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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:26 PM
Original message
White House's Jarrett: Dead Gay Bully Victim Made 'Lifestyle Choice'
The last time I heard anyone use the obnoxious phrase "lifestyle choice" to describe a gay person's sexual orientation was during the Bill Clinton presidency when the gays were accused of wanting "special rights."

Today the Washington Post's gay kapo Jonathan Capehart shares a video interview he conducted on Monday with senior White House adviser Valerie Jarrett. She clearly states a belief that Minnesota gay teen Justin Aarberg, who committed suicide in July after being bullied, made a "lifestyle choice."

What an outrage to claim that the 15-year-old Aarberg made a choice to be gay, and that sexual orientation is a lifestyle. Did she get her talking points from Tony Perkins and the Family Research Council? It's doubly offensive that Capehart makes no effort to point out how dangerous Jarrett's thinking is...

http://mpetrelis.blogspot.com/2010/10/whs-jarrett-dead-gay-bully-victim-made.html

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wait...what? Someone in the White House said this?!
A senior adviser?!

:banghead:
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
393. just one of the senior-est advisors - the ones who make decisions with him

no biggie, she just arrived from a trip to 1950 in a DeLorean - she needs about 60 years of time, give her space
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
417. Right there with you
I had seen the subject line about 'lifestyle choice' in some posts but thought it was just yelling at the few remaining (expletive deleted) on DU who still seem to think those words are ok. I only just now realized it came from an adviser in the WH. :wow:

Arg. :banghead: is right.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
443. YEAH>>>> and she was invited to speak (w/prepared speech of course) at HRC event!
oh boy... I want her speaking on my behalf! You people with your LIFESTYLE CHOICE made a decision, and we'll stand by that choice of yours!!


Seriously... go F(CK off... How right-wingy of her. I'm livid, and an apology is ridiculous, too late, we know how you feel and you're a TOP adviser!
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Time to demand her resignation, IMHO. That sort of homophobic bigotry
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 04:29 PM by kestrel91316
stated so openly has NO place in OUR White House.
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fizzgig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. i agree 100%
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. When we see whether she resigns, we'll better understand the WH's position
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 04:44 PM by MannyGoldstein
Although I think that their actions already make it pretty clear that they do believe it's a choice, since they're outspoken that certain rights should be denied to homosexuals.
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pepperbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #26
271. +1
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #26
297. If they believe this, just
what kind of Democrats are they, anyway?

Hey, if you think homosexuality is a choice, you just might be a Republican.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. People need to email or call the White House.
I know everyone is tired of doing that, but we have to keep it up regardless.

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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #36
255. And just to make it a little easier,
Here's the website. Click and write, folks. This woman needs to make a quick lifestyle choice - to spend more time with her family:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact
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Amaril Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #255
407. Done! Thanks for the link n/t
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Janice325 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #255
449. Thanks for the link.
I sent my comments.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #36
301. Done!
Remember: If you think homosexuality is a choice you just might be a Republican.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #36
319. Done
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #36
426. Why waste my time?
The WH and indeed America doesn't care about what I think. Science means nothing (unless it's profitable) and even though neanderthals who think evolution is a myth, climate change is an international conspiracy, and homosexuality is a life choice are NOT QUALIFIED for public office, it's obvious they have sway and thinking doesn't matter. It's all gut reactions and superstition. That's what they think will get us ahead.
They don't care what I think and I have no influence.

Denmark looks better and better.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #426
463. Because it's the right thing to do
It isn't about the outcome but rather the commitment to the action no matter what. If I stop, the corporations win. If I don't stop, the corporations will probably win anyway but I have integrity.
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bluethruandthru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
317. +1000 n/t
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. was this just a slip up?
or is there evidence of a pattern on Jarret's part?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. The pattern is a constant tone-deafness on the part of this White House
I have often wondered who is advising Obama. Jarret is a senior adviser. 2 + 2 = :silly:
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. perhaps...but
sometimes people just say stupid shit. Still an apology is an order and I'll be disappointed if it isn't offered promptly.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
42. Valerie Jarrett is probably Obama's closest advisor
and pre-dates Washington.

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #42
303. Why would he have an advisor
so completely out of touch? Very curious.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #42
351. She was born before 1732?
:hide:
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Smashcut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
60. How is this a "slip of the tongue"
And not a particular choice of words that evidences how people in this White House think of GLBTs?
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #60
105. I don't have an answer
because I don't read minds.

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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
129. NO!
Ms Jarett has lost all credibility with this bitching, homophobic, bigoted, horrendous, insensitive, who-the-hell-does-she-think-she-is remark. You can't one day claim "it gets better" and disprove it the next day. Especially so when you nicked that claim from the people who actually do care. You know, the fierce advocates who make an effort as the president utters a few more vacuous words?

Ms Jarett must go. Confound her special advice to the president: if this is the advice the president gets, he would benefit from getting it out of his system sooner rather than later. It is no surprise that the White House spends ZERO political credit on the one minority everyone can still be openly bigoted about: no progress on DADT, no repeal of DOMA, no ENDA, nothing. No surprise at all, seeing who did the advising.

"Lifestyle"? "Choice"? Is that discriminating freak kidding me? How can she possibly think this is a Democratic message, a human message, Christian message, or anything that is good and honest? Jarett must go. If Ms Sherrod is thrown under the bus for no good reason at all, I would like to see some metaphorical tire profiles all over Ms Jarett - for unacceptable levels of hate speech.

Mr President, elections are two weeks away. Dismiss her. NOW.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
161. I'm not buying the "slip of the tongue" thing either
I think it shows how some in the Administration really believe.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #161
185. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
namahage Donating Member (678 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #185
251. I didn't think that someone on DU would try to make this about African Americans.
What, you think there aren't any LGBT African Americans?

"Many blacks"? Is that like "some people say"?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #185
254. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #185
288. Black people were not the only ones voting on Prop 8.
I sure there are many bigoted black people, but there are bigoted people of other races as well. This seems like race baiting to me.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #161
306. There is zero chance
it was a slip of the tongue.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
361. Tone-deafness.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. "poor choice of words"
That's where this will go. Her entire message is the need to end bullying and promote equality, etc., etc., but "lifestyle choice" is not the way I'd phrase it. I don't know why those words would be in her mind. Does she believe that or was it an accidental use of RW terminology?
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. That "choice of words" --
is very revealing. Anyone really in touch with the LGBT community would never ever say that. LGBT have been fighting for YEARS to end the RW Xtian meme that their orientation is a "choice" they have control over. To have someone of her statue repeat that inanity is frankly disgusting and an embarrassment for her.
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Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #28
86. Being christian is a choice
no special rights for the fundies.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #86
458. Thank you! Being Christian is a CHOICE. I am Christian, proudly only in Christ, but it's a CHOICE,
being Gay is what your physical outcome has brought forth in your life. I felt attractions for men in the "crush" sort of way ever since I was a little 5 yr old and thought how much I adored Col. Steve Austin (6 Million Dollar Man).

I am deeply OFFENDED by her feelings on this. These are their thoughts in the White House, if they weren't, and they've had PLENTY of discussions on Gays in 2 years, Obama would have corrected her for saying Lifestyle Choice if he didn't agree. If he doesn't say he doesn't agree with her, I will certainly believe that he does. Sorry, her actions speak volumes as does the past 2 years of questionable "fierce advocacy" for GLBT issues.

God bless us all, everyone...
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
58. "poor choice of words" is putting it very mildly.
I know my hackles get raised when some fundamentalist bigot uses them. I never thought anyone from the White House would use the same language.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
54. Slip ups reveal what the person thinks.\nt
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #54
455. that's freudian bullshit
Slips ups are just as frequently motor errors as they are anything else. This ridiculous idea that verbal slips have any deep psychological significance needs to be buried along with Freud.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:46 PM
Original message
Not from the crowd that gave us Donnie McClurkin and Rick Warren
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
132. If you call letting the cat out of the bag a "slip up", then yes
it was a slip up.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
141. How a slip up?
I don't think you'd say that unless you thought it. And if that's the way you think of homosexuality, then there's a problem.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
163. ummm-hummmmmm
Part of the ongoing language of avoiding civil rights.....
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
202. If it was a slip, it was a Freudian one.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
228. "slip up" does not mean what you think it does...
or what you want it to mean.

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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
311. A "slip up"? lol ... that would be funny if she weren't
talking about the rights of 10% of the country...

Solidarity.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. So she drew the straw this week to shit all over our dead?
I tongue-in-cheek replied a little while ago that the administration should send someone else out to pee on our dead children just for emphasis. I didn't think they'd actually do it.

She should resign. Seriously. If this were a racial slur, would she continue on? Of course not.

Lifestyle choice is about as offensive and anti-gay as it gets. To use it in reference to an LGBT teen suicide is a disgrace.

Valerie, resign.

Obama, ask her to.

But, of course, they won't.

We know where we're at on this administration's give a fuck list.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. That is so vile.
How could anyone say that.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. Oh no she didn't.
:wow:
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
64. I know! I can't believe it either.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
10. so, having made the "choice," it's totally logical to kill him. that's how some fundies think.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
352. That in and of itself defies logic.
If it were really a "choice," then there's a chance at "rehabilitation."

By killing someone for their homosexuality, the killer is actually admitting his victim cannot change.
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bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
11. 88-dimensional chess, or flat-out tone deafness? You decide!
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. I just can't imagine how anyone --
with any real connctions to or understanding of the LGBT community could possibly not know that phrase is RW Xtian bullshit spew??? :crazy:
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. I've decided. It's not chess and it's not tone deafness
It's bigotry and hatred.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. Theres a stealth right wing theme running throughout the WH
Everything from this absurd remark to caving into special interests in HCR and bailouts, theres a pattern of right leaning ideals thats becoming impossible to ignore.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
107. I am not sure it's even stealth, for me it 's very "in your face".
:hi:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
41. Yes it is. I never could have imagined it would be this bad.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:11 PM by Catherina
I should have known the minute he thrust Donnie McClurkin in our faces. What a fool I was to fall for the "it's a gospel tour" excuse. :cry:
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
234. ... "extreme checkers" maybe?
I stopped giving the benefit of the doubt regarding "tone deafness" to this administration a while back. A couple of slip ups at controlling the message, I can understand. But when it is an almost weekly thing, I am sorry to say but a clear pattern emerges.

I think they have some kind of betting pool in this white house to see which one of their officials can say the most stupid shit and get away with it. I believe she went for the callous angle to win the bet. Seriously, what a monumentally assholish thing to say regarding such this tragedy. If you have nothing nice to say, just STFU.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
13. Time for her to go
I think it is time for the White House
to come out with a definite statement
stating that homosexuality is not a lifestyle
choice.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
14. And why does Jarrett have to say over and over that the parents are "good people"?
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 04:44 PM by EFerrari
Does she mean, he chose to be gay over the family's good parenting?

I think I've seen and heard enough from these people forever.

:puke:
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
300. I'm glad you caught that
Yes, Ms Jarrett, even good people have those gay "mistake" children, so we can't blame them for the child's "lifestyle choice". :eyes:

She needs to resign -- NOW.

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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #14
302. This is truly disgusting....
I don't know if the admin is tone deaf or being willfully ignorant. Sadly, I'm starting to think it's the latter.

And it's not just offensive, it's harmful.

I join you in :puke:

:(

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muffin1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #14
320. Yep. Those poor parents did their best,
but he 'chose' that 'lifestyle' anyway. Dear god. :mad:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
321. This bigotry depends upon convincing parents to abandon and disown their
own children -- so you have to use a PRETEND kindness to them in order to

get them to do such stupid things, evidently!!??

Meanwhile, Valerie has made a "lifestyle choice" .... to be ignorant!!

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
340. + 1. Sent my outrage to the WH.
unf-ingbelievable!
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Smashcut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
379. Yup. That's a dog whistle in itself
Combined with her use of "lifestyle choice" it's like she's saying "None of this situation was the parents' fault..."
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MNBrewer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #379
424. Here's another one...
"God's in the mix"
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
428. Holy crap - this just keeps getting worse
I could almost understand if she was saying that about the bullies but wtf does she mean saying that about the victim's parents? :puke:
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
15. Fire. Her. nt
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
56. They won't.
She's VERY close to the Obamas. Valerie Jarrett is a very trusted adviser to the President. Apparently, she was considered for Chief of Staff after Emmanuel left.

She SHOULD be fired for that insulting crap. But they won't.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
90. I know. Sigh. nt
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. OFFS.
Much is becoming clear this week. She needs to go.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
18. Looking forward to watching this later
since I don't have speakers at work..

the mind boggles...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. She said the parents were good people and embraced
the lifestyle choice.

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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
19. Kids just don't choose 'lifestyles'
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 04:46 PM by Mimosa
Kids are kids. Each grapples with issues of identity, sexuality and individuality. They all want to be liked and 'fit in'. Nothing's wrong with that!

I listened to the interview with Ms. Jarret. Her heart may be in the right place but she might be the wrong person to be a liasion on the issue?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
21. I don't think Capehart is eager to reveal his sexual orientation.
I've never seen him get even close to it on Morning Joe...which is the only place on TV that I see him...
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muffin1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. Before the 2008 election
Jonathan Capehart was on MSNBC and mentioned that his partner lived in New York and said that HE was going to vote for Obama. He said it deliberately and matter-of-factly. Good for him - I've always liked Capehart.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. What does that have to do with what Valerie said?
Are we now just attacking all messengers? I hope not.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #34
388. No, I was referring to the last line of the OP or at least my interpretation of what
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 11:28 AM by CTyankee
doubly offensive" meant...
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HipChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
50. He's mentioned it there..
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:20 PM by HipChick
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
24. What was the "lifestyle choice" they were discussing
being gay or committing suicide? In either case, it's a really, really bad description.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
52. And, given the brutish nature of his short sojourn on this planet
Who wouldn't choose such an attractive lifestyle? Bullied, smacked around, denigrated, and finally driven to suicide? Sign me up! And as an added bonus, have high government officials dance a little pas de deux over your corpse.

