything the schools, unions, or politics touched.

[yurbud]

116. without seniority, admins could pick inexperienced people to save money

I've worked at six different community colleges, and have met TWO administrators who would even possibly resist putting money ahead of experience or ability.

The reformers act like admins are the conscience of the system, but especially in K-12, many are bad teachers who promoted themselves out of the classroom by taking a few night classes. District administrators are usually worse. When I worked as a K-12 sub, in one district, a lot of the schools looked about as nice as the bathroom at a greyhound bus depot, but the district office was as clean and well-decorated as any corporate office.

At one of my schools they have two ways to get to the top of the list: seniority and getting excellent evals from all three of your evaluators.

If peer evaluation was involved, I would not object to using evals instead of seniority to determine assignment rights.

[Recursion]

118. Like I said, I can't think of a replacement for it that doesn't have its own problems

But seniority as the basis for pay and assignments does have problems, and does turn some people off.

The reformers act like admins are the conscience of the system, but especially in K-12, many are bad teachers who promoted themselves out of the classroom by taking a few night classes.

See, here's what I don't get: I like charters because they're a way to take those "promoted up" people out of the picture entirely. Yet the same people who rail so loudly against them also violently oppose an alternative that gets teachers out from under their thumb. (Obviously I'm thinking of district-level admins; every school will still need administrators on-site, I guess.)

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

241. I know quite a few who have done just that,

They were sick of dealing with white trash, ghetto scum, the constant police presence that came with gangs and drugs and asshole parents who saw the school as a daycare and were apt to fly off the handle if the school so much as called home.

[WinkyDink]

153. Another Republican talking-point: Anti-union. Anti-collective bargaining.

[Panaconda]

62. Who is insisting that those kids are the problem?

Those kids are the victims and their dropping out is only a symptom.

Let's cast the blame squarely where it belongs. It is a structural issue, it an economic and political disease. Schooling itself is merely a symptom.

Casting blame on individuals is a convenient way to distract from a deeper analysis of the situation.

As far as, "...if teachers having better ideas there is nothing stopping them", this comment proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have absolutely no idea what is happening in the trenches of the national public school system.

[Hannah Bell]

63. 85% of the population are high school graduates, the highest percent on record.

[TheKentuckian]

65. I'm outraged that dropping out before 18 is permitted by law. Knowing you're stuck would encourage

some to make sure their time is productive. 16 gets some targeted on that and making a little money, along with some varieties of parents.

Some things are hard to get a handle on when you set up to fail because you want to flush the stat crushers and/or are stuck in a mentality that circumstantially peaked about 70 years ago.

Those days are statistically gone, no matter how bright a few stray examples are, and we have not adjusted.

Another example of our sinking under the weight of outmoded, corrupted, broken, and failed systems.

There are for practical purposes no farms to tend, apprenticeships to take on, or well paying factory jobs to jump on early and retire before you're broken down and wore out from.

[Recursion]

70. There's a ton of outrage from everyone, but zero consensus on what the problems are

Which is why we all just end up saying the same things at each other, over and over, because people are trying to solve different problems.

Also, the 30% figure is misleading; that's people who do not graduate with their cohort from a traditional high school. If you include people who get a GED one way or another it's significantly lower.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

71. Why? How many dropouts do we have on DU?

[Codeine]

245. *raises hand* At a bare minimum, one.

Never graduated. Bone idle and work-shy at that age.

[Hannah Bell]

73. i wonder why you're not outraged that your team of "reformers" is in bed with the far-right?

why, huh?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9363477

inquiring minds want to know.

how come you're not outraged about the planning that's already going on for school privatization?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9368401&mesg_id=9368401

where's your outrage, dammit!

85% of the country = high school grads, & the HS graduation rate has been increasing steadily since the 60s, but the "reformers" want to pretend black is white & white is black & their interest in schools = disinterested philanthropy.

[mkultra]

75. outrage fatigue?

[seabeyond]

78. unless parents participate in kids education, you will continue to have the 30% drop out rate

it isnt the teachers. it is the parents and the kids....

gotta address the problem to come up with a solution. livable wage will help. livable wage with one working parent is better.

[ieoeja]

79. Arne's reforms should lead to increased dropout rates.

When I was growing up, the teachers concentrated on teaching us. People called "principals" kept an eye on the teachers to see who was or was not doing their job.

We also had a lot of students who came from poorly educated households. A few succeeded. Most failed. The teachers tried the same with all, but some were not motivated, or even scornful of education.

In today's environment, those students would threaten the teacher's livelihood. One solution: encourage them to dropout. Then they don't count against your test averages.

