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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 05:47 PM
Original message
The Chilean rescue is not a miracle
It is the best rescuers from all over the planet converging for good. Bravo to science and cooperation among human beings.
Thank you engineers, NASA experts, miners from across the globe, rescuers, et al.

The religious wackos are gathering but they must not be allowed to claim this one - not when their dismissal of science would have led to the deaths of every miner waiting for help.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Amen! (so to speak)
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. LOL
:rofl:
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
441. i saw a rock on the ground there that looked like Mary.... next to a tater that looked like Nixon
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #441
442. GOP excited at headline "MINERS COMING OUT"..... mistook it for MINORS
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
238. i'll second that
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 10:09 AM by barbtries
amen (so to speak)!

eta shakespeare: what a piece of work is man...
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
374. Ditto
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
407. Then "Ramen" ... eom
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
485. whatever those miners think, whatever they say is fine with me.
If they say so, then good. It was a miracle. No one here who hasn't been there can say one way or the other if the miners want to feel that way. Others? Maybe. But victims and survivors are entitled to believe whatever they want to and no one can say boo.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #485
526. I'm glad they're finally out, too.
But the OP wasn't really about what the miners think.

It was about how society's various demagogues will try to spin this.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
589. Good one!!!
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm looking for Bobby Jindal to show up holding a
shovel taking credit for the rescue.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! nt
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Janice325 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
426. Ooooh, ouch and snap to doc03!
:rofl:

All joking aside, I'm glad the miners were safely rescued. I wish we could be as effective here in the United States. :-(
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dsharp88 Donating Member (178 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
451. FANTASTIC!!!!! n/t
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. Amen, malaise! n/t
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. it's a lot of hard work, dedication and a nation that truly cares about it's workers
Edited on Tue Oct-12-10 05:58 PM by spanone
one of them religious nuts just unrec'd this, don't let em put a spell on you
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Spell? Wackos, baggers or ReTHUGS??
You must be joking - they can't spell :rofl:

Here's a nice feel good link
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=101008/Chile
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extractorks Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Didn't science get them stuck underground in the first place
Wasn't it science that got them stuck underground in the first place
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. greed.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I'd say it was that bizarre unsustainable economic ideology, Capitalism.
Other bizarre unsustainable economic ideologies have caused similar trouble... or worse.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:14 PM
Original message
No, it was God- who controls every little thing that happens, right?
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
64. yup ... always seems he gets the credit, never the blame n/t
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #64
383. But that is the Pug way....destroy the country.....take credit and keep anything good that happens
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 12:31 PM by ooglymoogly
let somebody else take the blame and pay for the bad and any losses pugs incur while they pillage.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #383
469. They've seen the model...they know it works.
Have you ever noticed that mainstream religion and cults operate the same way? Fear of the outside world with the movement's own leader presented as the only protection. Be afraid...but I'll save you.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
388. Down-thread I proposed using "Godsmack" as the opposite of "miracle."
Every time a person really gets wronged, I'd like to see somebody point out that it clearly wasn't a miracle. I guess it would have to be in the form of a quote by a religious person who saw the beauty of crediting God for all His actions:

1. "Fishermen 'Godsmacked in Atlantic;' Feared Dead."
2. "14 Year-Old Prostitute 'Godsmacked' Entire Life."
3. "'Pol Pot, Godsmacker,' Subject of New Non-Fiction."
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Industry got them stuck in there n/t
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
31. It was the mine owner(s) ignoring safety protocols and the science behind them
in the name of profit that got them stuck there.
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Demstud Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
36. No
I don't think that makes much sense.
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
74. People can both cause and solve problems using science
Science is interesting like that.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #74
126. agreed, and so is beer...
to quote the great Homer (not the greek one)- "Beer- the cause of, and solution to, all of life's little problems"
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #126
158. One of my favorite philosophers.
:rofl:
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #74
217. Hm. Isn't Science limited to understanding problems?
I'd think technology and human decision making either solve or cause problems in the way you're suggesting.

In either case, according to the religious, only God can solve or cause problems. In hte interest of fairness, I'd like to see him blamed in every news story where a religious person undergoes some misfortune. "'God Really Did it This Time' Says Terminal Patient."
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
98. How'd all that gold in the basement of the Vatican get out of the ground?
Magic?
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
125. and?...
i jebus is so fucking powerful, he should have been able to prevent this. Or, is this all part of god's plan? If so, he is a fucking sadist.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
143. IF MAN HAD BEEN MEANT TO DIG, HE-A WOULDA BEEN BORN WITH SHOVELS FOR HAYUNDS!!!!
Can I Get an AAAAAA-MEN????
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intaglio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
145. Exploitation, cost cutting and callousness put them there
Science, engineering and empathy are getting them out. The evangelical minister, the baptist minister and the catholic priest have done nothing except utter some prayers.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #145
188. Ding ding
Not just utter prayers but now claim that they are the reason the people have been rescued...the definition of vultures.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
152. Nice try, but IGNORING science is what got them stuck.
Welcome to DU.

:hi:
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
193. no. But in related news, it was SCIENCE that provided you with the interwebs.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 08:48 AM by BlancheSplanchnik
FYI
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
214. no, Jesubus did it...
It was a test for them...

He engineerined everything just for this moment..the creation of the Earth, the concept of countries, different governments, and this mine..

It's been thousands of years, but everything done on this planet has been for the lead-up to this mine rescue...




These miners are the chosen ones...now bow bitch :rofl:
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
247. No. Technology made it possible to go underground...
...but they actually went for economic considerations.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
248. No, it was God. nm
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
340. Science doesn't "do" anything...
.... what we learn from the scientific investigation of things must be APPLIED. How it is applied is another matter altogether.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
466. Isn't it science that allows you to type your halfwitted stupidity? nt
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 03:43 PM by Javaman
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
484. "Science" does not mean what you think it does...
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #484
559. I think people confuse "science" with "technology." (n/t)
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
491. Science did it?
You sure about that?
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. Yet DUers can give our rescue workers in the US crap?
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. WHO???? Except police who beat the shit out of people? I am ready for links!!!
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. The house-burning-down debacle -nt-
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Demstud Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. They're not rescue workers.
Standing around and watching someone's personal property burn to the ground is not rescue work. There was no rescue attempt.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
86. I am sorry, but as a former Medic
those firefighters broke multiple codes of conduct.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
251. I think you're making shit up.
What can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. Ah, but it is a miracle.
The miracle is that human beings can work together to help each other in a spirit of compassion - and sometimes even succeed.

No magical intervention beats that.
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Yes, perfectly put. nt
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. That should be basic human nature
It is in my world
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
128. that is not a miracle...
it is the instinct for preservation of species. However, most people can override this instinct with greed and pure jack-assedness.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
253. The word "miracle" means magical intervention.
I realize some people use the term more broadly than that, but that is only because the assumption that there is divine purpose in everything is a broad assumption.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #253
419. Oh kontrare, mon frair.
The word originally had no divine meaning. It comes from the Latin verb "to wonder." The divine meaning came later, and coexists with the non-religious one, as any dictionary will tell you. I've been an atheist since the early Reagan era, and I still use the word. Granted, I usually use it in a sports context, as in "It would take a miracle for the Cowboys to make the playoffs this year," and try to avoid it in situations like the miner rescue.

The media likes the word because it makes their religious viewers all happy and atwitter, and it allows them plausible deniability from the non-believers.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Oh please ...
We all know how much atheists are "celebrated" in this country, being the MOST hated group of them all.

You can't be serious with this statement.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. No, gays are the most hated, by the same form of bigotry shown by the atheist's towards Christians
and visa versa Everybody needs somebody to hate.........
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. Wrong
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2009/09/19/research-finds-that-atheists-are-most-hated-and-distrusted-minority/
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. That's a stretch and you know it......defend your position, dig up an old study
and claim it to be emmis.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #41
62. So find a study that disproves that.
Do you have some indication that the U of Minn was flawed in this study? It's not like it was conducted by Bob's Atheist Group to Prove Atheists are Hated. It's a major research institution in the US.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Um, it was Christians that burned crosses.
Perhaps you don't want to claim the KKK, but they're yours.

And how exactly is that a strawman? You might want to use the googles before you toss around fallacies that you know nothing about. I asked you to find a study that disproved it or show that U of Minn was flawed in their methodology. How the hell is that a strawman?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #69
172. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #172
201. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #67
118. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #118
134. +1000. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #118
171. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #41
133. you made the accusation...
and in a court of law the burden of proof is on you.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #133
170. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #170
203. So people can now make any claim they want and not back it up?
I can say whatever I want and if someone asks that I support that claim I can just call it "anti-______ bigotry."

Sweet. This arguin' just got a LOT easier.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #203
237. You're just saying that because you're a stack of devils in an overcoat...
...sitting there, oozing vitriol and nethersludge, at your coal-black keyboard with a "return" key re-labeled "be damned," trying to sway the righteous with your forked, scaley tongue and agile, demon claws.

Oh, and I mean that literally. Don't even try to tell me otherwise, Mephistophe-puh-leeze. I know you're just an anti-demon-spotter bigot.






(Do I need an actual wink down here to let everybody know I'm actually supporting Goblinmonger's comment? Just in case, this is that wink - ;-D )
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #237
240. To let you know how truly evil I am
I pose not as a scientist but an English teacher. Never know where I hide!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #240
241. so as not to perpetuate a falsehood.... every science teacher kids have had taught evolution
and they were also christian.

sorry, doesnt fit in your limited scope.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #241
242. You thought they were Christian
I bet if you asked my students, they may likely tell you I am a Christian. I don't say that outloud, but I also don't say I'm an atheist--not really safe to do so.

And lighten up, Francis. We were just tossing around a little humor.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #242
249. no. people like to say as they diss whole gorups... lighten up. just humor. old and true
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 10:37 AM by seabeyond
way of perpetuating the ahte and bigotry. just humor. lighten up.

are you suggesting to me that only non christians teach evolution? that is an absurdly stupid premise, especially for a teacher. i would be concerned my kids being taught by a teacher with such a narrow view.

not a couple days ago, talking to my youngest that does have a liberal teacher, amongst a sea of republicans, went over past teachers. teachers that were clearly republican, yet able to have a balanced and respectful conversation with both sides of the debate.

i told my son, these teachers i admire the most. they teach you kids that even though they disagree, they can listen to both sides adn be openminded and respect one another.

that is as valuable a lesson to you kids as the actual academic part of the class
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #249
255. I'm not suggesting that at all.
I'm just letting you know that kid's perception of a teacher are not always correct. Many of my students would say I am a Christian. I am quite knowledgeable of the tenets and use that knowledge as we cover symbolism in literature (Beowulf, Old Man and the Sea, etc).

What most kids don't realize is that teachers are much like actors in that we have a "teacher persona" that is not how we are outside of the class. Not that we lie, but that we act differently than in "real life."

Add to that the stigma of being an atheist. Only 3 of my teaching colleagues know I am an atheist. Only about 2 students in the 20 years I have taught knew while they were my students. It would cause way too many problems if people knew. (much like politicians--do you really think that of the 500+ people holding office that only one is an atheist? that just flies in the face of statistics, for one thing).

So all I was trying to say is that you may not know that your students are being taught by atheists.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #255
264. and i have much empathy for the atheist not able to speak out. do you see one post
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 10:50 AM by seabeyond
even in my "defending" christians in this thread, one post, where i feel the need to be disrespect or bash an atheist? no

no we dont know all there is to know about the teachers in our schools. yes i know these teachers are christian. i have had conversation with every one of my kids teachers, on numerous levels (being the only democrats for a while in an aggressively rw christian coalition push) and know what i am talking about

i see them in the community and actually have conversation.

until they hit a certain age, i too participated in their school environment

and living in the house of inner-reflection, my kids are pretty good at perceiving and interacting with others in respect.

they learned in a christian private, and being the odd man out. having ot be courageous enough to express differing views (to be true to self) while being respectful to the other, even if the other was not respectful.

again

that has little to do with a thought that a christian science teacher cannot teach evolution.

now, not only will i lighten up, i will opt out.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #240
252. LOL. Teachers are the first place I look for devil-stacks.
Right after I check all the scientists. And artists.

Why check scientists and artists first? Four words - lab coats and smocks.
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freebrew Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #252
265. Steve Allen?
Smock, Smock!!!
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #265
584. Try as I might, I can't find that in context.
I mean, people everywhere type things like "Remember the Steve Allen Show? Smock! Smock!" But I can't find a clip or a transcript so that I can see what it means. How was it used?