You know, I expect this from the Republicans. They're evil and ignorant. From our putative side, and the fierce advocates? Makes me wanna holler.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #52
149. This administration has been "fierce advocates" when they want our money and our votes.
It's just one song, a two-minute prayer and a lifestyle choice.

Oh, this administration gets it alright. At least with the rethuglicans, we knew where we stood.
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Riverman Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #149
453. No More! Not Now, Not ever! no money, no organizing, no votes from me for Obama, republicans and
democrats who express hate speech against LBGT people like me!
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #52
307. "Makes me wanna holler."
Makes me wanna hurl. :puke:
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
142. Being bullied, maybe
Some people like that, you know.

:sarcasm:
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #142
165. I hadn't even thought of that possibility. n/t
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #24
294. I don't know enough about the case to say but --
maybe she meant a decision to be openly gay rather than hidden? I don't know but really do people here ever give someone the benefit of the doubt or consider how many times each of us speaks and is misunderstood because of the words we choose? Seriously reading this thread is like a parody of all things liberals are tagged with being - People pick out one phrase and ignore the heart of the message which is one of sadness over what's been happening among gay teens. I see attacks on blacks for being anti gay...I see an attack on a woman as being anti gay with no room for anything but condemnation and hatred...Doesn't the world have enough of that already? Geeeze...this sounds like a jury at the Salem witch trials...
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #294
308. So if someone is gay
they had better remain in the closet or risk certain abuse or even death? Kind of like being a Jew in late 1930s Germany.
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #308
389. That's not what she said.
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muffin1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #294
324. This is just another insult on top of a whole string of insults.
They have ignored the plight of GLBTQers since taking office. Rick Warren having center stage at the inauguration, Donnie McClurkin used as an adviser, DADT still going strong, still defending DOMA. Hell, the good President doesn't even believe in marriage equality. This is just the straw that broke the camel's back. LIFESTYLE CHOICE? In 2010? Fuck them. :puke:
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onpatrol98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #294
413. That's the way I took the written comments...I guess I'd have to hear it
I mean, you can be heterosexual and choose to be abstinent. Is it who I am or what I do? You can be gay, but live as a heterosexual most of your life...then decide to live your life true to yourself. You've made an active choice to live differently...a lifestyle choice. If you die and never have sex, what do we call you? Heterosexual by default?

Maybe what we need is more of a discussion than anything else. Maybe this a teachable moment. Maybe it's more valuable if Ms. Jarrett and the rest of America (and me included) get a lesson on what a phrase like "lifestyle choice". If she leaves quickly, with a pat on the back from the President and the discussion ends. What has the gain really been? Maybe its time to educate the population. If every..."poor choice of words" gets a smack down but no discussion, don't we just delay a change in attitude. People simply become more careful about what they say, but the public discourse doesn't improve. And, worse still, hostility simmers from all direction.

That's about the longest rope I can provide for Valerie until she clears it up. And, not even that has much length. I'm sure IF the White House decides she needs to say more, it'll be...the "poor choice of words" meme.

But, I don't see her leaving until SHE gets good and ready. So, she may hit the door. But, really. These days, they leave and still get paid as advisers and get grand little perks. She's buddies with the President. That working relationship isn't going to end JUST because she hits the door. I gather her influence is large. Perhaps, larger than Axelrod's. But, maybe there will be some sense of justice if she's no longer one of the faces of the White House.

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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #413
457. Thank you for a reasonable response...
I personally don't think she should leave unless it's her decision or the President's. Her sentiment was correct, kind and thoughtful. She maybe used the wrong phrase but honestly if it hadn't been pointed out so vehemently here, I would've taken her comments as it seemed she meant them which is in a compassionate way. How about instead of instant condemnation, anger and characterization - we calmly point out that those words are potentially hurtful? Why does everything have to bring out so much venom?
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ugh, with friends like these...
:puke:

:argh:

x(

Rec'd.
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
27. I am so sick of this shit.
Jarrett needs to go.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
29. What an asshole.
Geez, even down here in the Bible Belt, in my hometown, more and more people realize it is a not a "lifestyle choice."

:wtf: is her problem?
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
277. My 80-yo grandma, bless her
was watching the news one night and she said "You know, I don't think those people choose to be like that."

She's never been on the vanguard of progressive thought, but for someone of her generation to say that gave me hope.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
30. Words fail me. nt
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
240. and these are the people in the WH posing as liberals!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #240
322. Agree .... and guess Obama just doesn't notice the stink .... ????
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
31. I'd ask her to describe in detail the moment when she chose to be heterosexual
:nuke:
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. +1000 nt
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mcollins Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
33. WTF! nt
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muffin1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
37. Oh, fer fuck's sake
I wish I was surprised. :puke:
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
38. FUCK YOU!!!!!
:grr:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
40. That's it. I'm done with them. Done! RIP sweet Justin
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:04 PM by Catherina


Rest in peace sweet prince.


By the way, they mispelled his name. It's Aaberg, only one r.
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. What a beautiful child he is,
he should have had a long life filled with love and laughter.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Autumn, I am sitting here in tears looking at that picture,
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:15 PM by Catherina
How many more must die? I am so angry right now because I agree with you. He deserved a nice, long life. Instead he got HATE. When do these crucifixions end? This is intolerable.

All these sweet, kind, gifted people are tossed on an altar of hate. And for what?
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #45
61. I've been crying since you posted his picture
I don't know what is wrong or how many more have to die, but my heart is breaking. We don't excuse hatred and bigotry. Enough is enough. We are supposed to care about other people, we protect our children,and the vulnerable, we don't say they made a lifestyle choice,our leaders are supposed to speak up in their honor and defense and say that this will not be tolerated, WTF it's not supposed to be this way.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #61
76. Me too. I'm so angry and hurt. Justin is now in my sigline. No more!
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:52 PM by Catherina
:hug:
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TriMera Donating Member (885 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. That's a beautiful sigline, Catherina. n/t
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #76
130. Thank you.
:hug: :hug:
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. What a cutie.
He should still be here. What a loss.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
62. What a beautiful child. Just heart-wrenching...
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
92. .
:cry: He looks like my best friends in HS. I wish I could hug him now and tell him that it will get better. :cry:
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
44. I don't understand this administration, I just don't
I'm going to offer the benefit of the doubt.

I seriously doubt the president is homophobic and I doubt he would employ anyone who was homophobic.

Yet, his policy pursuits and defense of DADT and DOMA are inexplicable. I don't know if he is pandering to the center or to the right or both believing the professional left will come home if/when Palin or whoever takes the GOP nomination but this is...

...I don't know what this is.

Didn't people use to make fun of Bush for his rhetorical foul-ups? Didn't people compliment Obama and his campaign for "message discipline"?

"Lifestyle choice"?

Smoking and eating deep-fried bacon is a lifestyle choice. Justin Aarberg, like every other living soul, was a beautiful human being who deserved a long and happy life but was tormented by the cruel and pitiless.

He deserved better, we owe it to his memory and Ms. Jarrett's bone-headed comments cast this in absolutely the wrong light.

Tell me where I'm wrong.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. They don't have any gay friends at the White House
I asked once who Obama's gay friends were. He never seemed to have any. No close LGBT individuals in sight.

What strikes me here is how comfortable Jarrett is using the phrase. She says it almost warmly (while constantly assuring us that the parents were practically saints when their child threw this at them, which is frankly a very weird and anachronistic attitude in this day and age).

It never occurs to her that this is very much a WRONG THING TO SAY. If she ever said it anywhere near an LGBT individual, they would have told her (about twenty years ago) that this was very much a WRONG THING TO SAY.

And yet, there it is. And she's a senior adviser and close friend of the President's. How did this manage to survive in her thought processes and vocabulary this far along?

And she was the administration's chosen ambassador to the gay community.

People always wonder if Barack Obama is a homophobe. It's not an easy answer. I don't believe he is in the right-wing, fire-breathing evangelist sense.

But he clearly is not familiar or comfortable with gay people. He does not know our lives, our struggles, our war, or us. His senior adviser certainly doesn't. I would be interested to hear what their private conversations about LGBT issues are like.

I trust "lifestyle choice" isn't getting a first airing from Jarrett here. I trust that it's part of the clueless, softly bigoted culture at the White House. Everything this administration has done from Day One speaks to it.

This is just the cherry on top.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. It isn't weird and anachronistic -- she's trying to give the parents a pass
for their kid being gay.

So generous on her part.

And this is why I never listen to his speeches or his spokes people any more. The little handkerchief square where I could stand and support them has been unraveled to nothing.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. That's precisely it. Precisely.
And the most fucked up part about it, is this is her best effort. This is her putting on the administration's pro-gay "charm." This is supposed to be the warmest possible thoughts they have about us.

And it's . . . that.

We've all spent nearly two years wondering just what on earth is going on in the Oval Office, what on earth they're thinking as they slap the LGBT community in the face again and again and again.

Well, Valerie just gave us our answer, and it's ugly.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. FWIW I'm sorry.
People deserve better. If all of us are not equal then we are all diminished.

It is a slap and when you complain about the slap you're greeted with a punch for being professionally left.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Sincere thanks
And look at the bright side. When we've won this war - and we will - the next minor skirmish will be slapping down all these same people who will be running around claiming they were there in solidarity with us, fighting for equality.

No, they weren't.

And I for one won't ever let those who defended this stuff forget just how much they weren't on the right side of history when it counted.

It's some small (petty) consolation.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #65
73. It's bigotry. There is no excuse for this.
If the president holds those views about GLBT people, that's his personal right. It isn't his right, however, to forward those views in an official capacity or on the public payroll.

There is no dispensation for promulgating bigotry because you're the president's adviser.

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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. I really want to chalk it up to stupid, stupid, stupid wording on Jarrett's part
I really do.

I'm a benefit-of-the-doubt kind of girl.

Maybe that makes me naive.

The real test will be how the admin. responds to the outrage.

Will the complaints over a slap be greeted with a punch?

Or silence?

What would constitute a proper apology/response?

Did I mention it was stupid?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. These people are not stupid or ignorant. n/t
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #82
310. You're correct. This statement is about
as "off" as when George Bush said, "It's a crusade."

In my judgment Valerie's words are THAT wrong. And it is no slip of the tongue.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #65
350. What a horrible truth - it was her *best* effort.
Our children are dying this is their idea of comfort. :cry:
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
67. Ambassador to the gay community calls it a lifestyle choice, huh?
I suppose his ambassador for peace between the Jews and Muslims is serving BLTs and wondering why everyone is looking at him like that.

Sorry for the snark but it seems analogous.

Beautiful pic of him up-thread. He should have been that happy all the time. No one had the right to take that beautiful smile away from him.
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PSzymeczek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #67
114. Or even worse,
bacon cheeseburgers.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #67
280. Or sending Christmas cards.
:eyes:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #51
116. rec'd n/t
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
98. Pandering to the religious? Who knows, but i don't like it.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 06:55 PM by krabigirl
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
137. Here is what is lacking:
You offered no arguments why Obama would not be a homophobe/ surrounded by homophobes, except an unsubstantiated doubt. Let's just put it this way: there is a decidedly homophobic streak in this administration. That bone-headed bigotry is at the very least way too close to the president.

GLBT people are treated with contempt by this administration, and Ms Jarett had made it too clear. She should go. The president deserves a better adviser - especially when he needs to reconnect to his base.

Good heavens, I consider myself a moderate conservative and I'm spewing all but outright hatred at that hatefull Jarett. Why would the president want to be advised on his relation with the GLBT community by someone to the right of me? Let him be sensible and dismiss that source of hatred.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
47. If they're going out of their way to piss us off, then Mission Accomplished.
My god, these people are clueless. "lifestyle choice" is right out of the talking points of the American Family Association. Or Focus on the Family.

This is really, really bad. An apology needs to happen now.

It sure will be interesting when they try to hit us up for campaign donations for 2012....
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. Their bigger mistake is in thinking that only GLBT voters have a stake in this.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:25 PM by EFerrari
Wrong, so wrong, very wrong. They should try calculating how many have family members or friends or how many voters have a sense of community or a conscience.

I used to think Valerie Jarrett would help Obama deal with DC. Was I ever wrong.

/oops

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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #53
75. You're absolutely correct
It isn't just the LGBT community.

If all of us are not equal then we all suffer.

I don't know who said it but I once heard the phrase: if you want to hold a man down then you have to lower yourself.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
48. Oh good grief.
:puke: Does she work for Tony Perkins?
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
49. WTF is this shit right here? "LIFESTYLE CHOICE"?
Why doesn't she just say, "What do you expect? The kid acted like a fag."
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #49
94. +1
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #49
151. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #151
159. I didn't call her hateful.
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rivertext Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #151
174. yes, this thread is an embarrassment - ANSWER me!
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 10:54 PM by rivertext
The advisor has met with the parents of children who have committed suicide and is expressing her interest in seeing that something is done to stop the kind of bullying in schools that led to this. She uses the words "lifestyle choice" and you folks here are demanding her resignation?!?!?

There is nothing in her sympathies, her attitude or her position on the issues that you disagree with, but she slips in a phrase that is not the like the N___ or C___ word or a slur word for gays that everyone knows is off-limits, just a phrase that the right wing uses and instead of constructive criticism that she avoid such language in the future you demand her resignation.

Folks, please stay with me for a few moments

She didn't say that people choose their sexual orientation -- that would be a WTF statement.

She said they choose their lifestyle -- apparently an unfortunate choice of words -- Nonetheless, it is UNDENIABLY true. Some people choose celibacy, some people choose to stay in the closet, some people choose to be openly and proudly gay. These are lifestyle choices. If the term "lifestyle choices" is offensive, then suggest another clear alternative -- because people do make choices about their lifestyles.

Or are we debating free will, here?