Since we have now made those test averages more important than the kid, the kids have to go. The most successful schools will be those that find the stupid kids early and throw them out on the street.

[End Of The Road]

80. Until we start to respect education in this country...

until parents are outraged when their child wants to drop out...

until all students feel it is "cool" to have a high school diploma...

until there are jobs for high school graduates who won't be going to college...

then we will continue to have a high dropout rate.

[yurbud]

82. the poorest kids don't have parents who can sift through charter school propaganda

and choose the right lottery.

[yurbud]

86. charter schools at best help average or above students who just need to escape the chaos

and violence in public schools so they can focus on learning, but the chaos is caused not by the teachers, but too big classes and not enough being done to compensate for kids disintegrating families.

Those hardcore drop outs will drop sooner and harder when the public schools become uglier and more violent because the manageable kids were skimmed off by the charters.

[Dappleganger]

105. Quite true.

In the city near us it's the white and well-to-do families who believe they can (and do) get those charter lottery wins. And of course, they get the money and newest buildings, most innovative programs, etc. Why can't they just use those resources in the PS themselves???

[yurbud]

84. how will privatizing public education so that some of our tax dollars are skimmed off into profits

help those kids who drop out?

[yurbud]

87. who said we can't do much about it? When we found out nutrition affected learning...

we started giving kids breakfast as well as lunch.

We need the social services equivalent to make up for collapsing and overworked families.

[yurbud]

97. you know what's funny, usually it's DLCers telling progressives to shut up and cheerlead but

in this thread, I think I need to say that to the advocates of education ''reform'': this approach is NOT widely popular with Democrats and beating this horse so close to the election is likely remind progressives of what they DON'T like about the Obama admin and therefore LESS likely to vote.

So why don't you save this shit in a folder for a couple of weeks until after the election and then you can peddle this free market snake oil to your heart's content.

[Fire1]

98. Not true! I think we have plenty of suggestions but teachers are

never consulted. Only publishers and investors.

[Dappleganger]

100. I know around here, some kids drop out because the high schools are all

geared towards college prep only, and steering non-college bound students towards the tech high school is looked down on by most guidance counselors. Kids get discouraged they aren't making the cut and drop out. That's in addition to the drug/apathy issues.

[yurbud]

102. my high school was a magnet with two tracks: college prep and voc-ed

it seemed to work pretty well.

[Dappleganger]

103. That's the way it should be...

it gives kids more options than college or dropping out. I fault our school's guidance counselors for not showing our kids more options. In general they are all in the "college only" mindset and don't serve every child's needs as they should (and that's also the opinion of a dear friend of mine who's a seasoned guidance counselor in our local schools).

[yurbud]

104. my union journal did an article on this very topic recently

but you wouldn't know unions cared about stuff like this by listening to the reformers.

[Dappleganger]

106. Unions do care...

it's just that some people have tuned them out and don't want to listen because they've bought into the RW-memes.

[yurbud]

111. been bought

[Dappleganger]

113. +1

[Recursion]

109. We just need to convince employers to stop requiring college degrees...

... for jobs that really have no business requiring a college degree. Which is quite a few of them.

[Posteritatis]

148. Job requirements in general are impressively broken at times

I've seen "require a minimum of seven years' experience in (insert three-year-old piece of software here)" and similar things a lot.

[Recursion]

108. I like magnets

Though I've seen them criticized on this board for the same reasons charters are.

[Tatiana]

110. PUBLIC alternative schools, for one.

Make high school compulsory through 18 years of age.

Give students the option once they are 18 of completing the coursework to obtain a HS diploma or obtaining a GED.

Make the hours of the school flexible (evening classes) for students who are working full-time.

Offer a combination of instructional delivery methods (traditional classroom/online/television).

Provide child care on site for teen parents.

Provide nutritious meals.who complete their diploma/GED program. Do a career interest survey to find out what skills the students possess and match them with relevant jobs.

Conduct exit interviews for students and have a counselor plan the next phase of post-secondary education (whether vocational, union apprenticeship, community college or 4-year university).

These are some of the successful things that we do at our school. We have picked up many HS dropouts and graduated them. They have all gone on to successful post-secondary education (we keep track of them for 3 years).

However... programs like this require financial support. We should be supporting more PUBLIC academic alternative schools instead of charters.