Sincerely,
Sort of a youngster.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #133
596. This is DU, where Christian bashing is a sport, not a court of law
give me a break. You cry out that Atheists are shown more bias then Christians, yet the Atheists bash the crap out of Christians in this thread, who have yet to say a word against their beliefs.


THAT is convoluted.
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Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #32
182. Thanks for that link; an amazingly detailed study.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
116. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
131. wrong...
polls clearly show that this country would support a muslim or gay president over an atheist.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #22
191. So, atheists are bigoted toward christians the same way
gays are bigoted toward straights.

I get it.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #191
227. Brings to mind the old classic
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #22
254. Bullshit.
I can't speak for all of us, but for the most part atheists do not hate Christians. We just think Christians are wrong and are not afraid to say so.
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #254
295. And liberal Christians should be able to tell you that if
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:09 AM by Kalyke
you left it at that, fine. But when you call names and mock us, then we have the right to call you intolerant, in much the same way that fundamentalist Christians/Muslims/Jews/Whatever are intolerant of gays, feminists, people who don't believe what they do, Democrats, etc.

Not believing in God is one thing, mocking those that do is as intolerant, hateful and spiteful as those fundies who hate gays.
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #295
353. Excellent! Quote..
"Not believing in God is one thing, mocking those that do is as intolerant, hateful and spiteful as those fundies who hate gays."
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #295
355. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #355
371. parental spook in the sky. security blankie. "poor put upon Christians
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 12:17 PM by seabeyond
no mocking there.

there is a part that you or atheist dont understand nor have experienced.

no the christian would not "stop mulling around the edges, they'd be atheists too"

because of personal experience they do not believe the same as you. which in essense is being discussed yet ignored by you.

it is a matter of respect. and many on this board not only lacks respect for their fellow duers, they are showing a contemptable disrespect in this thread.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #371
401. I know. People are calling others Klan members.
Oh, wait, that's what a theist said to me.

How come you don't jump on those people? Why only the atheists?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #401
402. wtf... and what makes you think i don't, regularly. consistently. continually.
tell me. since you are clueless how i address those that project hate, why would you accuse me of not standing up for the atheist or anyone that is being unfairly bashed. why would you even put it in your post, as if you know.... i would not stand up for an atheist and his beliefs?
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #402
422. You haven't on here.
In this thread. You are virtual high-fiving your buddy that called me a Klan member for asking why they felt the U of Minn study was flawed. Why haven't you called them out? Quite a few of that person's posts have been deleted for being over the top. Yet all you have to say on this thread is aimed at the atheists. Maybe you would stand up for an atheist (who is not defined by their beliefs but lack of them, btw), but you haven't on this thread or any other thread I've been on so I am going to go with that which I have experienced regarding you.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #422
425. that isnt high fiving. that is empathy for his being hurt by the attacks.
again, you continue to project onto me what you dont know. as i say, i did not read that post. you have yet to give me info where that is on a very long thread. i cannot defend or not, something i have not read. but again, you are without any idea telling me who i am. that is always a fail. instead of telling me, you might ask.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #422
431. wrong place
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 02:06 PM by seabeyond
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #355
436. I asked earlier,
but no one has really answered my challenge. Please show me a thread started specifically for the purpose of bashing atheists. Or. I will add to it...started specifically for the purpose of mocking atheists.

We do not "reject" any Christian dogma or doctrine. We may interpret it differently from the Fundies of the right wing, but we fully embrace the Christian beliefs. We believe that each person is of value. We generally believe that Jesus was, and still is a liberal. We believe that Jesus would reject the intolerance of the right. No true Christian ever condemns anyone to torture and damnation.

But, of course, your own intolerance is to blinding for you to see that.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #295
597. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #22
270. Speak for yourself.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #22
327. As an atheist I have taken much abuse, belittlement, and general
bigotry from followers of many religions.

I've dealt little out in return and I am told daily I should chose to follow god and his rules.

Thanks for explaining so clearly how I treat followers of various religions.

If there was a god I believed in I would pray 3 times a day for it to save me from its followers.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #327
483. Show us a thread or a response
here on DU that you "should choose to follow god and his rules".
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #483
515. Life is a lot bigger than DU.
:eyes:
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #515
534. But you are posting AT DU.
And you are endorsing a thread with posts that do to Christians exactly what you have said has happened to you, even though you cannot point to anyone here who has done it to you.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #534
552. Right. I'll remember that all future discussion on DU must
remain focused only on DU and posts that happen on it.

Got it. I have been corrected and will comply in the future.

:crazy:

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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #552
553. When you are responding on a thread
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 08:44 AM by polmaven
that has deteriorated into one that has become a festival to bash other DU members simply for their own beliefs, yeah! DU members DO NOT demonize GLBT or any other groups, for that matter, .....except,that is, those of us who are people of faith.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #553
599. No proof, all they do is bash and we are the bad people here on DU
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #22
341. Yes, the Atheist's Inquisition is a good example. Oh wait, I got that backward. nm
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
490. First of all, the plural of atheist is "atheists" second, visa has nothing to do with this...
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 04:59 PM by liberation
... unless they have some sort of sponsorship for logical dissonance.

Nice attempt at having the victimizers (religious groups who hate gays) as being the victims. Good grief if there is no depth of fallacy some of the religious whacks won't lower themselves in order to defend their superstition of choice.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #490
492. are you saying that poster is a religious whack. cause skinner said there are not those religious
whacks on du so the op was not addressed to any christian on du.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #492
496. I don't like red herrings, they stink and taste foul...
Good luck with your fishing expedition though.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #496
504. "no depth of fallacy some of the religious whacks " did you call this duer a
religous whack? simple question. to as a question is not red hearing or fishing expedition. i am asking. did you call him a religious whack?
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #504
507. That is a red herring...
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:47 PM by liberation
... because you're trying to twist my argument by focusing on a portion and taking it out of context.

I did indeed call him a religious whack because he was equating the victimization and persecution of homosexuals by religious people, with the supposed prosecution of religious people by atheists. An argument which is of such fundamental fallacy, that the only types of people I could think of that could have made such argument were either an incredibly disingenuous person trying to push a very false narrative or a person operating under extreme delusion, this is a "whack." I decided to give the previous poster the benefit of the doubt and assume the least damaging of the assumptions.

Now, once again as I said before... good luck with your fishing expedition!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #507
508. he is arguing simplistically the same reasoning of hate by both sides, using the same
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:53 PM by seabeyond
manner in text
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Diamonique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Oh puhleeze!
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Pot meet kettle....
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. Yeah, religious people just can't ever catch a break!
Try to sacrifice your first born to the gods and the FEDS are all over your ass!
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. I love spiritual people...
But religious people scare the hell out of me.
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #43
160. I hear that!
Good point.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #33
135. tell me about it...
my neighbor refused to obey the sabbath, ate shellfish, wouldn't sell me his daughter, and absolutely refused to sacrifice oxen. I mentioned that he should die and the cops gave me hell about it :)
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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #135
161. OK...
...That was funny.

If I could recommend a post, yours would be the one.

Simply awesome.
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Demstud Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
40. So?
A belief is a personal choice. Nothing wrong with challenging beliefs in a non-violent method.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
42. As a recovering Fundy...
I only "skewer" hypocrites. There are extremists in ALL religions, and there are those who use their religion as a weapon. That is seriously fucked up.

I think you should rethink...
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
58. It's been a while since I used this one, but it never gets old.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #58
204. OK, I like it.
Took me a second to figure out who that was in the center, then...
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #204
313. I still don't get it - maybe because I can't figure out who is in the center.
:shrug:
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #313
351. Mia Farrow. nt
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
63. Bullshit.
Complete and absolute bullshit. Are you seriously trying to tell people that the US is tolerant of atheists? That's just laughable.
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Umbral Donating Member (969 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
92. Yeah, that's why all the halls of power are thick with atheists and agnostics.
The delusion is strong with this one.
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
130. Your brain must be more damaged than you let on.
Atheists are one of the most hated groups in America.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #130
169. Maybe among (R)s,
but not here at DU.....Here is is the other way around. Here, intolerance for religious people is overwhelming. You see a lot of religion bashing here, but I would challenge anyone to show me a single thread begun, at least in GD, for the sole purpose of dissing atheism/agnosticism. Why not put these in the forums created for that, rather than in GD?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #169
173. +1. nt
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #169
213. Nonsense. It is not intolerance for religious people - it is intolerance of
dangerous, damaging ideas held by some people who call themselves religious. You don't see 'bashing' of UU, of Quakers, of any non-hateful brand of religion. When have you ever seen a "those fucking B'Hai" threads?

If you feel someone is attacking YOU when you see a thread decrying people using their invisible sky ghost as an excuse to hate people, then perhaps you need to look at YOUR beliefs, not theirs.
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #213
315. +1
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #213
364. It is not intolerance for religious people
You forget... "Intolerance", when referring to the religious, means not agreeing wholeheartedly and completely with everything they think. Criticizing what they wear to church is religious intolerance!!! Pointing out those shoes don't go with that Sunday go-to-meeting outfit is an invitation to HELL! Religion must not be criticized in any form!

and don't you forget it!
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. miracle -noun: a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.
Yes, it is a miracle. It is a wonderful example of the human spirit.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
144. You are right--
I think the airliner making a successful crash landing in the Hudson River-- without a single fatality, either on the ground or among the passengers and crew, qualifies as a "miracle", whether there was divine intervention or not.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
330. Yes. The rescue is a miracle of science and engineering.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #330
477. I can't ignore the human spirit that employs science and engineering
to save 33 fellow creatures nor the spirit of the men who retained their sanity and will to survive such confinement.

It's a miracle on many levels. :-)
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #477
545. I agree! n/t
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
390. How nicely intellectually dishonest of you to use the 4th definition.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 12:41 PM by Goblinmonger
Here's the whole thing:

mir·a·cle   
Show IPA
–noun
1.
an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2.
such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of god.
3.
a wonder; marvel.
4.
a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.
5.
miracle play.
Use miracle in a Sentence
Origin:
1125–75; ME miracle, miracul (< OF miracle ) < L mīrāculum, equiv. to mīrā ( rī ) to wonder at + -culum -cle2
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2010.


It's kind of odd that the first and second definitions contradict your point but you left those off. Did you think nobody else had ever heard of dictionary.com?

Some people. What would your Jesus think of that?

ETA: I'm sure some will call me an evil atheist for pointing that out. Or that I'm dividing the party. Or some crap.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #390
424. How nicely intellectually dishonest of you to ignore the 4th definition.
The poster didn't say that the word never had a divine context. The poster just pointed out that the word doesn't have to have a divine context. It doesn't. Merriam Webster has the non-divine meaning as number 2. Is that better, or do we have to ignore every meaning of a word except the first one listed? I'm sure I could parse your post and find a case where you used a word in its second or lower context according to some dictionary.

And before you jump to a conclusion about my religious beliefs, google me. I've been an atheist most of my life and have not one religious bone in my body. You're not an evil atheist. You just jump to hateful conclusions based on your own demons. Ooops. I used another word that could have religious or secular connotations, didn't I? I guess "my" Jesus would not approve.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #424
434. But that clearly is not the definition that the OP is using
and, by the rank order of definition, not the meaning that most people use.

I have no demons. I look back fondly on my Catholic upbringing. My days in the seminary were very positive and still maintain friendships with my classmates who include priests, devoutly religious, and non-religious. Just making sure you aren't jumping to conclusions about why one becomes an atheist. (Projection?)
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #434
458. It IS clearly the definition others are using and that the OP is denying.
I was making no assumptions about why one becomes an atheist, only responding to the assumption in your post that the PP was religious--or the relevance of his or her religion at all.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #390
476. How can we have a conversation or a discussion when you don't even understand how LANGUAGE works?
One word can signify different things. It needn't signify ALL of the possible things to be appropriately used. Therefore, it isn't necessary to cite ALL the definitions to prove my point.

This rescue is a miracle.

If that word necessarily has a religious context to you, then that is your INDIVIDUAL problem because you willfully choose to ignore that it also has a meaning devoid of any religious context.

Your stubborn and ignorant refusal to acknowledge the secular context of the statement does not prohibit the rest of us from correctly using it.

You're not evil. You're just narrow-minded - like the opposite side of the same coin as the religious wackos.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #476
527. So let me get this straight
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 07:28 PM by Goblinmonger
You put forth the 4th definition of a word as the only definition you are offering and I present all the definitions from the same dictionary and it is I that doesn't understand language? It is I that doesn't understand words signify different things? It is important to know the rank order of the definitions to see how that dictionary feels most people use a word. I will assume that you know that about dictionaries (that's why I said you were intellectually dishonest--if you don't know that then I will substitute ignorant).