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #174
175. "She didn't say that people choose their sexual orientation"
By using the phrase "lifestyle choice", yes, that is exactly what she said.
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rivertext Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #175
199. I did not know that
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 10:52 PM by rivertext
First of all I've already expressed my willingness to be educated here. I understand that, for example, the word "negro" was once the accepted term and now it is in most circumstances, unacceptable. However, it could only become unacceptable when everyone knew what the preferred terms were -- black or African-American.

What are the correct words to use to talk about "lifestyle choices"? Before you can DEFINE "lifestyle choice" as meaning choosing your sexual orientation, rather than what the words mean to the educated person who does not know about this right wing rhetoric, you have to provide an alternative acceptable set of words to talk about the lifestyle choices that people actually do make.

How the hell do you know what Obama's advisor meant if you can't even tell me what words she should have used to communicate that the student was harassed for coming out of the closet? -- assuming for the sake of argument that was what she meant to say.

Does anyone here (that believes in free will) actually believe that people DON'T make "lifestyle choices"? Straight people make these choices and gays make these choices. Now, if gays find the phrase "lifestyle choices" offensive, I would like to be informed of what the correct words are to describe such a lifestyle choice so I don't offend them.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #199
203. It isn't a choice
I never choose to be straight. Don't call it a choice.
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rivertext Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #203
206. Just answer the question
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:23 PM by rivertext
Michelangelo didn't choose his same-sex sexual orientation. We agree on that.

Nonetheless, he did make a life-style choice. He chose celibacy, He chose sublimation. He chose to express his love of men on canvas, in stone, and on at least one ceiling, rather than in bed. Because the right wing has abused the term "lifestyle choice" you want me and Obama's advisor to use another set of words, WHAT ARE THOSE WORDS?

-- all my edits have been to fix my sentences
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #206
209. I'm just saying don't call it a choice
That is all.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #206
242. "WHAT ARE THOSE WORDS"?
Some suggestions for you:
1. Chose to be himself.
2. Discovered his own sexuality.
3. Found his own way of offering love to the world.
4. Came out.
5. Decided to be honest.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #199
282. was gay.
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 03:02 AM by Jamastiene
It is NOT a choice. There is not "lifestyle" involved either. Most gay kids come from your average straight families. There is not "lifestyle" that is different than anyone else in this world. Both words are wrong, but when you put them together, they are twice as wrong.

If you really want to learn, the first thing you need to learn is that it is not a choice and there is no lifestyle. Gay people do not choose to be gay and we are not some monolithic group of people who all coordinate how we are going to live. We do not all have the same "lifestyle." Some of us live in cities. Some of us live in the suburbs. Some of us live in rural areas. Some of us love being out in the woods, while others hate mosquitoes enough that they would never leave the city where they spray for biting insects. Some of us hate the suburbs so much that we would rather go to extremes and either spend our time in the cities or out in the deep wilderness, anything but the mundane boring 'burbs. Gay people in the suburbs may or may not like or dislike the cities and rural areas. It all depends on the person, no different that straight people.

If you want to talk about "lifestyle," you have to take into account that you are trying to lump us all into one category that does not even exist. We are not all the same. We do not have some "gay lifestyle." That is bogus. Start by recognizing that we are each individual people who live no different than anyone else. The only difference is the amount of bullshit we have to hear from people who have no clue but think they know everything.

If you really want to learn, quit repeating that obnoxious phrase "lifestyle choice" and listen to what we are telling you.

1. It is NOT a choice.
2. There is no such thing as some sort of gay "lifestyle."

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rivertext Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #282
411. different ways of living
--- We do not all have the same "lifestyle."

Yes. No one is implying otherwise. As you say, "Some of us live in cities. Some of us live in the suburbs. Some of us live in rural areas." People choose different "ways of living" -- they don't choose their sexuality. No one is arguing any of this.

I can't speak for Valerie Jarrett. However, the discussion that you seemed to have imagined never took place, here.

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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #199
422. How about just not saying anything at all?
In your case, that's probably the best choice.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #174
184. In the context of Donnie McCLurkin and RIck Warren
for starters, it makes total sense.

And the phrase is sexual orientation.

I can't even believe I have to convey that on a Democratic board.
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rivertext Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #184
233. I want to believe that we are better than Tea Party Crazies
I want to believe that this isn't just the flip side of the Free Republic -- that we have reason, logic and love on our side.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #233
291. The term "life style choice" has been used to justify mistreatment of many gay people.
When high ranking public officials use these terms, the terms gain credibility. If being gay is a lifestyle choice, then the argument for gay civil rights is weakened and bigotry against gay people is easier to justify in the minds of some.

Combine this slur with some of the previous events, such as some of President Obama's anti-gay guest speakers, the recent suicides, and a lifetime of maltreatment, and some people are bound to be pissed off. Venting about these frustrations is not only justified, it is perfectly logical.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #233
435. Where's the love shown in supporting assholes like Donnie McClurkin?
:argh:
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #184
312. Yep.
sad fucking state of affairs.
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704wipes Donating Member (966 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #184
462. Here she is


Looks like the 'choice' she has made...
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #174
331. so being out is a lifestyle choice
so would it be Ok for governments to discriminate against those who choose to be openly gay on the grounds it is a lifestyle choice? BTW some people really can't choose to be open or not. While Kurt on Glee is fictional, there are real life versions of him, who are out by simply breathing.
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
55. Using the phrase "lifestyle choice" to describe a gay person's orientation,
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:23 PM by BlueIris
or any person's orientation, is just wrong, IMO. Not just offensive, but factually inaccurate. The Human Genome Project has proven that sexuality is hardwired into our genes.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
57. Tone deaf.
Do these people even know any gay people? It's past time for her to go.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. Maybe they agree with her.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
66. She needs to be fired
This tells me all I need to know about this noxious woman.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
68. This level of ignorance is unconscionable anywhere. In a high level civil position it is deplorable.
What the hell is going on?
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
69. it was a clueless remark
I listened to her statement. She was talking about the parents being supportive. I think she meant to say that the parents were supportive of him but used the jargon of the religious right.

The problem, as always, is the religious right in this nation.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
71. Sadly I think that this is symptomatic of what this entire administration feels
After all, their first action was to have Warren do the invocation. They haven't pushed the civil rights of the LGBT community until the last minute, when they needed the votes this fall. Even then, they've done poorly, refusing to fight for the repeal of DADT. The administration hasn't pushed for DOMA repeal, rather instead using the DOJ to appeal rulings overturning both DOMA verdicts and now DADT verdicts. Not to mention that Obama himself has come out and stated he isn't in favor of gay marriage. All of this, and more, points towards an ugly conclusion, the LGBT community has a faux friend in the White House, and when push comes to shove, this administration will not be of help.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #71
77. And if you remember, the Warren choice was shoved off
on the GLBT community to protest. We didn't hear much about how he is also an anti-Semite or a misogynist or a racist. He is all of those things and a grifter.

In response to our protests, Obama said we were noisy, diverse and opinionated. As if that's a bad thing. That was the red flag, right there.

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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #71
79. I know I have said this before - but Ill say it again
I get the impression that Obama personally does not feel GLBT citizens have a constitutional right to anything. He believes is the right thing to do is not to discriminate - but legally discrimination is fine. For me thats the only way he could possible justify his statements and actions.
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BlueCheese Donating Member (897 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
78. Here is my transcript of what she said, for those without audio
Keep in mind that I don't have a lot of practice doing this.

So I think what we've seen over the last few months are some very tragic deaths of young people--our children--avoidable deaths. They were driven to commit suicide because they were being harassed in school and driven to do something that no child should ever be driven to do. In many cases the parents are doing a good job, the families are supportive. Before I spoke at the HRC dinner, I met backstage with Tammy Aarberg, her son Andrew. These are good people, they were aware their was gay, they embraced him, they loved him, they supported his lifestyle choice, and yet when he left the home and he went to school, he was tortured by his classmates. What the president asked me to do was to go and deliver his message to say this is an issue which is important, it needs to be addressed now, we've got to stop condoning this in school and acting as thought it's a rite of passage and something that we can't do anything about...
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
81. I've heard worse things, but she should know better. It's not a choice or a "lifestyle"
whatever that means.
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
84. Uhhh - Did anyone actually listen to the point of her message?
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VMI Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. It was hidden in her bigotry wasn't it?
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #87
298. no
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. Uhhhh - part of her point was the child made a lifestyle choice.
I know you can't understand the endless frustration about how this administration handles gay issues, but whatever.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #88
111. No, that wasn't her point at all.
The only point she was making is that he had supportive parents and we need to take action to stop bullying against gay teens. I understand that it was the wrong phrase for her to use, but the way you're spinning this is still dishonest.

Capeheart: One of the things you've put a spotlight on, and to veer sharply away from infrastructure, and that was on the rash of suicides of gay youth. You gave a speech to the Human Rights Campaign annual dinner, where you named the victims. You talked about the President's committment to making a more inclusive, tolerant, accepting country. Why did you feel it was important to deliver that message, and deliver it there?

Jarrett: Well, I think what we've seen over the last few months are some very tragic deaths of young people, our children. And avoidable deaths. They were driven to committ suicide because they were being harassed in school, and driven to do something that no child should ever be driven to do. And in many cases, the parents are doing a good job. Their families are supportive. Before I spoke at the HRC dinner, I met backstage with Tammy Aarberg, her son Andrew. These are good people. They were aware that their son was gay. They embraced him. They loved him. They supported his lifestyle choice.

But yet when he left the home & he went to school, he was tortured by his classmates. What the President asked me to do was to go and deliver his message that this is an issue that's important and it needs to be addressed now. We've got to stop condoning this in the school, and acting like this is a rite of passage or something that we can't do anything about. My goal that evening was to really put a spotlight on the issue, to highlight it and make it very personal. So that people would understand, as a Mom, I wasn't there just as a Senior Adviser to the President. I was there as a Mom who has a daughter who I want to grow up in a country that really symbolizes the "more perfect union," where we are inclusive, where we are tolerant, where we appreciate our differences. And part of what makes us so strong is that we are a diverse country and that we should be setting an example for our children of civility & tolerance, and we should put a stop to all of this bullying that's going on in the schools that's causing these needless, needless deaths of our youth.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #111
170. "You" see the point you want, "we" see "lifestyle choice" and understand.
You obviously don't understand what a dog whistle that phrase is. Good luck with that.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #170
181. On the contrary, "Radical" "Activist" knows precisely what it means.
Knows it very well.

That's why RA is defending the comment.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #181
241. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #181
253. Who knew corporatism was radical?
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 12:46 AM by Jim Sagle
:shrug:
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #253
265. Would you mind
pointing out when I've argued for corporatism? Are you back to spreading nutty conspiracy theories about me again?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #181
264. I did not defend the comment.
It's very ugly and dishonest of you to pretend that I did. If you have something to write about me then reply to me directly like an adult.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #170
268. I think that if Jarrett realized how offensive it was
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 01:09 AM by Radical Activist
that she wouldn't have said it. That's pretty obvious given the point of her remarks. And that's why the OP didn't quote her directly. She was very obviously not trying to argue that orientation is a choice, and no matter how stupid the line was, the OP is engaging in manipulative spin.

Well, I think what we've seen over the last few months are some very tragic deaths of young people, our children. And avoidable deaths. They were driven to committ suicide because they were being harassed in school, and driven to do something that no child should ever be driven to do. And in many cases, the parents are doing a good job. Their families are supportive. Before I spoke at the HRC dinner, I met backstage with Tammy Aarberg, her son Andrew. These are good people. They were aware that their son was gay. They embraced him. They loved him.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #268
367. She's a smart woman. She knows.
You don't get to her position, and keep it, by being ignorant of such things.

I think she was telling her honest opinion of the issue, which isn't a surprising one, given the actions of this administration thus far.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #367
370. Capehart: "I know Jarrett knows better than this."
I expected her apology to come quickly and it did. I think she used an offensive phrase without the intention of making a statement on whether it's a choice. So does the interviewer linked in the OP.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/10/valerie_jarrett_is_no_tony_per.html

Contrary to the caustic comments on websites like firedoglake, I know Jarrett knows better than this. That's why I didn't correct her or ask her to explain herself during our sit-down at the White House. But viewers don't know her heart. They just know that what she said was offensive.

I e-mailed Jarrett last night and asked her a simple question, "Do you think being gay is a 'lifestyle choice'?" Here is her response in its entirety.
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Smashcut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #370
380. The deed is done, and it was quite revealing.
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 10:57 AM by Smashcut
Her hastily transmitted non-apology notwithstanding.
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MNBrewer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #370
404. I think she said exactly what she meant.
Her first reaction was to use the phrase "lifestyle choice". It's reflexive.
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #111
299. Absolutely -
it's obvious what she meant and I don't understand the hatefulness and closed-mindedness on these threads sometimes.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #111
364. She told me everything I needed to know with "lifestyle choice".
Why should I continue to listen to her "point" when she admits she sees homosexuality as a "lifestyle choice", thus telling me she understands nothing of the issue at all?

I think we can all agree that bullying is unacceptable, but until she understands how this bullying is directly feeding off homophobia in our society (and our government), she's never going to get it. And her admission that she sees homosexuality as a "lifestyle choice" tells us why; when you're part of the problem you rarely have anything to contribute to the solution.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #111
368. Don't you see that calling his orientation
a "lifestyle choice" adds to the threat of harm?

It's not a choice, and it's not like what brand of car you drive, or whether you have pets or live in a city or suburb. It's WHO HE IS that is at issue here. And why he was bullied to death. And demeaning that, or attempting to cover it with some sort of "choice" makes the victim complicit in his own mistreatment.

I wonder what would have happened had Capeheart asked Jarrett whether she felt her skin color was a "lifestyle choice".
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #368
373. Yes, I agree
and I understand that. She should never have said it. I'm glad she apologized and clarified that it wasn't her intent to argue that it's a choice.