[JackDragna]

132. Boy, are we trotting out the false dichotomies.

It's as if being in favor of "teacher's rights" somehow puts one at odds with the wishes of students. Here's a news flash for you, from a teacher: we've been railing for years for smaller class sizes, more paraprofessionals in schools, better facilities, better counseling for students, better lunches, a move away from rote memorization as the end-all-be-all of education and dozens of other pro-student initiatives that get shot down because, like everything else done for the poor in America, spending on education is "spending" while spending on police, the military, etc is "necessary for safety."

[apocalypsehow]

136. Education has become an industry: one hundred years ago, roughly about 15% of the population went on

to "high school," defined as the eleventh and twelfth grades. Far fewer than that went on to college. Somehow, society muddled through and survived. The simple fact is that there are a great many people who simply not educable beyond a certain intellectual threshold for all sorts of reasons, and there is simply nothing that can be done about it without a major reform of epic proportions in both our society in particular and human nature as a whole. Just take a look at the Red States or the tea-party, for one example. It would be nice to believe otherwise, just as it would be nice to believe that there really were pots of gold tethered to the ends of Rainbows. But it simply isn't so.

[cynatnite]

140. I wonder how many of those go on to get their GEDs. n/t

[DireStrike]

142. Outrage overload, I suspect.

[pinboy3niner]

157. I don't buy the OP's false premise

Who says members here don't care? Is it a surprise that we don't see a lot of outraged posts on the subject in the final weeks of a tough political campaign season? And why the gratuitous attack on teachers and the ruling out of the role of the wealthy in creating the income disparities and policies that drive more Americans into poverty?

I "appreciate" the OP's "concern," but the whole, unsupported premise doesn't hold water and the motives for the assertions made are questionable.

[DireStrike]

160. Yeah I thought it was a sincere post at first

I don't usually follow these threads so I don't know the patterns and personalities.

[proud2BlibKansan]

174. I'm glad you appreciate the concern

I don't.

[pinboy3niner]

180. Thanks. I edited to fix it to make my meaning clearer.

Good to see you here! :hi:

[lightningandsnow]

155. Poverty, bullying, undiagnosed disabilities and poor teaching are all reasons kids drop out.

Few drop out because they think it's fun.

I've had a lot of great teachers, but a few awful ones. Because I was socially awkward and visibly "different", I not only endured bullying from students, but public humiliation from teachers.

I hate how any mention of the fact that bad teachers exist gets yelled at as "teacher-bashing!"

On edit: I think all the testing isn't the solution, though. Often, it targets kids who are recent immigrants or disabled in some way, and then uses that to not only scapegoat them but the teacher or the school.

[tigereye]

156. teachers do this stuff all the time- they spend their own money to help

students, stay extra, have to take all these courses because of changes to education policy, and do extra work because they care. :shrug:


sign me: tired of teacher bashing...

[w8liftinglady]

162. my partner works until 7 many nights,supplies all his own supplies...

we made little spirit packs for the students-he and I-because there is nothing...NOTHING devoted to impoverished public schools to increase students' self-esteem...unless the teachers do it.Crappy playground,shitty clothes...all elevated up by teachers and volunteers.This in a Southeast Dallas County school district where they've "lost" funds in the higher echelon...the teachers continue to be screwed royally.

sorry-it pisses me off.

[pinboy3niner]

175. The dedication and self-sacrifice of teachers...

...makes underhanded attacks like this OP all the more outrageous.

Teachers like your partner--and that includes every teacher I know--get far too much abuse from all quarters. Our teachers on the front lines deserve support as much as our troops do.

:patriot:

[w8liftinglady]

176. you are so sweet...check your PM box..I have a question

[tigereye]

208. no, I agree with you... you are right to tell it!

:hi:

[w8liftinglady]

209. LOL..YOU don't...we are on the same page...the topic does...luvya!

[Dinger]

179. -1 (nt)

[MedicalAdmin]

182. Horse Pucky.

I don't know a single teacher who doesn't take every dropout personally and doesn't work hard to keep every kid in school. Of course teachers are outraged. Unlike you teachers get to see it up close and personal. Teachers get to deal with it every minute of every class and lots of evenings and weekends too.

What I am outraged about is your continued ignorance and demonization of teachers. Pick on the people with the power and leave the foot soldiers alone.

God you are an insufferable twit!

[pinboy3niner]

219. + 1000 for MedicalAdmin

"(I)nsufferable twit," LOL! That pretty much nails it.

You have a way with words. :toast:

[LWolf]

190. Obama isn't attempting to "fix all this," if you are referring to

his education "reforms." He, as a matter of fact, supports the same harmful kinds of "reforms" that led to the "push outs" that created the faux "Texas Miracle."

Kids aren't the problem. Our culture is the problem. A culture of blame, a culture of poverty, a culture of selfishness and greed, a culture that neither values nor supports social or economic justice, a culture of privatization and corporate profit.