That word has a religious context according to the dictionary YOU USED. The first and second definition of the word are religious. That reflects a pretty clear indication from the writers of the dictionary that that is how it's used most of the time. Certainly there is a non-religious meaning, but it is down the line and not the most common. I'm not ignoring the secular context, I am recognizing that isn't how most people use it. Don't throw around the word "correct" when everything about how a dictionary works shows that your definition isn't the most common.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #527
539. This conversation is beyond you, I'm afraid.
You clearly don't have the foggiest notion of how discourse operates.

I wish you the best of luck.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #539
541. I'm quite clear how you think it works
1. you make a point
2. we all nod in agreement and smile at your wit and intelligence

I think I made some rather valid points to your "discourse." You choose to ignore them. If you don't want to discuss the process of writing a dictionary, fine. Don't blow this off as me not understanding "discourse."
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R. Very well said. //nt
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. K & R to the moon! nt
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
23. Miracles do happen;
they just take a dog-gone lot of work." -- Rubin Carter
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Pretty much
This is very exciting
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
44. 'the more i practice, the luckier i get'...golfer gary player
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
25. right, miracles are
turning water into wine and feeding thousands with a loaf of bread, or maybe rising from the dead.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
137. Jesus walks into a bar...
the bar tender says "What'll you have". "Oh, just a glass of water"
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #137
473. hahahahahahhahaaa
thanx I needed that.

Peace
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Yeshuah Ben Joseph Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #137
536. Keeps the bar tab low that way
Of course when I "buy" a round of water for everyone, they get mad at Me. :(
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #536
542. you make me chuckle. nt
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
26. Science and Engineering solve problems
This was a particularly challenging problem.

The 'miracle' was that the PEOPLE - scientists, engineers and workers - were able to work hard to SOLVE this problem.

No divine intervention was required here. It was all due to hard work of HUMANS.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Absolutely and for once
those with advanced technology decided to join hands with miners from everywhere and help the poor.

Looks like everyone who is anyone is in Copiapo.

I'm watching on BBC - they've been great from the beginning.
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uncommon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
28. It is a testament, however, to the ability of human beings to do the right thing, no matter
how difficult.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Beautifully stated
:applause:
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #28
138. and it is too bad...
that we all cannot do the same thing.
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uncommon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #138
168. Indeed. Of course most people will take nothing from seeing this.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
37. UGH, I hate when people call things like this a "miracle".
It is an insult to the people working on getting those folks out! :grr:
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Precisely
:hi:
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. It's also an insult to any real miracles that might happen...
I'll not hold my breath, but I can hope.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Evo Morales said it best
It is solidarity for the working man.

What a rare thing these days.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. It brings tears to my eyes...
This solidarity of which you speak!

Very rare indeed.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Would be nice if neo-liberalism and individual greed
came to a fitting end in Chile - after all Allende and Chileans were the original victims.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Wouldn't it be nice if neo-liberalism and individual greed
came to a fitting end in Chile - after all Allende and Chileans were the original victims.

By the way Obama send the miners a message a short while ago wishing them all the best.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-10/13/c_13554469.htm
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #46
139. "solidarity for the working man"...
a very rare thing indeed. Take Jimmy Hoffa- yes, he did some bad things, but he ALWAYS did what he thought was right for his guys. People like him made unions possible, and the American worker takes people like him for granted. 40 hour work week, overtime pay, safe working conditions, paid vacation every year- thank solidarity of the working man for all of that.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #139
147. 100% correct n/t
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Caliman73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #46
365. After he said that, did he kick the person he said it to in the nuts?
:rofl:
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #45
488. "real miracle" aren't those two self contradicting terms?
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #37
259. Indeed. And it cheapens morality when "doing the right thing" becomes "a miracle"
then we can more easily dismiss doing the right thing.

So in the future we can get the wonderful scenario: "Help out in a tragedy? Nah, the mine workers ordeal proved that helping people and doing the right thing actually requires a miracle, and I ain't seeing one happen here, and certainly we-the-mortal-people can't make a miracle like this happen. I'm going home."
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cbdo2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
47. Who knows? Without God they may all have been dead a few months ago.
How do you know?
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. By your logic the said ' gawd' sent those rocks
into the mine in the first place and created this entire mess.

No some mine owners decided to take chances with the lives of poor people as usual.
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cbdo2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. I didn't say anything about the disaster and God being responsible.
I'm saying that after it happened, maybe God gave them the strength to survive for 2 months in order to be rescued.

Really it's pointless to argue. You can't prove God doesn't exist any more than I can prove God does exist. That's the great thing about God though is that the idea of God means different things to different people. Without the ability to "prove" either way, then this may be a miracle or it may not be, who knows? I don't know. You don't know either.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. This thread is not about the existence of any god or gods
It is about who did the very hard work to rescue these men.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #60
156. From what I understand, the Chilean government had done an excellent job
keeping the miner's alive and as healthy as possible.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #156
195. True but others from several countries have provided
ideas, technology and equipment for the rescues. Many just showed up to help. It's wonderful when humans show our best side.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #60
598. Then why did you insist on singling out "religious wackos"????
You can't have it both ways. OH WAIT, you can........
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Daemonaquila Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #56
226. That statement is offensive.
No, the thread is not about whether gods exist or not. However, giving god (even as a "maybe") credit for the good outcome is the same variety of intellectual dishonesty as a football player saying "God was with us" when they won the game, but who doesn't blame god when they are smashed in the next game. You only get to say that god helped these miners if you also say that god abandoned the miners at Sago. The sensible approach is to leave god (whether she exists or not) out of it, and celebrate human will, compassion, and creativity.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #226
397. Amen
:hi:
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #56
368. Seems "God" never gets blamed for anything bad, but gets credit for anything good.
If there is a deity capable of "giving strength" to individuals, why would this being trap them underground in the first place?
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #56
498. So the questions that begs to be asked is why?
IF god intervened and gave them strength to survive, why would god not just prevent the accident from happening or make it so that they could easily be rescued?
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bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. So does that mean when other disasters take place killing
a large number of people, that God was on a coffee break? :shrug:
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #50
233. Nope. It means they didn't pray hard enough.
Not hard enough to sway him into changing his billion-year plan for the universe, anyway. Sure, he set all this into motion knowing that some good, decent person is going to die a hellish death in a torture room in some psychopath's basement, or that a group of nuns will get decapitated, or that entire nations will rape and maim each other, but if you just pray hard enough, he'll send an earthquake, or Geraldo or a stampede of angels to set you free.

That's what you have to believe anyway - that, just by "faith" you have more power than the next guy. That's what gets people to send televangelists money to fuel their empires or to follow the rules about when, where and with whom you can have sex.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #47
140. funny how god...
is never there to prevent disaster. But he sure is there to take credit when people bust their ass to save others. I have worked with people like this god- they are fucking worthless.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #140
208. I would imagine the rabid god-people might claim...
that every mine (or other) disaster that didn't happen was a "miracle" sent by god.

They might also claim that disasters that do happen are either "god's will" or the work of the devil, in which case, it's sort of a learning experience for the humans as they use the technology god gave them the intellect to invent in order to rescue people.


These are some of the arguments I've heard from my Fundy sister on other similar topics.

Just insane.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #47
391. So where was God In Aushwitz?
Sorry that is the damn obvious question. Killing fields anyone? The Armenian Holocaust? The American-Indian Genocide? Want me go go on? I guess they were not praying hard enough or followed the rigtt god...

No sarcasm needed, but trust me teachers hated it when I asked these questions at ten.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #391
456. Watching his cosmic plan unfold, as I understand it.
I mean, if he:

1. knows/knew everything...including each instant of evil
2. made the rules and set the universe in motion...knowing it would lead to each instant of evil

Isn't he responsible for every instance of evil, from the singular murder to genocide? Didn't he, in essence, invent or plan or ask for the Killing Fields? John Wayne Gacey? Rwanda? Or does God have a blind spot? An equally powerful anti-God? Limited power?

Every time I ask the faithful, I get the "we can't know the mind of God" hogwash.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #47
486. So god let them be trapped, so that they could be rescued.
Yeah, that makes total "sense"...
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #47
487. Dupe
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:02 PM by liberation
Dupe
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #47
493. Who knows? Maybe god put them there in the first place.
How do you know?
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
49. If God claims credit for helping them get out
then he has to take the blame for allowing them to get stuck down there in the first place.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Haven't you noticed that gods never claim anything
Men and women make the claims :D
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #51
398. But God speaks through them.
It is His divine hand, moving their mouths. Despite the fact that they have free will. Because God...uhmm...works around that..in mysteeeerious ways that you can't even begin to understand. Because He made you that way. And knew some of you wouldn't understand to the point that you would die atheists and be damned forever. So he knew that....and you still had free will. To die the way he saw and be damned. Because the Bible says so.


(did I cover all of the possible responses form the religious? ;) )
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #49
59. God is too busy making sure the Phillies win the pennant.
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Yeshuah Ben Joseph Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #59
543. Anyone but the Yankees
That's who Satan and his new friend Mr. Steinbrenner are cheering for. :)
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Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
52. "Miracle"...whatever
I don't care what/who we credit for it. Get them out...we can argue about it later.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
57. It is to those whose loved ones & friends have been stuck in that mine
of all the things to get your knickers in a twist about.

:eyes:


dg
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #57
150. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #150
154. For someone with such a rational mind, you completely missed the point
of what I was saying. And :wtf: does Lieberman have to do with the rescue of mine workers in Chile? Seriously, your response makes no fucking sense at all.

dg
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
61. i will respectfully allow people to make what they will of it. whom am i to tell them what to
believe?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. +100 ! n/t
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. This. We have enough shit to fight over. Why use
a great moment like this to batter each other?
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #61
84. +1000 n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
66. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. So do you think it is invalid to ask that the correct people get credit?
Should people just say god did a great thing when this was the effort of a great deal of talented, dedicated, and caring humans?

And the "divide" meme gets a little tiring. If I had a dollar for everytime someone on DU told me to stop talking about issues important to atheists because it is just going to divide us or give the Repubs something to talk about, I could buy myself that new Kindle I have my eye on.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. How does calling something a "miracle" take credit away from the "correct" people?
As for discussing issues important to atheists, there is an Atheists Forum on DU.

dg
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Because words have actual meanings.
And "miracle" would indicate that the source of the action is unknown. That it is godly. That isn't the case here. We pretty much know exactly who did this. No "miracle" involved.

As to the "Atheists Forum on DU"
1. It's not a forum, it's a group. That's a big distinction.
2. So anything involving atheists must be delegated to that small quadrant of the intertubes?
2(a). Kind of smacks of back of the bus.
3. If you don't want hateful atheists stinking up the place, there are several religious groups that you can go to and the great unwashed masses of atheists will be stopped from piping up there. Go ahead. Lead by example.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. only to nitpickers
and as for your whining about the atheist group, well you could say the same thing about the other groups too, but I don't see people who frequent those areas posting in GD & being as offensive as possible towards those who don't believe the exact same way as they do.

dg
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. I have been no where near as offensive as I could be.
I like the atheist group. It's great. It's not a place for a general discussion, though.

Look upthread. I was told to burn a cross because I asked someone to explain why they dismissed a study that showed atheists were the most disliked minority in the US. Oh the sweet taste of irony at bedtime.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #80
151. That's debatable nt
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #151
157. Trust me.
And take a look which messages have been deleted.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #73
88. Miracle has a sense a meaning
and it has nothing to do with what rescue workers do on a regular basis.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #88
153. So, if the person rescued &/or their family members say "It's a miracle"
they're somehow offending the rescue workers or demeaning the work they do on a daily basis? :crazy:

dg
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #153
223. If they thank god instead of thanking the people who have worked for
weeks on end getting the miners out? Definitely.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #223
239. ya. i am sure these men are such assholes they will say... hey, god did it, fuck off.
geeezus.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #223
479. This is getting re-dunk-u-lous
I can't believe people are getting so bent out of shape over someone, anyone, saying the Chilean mine rescue is a miracle. :eyes:

Ok, fine. I'm now lumping you all in the same category (Bat-shit Insane) as fundies who claim the theme song to Mr. Ed & the Harry Potter books are Satanic, and treating you accordingly.


dg
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #70
82. +1,000
Thank you

First miner arrives - his daughter is weeping
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. For a person of faith, you throw around "hate" pretty easily. n/t
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. i was talking to a god fearing christian repug this weekend who is running for st rep
i said how angry i was at his party for pushing hate. that as a christian, he had a responsibility adn obligation to stand up to the hate in his religion.

is that throwing hate around pretty easily. am i not allow to use the word as a descriptive?

or was it ok then because i was speaking to a christian about the hate in his religion?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #78
93. Calling malaise hate filled for this OP is completely over the top
even if you don't know her.
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #71
122. Right. I'm sure the OP meant to convey love in his statement.
Silly me. :sarcasm:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #122
367. You realize that there is a universe between those extremes, right?
And malaise is not a he.
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
75. And to the religious who are not whackos...
Ignore mean people who can't seem to tolerate that others think differently than they do.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #75
123. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
79. It's a miracle they stayed sane to be rescued.
Past that, it's just engineering, money, time, and effort.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. Even that is science
see NASA personnel, US Navy Personnel and a few others from OTHER countries who work with people in confined spaces.