My only point is that I disagree with the spin in the OP which suggests that she was delivering a sermon on orientation being a choice. She used an offensive phrase but that was obviously not her point or intention.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/10/valerie_jarrett_is_no_tony_per.html
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #88
375. Jarrett: "Sexual orientation and gender identity are not a choice"
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/10/valerie_jarrett_is_no_tony_per.html

She should not have said it. The phrase is wrong and offensive.
But it's also obvious that you have an axe to grind with the Obama administration and I guess that's why you tried to spin this into her delivering a lecture about it being a choice. That was clearly not her intent or point.

Contrary to the caustic comments on websites like firedoglake, I know Jarrett knows better than this. That's why I didn't correct her or ask her to explain herself during our sit-down at the White House. But viewers don't know her heart. They just know that what she said was offensive.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. Yes, we all did. n/t
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #84
95. The crashing, cymbal-clanging nature of her bigotry made everything else hard to hear. n/t
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #95
108. "Crashing, cymbal-clanging nature of her bigotry...." Are you serious?
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 07:37 PM by SeattleGirl
I agree it was not a good choice of words for her to use, but cymbal-clanging? That's a bit over-the-top, don't you think?
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #108
112. Have you been accused of making an evil, filthy "lifestyle choice" for as long as you can remember?
Those of us who have recognize the phrase for what it is.

And as I said below, a person might accidentally kick you in the butt once or twice, but when that same person kicks you in the butt every time you turn your back, it's not an accident.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #112
117. Has Ms. Jarrett kicked you in the butt, as you say, every time you
turn around?

You know, I get that people are upset. As I said, her choice of words was a poor one indeed; there's no question about that. But it just seems to me that "cymbal-crashing" is a response better applied to the likes of Carl Palidino, who has said far worse things about the GLBT community.

And no, I'm not telling you what to think; I'm telling you what I think.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #117
122. This administration has shown a remarkable gift for kicking us in the butt.
Events have contexts, and if this were the first time something like this had happened, then we could write it off as an unfortunate slip of the tongue, but in the context of Donnie McClurkin, KirbyJon Caldwell, "God is in the mix," Rick Warren, endless footdragging on LGBT issues, etc., "lifestyle choice" becomes part of a very unsettling pattern. The very kindest conclusion one can draw is that this administration has a tin ear for LGBT issues.

And Carl Palladino never said that if elected he would be a fierce advocate for us. Palladino is a bigoted ignoramus who is no more likely ever to be the governor of New York than my Aunt Ethel.

And I really do appreciate your civility in this discussion. It's something we just don't see much of around here anymore.
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #108
126. You do realize...
she managed to hit most every FRC/FotC latently-homophobic code-phrase and frame in that speech. That speech was offensive. No other Democratic constituency would be expected to take this lying down either.

If it wasn't intentional (and as someone who is active on social-justice and equality issues you'd have a hard time convincing me that she didn't know damned well what she was saying.) then she's the dumbest person to ever have offices inside the WH...and there's some stiff competition there from several members of the previous presidential regime.

So, no I don't think its' over the top. We'll never get the Democratic leadership we deserve if we don't demand better from the Democratic leadership we have.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #126
166. Love your last sentence and you're 100% correct
"We'll never get the Democratic leadership we deserve if we don't demand better from the Democratic leadership we have."
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #126
436. ^^^ Great post.
:toast:
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #84
106. The comment in context
might not stoke as much outrage. So it wasn't posted. She made a poor choice of words. People can decide from themselves how outraged they want to be over Jarrett trying to bring more attention to the need to stop bullying against gay teens.

Capeheart: One of the things you've put a spotlight on, and to veer sharply away from infrastructure, and that was on the rash of suicides of gay youth. You gave a speech to the Human Rights Campaign annual dinner, where you named the victims. You talked about the President's committment to making a more inclusive, tolerant, accepting country. Why did you feel it was important to deliver that message, and deliver it there?

Jarrett: Well, I think what we've seen over the last few months are some very tragic deaths of young people, our children. And avoidable deaths. They were driven to committ suicide because they were being harassed in school, and driven to do something that no child should ever be driven to do. And in many cases, the parents are doing a good job. Their families are supportive. Before I spoke at the HRC dinner, I met backstage with Tammy Aarberg, her son Andrew. These are good people. They were aware that their son was gay. They embraced him. They loved him. They supported his lifestyle choice.

But yet when he left the home & he went to school, he was tortured by his classmates. What the President asked me to do was to go and deliver his message that this is an issue that's important and it needs to be addressed now. We've got to stop condoning this in the school, and acting like this is a rite of passage or something that we can't do anything about. My goal that evening was to really put a spotlight on the issue, to highlight it and make it very personal. So that people would understand, as a Mom, I wasn't there just as a Senior Adviser to the President. I was there as a Mom who has a daughter who I want to grow up in a country that really symbolizes the "more perfect union," where we are inclusive, where we are tolerant, where we appreciate our differences. And part of what makes us so strong is that we are a diverse country and that we should be setting an example for our children of civility & tolerance, and we should put a stop to all of this bullying that's going on in the schools that's causing these needless, needless deaths of our youth.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #106
115. I guess it's true.
There really is nothing that you will not defend.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. I did not defend her use of that phrase.
Just the opposite. I defend accuracy. Is there some reason you wouldn't want people to see her full comment?
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #118
139. You pretend to defend accuracy.
But you ignore reality. When people say things like this it shows us what they really mean. Lots of empty words surrounding a "fuck you" don't mean a thing. Do you not get it or are you just doing the usual?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #139
263. "These are good people. They were aware that their son was gay. They embraced him. They loved him."
Are those comments about his parents your idea of a "fuck you?" She said something stupid. That needs to be pointed out to her. Spinning that and pretending that she was arguing that sexual orientation is a choice is grossly dishonest and cynical spin.
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Smashcut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #263
383. Why does she have to keep emphasizing how good his parents are?
How...blameless they are?

Then she combines that with the use of "lifestyle choice."

Sorry, her statement as a whole reveals the way she, and this administration, thinks of gay people. Sorry you are too consumed with the task of defending everything they do to acknowledge the truth.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #263
390. You don't have to pretend
that she said sexual orientation was choice. She said it. It is in the quotes you keep posting. Grossly dishonest and cynical is to emphasize the canned, political-speak that was the rest of her talk. Why not condemn this without having to say how saintly his parents were to put up with and support the boy in this "lifestyle" choice. The rest of her speech fell into the "Some of my best friends are . . ." category.

So yes. That part of the speech was a "fuck you" to the boy who died. Jarret was courting the votes of the parents and praised them over an over for being so kind as to "accept" the boy.

I really think you just don't get it. How understanding and long suffering his parents were is not the point. The boy had a right to be who he was, not who he chose to be. Telling an audience that the parents were so very good and kind and saintly to accept their son implies aberrancy or something that must be put up with. It wasn't just her lifestyle quote. It was the whole condescension to gays. Agreeing with her tone and language is not a good thing.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #390
399. How callous.
You don't think there have ever been parents who blamed themselves and asked what else they could have done to prevent their child's suicide? You don't think they appreciated hearing those words of support? Are you so determined to find one more cheap shot against Obama that you can't understand basic human nature? I can't be that cynical.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #399
467. To you, it all comes down to protecting Obama.
It's not about the boy. Not about the issue. Not about Jarret even. To you, it all comes down to just not wanting Obama to look bad. To you, every post, every reply is weighed in the scale of Obama's appearance.

Fine. We get your agenda. But could you flare on some issue where a boy doesn't die?
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #118
219. The best response to a painfully obvious, monumentally offensive fuckup
is to acknowledge that it is a painfully obvious, monumentally offensive fuckup, not to try to spin it into something else, a strategy that fools no one.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #219
259. I acknowledged that it was a stupid thing to say.
I did not defend it and it's wrong for you to accuse me of that. At the same time, I value honesty, and to suggest that Jarrett was intentionally trying to argue that sexual orientation is a choice, as the OP does, is grossly dishonest spin. Reading the entire quote makes that extremely obvious.
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Smashcut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #259
384. She didn't have to argue it.
Her words conveyed the entire concept in one fell swoop. Everyone knows what is meant by "lifestyle choice" and the ideology behind the people who invented that term.

Again, you are fooling no one.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #118
397. You defend accuracy?
Well, it should be awfully easy to defend the accuracy of your mind-reading abilities, then!

The comment in context might not stoke as much outrage. So it wasn't posted.

-- "Radical" "Activist" @ post #160

By what process, precisely, have you come to accurately divine the motive of the OP?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #397
406. First,
the OP is a misleading exaggeration. Jarrett used an offensive phrase while talking about the issue of gay teen suicide and bullying. The topic was not whether orientation is a choice and she was not intentionally commenting on that, as the OP strongly implies. Her apology makes it even more clear.

Second, people who care about an issue will celebrate victories. By contrast, the poster of this OP ignores or downplays anything positive the Obama administration does on GLBT issues. When patterns like that become obvious over time it suggests that other agendas are involved.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #406
429. Since you're a fan of accuracy, mind supporting your claims?
By contrast, the poster of this OP ignores or downplays anything positive the Obama administration does on GLBT issues. When patterns like that become obvious over time it suggests that other agendas are involved.

1. How many positive GLBT accomplishments are you attributing to the current administration?
2. How many of those accomplishments has Bluebear ignored or downplayed?
3. In cases where Bluebear has "ignored" the accomplishment, have you checked to confirm that Bluebear was posting on DU re: other topics on that date?
4. What is the difference (if any) between #1 and #2 above?
5. Have you done this exercise before I asked, or only as a result of my question?

Accuracy involves measuring data, not simply wild speculation about motive.
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #106
120. You can repost that until hell freezes over,
but the words and their meaning don't change. It's never been a "lifestyle choice", it isn't a "lifestyle choice", and it's never going to be a "lifestyle choice", but it was offensive, it is offensive, and it's always going to be offensive. Welcome to ignore.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #106
195. If they were so worried about gay teens, why did they headline an "ex-gay" during the campaign
who represented the single most destructive movement for gay children.

No one has yet given me an answer for that.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #106
283. Why do you always take a shit in every GLBTIQ thread there is?
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 02:54 AM by Touchdown
I really want to fucking know!
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #283
325. You've noticed that, too, eh? n/t
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #325
365. "Most of all, I hope this does not distract from the issue I was asked about...
the desperate, tragic decision by some young people who feel that their only recourse is to take their own lives because they are being bullied or harassed because they are gay, or because others believe they are gay."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/10/valerie_jarrett_is_no_tony_per.html

That was from her apology.

I get the feeling that the OP would prefer we be focused on the offensive phrase and remain distracted from the point of her comments. It's kind of conspicuous that the OP only posts about LGBT issues when it can be used to attack Obama while also ignoring the point of her statements, her HRC speech, and what the White House is doing about the issue she spoke about.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #283
363. I know...I'm supposed to be stay away like everyone else
who gets tired of being called a homophobe if they don't agree with the latest argument about why Obama hates gay people. I believe the statement was wrong and I also believe it's dishonest for the OP to spin it into some kind of lecture about orientation being a choice.

The OP should have quoted it in full. I did it for him. I don't see that as "shitting" on anything. Why are you so threatened by the full statement being posted here?
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #363
434. OK. Got that. How about an honest answer for once.
Try again. I didn't ask for excuses.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #106
366. Yikes! It's even worse "in context".
"These are good people" who "supported his lifestyle choice"?

:wow::wow::wow:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #84
110. We got the message thank you very much,
So, what other things are choices? Is it a choice for Valerie Jarrett to be Black?

There, in a nutshell, is this Administration's problem with GLBT issues. They think it's a choice and not a human right's issue.

And this came from one of his closest advisors. Just how is she advising him?

In Obama's inner circle we don't matter. We're just a pain in the ass "special interest" group who made a *choice* so this is about *special* rights in their eyes, not equal rights. And any *inconveniences* that occur as a result of our *choices*, even death, are our own fault. Sit up, shut up and wait for a few crumbs.

The real message here is that the fierce advocate has surrounded himself with other fierce advocates who are just as clueless, tin earred and insensitive as he is.

The point came through loud and clear. Wake me up when they get around to throwing us a small bone.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
85. So, have we reached the end yet?
That point when you have to put up your hands and say "That's it--I'm done!"

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foxfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
89. I have been rendered speechless.
:wow:
And my expectations were pretty low to begin with. Fire her ass.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
93. even jesus knew it`s not a life style choice.....
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. Val's a divorced woman, Jesus had harsh words for that
but you see, it is different for Val, because she is special. She gets to piss on a religion then vomit it forth at others.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
96. You know, a person might accidentally kick you in the butt once or twice, but
if the same person kicks you in the butt every time your back is turned, it's not an accident.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
97.  The astonishing ignorance and bigotry of her words. Again.
She is the voice of the Obamas, one of the chain that selected Donnie McClurkin, KirbyJon Caldwell, Rick Warren and the rest of the clerical hate caucus. They are all of them verbal bullies. This bullshit she is foisting off, she knows exactly what dogs she is whistling to. She knows well what that phrase means.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
100. Wow. "parents are....good people....who embraced his lifestyle choice:.."
Yes....Justin got up one morning and made the choice to be gay so he could be tormented by the maliciously ignorant and end up dead.

It was a Tuesday...the sky was blue and the sun was shining. Justin was thinking about what to have for breakfast when the idea came to him that he should choose to be gay - so he could reap the benefits of an equal society and a life unobstructed by ignorance and hate.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. And it wasn't his parents' fault.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 07:21 PM by EFerrari
:puke:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. Amazing isn't it?
Just mind boggling.




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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #101
104. You see, even though their son was a godless pervert, it wasn't their fault! n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #104
131. I'm sure the parents took a lot of comfort in hearing
that it isn't their fault their son was gay.

:puke:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #131
160. !
Exactly!!
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #101
121. The logic of it is so offensive
As if Justin *chose* to make himself so miserable, despite his *decent* parents, that suicide was the next obvious *choice*.