The current "reforms" aren't going to raise graduation rates. They're going to increase them, by design. The American Plutocracy requires a large pool of cannon fodder and cheap labor, and that's what the current "reforms" provide.

Teacher rights? You're damned right I support and defend teacher rights. We are the ones on the damned front lines. We're the troops fighting for the student rights you refer to. The right for every student to have equal access to a high quality education provided by a system whose only function is to do just that; a system that does not exist to enrich private groups or push political or religious or corporate agendas.

[mzteris]

195. a representative sample of the difference, graduating

can make:

The Economic Benefits from Halving Washington, DC’s Dropout Rate
“ The best economic stimulus package is a high school diploma.”


$157 million in Increased Earnings

An additional $99 million in spending and $43 million in investing

Increased home sales of $275 million and auto sales of $11 million

750 new jobs and economic growth of $179 million

$22 million in increased tax revenue

After earning a high school diploma, 70 percent of these new graduates would likely continue on to pursue some type of postsecondary education.

http://www.all4ed.org/files/WashingtonDC_leb.pdf

http://www.all4ed.org/files/WashingtonDC_leb.pdf

[Gabi Hayes]

199. that's so pre-citizens united post global economy third world america

what jobs?

[Nevernose]

200. In my state, only parents can legally give permission for a student to drop out

So why don't you find a drop out or parent of a drop out and ask them? The teachers sure as hell didn't give anyone the idea to drop out of school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

202. Why is DU not outraged over the high dropout rate in charter schools?

[uppityperson]

204. "if teachers have better ideas there is nothing stopping them ? WAY wrong there"

Insisting "that these kids are the problem" is wrong, as is "if teachers have better ideas there is nothing stopping them". Ever hear of school boards, of administrators? Teachers I know have lots of ideas of how to educate but the system, the administration (from Administrator to School Boards) all hinder, ie STOP, them.

[TBF]

213. You have so many in poverty because you have Capitalism -

When you have such vast income inequality you have poverty. And we can most definitely do something about that - but it's going to involve letting go of the conservative ideas in your post and protesting the inequalities of capitalism.

Recent stat: In 2009, the top 20% of American earners -- those making more than $100,000 annually - received 50.3% of all income generated in the country

much more here: http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/%22great-recession%22-pushes-gap-between-rich-and-poor-to-record-levels-535469.html?tickers=^DJI,^GSPC,SPY,UUP,UDN,TBT,TLT

[JDPriestly]

216. I am very concerned about the drop-out rate.

But charter schools are not the answer. Charter schools will attract the children of parents who already make sure their children attend school every day and do their homework.

For a few years, charter schools will pick up the children on the fringe -- the troubled kids.

But when the charter schools become overwhelmed by the problems these children bring with them -- the abuse and neglect in the home, peer pressure from other children who do not attend school or study, the hopelessness in communities that cannot offer children the hope of a job if they do finish high school -- all these problems, and when the test scores of these children bring down the scores of the charter schools, the charters will be either no improvement over our current public schools or havens for motivated kids from motivated families. And the motivated kids do well in our public schools, just as well as they will do in the charters.

But, the charters will take money from the public schools, take money from the schools that are trying to deal with the troubled kids. Charter schools are a gimmick and most kids won't be any better off with them than they are now.

Charters are a distraction from making the real reforms -- fewer administrators, smaller classes, more challenge for teachers in the classroom to teach from their hearts the material they think is right for the kids -- the way it used to be back in the 1950s and 1960s. Teachers know what kids need. Encourage teachers to work as teams, and you will get the best results.

[Name removed]

223. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

239. Why do you build straw men and attack them?

Disapproving the president's approach to education has nothing to do with how one feels about the problem of drop outs.

There is no logic to your supposition, which is based upon a bogus premise.

[pinboy3niner]

240. And it seems to be a recurrent theme

No logic, just bogus premises and "concern." RW propaganda couched as questions, and concern about what "we" are dealing with.

I may be a bit rusty. There's a term, a "concern (blank)," but the second word escapes me at the moment.

Is it just me?

[fascisthunter]

242. yup... it's pretty obvious

[DailyGrind51]

244. If "poverty is directly correlated to education levels", why are so many degreed workers unemployed?

Far too many tech workers have had their jobs "out-sourced", far too many newly certified educators, some with masters degrees, can't find teaching positions, older workers with multiple degrees either can't get hired or are shamefully "under-employed" and barely getting by.

Society will not sell kids on the value of education, until society begins to value the educated!