We actually HAVE over 100 years of experience with confined space and psychology. Oh and over at least 7K of mining.
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TheBigotBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
81. The religious right would have left these people to die.
They can F off.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
83. GO Secular Humanism!!!
The belief that people working together can solve the world's problems. No supernatural input required.


Or as Pierre Simon LaPlace said to Napoleon while demonstrating an orrery (a model of the solar system), "the system does not require a God".

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
85. Of course it is not
it is a lot of work, and a lot of technology and a lot of planning. But a few (more than a few) lack any understanding of what is going on here, so of course they prefer to say... it is a higher power.

Now for the families, if they believe that there is a miracle here, I will not begrudge them that.

But a miracle.. not at all. If anything, not that I want these accidents... it is a good thing. It is bringing people together. Hell, two nations that don't like each other are together in spirit tonight.

(and as far as me, having done Rescue work, nothing like this... SALUTE) it takes some serious huevos to go down.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
87. This was also one of my early thoughts
Science has a lose-lose situation, it does "miracles" but God always gets to claim the credit.

I long for a world when that is not the case anymore.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. There are a few cases in medical care
that might qualify as a miracle since all known science don't explain it... but this one... no, not really.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. "God" claims nothing
God's nutty fan base does all the claiming
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #91
103. Yes, of course.
If it *were* "God" making the claim, well, then we'd be having a whole other discussion, lol.
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
94. Malaise, Thank you for this OP. Isn't it wonderful how the brains came
together to make this rescue happen one month earlier than predicted.

No matter what, when the real brains pool their resources and efforts, it is not a miracle it is just astounding. If that is not humane, what else is? Perhaps divine intervention also helped to keep those miners alive! Thank you God!

Am so happy that the miners are being rescued. What a wonderful night!

Thank you everyone for your hopes and prayers!
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #94
523. Unbelievable
Three miners to go. Thank you human beings - I have renewed faith in our collective spirit- solidarity forever!!
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Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
95. If someone wants to believe this is God's work...so what?
Does it affect you one way or the other so much that you feel that you must force your feelings upon others?

If the answer is "NO"...

Let it be.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. Pointing out that science and technology rescued these people is not a feeling. n/t
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Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. OK, I grant you that...But if one wants to believe it was something else...so what?
Edited on Tue Oct-12-10 11:03 PM by Contrary1
Let it be.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #99
363. I understand what you're saying. The problem is faith has been used
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 12:09 PM by EFerrari
as a political weapon on us for so long,imo. It's not really only a matter of respecting diversity any more but of being vigilant for the next way cynics will use it to degrade our society.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #363
373. and the christians on this board are the very people that stand up to those using it as a
weapon.

how did they earn that contempable disrespect exhibited on this thread?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #373
382. You're begging two questions there. n/t
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #382
384. ? begging? do clarify eferrari. what am i "begging"? nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #384
386. Iow, you've made two claims without supporting them in any way
and want to take this argue from there as if you have proven them. That is called "begging the question".
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #386
387. duer christians do not attack the hatefilled christian? duers do not stand up for atheists rights?
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 12:36 PM by seabeyond
this thread is not full of disrespect for christian duers?

ya

questions

that simple.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #387
393. This thread has made me question my belief in DU
And I think I will see ya later


Be well.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:52 PM
Original message
like i never quit talking to the fundamentalist, i wont here either.
if we stop challenging, it will become the norm. and that is too dangerous and sad.

so i will never stop challenging

and you take care of you
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #393
601. This thread is about giving credit where it is due
and I used the word wackos. I have never considered you a wacko.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #601
602. Kalyke says it all for those of us who are Christians....
I am mocked, ridiculed and called stupid because I happen to follow a faith. I've not beaten any of you. I've not bashed you for your sexuality or your gender or the coins in your pocketbook. I am not stupid. I am not childish. I do not deserve to be mocked.


I appreciate your consideration, but you have lumped me in because of my faith. And that is why I took offense. If you had simply said "religious leaders" instead of wackos, I would have wholeheartedly agreed and not posted a single reply to this thread.

I am growing tired of defending an indefensible position here.


Be well
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #387
449. When you pile supposition on supposition, you are not making your case. n/t
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #449
452. christian duers go after fundie christians. christian duers support atheists.
there is a lot of christian bashing on this thread.

see

not hard

has nothing to do with the red hearing of supposition upon supposition. just an unwillingness to acknowledge the truth because it doesnt support agenda.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #452
460. So you say. And that is my point.
It would be easier for readers to follow your thinking if you offered any evidence at all to support your claims.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #460
463. ah. so you are of a position that christian duers dont challenge fundies, or stand up for atheist?
really?

i have done it so often. so often. i am sorry that is how you see your fellow duers, but your prerogative. nothing i can do about that.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #463
468. What is this, Bad Reasoning Day at DU?
There are a number of good basic logic courses on line that might help you understand why simply repeating something does not make it true any more than attributing opinions to others makes your case.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #468
482. no, it is addressing a poster making accusations in inuendos... and leaving me clueless wtf you are
talking about

i keep getting these obscure accusations from you so i ask. it isn't like you can friggin answer any question. you just keep making comments accusing me of something without anything concrete to allow me the basic consideration of knowing where you are coming from.

wtf is going on. you tell me. instead of playing with a bunch of air, just say what you have to say.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #386
448. EFerrari - Kudos for using the phrase the right way.
I see it all the time used to mean "which leads us, naturally to the following question." My guess is that people misinterpret it as "which begs FOR the question..."
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Sugarcoated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #373
531. Thank you!
And let me just say that you rock seabeyond.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #531
550. well
you are welcome, and

thank you back atcha.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #96
146. Bingo
Science, technology and a lot of good will from people who came from many parts of the planet. :hi:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. It was hard work
not a father figure in the sky that did this. It is way over time for people to realize this.

And trust me, as a rescue worker I had to deal with this is GOD's will all the time, for the good, the bad and the very ugly.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #95
378. Here it IS acceptable for those who don't Believe to force their feelings on those that do
Are all Muslims terrorists? But according to so so many here, all Christians are terrorists, and can only be tools of the Right wing.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #95
480. because it trivializes what REALLY went on there
and it happens all too often.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #95
497. Hey, next time you do something remarkable after tedious nonstop work. I will claim credit for it.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:11 PM by liberation
So what, no?
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
100. Well said!
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
101. "Splendor in the dark, lightnin' on the draw, we'll go right through the book and break
each & every law..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA8ykjJpOE8
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
102. Maybe it is a miracle that after so many people of religion want to divide us, that all those people
who made this happen were able to come together,put their differences aside and together work to preserve and save the lives of these miners.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. No, not really
that is the nature of rescue workers.

Trust me, done a few... nothing like this... but trust me. When there is a need, people just do. Most of the time, out of sight and out of mind.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #104
272. It is nice to be reminded that there are good people in this world and that human beings are
good at heart.
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
105. Kick, two rescued, 31 to go! I will keep this kicked for Malaise! n/t
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
106. Wel duh. It's football season - God's got a lot more important things to do with his miracles.
Heck, my kid's school might win the conference!
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. Hope you and family will always be successful and will never ever
need us. You are a piece or work!

Karma has a way to turn around events, hope you know that. Enjoy your football!
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Born_A_Truman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
107. Leave it to DU to take a happy moment ...
and turn it into a f*ng flamefest.

:puke:
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. You know! Some just cannot be happy for good events. Pissing me off n/t
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #107
124. Yeah, this place has jumped the shark.
If there was anything good about the Bush years, it was that we were united.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #107
155. No kidding
Gotta watch what you say because you might offend someone.

dg
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #107
375. LOL!
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
110. MSNBC coverage
better than CNN so far!
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. BBC carrying the coverage too. It is very emotional for everybody,
minus a few!
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
112. I am the religious whacko you despise
What you describe as having happened is my very definition of a miracle, and I do claim it as divine.

Where you are terribly wrong is in thinking that all of us dismiss science. That's just crazy talk. I mean, come down to earth, loopy!
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. She does not despise you, context is important but you had to be derisive!
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. Funny. I see miracle, you see none
I get a little goofy, you get none.

Relax, it was just a joke.
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. This is serious and if you wish to be goofy, go in the lounge!
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #117
121. No. I am serious
but I can be goofy in my seriousness.

And don't ever tell me how to live my life :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #121
136. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #117
148. Not everyone gets it
Here's Mario Gomez now - quite a hero.
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #148
149. Oh I get it
I just see enough reason to be serious in life. This all makes me giddy. and I love it.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. Well you are entitled to your opinion
but having been to a few of these "miracles" I know the kind of sweat, very human sweat, it takes to pull this off.

No prayers in the world would have helped in ANY of those rescues I was present at... and neither did any prayers play a role here.

This was sheer engineering, technology and team work.

But if you want to pray, by all means do.

And no, I don't think you are a whacko. Insofar as I am concerned you have a very different world view than mine. Not opposed, not alien, just damn different.
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #114
120. thanks. We disagree on the details, but so what?.
We agree on the big picture- whatever the reason, it was a damn fine thing.

I have NO desire to convert anyone to my opinion. Nor do I pray, especially not in Jesus' name, Amen.

Spirituality is something like being in love. It isn't logical or rational at all, in the strict sense. Try to justify love. Show me where love is. Can I see it? Can you touch it? Is there any instrument that can measure it?

It's all about experience, and once you have that unique experience, like being in love, or feeling the presence of the divine, you can't deny it, regardless of whether someone tells you you're rational or not.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #120
129. Love can and has been seen in FMRI machines
certain areas of the brain do light up. So yes, it can NOW be measured.

Believe it or not, so has spirituality and politics. In fact, the same area of the brain that lights up with very religious people, lights up with very political people.

In fact, religion might have, until recently, provided a survival advantage, group identity and all that.

The problem with religion AND politics, is that at least in extreme forms both have end of the world ideologies. When we live in a place where we can make that happen, I get a little nervous. Something about prophecies that become reality and all that.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #114
495. They are entitled to their own opinion, that is for sure, but not their own FACTS.
People are further entitled to their own delusions, but they should understand that is not the same case for respect... which is earned not granted.
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #495
521. You mistakenly think I need your respect,
But your opinion about my faith doesn't matter at all. How could it?

I mean, no one likes to be treated poorly by anyone. And it does hurt when you get that scorn in DU, but only because I consider this place like a group of friends, and as such, its hard to be insulted by friends.

I don't proselytize, and therefore my expressions of personal belief shouldn't cause YOU so much aggravation. I'm free to speak my mind as long as I'm respectful of others. But if even such polite and respectful freedom of expression-in and of itself-insults your senses, then perhaps you should take up another hobby, because internet forums may not be for you.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #112
132. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #112
187. What's the word for God imperiling humans in the first place?
Because I have several news sites full of events to which I'd like to apply that label. And very few where it seems he relented and performed a miracle.

I mean, should we call it a "smite"? A "wrathfulness"? A "Godsmack"? Or Godmsack as a verb? I can see the headlines now "Girl, 6, Godsmacked by sex predator." Or "Man Godsmacked by grizzly bear." "Somalia Godsmacked by war; rape." Or should we just thank the lord for his wife-batterer-like attentions at all times without applying a label?

"Quadraplegic thanks Lord for Drunk Driver."

"Ethiopia Asks Loving Creator For Loaves, Fishes."

"AIDS Means He Loves Me, Says Sarcoma Patient."

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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #187
284. I don't know. I don't think that way
Not everything bad that happens is a punishment, not every good thing is a reward.