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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #101
179. I think she meant the suicide wasn't their fault. If he had had parents
who were homophobes, they could have contributed to his misery, but he didn't.
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Mattylock Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #179
450. I agree.
I think her comments about the parents were to highlight the fact that his family was supportive, yet due to the ugliness of strangers, he committed suicide.
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lightningandsnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
102. Holy tactless, batman!
:puke:
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
113. She's such a pig, and the Obamas think she's the best
Backwater hack Jarrett is dragging us all down for the sake of her own crony ego. She's doing, as they say, a heck of a job.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
119. I just listened to the interview at the OP's link, and here's the heinous FUCK YOU quote
(Alternatively you can get to the interview from Capeheart's own column http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/10/valerie_jarrett_on_infrastruct.html )

At the end of an interview about infrastructure, Capeheart asked Ms. Jarrett a question about her speech at the Human Rights Campaign dinner.

She's speaking just a little too fast for me to provide you with an exact transcript, but here goes on why the POTUS sent her there at this time

"the rash of suicides of gay youth" -- that these were "avoidable deaths" of "young people, our children"
that "in many cases their parents are doing a good job, their families are supportive"
but that they were driven to commit suicide because of harassment and torment at school.

Addressing the legitimate concern of family rejection
"In many cases their parents are doing a good job, their families are supportive"
yet they were driven to commit suicide because they were harassed at school

Spoke to the parents of (a young man) before she went on
"They're good people" (e.g.) "They embraced him, they loved him, they supported his lifestyle choice. Yet when he left home he was tortured by his classmates."

On why the president sent her there to speak
* "We have to stop condoning this (school bullying) and acting though this is a rite of passage that everyone has to go through."

Speaks as a mother who wants to see her daughter grow up in a world that is "inclusive" "tolerant" "accepting of differences" etc. etc.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And there you have it, folks. The great big FUCK YOU straight from the president's advisor. The vile, homophobic, bigoted, tone-deaf, cause for resignation, shitting all over our dead, cause for firing, evidence of a stealth right wing theme in the WH, asshole, cause for tears, hurt, and anger, weird and anachronistic, trying to give the parents a pass, going out of their way to piss us off, backward bigoted fuckers, ignorant, clueless, called son a godless pervert, pig, crashing cymbal-clanging nature of her bigotry...

Missed anything? Oh yeah, as of my posting, no one's mentioned the bus.

The big ole FUCK YOU bus.

Hekate


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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #119
123. "Lifestyle choice" has been a buzzword of the far, far religious rightwing for many years
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 08:38 PM by ruggerson
It is a phrase that has been used as a poltical weapon against our communities many times. The fact that this woman employs the language of Phyllis Schlafly and James Dobson circa 1995 is stupefying. The fact that she is arguably one of Obama's two or three closest advisors is frightening.

The phrase is a dog whistle.

We don't have "lifestyles" Hekate.

We have lives.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #119
124. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #119
125. And that's what no skin in the game sounds like, precisely.
Thank you!
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #125
150. It's drive-by online gay baiting
she rarely returns to the scene of the crime to actually discuss something.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #150
155. So true. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #150
157. You know something, ruggerson, I have no business feeling this good.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 09:49 PM by EFerrari
I really don't. There is still so much wrong and the hatred is being amped up at the moment. But when I look around and read around and listen, I know we're winning. It's like watching a glacier come apart.

What this woman said, what any of them say, is detritus. That's a shame, it is, but it won't stop what is happening right now.

So privileged to be here to see it, I had no idea that I'd ever see anything like this again.





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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #157
176. I actually feel the same way
And I think you're exactly right. The hysterics, the name calling, the anger are all end stage frantic death rattles of a massive, superstitious, religious culture being cut wide open, an ugly gash exposed for everyone to see.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #157
437. I agree. The tide is turning, albeit slowly.
:thumbsup:
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #119
127. If you don't understand why using lifestyle choice in that context
is offensive, then you have no business in gay threads.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #127
216. She understands perfectly, she just doesn't care.
And that is proven again and again.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #216
353. Dog whistling is perfectly ok if it's toward teh gays dontcha know.
It's truly despicable. :puke: As if posting the entire paragraph over and over in context excuses the whistling.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #119
162. "They embraced him, they loved him, they supported his lifestyle choice."
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 10:03 PM by Number23
"They embraced him, they loved him, they supported his lifestyle choice. Yet when he left home he was tortured by his classmates."

It is a very unfortunate choice of words. A very unfortunate and INACCURATE choice of words. If she had said "that boy's lifestyle choice is what lead to his death" I'd be mad as hell too. But anyone trying to pretend that her use of the phrase here is "bigoted" is bending over backwards to overstate the injury here -- not that this is unusual around here.

She could have used another phrase, she SHOULD have used another phrase but as usual the entire point of what she's saying is DELIBERATELY ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative. I hope Ms. Jarrett issues a clarification of her comments but I have a million, no a BILLION times more confidence in her and her compassion on this issue than the idiots who are demanding her head over this.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #162
172. It's a dog whistle
Period.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #172
189. All of those on this thread defending the remarks, or excusing them, know that quite well.
ALL of them. They've been around long enough to know what the phrase really means.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #189
192. Yep, of course they do.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #189
197. I agree
I'm an idiot (one who wants Jarrett to resign or fired) and I know being gay is not a "lifestyle choice". It is so simple to me and we all read this on DU a thousand times, "When did you decide to be straight?". It is not a choice and someone as smart as Jarrett should understand that.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #189
232. Of course they do. That's what makes it even more intolerable. n/t
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #172
223. and it worked
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #172
433. +1
It's been one for years, and you'd have to be living under a rock not to know it.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #162
231. You can spin it all you want and deliberately miss the point that it's not a choice
but you still won't pass off a sow's ear as a silk purse.

Thanks for your support. It's allies like you that make it possible for us to be where we are today.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #231
248. Lady, did you miss the point where I acknowledge that her comment was inaccurate?
It's obvious that you're caught up in the moment along with a bunch of other people, but if you're going to pick a fight with someone make sure you at least know what the hell you're talking about.

P.S. Would love to see you in the black forum sometimes since I've seen you acknowledge that you're also black. We've had some discussions in there too about people being mistreated that you may find interesting. Or maybe not judging your lack of interest in the forum.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #248
272. Lady, you made yourself perfectly clear when you called us idiots
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 01:23 AM by Catherina
and continue to remain deliberately obtuse after all the explanations in this thread.

And sorry no, I don't hang by race or any other box.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #272
274. LOL!
I don't hang by race or any other box. :rofl: :rofl:

And you call ME obtuse??! :rofl:

Oh Lordy. Thanks for that. That was my laugh of the day, right there.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #162
329. The other problem with what she said in "embraced him,...loved him
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 07:44 AM by KoKo
as if his lifestyle choice was something that other parents would have a problem with. She really should have worded her statement in a different way. It made it sound as though his parents loved him in spite of his sexuality. Putting the "lifestyle choice" there made it worse.

She should have said,"... he had loving parents who are devastated that this bullying would have led to their son's tragic taking of his own life." Or she should have left the parents out of her comment and made the point that being bullied or spied upon to identify or exploit sexuality of anyone whether male or female should not be tolerated in our society.

I have to believe she was sending a message to the "Left" once again and her comment had to do with the election cycle rather than her compassion.

This administration sends the same signals about "old people" and we need to watch what they do with SS/Medicare when the Deficit Commission reports after the election.

Gays, Old People, Professional Left.... I wonder who else in the Democratic Party they will trash next. It seems calculated to try to win Conservative Voters. Reaching across the aisle while trashing your own supporters is a very bizarre strategy.





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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
128. Can we get her fired, or can only Glen Beck do that?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #128
134. This must be a job for Breitbart. n/t
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
133. Is anyone on this thread watching the video?
On DU I see a lot of people react to things without actually reading/listening to the things they are supposedly reacting to.

In that segment Capehart was interviewing her about a speech she gave to the Human Rights Campaign, and in her response she referred to the young people who committed suicide as our children, she spoke of an inclusive society, she spoke of civility and tolerance.

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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. But did she calls it a lifestyle choice?
If so, it's sad.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #133
138. Yes. And she referred to being gay as a lifestyle choice
and she repeated at least three time that the parents were good people. And?

There is really no question of civility or of "tolerance" as if we have any right to "tolerate" anyone. There is no question of inclusion if you start out marginalizing a dead gay kid for making the bad choice of being born as themselves even if you try to let the parents off the hook.

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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #133
143. Not being gay doesn't excuse you not getting it.
If I give away deep-seated racial prejudice in the middle of a lot of clap-trap, empty phrases, I would get called on it. If I spent three paragraphs talking about unity within DU and about how nice it would be, then dropped a "cheerleader" phrase, I would get called on it.

The speech you seem to love isn't the point. It isn't much of a speech. It was a chore assigned by her boss. She just fouled up by letting her true feeling show.
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #143
461. Three paragraphs...
If a word or expression causes you to disqualify everything else, I'd question that.

As for her intent, mine, or anyone else, I'm not convinced you have enough information to make those judgments.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #133
148. I'm sorry, but she actually used the words "lifestyle choice"
Which is the universally accepted term used by HOMOPHOBES when they know that using the word "FAG" would not be advisable.

She deserves every bit of the scorn invoked on this thread.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #148
167. And just look at all the DUers defending her remarks or trying to pass them off as less than
open bigotry.

I mean, really. Do these jerkoffs have to actually say the word "faggots" in their posts to get banned, or are the mods allowing soft bigotry these days? There are three or four on this thread who should be shitcanned immediately, but they're just getting their posts deleted, even when it proves that they have no business posting here in the first place. I doubt they're even getting warnings.

It's amazing.
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
135. The Obama Administration really isn't very good on gay rights, is it? (nt)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #135
158. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #158
169. "You people"? Who the hell is "you people"? How repulsive
but fully in line with Jarrett and apparently the entire administration.

But gee, thanks for showing your true colors.
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #169
257. When I say "you people" I'm not
necessarily referring to only gays. There are gays here that are grateful for Obama's accomplishments and are being patient as progress is made. Then there are you people (gay or straight) that complain because gay rights haven't been achieved overnight. You are welcome to join us in the real world.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #257
260. Allow me to kiss the hem of your saintly robes right before I put you on ignore
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 01:02 AM by Catherina
since you only get more offensive with each post. I can see you perfectly well saying the same thing to Blacks a few decades ago. The appalling thing is that you even could be Black. Whatever you are, I don't care because your contributions to this painful news are reprehensible.

You can keep your crumbs. Goodbye.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #158
171. What a reprehensible thing to say.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 10:12 PM by Occulus
I hope that was sarcasm and you just forgot to add the tag.

edit: "YOU PEOPLE"??? What, you couldn't get away with "all you faggots", so you decided to soften it?
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #171
258. Don't put words in my mouth, son. Read my
previous post.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #258
293. I'm thankfully not your son and that post appears to have been deleted.
Which means it wasn't worth reading in the first place.

Your "you people" came through loud and clear, thanks. I stand by my pointing out of what it obviously implied. You don't get to walk that one back hours after the fact just because you got caught.
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muffin1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #171
327. Hey...
apparently, 'you people' should also be 'grateful' for your crumbs. WTF? Is there nothing these apologists won't forgive?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #327
341. Not a thing.
I truly hope this episode has exposed how truly out-of-touch the Cult of Obama Personality has become.

It was never about ponies.
It was never about poutrage.
It was never about President Palin.

It was always, and will always be, about a small group of DUers who intended from the beginning to shut down progressives who lean further left than the exact center, people who would say anything and stop at nothing to disrupt, shout down, and in general bring to an end any and all criticism of Obama and his administration, no matter how legitimate the criticism.

They are what has been 'wrong' with DU literally from the day of Obama's inauguration. Fortunately for all of us, on this thread, some of the worst of the lot have exposed themselves.

It's time to bring it to an end. They're not worth listening to or engaging. Throw them on ignore, and let's get going with forcing this administration to be better and do more for us than it ever really intended to begin with.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #158
173. Show some gratitude? Seriously? Seriously?
I'm going to call my gay daughter right NOW and tell her she needs to start kneeling at the Altar of Obama and showing some fucking gratitude rather than campaign for her basic human rights and being angry that one of the president's CLOSEST ADVISORS who's been with him for YEARS would openly call homosexuality a "lifestyle choice".

Gratitude? Seriously?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #173
261. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #261
285. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #173
431. Hey, careful, don't want to miss
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 01:06 PM by mitchtv
the next Easter Egg Roll(for good gays)
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #158
178. I don't think it's your place to tell us what we should be "grateful" for
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #178
262. Just because I'm not gay does not mean I can't opine on this
subject. You don't have a monopoly on the gay rights struggle.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #262
392. Please tell me this is some sort of performance art
No one can be this out of touch.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #392
438. Stick around for the blackface show in the second act.
I hear it's a real hoot.
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Umbral Donating Member (969 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #158
226. Is this the appropriate juncture to point out that is was the Log Cabin Republican's suit
that currently has DADT deemed unconstitutional?

I thought so. It will be very telling what happens next, wont it?
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #158
243. "You people ..." LOL, for real?
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 12:04 AM by liberation
As "moderates" you guys really make nice reactionaries.

Do you and your friends in this thread have no sense of decency whatsoever? "You people," "Show some gratitude," good grief! Using the same whistle tones as the old GOP regarding whichever social group you feel is being too "uppity?" Congratulations.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #243
266. It's appalling. In no way can I be allies with that kind of sentiment.
There's no tent big enough to hide that kind of ugliness.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #243
267. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #267
270. As a member of the fringe left
I know enough of history to learn that in those struggles, "wait" almost always meant "never". Usually when two sides disagree on this struggle, one side is suggesting to wait. We have the Dems in all branches but that isn't good enough, we may lose a house or two in November and things really won't get done.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
140. Once again, the intended audience is silent if not absent.
K&R
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #140
146. Perhaps they see nothing to object to. n/t
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #140
153.  A few of them threw drive-by grenades
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
144. Old, straight guy here. I find her prejudice obvious and disgusting.
She's made the lifestyle choice to be a bigot. Aarberg was living a life, not a lifestyle.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
145. Cringing here.
"Lifestyle"

How patronizing. How condescending.

How fucking ignorant.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
147. she is in the closet ?
if she thinks it is a choice, she is projecting her own experience -- perhaps she chooses to hide in the closet because she fears the consequences of coming out. she looks at this incident as confirmation that she is making the right CHOICE of lifestyles.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
152. I believe it's time for Ms. Jarrett to make the lifestyle choice to spend more time with her family
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
154. Seems appropriate that it is at the 4:20 mark
She must have been on something ;)
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
156. Her comment is on par with a fundie saying it is a disease or a psychological disorder.
Wow, can we get some progressives in the WH? Oh right, we 'professional lefties' need to stfu and sit down in the back. Sorry, sorry had a DFH moment. Go on, just keep making huge mistakes and help disenfranchise your base. I'll shut up now. :hi:
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #156
290. WH filled with nothing but props! This admin is so confused it's sad.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
164. K&R because the insults never stop.
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
168. So it's cool on DU now to debate whether or not it's bigoted to refer to being gay as a
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 10:10 PM by superduperfarleft
"lifestyle choice?" Wow...just wow.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #168
180. Who's debating that? n/t
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #168
183. Yeah..Really...I never knew that there was anything to debate.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #168
191. That's the one good thing about this thread.
It's putting DU's most vile bigots on display for all to see.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #168
439. They'll tell us when we're allowed to be offended.
:eyes:
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
177. It was a very stupid thing to say, but I'll give her some credit
for the rest of what she said.

"Jarrett: Well, I think what we've seen over the last few months are some very tragic deaths of young people, our children. And avoidable deaths. They were driven to committ suicide because they were being harassed in school, and driven to do something that no child should ever be driven to do. And in many cases, the parents are doing a good job. Their families are supportive. Before I spoke at the HRC dinner, I met backstage with Tammy Aarberg, her son Andrew. These are good people. They were aware that their son was gay. They embraced him. They loved him. They supported his lifestyle choice.

But yet when he left the home & he went to school, he was tortured by his classmates. What the President asked me to do was to go and deliver his message that this is an issue that's important and it needs to be addressed now. We've got to stop condoning this in the school, and acting like this is a rite of passage or something that we can't do anything about.

______________________________

Here's one thing that doesn't get talked about -- much, anyway. With bisexuals, having same-sex or opposite-sex relationships can be a choice. Are gays and lesbians more acceptable because they don't have a choice? That's not what we're saying, is it?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #177
186. "And in many cases, the parents are doing a good job."
What is THAT?
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #186
193. What is that?
A very long, tedious story that all of us here have heard many times....
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #186
204. Some parents do make things worse for their gay children.
Hopefully most are supportive. But are they all? Certainly not.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #177
190. bisexuals don't choose to be bisexual
An administration that shamelessly used an "ex-gay" gospel singer as a host of an event designed to appeal to the worst instincts in our society does not get much of a pass from me.

As many of us said at the time, the Donnie McCLurkins of the world are central parts of a movement that kills gay children.

Valerie Jarrett was at the epicenter of Obama's campaign. This is just another dog whistle. It's pretty ballsy of her to even bring this up.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #190
287. No, but many bisexual people can choose to have fulfilling relationships
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 04:42 AM by pnwmom
with members of either gender.

I know a number of bisexual women who aren't comfortable with the idea that sexuality that is chosen is somehow wrong. Is being gay only acceptable in your eyes because it isn't a choice? What if it IS a choice to some specific people? Who don't really identify as gay or straight? Who could just as easily live, in a monogamous relationship, as a gay person or a straight person? If they choose to identify with the gay part of themselves, rather than the straight part, is that wrong?

(What does this "another dog whistle" mean? I've seen this expression a couple times, but I haven't heard it before.)
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here's a gay writer who's expressing the point of view I'm talking about.

http://gender.eserver.org/on-choosing.html

Homosexuality is a part of human nature. The potential for exploring this aspect of the personality exists in all civilized societies. It is ironic that at this time it is the Christian Fundamentalists who realize this basic truth about homosexuality while most homosexuals, especially those in the political realm, deny any choice and insist that homosexuals are just like any other minority in that they have no choice; i.e., we're either born homosexual or made homosexual by something outside of our control. The Christian Fundamentalist, although aware of this truth regarding homosexuality as part of the human condition, insists that to choose this path is sinful, evil and opposed to the laws of nature and of God. According to Christian Fundamentalists, homosexuality is a choice only sinners make. The political homosexual is like any other politician in that practicality and expediency define his or her world. The focus is not on what is true or right, but rather on what is acceptable to the majority. If we say we have no choice of lifestyle then we are like any other minority group and that position gains for us a more broad-based support in the political realm. If, however, we say that we have a choice of lifestyle, that is a direct threat to many of the basic assumptions upon which our society rests.

I grew up in a world that was homophobic and learned quickly that to discuss this part of my personality was to invite rejection. One could make jokes about the subject but one could never discuss it seriously or with respect. For this reason, most homosexuals grow up thinking that something is wrong with them and often that they are the only one who has such feeling and questions. In short, we learn quickly that homosexuality is something to fear and something to hide.

It speaks to either our courage or honesty that we did not give in to this fear; that despite all of this massive pressure coming from without we chose to explore this aspect of our personality. In addition, since homosexuality is a part of human nature, it tells us a great deal about the world we live in when we realize that most people do not choose to explore this aspect of their personality, but decide to deny, suppress, or hide it.

Most homosexuals view their 'coming out' as a time when they resigned themselves to their inability to choose and 'accepted' themselves. While this acceptance of self is superior to living a closeted lie, it is still psychologically damaging in that it ignores all the choices we made that brought us to the point of 'coming out'. This is understandable. If we lived in a healthy world where concepts like 'love' and 'power' were not restricted by conventional gender roles we would be able to see the choices that we made with clarity. However, we were born into and live in a world that is ignorant and immoral. We do not see choices in this area because we have been taught that there are none.



From what I've read though, this kind of attitude is more common among women lesbians and bisexuals. For example, this woman considers herself a "radical queer."

http://www.queerbychoice.com/homophobes.html

Does the idea of choice encourage homophobes to say that
queers don't deserve equal rights?

Most people believe we should have the right to freely choose our religious beliefs without loss of other civil rights. Why shouldn't we have the same right to freely choose our sexual preference? Queer by choice people challenge homophobes to answer that question. We assert that we have a right to choose to be queer. It's none of the government's business, our parents' business, or anyone else's business but our own to decide which gender we should fall in love with or marry. And it's insulting to all queers that the mainstream queer movement (especially in the United States) argues in court on a regular basis that the reason people have a right to be queer is that we supposedly can't help it. That is not the reason that anyone has the right to be queer. The reason everyone has the right to be queer is that everyone has the right to control their own mind and body unless it infringes on anyone else's right to control their mind and body. Two queers making passionate love to each other are not infringing on anyone else's rights; they're simply making each other happy.

So why are so many queers so afraid of the idea of choice? This is an age in which Dr. Laura recently motivated hundreds of thousands of homophobes to flood Vermont lawmakers' offices with letters and phone calls railing angrily against the possibility of same-sex marriage, on the grounds that gay people are, in the words of Dr. Laura, "biological errors." Yes, you heard that right: she said biological. And hundreds of thousands of listeners heard her words and obediently called the Vermont lawmakers; offices to complain that the "biological errors" should not be allowed to marry. Gosh, what a lot of good that biological theory did for queer rights.

SNIP

Perhaps the most important contribution of queer by choice people to the fight against homophobia is that when we say that we chose to be queer, we force people to realize that it's possible to want to be queer. For too long homophobes have painted us as one-sided creatures who experience nothing but nonstop pain. To paint us this way is to paint us as something less than full and well-rounded human beings, and they paint us this way specifically to scare others into repressing their own potential queerness. The reality is that there's much to enjoy about being a member of the queer community and we who are queer by choice want homophobes to realize and acknowledge that.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
182. As far as her message she was expressing concern for violence against gay youth
but that's not your point is it. You don't care about that.

You'd rather divert attention from the problem and make it about the administration. Good work though.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #182
187. +1 n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #182
188. Excuse me, but when Obama's closest adviser is unaware
that being gay is not a "lifestyle choice", that IS about the administration.



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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #188
196. .
I respect your opinion. However, I'd rather tell you I agree whole heartedly with you on every major issue (at least nearly) including this one, then get diverted into an argument about some sideshow that won't bring back anyone. We are on the cusp of another civil rights revolution and there is a huge backlash raising its ugly head toward lgbt citizens, and its got everyone pointing fingers at each other, including allies who are growing impatient because of how close they have moved this thing to something approaching success.

I understand why this dog whistle phrase is problematic. I do. She needs to be educated as to what it means.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #196
205. I believe you are marginalizing a rather serious issue, though you don't
see it that way. The rest of us, see this as a huge issue and won't win votes due to disenfranchisement (and worse). Words have consequences and shouldn't be swept under the rug due to political inconvenience. Just my 2 cents.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #205
214. I apologize if that's what I did.
Not my intent.

They do have consequences.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #214
221. No need to apologize, that is why I said you probably didn't see
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:29 PM by Rex
it that way. I appreciate your civility on this topic and think we see it with different levels of importance. I'm worried about what she said; you are worried about this distracting from her entire message.

I think Obama will get on TV and apologize and say that is not what she meant to say.


EDIT - And I know, it is unfuckingbelievable that she didn't know what she was saying exactly. I'm just to dumbfounded to believe it at this moment.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #221
235. I agree.
And I haven't been so civil with a few less civil folks.

I try to respond in kind most of the time. Anyway, I hope it leads to some recognition more broadly because to tell you the truth the clumsy use of this "choice" meme is widespread nearly to the point of the "welfare queen". I've heard it used in seemingly innocuous ways just like this by well-meaning people - which to me means there is a lot of education that needs to be done regarding the political history of the phrase. It is much more broadly used than the people below seem to think, its not just the ant-gay movement, and its meaning doesn't always contain the same religious undertones, as if someone choosing to be gay would somehow be wrong. It's overly simplistic to say that of course, but why would that choice be a bad thing? Seriously. But that's an entirely different thread or maybe something more appropriate for an academic discussion.

I'm frankly ducking out of this, its not the place to be having this discussion. I'd rather discuss how best to end the bigotry than score political points on the issue.

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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #235
279. The point is that it is not a choice.
That is what leads to ugly nasty things happening to gay people, that incendiary belief that it is a choice. Who would choose it? No one, especially not considering we are told even God hates us.

The point is that using that phrase emboldens groups that psychologically damage gay people by trying to use "reparative therapy" on us. Yes. The APA has stated that reparative therapy is psychologically damaging.
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/just-the-facts.aspx

Continuing to use the phrase, "lifestyle CHOICE" (capitalized choice to emphasize the word) emboldens these reparative therapy type groups to continue to "do more harm than good" to gay people.

If we really want the suicides to end, one of the most effective places to start is to educate people that it is NOT a choice and take some of the power of those reparative therapy groups away, so that they cannot continue to spiritually and psychologically abuse gay people.

That is the crux of the argument here.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #196
212. The term is at least fifteen years old
Both she and every fucking person on this thread know exactly what "lifestyle choice" means.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #196
213. I believe you are trying to think through this just as I am.
I believe there are a lot of people of goodwill that are doing exactly that.

And, it's not possible for me to believe that one of Obama's closest advisors needs to be educated on the foremost civil rights issue of the day. I can't bring myself to believe that she didn't know exactly what she was saying.

Valerie Jarrett is an accomplished person. She is in charge of her mouth.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #213
224. .
I really don't think debating this point will get us anywhere. This thread was meant to distract IMO. It won't get us closer to marriage equality, ending hate crimes, etc.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #224
244. No, this thread was meant to point out the obvious. And high time, too.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #182
194. In this case the problem IS the administration.
Namely, its open and unapologetic bigotry against GLBTs through its use of the term "lifestyle choice".

And you good and fucking well know it.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #194
198. see my post directly above
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #198
215. I did, and you fail.
As I responded to you up there, the term is at least fifteen years old. She and everyone else knows exactly what it means.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #182
200. So do you think the "ex-gay" movement, pushed by major churches, is a big threat to gay kids?
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #200
201. What the fuck is your problem?
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 10:54 PM by izzybeans
Seriously, in what world is that a sane response? Holy shit you've lost it.

Why would I think that the ex-gay movement isn't anything but dangerous?
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #201
207. Well, see I actually care about gay teens
And I know that the rightwing churches and the message they preach, and the resulting culture that they create are the main threat to gay youth. And if you're not aware of that, then maybe you should be, because the administration you're defending on this issue doesn't have much credibility in that arena.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #207
208. I can post non-sequiturs as well if you'd like.
Reason need not apply.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #208
217. how is it a non sequitur?
You posted that Valerie Jarrett was concerned about violence against gay youth and I'm pointing out that it's pretty hard to believe that considering their history on these issues. See post 199 if you still don't follow the logic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9310491&mesg_id=9313681
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #217
227. .
guilt by association I see. Big stretch but good try. This is silly.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #208
218. The term "lifestyle choice" is CENTRAL to the ex-gay "ministries".
It forms the basis of their existence, actually.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #218
222. IT seems many people haven't made the connection yet between evangelical churches
ex-gay ministries and kids killing themselves.

It's tragic that it has taken such horrible events to bring the ugliness out in the sunlight.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #218
225. Is this relevant to how it was used in the OP?
Are you really saying Valarie Jarret has something to do with ex-gay ministries? Seriously?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #225
229. No, her comment.
It's their central premise.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #229
239. I don't mean to redirect you again, but see my comment below.
I think I'll back out now. I waded in without meaning to jump into this so deeply.