Maybe the word your looking for is "life"

And "life" is a miracle.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #284
360. Try it, just for a second.
If we credit God for good deeds - for rescues, for baby toes, for all things fuzzy and warm - we call them "miracles." Now, there are other things that happen, that happen in the universe he designed, all of which can be traced back to decisions he made. And some of those things are reprehensible, horriffic...even "evil."

All I'm asking is for a technical term to describe those things that God does/plans/intends that we don't like. And for news stories to attribute those things to the same cosmic hand.

I just don't understand being willing to label those things that save a human life as God-determined and to label those things that would end a human life as other-than-God-determined.
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #360
519. That's your belief imposition, not mine
again, I don't think the way you think I think. Stop telling me I do, and then chastising me for it, you are quite literally wasting your time :)
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #519
561. Whoa, there cowboy. Now, you're just making things up.
I never said you thought a particular way. I did suggest, however, that you try thinking in a particular way. Take my suggestion or don't, but please don't accuse me of doing things that are, clearly, only happening in your mind.

And I wasn't chastising you for anything before. I am now. It may help you to put the two comments side by side to see if you can tell the difference.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #112
277. I say it is a miricle in some ways. Things could have still gone terrible wrong
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 10:57 AM by wisteria
and when you have to facture in mother nature you just never know.
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #277
289. Agreed
things could have gotten worse, fast.

I feel happy that it all came out well, regardless of who gets the credit.

And BTW, if I said I give science the credit, and still see it as a miracle, would that be a contradiction?
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #277
581. Well, then, it's settled. It's a miracle. Things COULD have gone horribly wrong.
For instance, the Germans could have annexed Chile, then burn, shot or starved millions of miners. It was their abiding faith that kept something awful like that from happening. Thank God above that these miners knew how to pray.
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #581
594. Who brought in faith?
not I
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #112
474. Absolutely!
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 04:42 PM by polmaven
I am really, really sick of the bashing. DU people of faith are not the religious crazies, but there is never a distinction made by those who hate all of us so much.

The vast majority of us are pro gay rights, pro choice, pro evolution, and pro science. I have seen it stated, several years ago, on this board, the thought that God is why, science is how.
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
119. Kicking for Malaise n/t
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
127. I totally agree.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
141. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
142. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
159. Didn't Massey say...
"Those men knew the risks when they took the job." Chile obviously values their people. Awesome rescue, so well executed with discretion and compassion. Those miners are tough guys who know how to keep themselves together!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #159
163. are you suggesting our rescue people and families would turn back and let die?
what kind of post is this.

why does this thread have to pit people against people

in their own self righteousness for agenda purpose, one way or another.

the very ugly that is being scorned. such hypocrisy
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #163
176. I am for people, especially for people working together
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 08:22 AM by yellerpup
to help those who need help. I was recalling what the CEO of Massey Energy said after the failed rescue mission in one of his mines in the US. Within the past week it was posted here that a surprise inspection of his facilities uncovered huge safety violations. Nothing has changed about the way that corporation treats its workers. I am applauding the rescue efforts and the smart, compassionate way experts from all over the world anticipated how to bring the people trapped in the mine out safely. I am neither trying to pit people against people nor suggesting anything negative about rescuers in the USA. The rescuers worked their tails off trying to save lives; the CEO is the one who made the outrageous statement about "they knew what they were risking when they signed on to go into the mines." To me, his implications was--"not my fault." It was his fault and it was driven by greed and I believe that it was his interference that caused a tragic result despite the heroic efforts of the rescuers. I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make.

Edit for typo
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #176
177. you take the greedy man who owns it and gives to everyone. dismiss all those working to help
all those in pain over the loss

easily dismiss them so you can focus on a greedy SOB and then make all of us that. all the times people have come together in the u.s. to help one another. time and time and time again.

and in your self righteous arrogance you ignore all that, pretend it isnt and give all of us the greedy SOB.

classy
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #177
178. Self righteous arrogance?
I think you own that one.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #178
179. suggesting americans are not capable of helping one another? so you can
maintain your agenda.

right
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #179
181. I did not suggest anything of the sort.
You also own incoherence.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #181
183. u.s. would let their miners die... yes, you did. it is in your posts. backpedal. nt
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 08:33 AM by seabeyond
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #183
184. You are mistaken.
I'm not replying to any more of your unfounded, incoherent accusations.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #184
186. the purpose of thread specifically to bash all christians. you took it another step to bash all
americans.

mob rules....

basking in hate.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #186
192. I should probably stay out of this, but I don't see where yellerpup bashes
Americans.

A greedy and insensitive corporate CEO? Yes.

:shrug:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #192
197. " Chile obviously values their people. " as opposed to who? doesnt value
their people?
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #197
206. That's not how I read it, but thanks for clarifying what you meant
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 09:00 AM by deutsey
The poster does on to clarify in a follow-up that she had no qualms with rescue efforts at the American mine. She's pointing out the CEO's callousness.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that corporate interests often devalue human life.

(Corrected yellerpup's pronoun).
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #206
207. i think the chilean corps were equally working out of greed. so the difference? nt
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #207
210. Is there an equivalent quote about their insensitivity to the workers' safety?
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 09:02 AM by deutsey
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #206
211. he said it, he is backpedaling. poster below says the same. now
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 09:04 AM by seabeyond
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9307127

we have a thread for it. first bash the christians... now lets bash all americans.

du at its best


edit: here we go, another thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9305367&mesg_id=9305367
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #211
220. Well, again, I didn't take what yellerpup said that way (and she's not in the threads you cite?)
You're obviously seeing a lot of bashing here and on other threads. Honestly, that kind of thing irritates me too. After Katrina, though, I also think a lot of Americans are demoralized and especially after Bush (and decades of Republican reign), many more are cynical about our country's ability to overcome divisiveness.

I don't say that justifies bashing America.

I think you're misreading what yellerpup meant, that's all. Not picking a fight with you or anything.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #220
222. you think i am misreading. i get that. i dont think i am. two opposing opinions.
it happens.

peace
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #222
224. Indeed it does.
And that's how the whole dern human comedy keeps perpetuating itself across the sands of time...
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #192
205. Thank you. My point exactly.
:hi:
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #186
196. Obviously you are the one who basking in hate.
And you accuse me of hypocrisy! :rofl: I was giving an attaboy to the concerted effort to save lives. I do not 'bash all Americans."
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #196
198. " Chile obviously values their people. " so obviously who does not value their people? nt
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #186
348. The purpose of this thread is to give credit where it is due
It's as uncomplicated as that.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #348
352. the credit would and always does go where it is deserved. never seen the rescuers unappreciated
the tone of your post was a start of christian bashing and permeates thru out the whole thread.

i am sure every one of those rescued and everyone of the family members and every person across the world values the effort that went into the save.

in your heart, intellectually, do you really challenge that?
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4_TN_TITANS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
162. Just emailed a coworker in Chile
about the outstanding response by the Chilean government. Here, when mine accidents happen miners simply perish and companies walk away with no accountability and no one going to jail, everyone forgets about it, and life goes on (for the lucky ones).

Absolutely shameful.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #162
165. so, if our men were trapped, we would walk away and let them die....
self reflecting would be good about now
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #162
494. You're right. "Here, when mine accidents happen miners simply perish and companies walk away..."
I guess that's why I've NEVER seen a live broadcast from a mine site in the US where miners are trapped and rescue efforts are ongoing. Never. Nope, here, people just walk away. Uh huh.

What a bunch of happy horseshit.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
164. I think it is a miracle that people can actually work together to do the impossible
and succeed. That's a fucking miracle. That everyone got together without bickering it to death or vetoing it or standing in the way or selling themselves to do what was utterly crazy to even try doing.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #164
166. i would be a fuckin miracle if we actually had a thread embracing the good in this event without
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 07:44 AM by seabeyond
tearing someone else apart.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
167. K&R ... science can be a wonderful thing.
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Cleanelec Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
174. I'll bet it chaps the OP's ass
A lot of the miners are crossing themselves and saying a short prayer of thanks when they come out.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #174
175. hang 'em.... nt
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #174
194. Not in the least
Individuals can believe what they want - on the other hand it is really stupid for their leaders and institutions to attempt to take credit for the use of science and technology when left to most of them them neither would exist. I'd like to have you demonstrate a creationist rescue.
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Cleanelec Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #194
199. Why don't you ask the miners
Where was the technology the first 17 days they were down there with almost no food and very little water.

One thing is for sure. No God damned atheist had anything to do with their survival that first 17 days.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #199
228. They are just lucky "God" didn't let them get crushed to death.
;-)
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #199
370. No God damned atheist had anything to do with their survival that first 17 days.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 12:16 PM by AlbertCat
Neither did any god damned supernatural entity.


They sure didn't sit around waiting for Baby Jesus to come save them.
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Cleanelec Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #370
404. The miners are religious men.
I know that chaps your ass, but deal with it.
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SkyDaddy7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #199
489. Calm down...
No GOD DAMN Christian prayer saved them in the first 17 days...It can easily be explained how they survived those first 17 days. So, I do feel sorry for you if you can't accept reality & be thankful for what science does for humanity. Religion had thousands of years to produce a better life for humans & it failed. Keep praying (talking to yourself) if that is what you want to do. But don't bitch & moan when those of us who embrace reality celebrate reality!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #194
202. at what point did christian or anyone else give up using brain... for faith accomplishment only
at what point did du decide that if a person had faith they no longer valued science, education, thinking, producing, accomplishing?

because you have a small group of people in religion that rejects a mere part of science, you have given all christians (and i am assuming every other religion) the place of rejecting everything that is thinking, to feeling (faith). what kinda sense does that make. people of faith are in every part of our society successfully participating in all this. it is not all or nothing.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #194
280. "I'd like to have you demonstrate a creationist rescue."
Agreed. I'd like to suggest that the historic record of death camps and genocide against people with Judeo-Christian beliefs makes the existence of such rescues highly unlikely.

God will save a handful of miners, but not...say...a million European Jews?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #280
282. one has to be a creationist to be a christian? all of science is centered and only creationism?
are you two really promoting this concept, yet want to be viewed as "intelligent or educated" people?
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #282
297. Please don't question my education or my intelligence.
Especially in light of your...unusual grammatical style.

I agreed with the call for creationist rescues. There is nothing in my reply that said that creationism was the only form of Christianity. I'd also like to see a provable God-driven rescue of any sort. So would, I imagine, a lot of people in WWII Poland.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #297
303. you lack of knowledge suggesting creationsm is christianity is evident. as it is suggesting that
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:14 AM by seabeyond
a christian would ever suggest a person does nothing and wait for their faith to rescue. it shows the absurdity in you presentation of your christian bashing.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #303
311. I would ask that all future correspondence between us....
be written in accordance with commonly accepted grammatical constructs. While I admire your daring in venturing, John Cage -like, into newer, less conventional modes, I find it increasingly difficult to follow your thoughts.

Your cooperation in this matter will help the dialogue considerably.

Thank you.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #311
318. really, it is just the challenge on proving the statement that all christians are creationists
and all christians believe only in miracle work and christians ignore science and hard work.

your very own bigotry.

cant really stand up to the challenge can you

so much easier in mass mob of insult. generally the way bullying works.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #318
323. I'm sorry to keep doing this, but I have to ask you to please...
...follow the standard rules of English if you'd like to have a discussion. My "bigotry," as you call it, toward understandable forms of communication, is simply an effort to get you to make understandable accusations, generalizations and logical fallacies so that I can dispatch them quickly.

Thank you.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #323
326. bah hahahah. i really dont care. you dont have omnipresent of all powerful on du
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:31 AM by seabeyond
to make me post what you demand i do

fuckin lmao.

you say a bunch of stupid about christians and cant stand up to it
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #326
343. Perfect examples. Thank you. Let's have a teaching moment, shall we?
"you say a bunch of stupid about christians and cant stand up to it"

Here, you use the word "stupid" as an adjective, modifying nothing. "Stupid" should be followed by the word or concept it is modifying. Unless, of course you're purposefully toying with the language, in which case you should give us some contextual clue to let us know that you are doing it on purpose. Otherwise, how am I to know exactly what you disagree with in order to immediately (and artfully) point out how you are wrong?

"you dont have omnipresent of all powerful on du...to make me post what you demand i do"

While I appreciate the end rhyme, there are parts of this that just puzzle me. "Omnipresent of all powerful"? Wow. The problem here is that you are saying I don't have "omnipresent" - an adjective. That's like saying "You don't have dazzling." Or "you don't have fuzzy." Or "You don't have skillful."