:)
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #225
230. Well why did they headline one during the campaign?
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:36 PM by ruggerson
the history of their actions COUPLED with the language of the religious rightwing ("lifestyle choice") suggests, at best, callous political calculation without much genuine regard for the welfare of gay kids.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #230
238. I understand the need to keep pressing the issue.
You have a stronger stomach for this than me. I suppose that's all I'll say about it. I suspect we are on the cusp of good things legally, but not quite there. Culturally we have a long, long way to go before the bigotry ends.

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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #238
246. agreed
I bet you have just as strong a stomach as I, mine's just average. :)

But, I do hold them accountable for both their deeds and words. And I think we all have a right to do that, since we voted this administration into power.

I think we're at the tipping point.

What's interesting to me is that there is a contingent here that tries to marginalize most LGBTers and their allies here as out of the mainstream. Look at the argument of the day on DADT.

On the one hand you have the folks saying Obama should not appeal the ruling and let the statute die and put an end to this.

On the other hand, you have the folks saying the first group doesn't understand how the law works and we're way out of line and Obama is doing this slowly and carefully, etc.

Then the New York TImes comes out tonight and says exactly what the first group has been saying all day. Completely validates our argument. And I wouldn't characterize the Times as a group of know nothing activist malcontents. :)

Interesting times we live in.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #182
210. Thank you.
And everyone on this site sees it for what it is.

This has gone beyond tedious. It's gone beyond even insanity.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #210
309. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #182
369. Jarrett, while representing the administration, sided with Team Homophobia.
I'd say it was she who made it about the administration.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
211. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gatorboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
220. You know what's a lifestyle choice? Religion.
And what do you know! It's protected by law.
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political_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
236. I just want to say this. And then, I'll politely sit out and read the rest of the discussion.
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 12:03 AM by political_Dem
I agree that Ms. Jarrett has said a poor choice of words. I desperately want equality for everyone so that they marry whomever they want and serve openly without being fettered with restraint. I am sorry that people were offended by what she said. But in that offense, other things were said and done that were outwardly disrespectful to not only Black people and other groups of color in the threads discussing this issue.

This was especially the case of someone haphazardly explaining the feelings of some African Americans when it comes to the Civil Rights era. And it was not acknowledged that not all Blacks think or act that way--especially when it comes to the rights of the LGBTQI community. Instead, because of the anger towards the POTUS and Ms. Jarrett, there is a blanket blame and disrespect that constantly runs through the entire length of threads.

With that conclusion, it harkens back to the aftermath of Prop 8 where Black people and other groups of color suffered insults and rage due to poor statistics and fervent animus. I even wonder what the LGBTQI community plans to do after they reach their equality to break down the prejudice and anger that has erupted since Nov. 2008. Will they, in reaching their equality, stop treating people of color outside and within their community like second class citizens?

Do they ever wonder what it looks like to communties of color when they hurl their insults at the POTUS?

I love passion and action in politics because it fuel social movements and creates momentous changes. I want the struggles of both the LGBTQI community and communities of color to succeed so that we all get ahead in this society. In that way, we all win.

However, respect goes both ways.

Now, I will go back to reading and learning more of this situation. Thanks for hearing me out.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #236
245. What color do you think GLBT people are?
That would be the answer to your question.
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political_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #245
250. They are of all races.
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 12:13 AM by political_Dem
But that does not excuse the racism of some members of the LGBTQI community. There are other issues that go hand in hand with equality that need to be discussed. It doesn't help when the loudest spokespersons are white males and females of the LGBTQI community who use their white privilege while disrepecting people of color within and outside their community.

Racism has been a part of this from the days of Prop. 8. That too should be discussed when dealing with the notion of equality.
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CBR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #236
332. Good post. Thank for your thoughts. nt
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political_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #332
344. You are very welcome, CBR. Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts.
All I want in this powerful discussion is civility and respect so that both sides are heard. I've learned quite a deal from both sides that will help shape my thinking on this issue.
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Smashcut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #236
386. Oh, we knew this was coming, didn't we? "Gay people are racists."
In fact, anyone who calls these people out on their bullshit is a racist, is that correct?

Your broad brush smear of the gay community by way of misdirection from this administration's antipathy toward gay people is not appreciated.

/ignore
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political_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #386
408. Just like your broad brush of bigotry is not appreciated.
Yes, some people in the LGBTQI community are racist. I found that out loud and clear after the Prop 8 aftermath as well as the blatant disrespect to people of color in the guise of this issue. And some are unrepentant about it.

Instead of reaching out to communities of color some of the LGBTQI community prefer to be racist in their behavior. And it is a damned shame because understanding each other could have lessened a lot of anger and pain.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
237. Did Obama fire his racist agriculture officer, Sherrod?
How did that whole thing work out, making snap decisions, based on knee-jerk reaction, to comments taken completely out of context?

Oh, it was the wrong decision? Hum.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #237
247. Wow, there are no depths of fallacy some of you are willing to dive to spin this one out...
Unbelievable. And yet quite eye opening.

Keep talking guys, keep talking... the facade will be harder to maintain. That is about the only positive I can think of these sort of cluster fucks.

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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #247
275. I read it in context, and knew it wasn't a potshot at my people.
The kid came out, his parents supported him, and that was the end of the story....

Until chunks of the MUST BE OUTRAGED AT EVERYTHING media got a hold of it, and put their own spin on it.

Here, let me break it down for you:

Coming out is a choice.

Living openly is a choice.

I've had my ass beat enough times, and been whispered about enough, to know how and when to make those choices. It's gotten easier in the last 10 years, but it's hard as hell for a child or teenager to *choose* to be open about their sexual orientation, or their gender.

The text in the OP added another set of homophobic contexts, and reflected that homophobia onto the words involved, specifically that:
1. Being GLBTQ is an absurd, uncontrollable, force that has no choices involved, *ever*, so mentioning choices is unforgivable.
2. That there is a huge, monolithic, "lifestyle", that all GLBTQ folks share, so if the word "lifestyle" is mentioned, GLBTQ can be dehumanized as "others" who are "living that lifestyle".

It's really not as simple as all that.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #275
362. Let me break it down for you: lifestyle choice.
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 09:45 AM by Raster
No it isn't. Let me spell it out for you: B-O-R-N - G-A-Y. This isn't a "lifestyle". This isn't a "choice".

"coming out is a choice"? and "living openly is a choice"? Yes, "the choice" is live your life as a valid human being or as a house gay, forever sitting at the back of the lavender bus. That's your choice.

"I read it in context, and knew it wasn't a potshot at my people." How's that bus working out for ya?

Remember, it's just one song and a two minute prayer, oh, and, a "lifestyle choice."
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #362
464. You have no choices?
My bus sucks, but I'm still alive.

Barely.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #247
296. I really appreciate blowups like this, actually.
It points out who the bigots are on DU in very stark relief.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #296
465. I find it points to the knee-jerk racists upset over "niggardly".
YMMV.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #237
328. We have the entire interview linked in the OP
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #328
466. We have entire posts taken out of context.
:shrug:
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #237
356. Aw don't worry
They won't get fired for this... after all, the only people this comment is pissing off are the activists in the party and the democratic liberal base. Now if they were falsely accused of some kind of nonsensical reverse-racism by a committed liar on a network that spits out nothing but lies on a doctored tape and if the appointee was a bit too progressive, then you can bet your ass they would be fired.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
249. Isn't a "bully victim" still a victim?
I really don't want to parse words with certain idiots that are involved with this admin. Quite frankly...they don't get it.

That said, rationalizing why that person might be a victim seems...apologetic for the allegations against the accused crim. The White House backing that smacks of homophobia.

I didn't fucking vote for that.
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Mosaic Donating Member (851 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
252. It's more a lifestyle choice
To be a bully and hate on those different than you. This is the year 2010, 1950 called and it wants all its morons back.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
256. That's sad.
Sad to think someone in the WH feels that way. Tragic, really.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #256
273. Mad, you're a real gem. I didn't think anything could deflate my joy about the miners' rescue today
then I learned about this.

Tragic is the right word. Thank you for always being there.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #256
292. Whats so sad is everytime you have democrats trying to frame repubs as extremist like they are
we have a clueless president that thinks they're going to work with him. They'll work with him on a rightwing agenda for sure. Boy were we setup.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
269. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
webDude Donating Member (830 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
276. Dump her. Let her get educated on her own dime.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
278. WTF?
How many idiots are there in the U.S. who believe gay people get up one day & say, "I think I'll decide to be gay." Goddamn idiots.

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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #278
284. More than dont still
dont fool yourself
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Smashcut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #284
387. Well then it makes perfect sense to cater to them.
:crazy:
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
281. Why is anybody surprised by this?
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 02:51 AM by Touchdown
This is something that I expect from this White House. I am not shocked or surprised by this... And No she won't be fired or apologize, nor will anybody else in the White House.

Benefit of the doubt on GLBTIQ for this WH is gone for me.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #281
304. I don't think it surprises very many of us.
What surprises us is the number of DUers defending the comments with apparent impunity. True, they're both being exposed as the bigots they are and getting their asses handed to them in the process, but I think I'd rather catch a whiff of pizza instead.

At least we know exactly who they are now. I'll be bookmarking this thread. It's very.... educational.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 03:58 AM
Response to Original message
286. just screw them... I've written them off for '12 anyhow. I told my sibling a few wks ago that I bet
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 04:18 AM by Divine Discontent
his advisors, including JARRETT, were not very caring/understanding about our suffering in this country - and oh my goodness, I cannot WAIT to show this story! This is even worse than that feeling, as it screams everything so many have tried to relay about how the WH really feels about us. If you are not GLBT, and you don't understand why we feel like they don't care, maybe this comment from VJ will help make it clearer about how they really think of us.

"Lifestyle Choice"? Seriously, does the Family Research Council have a direct line to the WH? I have to wonder after this incredibly insensitive comment. It's screams ignorance, and is further proof that, realllllly, he's just gonna sing one song! :eyes:
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #286
289. a firedoglake comment ----
Teddy Partridge October 14th, 2010 at 12:22 am
223
In response to chitowner @ 221

I worry that they (white house) are ignorant as well as arrogant.

I mean, no one with any gay acquaintances says lifestyle choice any more. No one. Its outmoded, archaic. How could she go around saying that if there were any LGBT people in her circle, at the White House, around Obama?

Answer: she couldnt, and there arent any.

And that is horrifying. These people pretend to be Democrats, but they are not.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
295. Valerie Jarrett must be told
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 05:05 AM by Enthusiast
that it is not a fucking "lifestyle choice."

She should be fired for being so out of touch on the issue.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
305. She needs to fucking go
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
313. Yeah, because people are always committing suicide over lifestyle choices.
As if it were a minor inconvenience this poor kid killed himself over.

Her words show a serious lack of compassion and plethora of ignorance.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #313
323. "Bullying" is not capturing the truth of the situation ....
and is hardly as effective in the propaganda sense that the right wing's

distortion of normal human sexuality -- including homosexuality -- has been

with their "lifestyle choice" right wing propaganda!!

We need some new fight-back terms here!!

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nicky187 Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
314. Beyond disgusting.
No one should be in a position of influence who is just this damn stupid. I hope that Ms. Jarrett's "15 minutes" is over soon. Will be emailing the White House to state that exact belief, along with a link to this posting.
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
315. That phrase is owned
by bigots. Jarrett is not stupid. No one can tell me that she did/does not know how ignorant, dismissive and cruel its use is. To see it defended here is nauseating.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
316. was his suicide a lifestyle choice, too?
what a fucktard. What an absolute fucktard. I am straight. But I am appalled and disgusted that somebody would blame the gay victim of bullies for making a "lifestyle choice." Or any other bully victim, because I have been a victim of bullies for being "different." In my case, my "difference" was that the physical and mental abuse that I suffered daily at the hands of my parents and siblings left me socially awkward. I've spent the majority of my 57 years battling suicidal depression as a result. Well I guess that was my fault for making a lifestyle choice to be socially awkward after years of rejection, abuse and neglect.

What an absolute fucktard. I don't care whether gayness is genetic (and there is some evidence emerging that it is) or a result of your upbringing. I really don't care which the the "nature versus nurture" research pans out. He was a teenager being bullied for being himself...."different."

Well if there was any question about where this administration really stands, I guess Obama's dear friend and mentor just cleared that up for us all. :grr: :grr: :grr:

Fuck you, Valerie. Fuck you, you ignorant, arrogant, abusive bully.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
318. And this is the kind of people Obama has surrounded himself with -- ????
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #318
371. She's as inner circle as you get, baby.
About as close to both the President and First Lady as they come. Makes you wonder if there's even disagreement on this issue.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #371
378. That's the most tragic part. n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #371
459. Sad ... very sad, indeed ... !!
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border_town Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
326. OMG!!!! You guys are blowing this way out of proportion
Why concentrate so much on those two words and not on her actions? She is not dismissing anybody. This is why the republicans are kicking our butts. Keep it up Dems. Unreal
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #326
330. The phrase "lifestyle choice" has been used to psychologically damage a great many people.
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 07:47 AM by Occulus
The entire "ex-gay" "movement"- and all "gay conversion" "therapy"- is predicated upon homosexuality being a choice. I would go so far as to say that all religiously-based antigay discrimination requires homosexuality to be a choice in order to be "acceptable" to religious people throughout the entire country.

This is not being blown out of proportion; rather, it lies at the very core of nearly all anti-gay bigotry. It is a very big deal, and represents a monumental fuckup on the part of the Obama administration- far moreso than the DADT survey, or even Axelrod's comment that Obama doesn't believe we should be able to get married.