"Sure," I imagine you saying, "but I've modified it - 'you don't have omnipresent of all powerful.'" Which is a valiant effort, but now it's just a sort of prepositional phrase modifying an adjective. Now it's like saying "You don't have massive about circumstantial." Or "You don't have miniscule under organic."

But, please, keep trying. I'd eventually like to have this discussion.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #343
347. ah, see.... you are so concerned with the dotting of the i's that i dont give a shit. so, didnt
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:52 AM by seabeyond
bother to even read your post.

you do this to NOT have a conversation on your disrespect, because you cannot defend. so you play a game.

you are as bad as the christians you demean. there is no difference between you and they.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #347
362. I don't believe you.
I think you read it.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #326
379. Boy, seabeyond! Got a chip on your shoulder?
Sorry you think mentioning Creationists makes you go all ballistic. No one has even suggested Creationism is all of Christendom, But Creationists are all yours. Christians must claim them because they aren't with any other group.

Just more hyper-sensitivity of the religious when their absurdities are pointed out.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #379
381. interesting projecting all kinds of falsehoods at me for an argument.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 12:29 PM by seabeyond
i would not even know where ot begin to correct your post. i imagine it would be a waste of time anyway. you are not about understanding another. but dissing a group of people.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
180. But it IS a miracle.
Any time God stops trying to f*** you up. I mean, there he is, several millennia into His plan to drown, bash, kidney fail, sodomize, war crime, suicide bomb, starve, terrify, or otherwise coerce you into loving Him, and rather than letting you die, He changes His infinite mind and lets you live.

It's pure, wise and just. It's love with a capital L. It's the warm, enveloping Goodness that shined from Ike Turner whenever he finally decided to take his hands off her windpipe and let Tina breathe again.

Saints be praised! God has decided, once again, not to f*** somebody up!
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kurtzapril4 Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #180
216. It was the will of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
That the miners will live to mine another day. They were touched by his noodly appendage!
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #216
221. One tentacle rescueth. The other slammeth the mine shut to begin with.
As He had planned it since time began. FSM be praised. When He's not trying to seriously eff us up.
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kurtzapril4 Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #221
472. The FSM
is a complicated being. He smiteth that which does not please him, and the rocks displeasethed(?)him, as did the miners.

He just wanted to scare them a little bit, in other words. Psych!
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #472
562. He IS the great older brother in the sky.
Who will punch you in the face, then make you tell him he's king of the universe.

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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
185. Unfortunately the OP did not stop after sentence 2.
Science is about knowing and we know that even irrational belief proves useful at times.

I wouldn't dismiss out of hand that things as irrational as faith and hope when you are under 2000 feet of rock with no way out are possibly of considerable psychological value.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #185
189. not to mention the mentality on this thread that IF you have faith, you no longer use brain.
this is one of the most ridiculous threads i have seen on attacking a group.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #189
283. It is a shame it has become such. I believe in God and miracles,
and I do not consider myself to be uninformed or stupid.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #283
291. advocating that a science teacher cannot be a christian and teach evolution. who is the uniformed
now

sad
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #189
563. By definition, "faith" means dismissing evidence for irrational belief.
When you make decisions based on "faith," you aren't using your reason. To say it another way - when the "faith" switch is on, the "brain" switch is off.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #563
566. bullshit. you then can say the same with any emotion. that just is not true. it is not one or
another.

it is to have trust, but it does not mean all switches are off. and that is the ridiculous argument you and others give to believers that is flat out wrong. yet you continue to give it to people and ignore. religion and faith was never about shtting down, but enhancing. adn using all, not a limited amount.

in religion you would not be doing your job if you shut the brain down. it is a bullshit statement. always has been, always will be and you continually saying it just shows your own lack of knowledge.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #566
567. You are absolutely incorrect. Wrong. Astoundingly, almost inconceivably so.
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 10:47 AM by urgk
"Faith" is not an emotion. Not by ANY conceivable definition.

1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

It, BY DEFINITION, means to believe anyway or to believe without knowledge. Otherwise, people would just use the word "knowledge."

The trouble we are having is many fold, but I'll try to boil it down to a few select problems:

1. Your inner dialogue doesn't match reality. That is, you are functioning within a set of circumstances that you perceive as "real," when, in fact, they only exist to you.
2. We are engaged in two completely different activities. Let me draw an anlogy: I'm running a race. That is, I'm following a particular course, guided by a particular set of rules, towards an end goal. You, on the other hand, are sort of flitting about, getting fitted for shoes, snapping photos, wandering through the park cooing at pigeons, stopping to examine a manhole, watching the clouds break apart, but pretending all the while that you're actually racing. Every once in a while, you declare victory and make a grab for the trophy, call me a cheater, swear like a sailor and then jog in place, mumbling to yourself.

This is not a discussion. Not on both sides, anyway.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #567
568. the problem is, there are experiences you are clueless and have never experienced
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 10:56 AM by seabeyond
yet you want to be the one to explain and identify them. it does not work. you have no info to share because you are clueless, because you have not experienced.

it is like the person that has not had a child, or raised a child but wants to tell a person that has.... what it is to raise a child. you can have an intellectual knowledge, but you have no experience. so as a mom, i can tell you where youa re wrong, but it is meaningless to you.

you are wrong.

the brain does not shut off.

one can have faith, a gnowledge that is meaningless to you because you have not experienced.

people, strong majority have had faith from beginning of time. and continued on with academics, science, technology, medical, and every other thinking process there is. reality shows that one can have faith and THINK at the same time. you want to give faith an all comsuming of who the person it. it is a perspective, a piece of.... nothing more

there is so much you dont have a concept of, that people dont even bother to discuss

because your MIND is shut and does no good anyway.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #568
570. Your absolute lack of reasoning floors me.
As does your inability to track through the conversation logically. I stand by what I said - we are engaged in two different activities. I'm trying to play tennis against someone who is waxing a surfboard. I'm trying to fence with somebody who's playing with a yo-yo. I'm trying to have a debate with someone who is wandering through the language, picking phrases as if they were wildflowers and presenting the whole disparate bouquet to me as if it actually means something.

Your beliefs about the meaning of the word "faith" do not override the definition. The moment a person acts out of "faith" he/she is acting outside of reason. Neither your conviction nor your constant swearing changes that. As the saying goes, you are welcome to your own opinion, but not your own facts.



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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #570
571. you are trying to argue something you have no experience with ergo no knowledge
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 11:27 AM by seabeyond
regardless of your preceived knowledge.

it is simple as that.

the best you can do is say.... havent experienced or seen, dont know wtf you are talking about. meaningless to you. and let it go. you can't go any further.

you. are. clueless.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #571
574. Oh, e.e. comments...how I love your posts for their artistry.
The format makes it more digestible, and for that I thank you. But, over all, the message stays both bizarre and unclear, yet convinced of its own unquestionable brilliance.

You and another I disagree with would be the best of friends. And the words that flew between you would flitter and twinkle in the porch light, like directionless moths, caught between two dusty bulbs.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #574
575. see.... i had faith. now you are getting it. you are that good.
:toast:
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #575
578. Speaking of writers, have you ever read the work of Paul Sheldon?
I get the distinct feeling that you would be his biggest fan.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #578
579. i dont know that i have. i LOVE reading. a book a day or day and half. love to read.
thanks for the name. i will check it out.
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OmahaBlueDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
190. The miners themselves say their faith has sustained them during the disaster
Obviously, a lot of logic and technology went into the rescue. There's been some very good luck, too.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #190
212. Science, technology and good luck....
Yep.

Totally agree.


IMO, a "miracle" would have been if God had drilled that rescue shaft and sucked the miners up to the surface all by himself.


But I guess he was too busy planning disasters to inflict on other countries that piss him off.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #212
229. +1
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #212
481. Well said...
"IMO, a "miracle" would have been if God had drilled that rescue shaft and sucked the miners up to the surface all by himself.


But I guess he was too busy planning disasters to inflict on other countries that piss him off."
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Daemonaquila Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #190
232. But faith in what?
You don't need faith in god(ess)(es) to get that psychological boost. I'm sure many believe in god. I also suspect that quite a few of them had faith in the skill and good will of their co-workers and rescuers. Hope and belief that someone will reach out a helping hand is what's going on here. No faith in the supernatural is needed for that.

We can be happy for them being rescued, and happy that they were able to hang on mentally due to hope and belief in any darned thing that aided them. We just shouldn't start thanking "god" for the brilliant efforts of the people who were responsible for saving these people.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #232
271. I think the "faith" part in a deity makes sense
even though I'm not religious.

As a former member of a 12 Step program, I didn't have a belief in God, but I did have a Higher Power.

It doesn't matter what that Higher Power is, just as long as it's a power higher than ourselves, which would logically (IMO) mean that it would also have to be a power higher than my fellow human beings.


Sometimes believing in that Power meant having to let go of any expectation at all...basically trusting that what's supposed to be, will be. That's not easy to do.

I think that as long as people believe that what will be, will be, it's not arrogant. It's when people believe that they were saved by God because they were "chosen"...well, that's highly insulting and hurtful to people whose loved ones weren't saved...like they were somehow NOT good enough.
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Daemonaquila Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #271
465. Your last paragraph is correct, but contradicts the prior.
You are totally right in how you describe the arrogance of believing that one was "chosen" over others. However, that last paragraph contradicts the idea of belief in a higher power. "What will be, will be," is not really the same as believing in a higher power. In the miners' situation, I don't think any of them would be thinking that way. They might believe that God would bless them and see them through, or they might believe that they'll be saved by friends, colleagues, and specialists, or both. But I don't believe any of them just let go of all expectations. There is nothing dissonant about considering other human beings a higher power than one's own self, particularly when those human beings are all working in a team to do what one is powerless to do for one's self.
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OmahaBlueDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #232
430. Miner Mario Sepulveda - "I reached out for God"
-snip-

They emerged looking healthier than many had expected and even clean-shaven, and at least one, Mario Sepulveda, the second to taste freedom, bounded out and thrust a fist upward like a prizefighter.

"I think I had extraordinary luck. I was with God and with the devil. And I reached out for God," he said as he awaited the air force helicopter ride to a nearby hospital where all the miners were to spend 48 hours under medical observation.

**

From "19 miners free; Chile rescue past halfway mark" AP via Yahoo News

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/lt_chile_mine_collapse
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Daemonaquila Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #430
471. Which is totally besides the point.
So what? Of course some of them believe in god. Maybe all of them do. That doesn't mean that god should be credited with squat. They held themselves together for 2 months any way the could, believing in many things from a god to the good will and skill of their rescuers. A person's means of coping is entirely a different issue than people taking the credit away from the humans who worked their tails off to save them, and calling it a "miracle."
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OmahaBlueDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #471
530. It's precisely the point.
Their faith is part of what gave them the courage to go on when everything seemed hopeless.

Yes, they had their own vast well of intrinsic strength and ability. Their faith in God played a part in their ability to harness those qualities.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #190
234. Dude, if I was trapped in a hole half a mile underground for two months...
...I'd be seeing yellow, purple-polkadotted kangaroos with Carmen Miranda hats singing the Internationale backwards. God and Jesus would be the least weird thing I was seeing.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #234
274. One question.
Would they at least sing to the tune of "Chiquita Banana"? It seems like such a waste otherwise.

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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #234
412. can i have some of what you took..please?
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #190
501. You mean, like their leader Luis Urzúa. Who will be the last one to be taken out of the mine...
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:32 PM by liberation
... and thus becoming the person who has spent the most time underground?

The one who was the elected as the leader by the miners trapped, and the one whose father was executed by the fascist and ultra-religious Pinochet dictatorship for being a directive of the Chilean Communist Party. Only to have his step father, who was a socialist labor representative, die in the "caravan of death" that the Chilean military junta subjected to many members of the Chilean left? Yeah, he sounds like a totally religious person.

Faith and hope are used too many times as synonyms when they are rather different things.

The point is that some of the miners may have been religious people, some clearly weren't. But this is a personal of human endurance and triumph over an adverse set of circumstances. IMHO attributing human achievements to an invisible entity of which intervention there is absolutely no proof of... cheapens said human achievements. When you dig a hole into the ground, many things can go wrong due to the laws of nature and the realities of our physical world. When things do go wrong, it is our understanding of those laws of nature and our physical reality which can also help humans rectify the problem. Without having to recourse to a deity and some kind of weird double plus secret devious plan...
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #501
522. Excellent post
:hi:
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
200. K&R
I agree.
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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
209. A-fucking-men
Thank you rescuers!!!
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
215. Absolutely!
And these threads bashing the US are inexcusable too!