It is at the very core of the entire argument, and there is no way to defend it.
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border_town Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #330
334. So forget about what she is doing
The only thing that matters are those tow words???? Nothing else matters? WOW!!
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #334
343. Those two words invalidate the rest of what she has to say.
The kid she was talking about was bullied literally to death because of that very thing. HE very likely felt as though there was something irrevocably wrong with him, which goes directly back to the perception by many that being gay is a choice.

I was in his exact same position once, but I didn't kill myself. I know precisely what it feels like, and yes, it matters one who hell of a lot more than the rest what she had to say.

Those two words are at the heart of the entire matter.
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muffin1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #326
333. Oh yeah...
I keep forgetting about all of their progressive actions like using Rick Warren as a centerpiece at the inauguration, listening to advice from Donnie McClurkin, dragging their feet on DADT, and defending DOMA. Then there is the fact that Obama is against same-sex marriage because of the BIBLE. Never mind that he and Michelle ignore vast parts of the bible that are inconvenient for them.

Thanks for reminding me. We should just ignore that one of Obama's senior advisors called being gay a 'lifestyle choice'. Slip o' the tongue. Got it.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #326
336. Are you gay? n/t
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #336
441. do you really have to ask?
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #441
442. No, but it was worth asking to make a point.
If a white guy set out to lecture a room full of black people on how something they perceive to be racist really isn't because he says it isn't, people would quickly recognize the issue of privilege in that exchange, but when it comes to the homos, well, everybody's an expert.
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #326
446. You are a maroon.
Jesus, buy a fucking clue.
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VMI Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
335. Has anyone used the "its just an expression" defense yet?
:crazy:
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #335
345. Give it time.
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 08:17 AM by pecwae
It will surely appear just as "slip of the tongue' did.

eta: "a gaffe" has also made an appearance
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
337. Contact the White House
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muffin1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #337
346. Done.
I also requested a response. Of course, I've contacted them many times about similar issues, and have never gotten anything more than a stock response. I hope the are flooded with comments over the next few days.

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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #337
391. As did I.
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anachro1 Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
338. Give it up
This speaks volumes about what Obama really thinks of gays.
I think when all is said and done, Obama will turn on gay people.
I no longer trust he has our best interests at heart.
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Lucky 13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #338
415. I no longer trust he has our best interests at heart.
Your last line sums up my thoughts exactly.

I can no longer trust and wait and be patient for his administration to eventually get around to getting me my full civil rights. I can't be patient... because it's clear it's NEVER going to happen. That "patience" argument is just a way to keep us placated. To shut us up. To diminish our resolve.

Honestly, we were stupid to trust in the first place. He said he was against gays being allowed to marry.

How they respond to the judge ruling DADT will be telling. If the Justice Department appeals... the line in the sand is crossed. I never thought I'd see the day when I'd tell you the LOG CABIN REPUBLICANS are doing more to guarantee my civil rights than Democrats. But here we are. And it's fucking shameful and utterly confounding.


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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
339. FIRE her IMMEDIATELY! Despicable!
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
342. Did she really say that?
WTF????
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #342
347. Yep, she sure did.
Speaks volumns, doesn't it?
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Mad_Dem_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
348. Holy crap.
That is just disgusting. I have no other words for this.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
349. I am seriously hoping for a true progressive primary challenger to Obama in 2012.
I'm sick and tired of this DLC "Faux Populism".
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LiberalArkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #349
358. Yes... I want a real progressive instead of conservatives who know what to say.
I want someone who believes..
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #349
396. Hell, I'd settle for a true centrist.
This right-wing shit is getting old.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #396
412. Welcome back! You have been missed.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #412
414. Just popping in for a bit
Work is eating me alive right now.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #414
418. Please don't stay away... as you can see, things have not changed much.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
354. recommend
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
355. If only Obama had the spine to fire her...n/t
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
357. There are phrases that I never knew were offensive until I came to DU
After a lot of flaming, I got the point. My heart was in the right place, but my words apparently weren't. I wouldn't expect people who are not very active in online forums to know about every single offensive phrase--for instance, I learned several months ago that the word "homosexual" is even offensive (not that I use that word, I saw a thread about it and saw that the word was now off limits).

My point is, use some discretion when trying to determine who your enemy is and isn't. Well meaning people make mistakes all the time. Politely correct them! In most cases, that's all it takes! I can't tell you how many times well meaning people have offended me but I didn't go into attack mode because I knew it didn't come from a hateful place. It's better to use that moment to educate. But bringing out the pitch forks and slurs will NOT help!
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #357
360. Please. She did not fall off the turnip truck & should not need "educating"
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #357
372. I don't think this is about using the wrong word
It's the sentiment behind the phrase that's the problem. If she doesn't think being gay is something as easy to put on or take off as a "lifestyle choice", then she wouldn't have chosen that way to phrase it.

It exposed her way of thinking on this. And brought into question the sincerity of her concern for these kids.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
359. if that is how she thinks she should not be in the W.H.


shame on her
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mikesm Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
374. This is all part of a plan to blame us for the upcoming electoral disaster
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 10:10 AM by mikesm
They say and do crazy things to try and show the American people that the WH isn't "liberal". This is just one of a long line of statements makes this point, and we can expect a lot more of this in the future.

The WH has made the calculation that they cannot win in 2012 based on their campaign promises in 2008. They have to shift horses and be more like the Rethugs to stay in power because "America has spoken".

Well, if they had been competent about delivering on their promises and not competed with the Rethugs for who could sell out to Corporate america more, the people would have elected more Dems and they would not be changing their direction.

Let's face it, they still want our votes, but they won't actually deliver on anything that might cost them votes with others. Gay Rights, real health care reform (and not insurance reform), financial reform, etc... all fall into this category. Jarrett's comments will be trotted out by people in different forums to show that the WH is not "sold out to the gay lobby".

Don't kid yourself, this is part of a plan to look more like Rethugs because that's what they think will get them re-elected. Nothing is more important to them now. They will sell out any principle or campaign promise to get reelected.

I'm afraid we will just have to get used to this sort of thing. And the truth is, we don't really have another choice...
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Lucky 13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #374
419. Blaming the queers is so 10 years ago.
Though I don't doubt it will be tried again. It scares me what this administration has become.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
376. The OP title seems to suggest Jarrett blamed the victim for 'making a choice'
The facts make it clear that is not the case.

Does Jarrett have a pattern of bigotry, or is this an isolated moment of stupid?
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muffin1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #376
377. The administration has a pattern of bigotry.
If you really can't see that, then you might want to dust off those rose-colored glasses. All you have to do is read through this thread and see the hurt it - and many of their other actions - have caused the GLBTIQ community.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #377
381. Context matters, doesn't it? n/t
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #377
421. More specifically, they have a history of appealing to anti-gay bigots when they need votes
Anyone who doesn't see this as a pre-election dog whistle is kidding themselves.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #421
430. Or in preparation for the Inauguration.
That STILL rankles with me. Mr. Warren really never changed his stripes, so to speak.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:45 AM
Original message
Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
416. Does Jarrett have a pattern of bigotry, or is this an isolated moment of stupid?
Please, do tell.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
382. THAT statement came from the WHITE HOUSE!!!???? from an Obama appointee???
:puke:
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #382
395. I would think the "fucking retarded" quote would have been the first clue
They don't care about people like us. At all.
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Lucky 13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #395
423. You are right. They don't care about us. Not one little bit.
I am deeply disturbed at this administrations attitude progressives, but particularly those of us who are queer.

Did you ever think you'd see the day when you would find yourself siding with the Log Cabin Republicans more than the Obama administration... about ANYTHING??? It's kind of a mind fuck.
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ForeignSpectator Donating Member (970 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
385. And being bullied into suicide is then part of that "lifestyle" he "chose", too?
Just asking because the way it's phrased in the OP, it carries an undertone, basically saying
"he had it coming cos he made that 'lifestyle choice'"
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
394. Up next: Jarrett comments on how Jews "really like money."
And then she discusses the lack of swimming skills among the African-American community.

:eyes:
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
398. K&R. Anyone who tries to defend this crap has blood on their hands.
Bigotry has no place in the Big Tent.
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
400. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA!
If you have a problem with this, you are obviously one of the socialist, far leftist, professional left fringefreaks who should keep their nutjob opinions to themselves!

:sarcasm: (in case it's needed)
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MNBrewer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
401. Why is this woman invited to speak at HRC?
with friends like these...
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Lucky 13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #401
425. Honestly, I've been disappointed with HRC for some time now.
My issue is I see them doing less hard policy work than funding pride parades. Don't get me wrong. I love pride and all. But I'd prefer full civil rights, please.
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MNBrewer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #425
440. They're WAY too cozy with the powers that be to
be an effective agent of change. more concerned in maintaining their own status than in changing the status quo.
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Lucky 13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #440
444. Exactly, though this administration has that effect on many.
Particularly in the environmental field (of which I am a part). Many wanted real change... regarding enviro protection, energy, conservation efforts, etc, etc, etc. But every time it was pushed for the enviros were told to be patient. (Wait... this sounds familiar...)

Oh and when they would make policy changes that were definitely NOT ecofriendly and the enviros would object, they were told that they were being too idealistic and that they needed to compromise. (WAIT... this sounds familiar too!)

Environmental groups and HRC have fallen into the same trap that many democrats have. Too easily placated. Too inert. We don't have someone in the White House overtly attacking us and we are supposed to be grateful for it. Forget about having our issues actually ADVOCATED for. That would go too far... :eyes:
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #401
454. That's one reason I haven't given to HRC for many years.
They've lost their way.
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cate94 Donating Member (573 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
402. Thanks for posting this.
I wrote the WH, for what it is worth.
"Lifestyle choice"? No wonder they are more concerned with "process" than civil rights.

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wpelb Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
403. "Lifestyle choice" vs. "sexual orientation"
I have to agree with those here and elsewhere who reject the use of the term "lifestyle choice" as a synonym of "sexual orientation." I think a "lifestyle choice" is a matter of conscious decisions, specifically, whether one engages in relationships with one partner or multiple partners, with people the same age or much younger (or older), while using or not using drugs, etc. All of these lifestyle choices" can be (and are) also made by heterosexuals.

That being said, however, for someone who is bisexual to decide whether to enter into either homosexual or heterosexual relationships (or both--or neither, for that matter) may also be a "lifestyle choice."

The terms are not synonyms, but there isn't a total exclusion between them, either.
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kirby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
405. She has just apologized...
Jarrett, in an e-mail to Capehart, said that she misspoke when she described Aabergs sexual identity as a lifestyle choice.

I meant no disrespect to the LGBT community, and I apologize to any who have taken offense at my poor choice of words, Jarrett said. Sexual orientation and gender identity are not a choice, and anyone who knows me and my work over the years knows that I am a firm believer and supporter in the rights of LGBT Americans.
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VMI Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #405
409. "any who have taken offense"
:rofl:
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
410. I contacted the white house to tell them I'm offended as an American
it's disgusting how people still cannot accept people for the peoe they are. that gay or straight is not a defect... neither is being brown or white or having blue eyed or dimples. for goodness sake, the log cabin pukes just won a huge gay rights victory. what is wrong with jarrett? who says lifestyle choice. we have an administration in the highest office of the land saying gay peoe are choosing their being gay? how many more kids is she sending off a bridge? even the presidents office think they are choosing and are off and that they don't count. and shed the big liason into the community to give tolerance speeches?
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
420. What a fun loving look on Justin's face.
What a shame that his life was cut short by some bullies. This bullying has got to STOP!!! We are losing too many young people due some of their cruel peers. Whatever happened to compassion and human decency?

My condolences to his family.

RIP Justin.......

:cry:

As for Jarrett, I don't know what she meant to say, but it sure as hell came off as insensitive.

;(
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
427. Wow. She's walked it back, at least.


Sexual orientation and gender identity are not a choice, and anyone who knows me and my work over the years knows that I am a firm believer and supporter in the rights of LGBT Americans.


http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/10/14/Jarrett_Sexual_Orientation_Not_a_Choice/
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MNBrewer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #427
451. even if they make that lifestyle choice
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #451
452. She did say "not a choice." Upon reconsideration.
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HardWorkingDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
432. A big what if.......
Not too long ago someone here at DU posted a link to an essay by a lesbian and how she was offended at homosexuality being defined as "by birth." (Hell, it was such a complex essay that I can't even recall what the entire concept was about other than the overall concept being that it was more complicated than that.)

So my question would be, what if when Jarrett had been previously speaking to the parents of this young man, one of the said to her that they had always supported his "lifestyle choice" and if they said that, then it would be appropriate for her, too. Because if you read her entire answer, that is what the context of her reply seems to be relating to.

I think anyone here understands the negative connotation that the two words "lifestyle choice" bears forward, but there could be a large context that was inside of Jarrett's mind when she gave this interview.

My goodness, look at how language has changed over the years.


Instances of the demands for automatic apologies or else like what is being seen in this thread are reasons why it is so hard to talk openly about complex and controversial issues. If you say the wrong thing or say it in a way not agreed upon you then become a homophobe, a racist, a sexist, et cetera.
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Marnie Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
445. For the sake of the discussion -
let's grant it was a life style choice.

Isn't the issue that he was hounded to his death for making a life style that did NOT include bullying, insulting, battering and endless day after day after day of horribleness, toward and physically attacking other people?

And that that peaceful life style choice is used by people like Jerrett as an excuse for behavour by people who make a life style choice to bully, insult, beat, sodomize, torture and even murder others who have committed no greater social harm that a peaceful "life style?"

If this is no the voice of the WH then the WH needs to correct that misapprehension toot sweet.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
447. Maybe a "professional lifestyle chooser?" nt
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Tutankhamun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
448. "Lifestyle choice" is a RW meme. Deny that sexual orientation is biological
and it's easier to deny gay/lesbians civil rights.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
456. The talking points are her own, I'm sure. It's the way they actually think.
It's quite evident in everything they've done to LGBTs for the past two years.
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Shining Jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
460. Error: you can only recommend ...etc...
Kicked!
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