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #215
219. bashing christians ... good. bashing u.s.,.... bad. got it. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
218. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #218
287. I consider my faith to be more than a silly superstition. Our founding fathers had faith in God. n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #287
511. That is a brash generalization
Not all of them did. Hell the Jefferson Bible should be required readiing even today.

Yes a few were, but there is a reason for the Establishment clause.

:banghead: against national creation myths, this particular one goes all the way to the Dominionist movement. But hey, that thing 'bout Pursuit of Happiness came from a pretty SECULAR and actually Lockian world viiew.
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Tommy_Carcetti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
225. Yes, anyone who is religious could not believe in science and therefore would have the miners die.
Seriously?

What a dumb OP.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #225
261. No what is dumb is even suggesting
That god had anything to do with this. It was human ingenuity, and hard work, period.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #261
266. well, arent you the oh so gracious, calling all these people that suffered "dumb". nt
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Tommy_Carcetti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #261
276. Without getting too theological, there's differing views on what might constitute a miracle.
There's the "divine intervention" view, where God is believed to directly involve Him/Her/Itself into human affairs.

But there's also the concept of "miracles of circumstance", where human and scientific involvement assists itself in a situation making a seemingly impossible or unlikely task possible. Some may call this luck, but whatever the circumstance may be, and for whatever reason, the right things happened at the right time. And the right persons involved themselves at the right time.

As for "divine intervention" view of miracles, it may be a leap of faith (pardon the pun) for someone who is both religious and believes in a scientific order of natural events to subscribe to such a viewpoint. But the "miracles of circumstance" is far more reconcilable for such a person.

And don't fool yourself. There are plenty of people who may have religious beliefs who also view the world with a scientific eye. Despite what the extremes of both sides of the debate would have you believe, they are not necessarily exclusive from one another.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #276
322. I am addressing the extremes
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:30 AM by nadinbrzezinski
But reality is that many scientists don't see a god anywhere. And those who do, far from human experience, see this god or god particle at the moment of creation... That big bang you know. That means that creator really has no time or interest in an accident on Earth. As I keep asking where was Gofd at Aushwitz? What about the Armenian Holocaust? The Killing Fields? And was he okay with the mass murder committed in his name? That's the case I want nothing to do with that God. Oh and Theologians, you know this well, really have no way to justify that for an all seeing god. Oh and free will is a nice cop-out.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #261
292. Human ingunuity created by God, faith that the hard work would pay off,
and a beautiful day in which to save the miners.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #292
316. Or was God created by man?
In his own image oh 'bout 10k years ago to replace the female goddesses of a hunting gatherer society. Again, after our own image and needs... Just saying...
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #316
380. It's funny how even the concept of God evolves in the way Darwin described.
The understanding/interpretation of God that is most likely to survive is that understanding/interpretation that can best withstand the sum of our current knowledge about the universe.

The God meme most likely to be believed and passed to the next generation survives. Which is why, like our domesticated animals, the idea of God keeps getting friendlier.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #380
389. Yep, also people start asking pesky questions
Like where was god in insert disaster or war here.

God actually is to a point a chemical reaction in the brain. But when neuroscientists point to how much like cocaine it becomes for religious radicals (insert religion here) people of faith become enraged.

Also the image of god changes by how we organize society. For hunter gatherers women were the source of life and all that, but for city dwellers not so much. Women should be domestic creatures to be seen but not heard...why God became a father figure instead of a mother figure.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #389
396. And that an all-knowing, prime mover must have *chosen* those wars...
...rather than the lesser evil of just allowing them.

I've had debates with friends and online...um...non-friends about the incompatibility of the following three facets of God:

1. Omniscient.
2. Prime Mover/Designer of Everything.
3. Loving.

To me it seems obvious that the three are incongruous, but it seems like the God adaptation that says he creates humans who are unable to understand him allows the logic to just spontaneously fail without being disproven and for the God meme to just keep plowing forward.

About the role of women, I heard from an aboriginal guide in Australia that in his culture there was a clear division of labor between men and women, but that neither was ascribed more importance. There was "women's business" and "men's business," and both were equally important. It was, for instance, women's business to know how to take fire from campsite to campsite and to deal with snakes. Young boys were taught (and we saw this in petroglyphs) if they saw a snake, to leave it alone and go get a sister, mother or aunt. They'd know what to do.

I don't know how wide-spread that was in terms of geography or culture, but it sure seems like a good idea to split a hunter gatherer culture into equally important areas of expertise.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #396
400. Book recommendation
The Chrysalis Effect...

Also hunter gatherer cultures, or those closer to them have a different way of dealing with the split. In the lMaya culture in the South of Mexico women become THE authority regarding herbs and their uses. As a medic I got to work with Doña María and one reason she taught me a few of the secrets is exactly my gender. Mind you not all, I'm Ládino after all. Mind you the syncretism of faiths is incredible, and while Christ is in the pantheon he is not that big in the pantheon. They are concerned about balance and preserving the great mother too.

Yes I lost my religion after asking those questions, why? A little hard to keep it when seeing a dead five year old. But their religion looks at a lot more balance in the world. Ours looks for control and command of the world, domination to be specific.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #400
413. I may have to read it just becasue of the 1-star review on Amazon.
"This book is therefore and insidious undermining to all belief structures involving an immutable God."

Heh.

What frightens me most about organized religion is the way it controls the "base" of Maslow's hierarchy of needs (not that I'm all that well-versed in Maslow). The Bible, for instance, tells you where, how and with whom you can have sex, what you can eat and how you can cover your body. It tells you that there is no safety, and that there is in fact damnation, in the world outside of Christianity. And then the church steps up to tell you who to marry, who to befriend, and makes itself the underlying structure for all of your social interactions.

Once a belief system controls those fundamental needs, it's no wonder a person will follow the rest of its teachings with such conviction.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #413
457. And all systems taken to the extreme have that danger n/t
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LTX Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #380
427. It's also funny, in a way, that belief in God is likely
a product of the way in which the human brain evolved, with synaptic recognitions of the juxtaposition between cause and effect giving rise to the side effects of abstract reasoning, tool making, and attributions of unknown cause to unseen powers. Almost makes one think that God had a hand in evolution.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #427
517. That is one explanation
Then thee is biochemistry. FMRI are just amazing!
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LTX Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #517
557. Biochemical and structural evolution obviously coincide with cognitive evolution,
but structural evolution is not entirely satisfactory in explaining subsequent developmental use of the evolved structures. Finlay, Darlington and Nicastro have a good 2001 article in Behavioral and Brain Sciences dealing with covariance of brain structures as the underpinning of brain evolution, but ultimately, the structural explanation can only go so far in explaining the rather remarkable cognitive variations in species. Think parrots, octopi, elephants, and great apes.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #316
445. If there was nothing to the creation of man by God, it would have been dismissed and forgotten
centuries ago, like your suggestion of female goddesses of a hunting and gathering society.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #445
514. I suggest we are on the way to do exactly that
The almost brash reaction we have seen against the emergence of this. culture is part of it. Why we are seeing many scared people rant and rave at the death of the modern religious order. Not me saying it, but observers. This started in the Enlightenment and it is just accelerating.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
230. Absolutely correct nt
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Drops_not_Dope Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
231. says you and
the Vatican.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
235. K&R nt
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gblady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
236. to quote a great scientist,
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." --A. Einstein
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #236
246. I think Einstein was referring to existence itself (as we know it) as highly improbable.
Not impossible so as to require divine intervention.
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #236
256. Which, I think is perfectly valid.
So, I look at something like this:

"The victim was beaten and sodomized (the gang claimed he broke a rule), "They put me in the middle of the chair. They asked me 'are you gay?' I was like 'nah.' They was like 'you did this?' I said 'yea.' 'You did this with the gay guy?' I was like 'yea.' That's when they started hitting me."

And I ask myself "which is it? Everything is a miracle? Or nothing is?" And the answer doesn't make me put my money in a collection plate.

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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #236
263. The result is the same.
It's like a class where every student is above average. It ignores what the word "average" means. Miracles by definition are exceptional. If everything is a miracle, then nothing is because miracles would no longer be exceptional.

Besides--and for now I am taking your word for it that Einstein actually said that--Einstein was found of religious words, but he did not mean them in their ordinary sense. When he spoke of god, he was refering to the laws of nature and not to any purposeful, personal, interventionist god. When he spoke of being religious, he meant the sense of wonder he (and Spinoza) felt when considering the vast universe. He was very clear about that when read in context. While anyone is free to redefine any word, I submit that the religious words that Einstein used do not mean what Einstein used them to mean.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
243. Why isn't this in the religion forum?
It's been NOTHING but an open flame-fest on Christians. Is this DU's official position, that it's OK to bash Christians and their beliefs? How progressive.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #243
250. i have been wondering, myself. nt
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #250
275. Seeing the recs, and seeing how people responded to religion my poll yesterday
and how fast it got sent to the Religion forum, I have no doubt in my mind now where DU as a whole stands. No doubt. And it is troubling that a group of people who CLAIM to be Liberals/Progressives can be so hating of a Belief they don't share. God forbid you make a comment about anything they think is bigoted and you are toasted, but bash God and a person's beliefs, free for all.

For shame on DU.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #275
279. "For shame on DU." it is the hypocrisy. the very thing the legitimately gripe about with christian
they are exactly doing.

exactly

and inability to recognize. or an unwillingness. which again, is the same thing the fundamentalist christian do when i talk about the hate the project and feed.

i dont even have a piece in this battle but the overwhelming urge to defend the underdog. and unlike any other t=world i have been in, on du... that is the christian.

i dont even have to stand up for the muslims, like i do for the christians.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #243
258. Applauding human ingenuity
Is far from bashing Christians, just saying, if Christians feel attacked by this perhaps they are not so sure in their faith. Bu the way this IS a different world view. But the humanist view is shall we say not approved off in the modern-day US, even though it is far more in line with founding principles.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #258
267. you make hyperbole statements then say, why do you feel attacked. oh, it is your fault
people stating that a person who has faith is incapable of believing in science, or effort or hard work or anything else but do nothing faith is

dumb
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #267
288. Calling this a miracle is hyperbole
And as I said above having been in a few "miracles" myself sorry if what I seenis very hard work from HUMANS. No divine intervention anywhere to be seen.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #288
293. and a christian does not dismiss hard work because they are christian. nor science. uninformed
people, or limited thinkers give that to christians. on this thread anyway.

doesnt make it so.... and that is hyperbole, and bashing, and disrespectful

but it is ok

because it is just one of those christians.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #293
305. As i said a small group
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:15 AM by nadinbrzezinski
Within the majority feels attacked. Nowhere in the OP was there an overt attack. In fact, and I agree with the OP misusing terms diminishes the work of humans. Now you want to beleve this is prayer and miracle, by all means do so. The secular humanists you fear are finally speaking out and calling magical thinking well magical thinking. I hate to say this, but there is a reason why many (I will not say most). Scientists arengodless atheists, and engineers trend for creation science. And truthfully it may be brain chemistry. Religion might very well be encoded in most humans...

But if you feel attacked this is really about you.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #305
309. dont tell me what i want to believe "prayer and miracle". that is not my issue and i have not
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:21 AM by seabeyond
made one reference to this. a totally bogus argument.

"secular humanists you fear ". fear? point out my fear? more fabrication for you to create your own made up story. show me at any point where you see fear. or where i am not a humanist, secular or otherwise.

blindingly ignore the bashing....

no, it isnt about me, but you tried to make it that.

what i am not into is people telling others how they are suppose to feel....
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #309
310. Read your posts
Have a good day...
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #310
321. so you fabricate, yet cant stand up to being called out on it. gotcha
talk about christians and their story telling to insulate their own beliefs.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #321
325. Read your posts again, now have a good life
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #325
328. again, you are projecting to me what i believe. but you are clueless what i believe
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:34 AM by seabeyond
and you run away from your accusations. you did exactly as those very christians you are griping about. yet, you refuse to acknowledge. which is again, what those christians do, also.

you are no better than those you point the finger at.
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Marengo Donating Member (296 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #288
565. Simply because YOU don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
"No divine intervention anywhere to be seen"

Hubris
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #258
269. Wow, you don't see it? I am SURE in my Faith, always have been
Bigots get banned here, but time after time the haters of religion get off scott free.


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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #269
294. No I don't see it.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:09 AM by nadinbrzezinski
What I see is a small group within a MAJORITY feeling attacked. And of course lashing at a minority, significant minority mind you, that does not share your world view. Perhaps there are miracles in the world, but technical matters are not, and the term is damn overused.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #294
298. lashing? because one is challenging the bash fest that is lashing at atheist?
show me where a poster battling the bash fest lashed at an atheist, challenging, demeaning their beliefs. one post

i dont have a stake in defending christianity, but i always challenge the hypocrisy
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #298
308. Challenge whatever you want
As Mahrer put it so well, it is time fer them evil secular humanists to no-longer remain silent.

This is not an attack. What atheists get subjected to by fearful rekigious people is constant. Americans are the most religious modern economy. It is no coincidence we are falling behind. Having presidential candidates deny evolution is a smidgen of a problem, and that is the problem. If you feel attacked or insulted I am not really sorry.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #308
324. and i have always felt a responsibility to stand up with atheist being attacked.
i can also recognize a thread where the christian is being attacked. not being a hypocrite, i would have to stand up for their right, as much as the atheist.

when the atheist promotes that christians do not believe in science, hard work, humanity, or tht a christian can be a science teacher and teach evolution, or that miners will thank god and not the rescue workers.... ya

gonna challenge it.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #298
405. They've been deleted
Along with some posts by atheists.

But I'll go with my favorite example from this thread. Your buddy called me a Klan member because I asked for some support for the claim they made that the U of Minn study showing atheists as the least liked minority in the US. None of the "I'm just fighting for people to not be mean bigots" group came to my aid (not that I care for me personally) but it gets a little old when you are only going after the atheists and just brush off what is said to the atheists.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #405
414. didnt read it. you didnt point out the post. only a part of top section i have not read
this is a thread of bullies. bully mentality. of late, we have had a lot of threads on bullying. this is how it progresses. there is talking respectfully of differing opinions. and them there is mocking, ridicule, name calling, ect....
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #414
423. My post #69 is still left up
where I point out that it was Christians who "burned crosses."

I'm holding my breath to see you publicly tell your buddy that stuff like that should stop. That it is mean, hateful, bigotry. Go ahead. Love to see it. I'm quite sure I'm on their ignore list by now.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #423
432. i read only 69. you use bigotry, KKK, cross burning to shame christians....
and you want me to pat you on the back. if you dont have a simple understanding that had to do with hate and bigotry using religion, but not the religion, then that shows your own inability to be open minded to the different elements in religion. that argument is as lame as giving all christians creationism.

what ever i am suppose to stand up for you, i did not see it in 69 and the post you responded to was deleted. i do not know what was said. i am not going to read a thread of pettiness.... to prove myself to you.

i am not posting to defend christianity. i have no desire, nor the ability. i have issue with blanket attacks and bashing of fellow duers with differing views than yours.

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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #432
435. My initial response is still up about the U of Minn study
Then the deleted message told me, in response to that request, to "go burn a cross" if I hated religious people so much and that my strawman was just anti-Christian bigotry.

My use of KKK and cross burning was a reminder that your buddy--in an attempt to say hateful, bigoted, and mean things--used the wrong group to condemn. It wasn't the anti-Christians that burned crossed but the Christians. I don't know how that's shaming Christians, exactly.

"i have issue with blanket attacks and bashing of fellow duers with differing views than yours." I understand this is just a wording issue, but that sentence speaks volumes to me. It is about bashing fellow DUers with views different than mine. Not those bashing me for having different views than them. I didn't expect you to read through it and call out your buddy because I know that would never happen. I've come to expect that from people.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #435
440. " your buddy". you post in a manner of attack then act innocent.
i have never respected that form of dishonest argument. still dont.

you are bashing their views. (it is not my view). they are not bashing your views. i dont get where you have the issue. but i am done here. pretty disgusted with the ugliness in this thread. the contempt of fellow duers. this basic disrespect of differing views.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #440
443. OK, you just need to stop acting like you are on a high horse.
I told you the exchange. If telling me, in response to my post #62, that I am a hateful anti-Christian and that I should just go "burn a cross" which pretty clearly calling me a Klan member isn't something you are willing to say is "ugly," then I can only see it meaning:

1. you are calling me a liar and that the deleted posts don't say what I say they say.
2. you really don't care about "ugliness" when it is applied to atheists.

Please explain the 3rd option that might exist.

I was called a Klan member. I think I get to attack at that point.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #443
444. you self gratifying interpretation of others words cant be trusted as i have watched you
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 02:42 PM by seabeyond
attribute things to me that are simply not true. wrong, to say bluntly. so how am i going to jump into a conversation you had with another, that i was not a part in, when i cannot even see what was said.... if i even wanted to participate in something like that,, which i wouldnt.

and talking high horse, well hell, a little pot and kettle going on.

you can have the last word. i am done
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #269
447. Might intolerance of atheism also be called "bigotry"?
Because it seems there are defenders of religion on this thread who have replied by cursing, making ad hominem attacks, and generally showing what I would describe as an intolerance for any belief outside of their conviction in the existence of a Judeo-Christian god.

Others have been more than polite and conversational. Which, I believe, is the only way to discuss these matters.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #447
455. point out where anyone bashed atheism.... nt
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urgk Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #455
462. Most of them have been deleted by moderators.
As they should have been.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #258
394. Well said sis
I don't know why anyone believes this thread has anything to do with religious bashing. This thread is about giving credit where it is due.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #394
395. my gosh... those that are christians have been ridiculed, mocked, had fabrications created about
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 12:56 PM by seabeyond
them and their beliefs

this thread has hurt people

and you refuse to see it? to ask innocently, why?

wow

it is a thread of bullying. the very thing we have many threads discussing. a mob of bullying.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #395
509. It can only hurt if you're claiming that
this had anything to do with gods.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #509
513. it has to do with simple disrespect of fellow posters on du that stands up for and with
the very people ridiculing and mocking them.

and the denial on this thread is grand.

i am seeing the same posters that cry out for compassion of fellow man, and the pain they feel that we are not more respectful of another, and then the total dismissal of respect for fellow du posters.

like a bash fest and the best of people are playing in the mud, be truly less than who they normally are.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #243
385. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
244. Agreed. It was Chile's Apollo 13 moment.
By thoughtfulness, effort and resourcefulness they pulled off an impossible rescue.

Any effort to credit divine intervention must first answer the question of why god allowed them to get stuck underground in the first place and why god has let so many die in mining accidents before.
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Tommy_Carcetti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #244
286. Funny that you mention Apollo 13.
Which I would wholeheartedly agree is an example of human inginuity prevailing in a potentially catastrophic situation.

Several days before the launch, pilot Ken Mattingly was grounded due a medical test indicating he tested positive for German Measles. While a personal setback for Mattingly, many people think Mattingly's grounding was a key component to the mission's ultimate success, as he was able to provide the mission control with critical information from an insider's point of view that others may not have been able to provide.

The positive test for Mattingly's German Measles ended up being an error.

But could one argue that the false positive may be considered a "miracle" to a certain extent. Not a miracle of divine intervention, but rather a miracle of circumstance that helped the ultimate success of the mission.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #286
302. I'm sure Mattingly was extremely helpful...
...and you may be right in thinking his help was critical. Still, Young, Collins and Gordon knew that command module as well as Mattingly did, as did Lovell himself who was CMP on A.VIII. Had Mattingly flown, he would have been up where the problem was and may have been as effective there. I doubt he would have prevented the explosion since that was actually a manufacturing (or rather a remanufacting) defect. The tank had been pulled from Apollo X when it was found to be defective. It was sent to the facture to be fixed and then installed in XIII. In addition to the present and past CM pilots, there were the guys who made the capsule and the back-up crew who knew as much about it.

I think the real "miracle" was that the explosion did not happen on the return trip after the LM had been used and discarded.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
245. Agreed. nt.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
257. agree
nt
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
260. Kicked&Recommended!
:kick:
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hamsterjill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
262. But faith is a very powerful thing.
Miracle or no miracle - it matters not except for the miners themselves.

Most of them, in fact, I believe ALL of them, have professed their faith in God during this time, and reliance on that faith has no doubt aided them in enduring this horrible situation for so long.

Now whether you believe in God or do not believe in God, that is your individual right. But if these men were aided by their belief system, then I'm glad that they gained strength from having that faith. And it is certainly their right to have that faith.



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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #262
268. "it matters not except for the miners themselves." screw the miners. this is about duer
christian bash.
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hamsterjill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #268
278. Yeah, so I am learning!!
n/t
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #278
281. amazing huh? first all the empathy for miner until the realization minor too is embracing their
religion.

dump the minors. fuck em

funny in an odd kinda way
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #262
285. I'm sorry to disagree, but I find that contemptible.
I'm sure some or all of the miners relied on religious faith to get through this. Any port in a storm. Had I been talking to them and they asked if if God would get them out, I would have said "yes." If they asked if the engineers and scientists knew how to get them out, again "yes." This crisis was about their survival and not anyones intellectual disagreements.

Generally, however, I find the suggestion that people ought to believe in irrational and impossible things--not because they are true--but because self-delusion is useful to be appallingly cynical. "Belief" means one accepts something as true or real. Tacitly agreeing with or encouraging irrational belief because it might be useful to that person is a kind condescension that says, you go right ahead with your quaint, backward thinking because your mind apparently needs it while mine does not.

Friends sometimes tell each other bad news and the worse the news, the better the friend who tells you. False friends offer false consolations. It is better to know the truth (which I think is actually more comforting than the fantasies of religion) and to make the best of that than to believe falsehoods. Belief in the irrational only encourages other, less benign irrational beliefs, often as a result of that same belief system. It is only because of the religious belief in divine order that people hate homosexuals as a violation of that divine order. The same with interracial marriage. It was once widely believed that god made the races and that mixing them was a kind of natural treason. Without the idea of divine purpose, the concept becomes untenable. Think of the centuries of evil that resulted from the perverse Christian doctrine of salvation through suffering.

There are all kinds of faith. Much of it is entirely justified. I have faith that my wife loves me and will do what she thinks is best for me. This is because she always has done so. Used in that sense, the word "faith" means something different than religious faith which has no basis in fact.
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hamsterjill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #285
312. I am a Christian
You wrote: "It is only because of the religious belief in divine order that people hate homosexuals as a violation of that divine order. The same with interracial marriage."

I can assure you that I don't hate homosexuals, and in fact, I was once married to someone of another race.

You can no more lump all Christians into one neat category, than you can any other group of human beings.



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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #312
317. Oh yes they can, they do it ALL the time here
and this thread has made that perfectly clear.......
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #317
331. yup. then they deny. pretend they didnt. seeing no different from this group than the christian
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:36 AM by seabeyond
i regularly argue with about exactly the same thing.

same arguments
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #331
334. If you are ANY Faith OTHER than a Christian, including non-believer here
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 11:39 AM by DainBramaged
you are treated with dignity here. But because the Right embraces a form of Christianity that is foreign to those of us who Believe, we are treated like lepers.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #334
337. yup. and btw... i am not real sure what i am. i have such a convuloted repsect for all
cant really claim one, and claim all...

so i never argue my own beliefs... too many would be clueless and not worth the challenge.

i do respect a person to live their beliefs, embracing when hurting none, challenging when hurting others.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #334
418. Yes, Muslims get a lot of respect.
So do Scientologists. And the Satanists always get a fair break, too.

You may want to climb down off that cross for a bit and see the world a little differently.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #334
500. I'm only seeing alleged Christians interjecting the word Christian here...
Not all religions are Christian... I think you are making assumptions.
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hamsterjill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #317
342. Doesn't mean that it's right!
I do see your point.

"They" have a right to their opinion, but I have just as much of a right to have MY opinion, as well. That's why they call this a discussion board. And although there are posters who post, and post and POST!!! trying to make their opinion seem the most dominant, I refuse to acquiesce. My opinion is no more important than anyone else's, but no less important either.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #342
344. Christians are bashed here relentlessly, but I never see Atheists being bashed by the Christians
on this board.


I wonder why???
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #344
357. The problem is some people don't know how to separate religious people from
religious extremist. This is why we have problems with people on the right, they paint all Muslims with the same brush. They can't comprehend that not all Muslims are terrorist. Just like not all Christians are homophobic , bigoted and intolerant.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #357
376. yes. exactly. nt
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #344
439. Because you're blind to it?
Because you do it? "burn a cross" Sound familiar?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #342
345. no more important than anyone else's, but no less important either.
the simple bottom line

respect

it is the lack of respect that is so disturbing on this thread. nobody likes to be treated with such disrespect. people will actually .... react to it. go figure.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile |