Sales of Large SUVs...REBOUNDING?!?!

[Matsubara]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/05/20/MNG2NPU9FD1.DTL

High gas cost won't drive away buyers of big SUVs
After 2-year slump, demand rebounds
Michael Taylor, Chronicle Staff Writer
Sunday, May 20, 2007

In these days of nearly $4-a-gallon gasoline, a three-ton SUV that practically requires a bank loan to fill 'er up would seem to be a tough sell.
Americans, however, are not shunning these beasts. Far from it. Auto industry figures show that after a two-year slump, sales of the gas guzzlers are up over 2006 -- in some cases, way up.
The numbers for large SUVs rose nearly 6 percent in the first quarter of 2007, and the April figures were up 25 percent from April 2006, according to automakers' statistics provided by Edmunds.com, an automotive research Web site.
The bigger the guzzler, the better the numbers. Sales of GMC's Yukon XL were up a whopping 72 percent last month, and the totals for its Chevrolet sister, the Suburban, rose 38 percent. Topping off the tank on either one can cost as much as $120.
The turnaround comes after a 24 percent drop in SUV sales from the first quarter of 2004 to the same period of 2006. One explanation for the renewed interest is that U.S. automakers are selling a more modern fleet of SUVs, some of which consume moderately less gas than their predecessors.



I don't get it for the life of me. I am a family guy with two kids. We've had a station wagon and a small van since we had them, but I have NEVER understood what the appeal of Stupid Ugly Vehicles was.

Now a van or minivan, I can understand. They are easier to drive, less wieldy, have more space, headroom enough so that kids can walk around in them, and minivans get better mileage. But even the minivans have gotten huge lately.

And now, according to the article, most of the minivan lines are being phased out in favor of new car-based SUVs.

Can someone explain to me the appeal? Is it just about being up higher than everyone else? Is it like an arms race, since everyone else in in the SUVS, if you drive a normal car, you can't see anything, so you have to get a tall vehicle too?

[durablend]

1. "Haves" and "have mores" raking in the money...

Notice they never mention WHO is buying them? I'd tend to doubt it's the working class.

[bluerum]

2. CIA, NSA, special ops, blackwater, Saudis and other assorted oil soaked

middle eastern countries?

edit sp.

[formercia]

28. Back in the 80's

people being posted to Central America were buying big SUV and Suburban type vehicles and having the windows tinted because they could sell them to the locals for big bucks and Uncle Sam would pay the shipping.
They were a favorite for the Death Squads.

Driving one of those through traffic is like Moses parting the sea of Reeds. People just fall over each other to get out of the way.

[Clark2008]

3. I have two kids, too (well, one and one on the way)

and both my husband and I seem to get by fine with mid-sized cars that get decent gas mileage.

I don't understand the need for huge vehicles in any make: SUVs or mini-vans (mini's are incredibly unsafe. I hope you have one of the safer ones!)

[rfranklin]

4. It has to do with the need to "dominate" on the road...

Notice how the car makers are designing the front ends of the SUVs to be more and more intimidating. And most of the time in my neighborhood, it's a 5'4" mom driving all alone in her monster Suburban on local shopping jaunts while tailgating, speeding and hogging the road.

[LibDemAlways]

51. Your description of the SUV driver is absolutely

dead on. However, you left out yakking on the cell phone while driving the monster one-handed. Pick-up and drop off time at my daughter's school is a nightmare because of those big pieces of shit, driven by probably 90% of the chickenheaded morons who live in the McMansion tract near me. They wield those things like weapons, leaving common courtesy and the rules of the road far behind.

[EnviroBat]

85. Yep I have noticed...

And the day one of those morons rear-ends me in my Miata, well that's the day I sue someones ass into destitution. I call it the "SUV Lottery", hopefully I won't be killed outright.

[leftchick]

90. and all while using a cell phone

I see them every day at my son's school. Bigger is better apparently. :eyes:

[RedEarth]

134. Intimidation .... I think that's one of the primary reasons people buy them

...then they can tailgate and really intimidate other drivers... I detest big SUV's(UAV's maybe a better description...urban assault vehicles) and big trucks.

[illinoisprogressive]

160. speeding?? I find they go about 10 miles under the limit holding up traffic

everyone has to pile up and go bumper to bumper to accomodate the 5'2" selfish woman driving her suv and playing queen of the road. half the time they cannot even handle to suv and have to stop to turn.
I am a woman of 5'2" and I drive a compact car. I'm not into buying stuff for the neighbors sake.

[midnight armadillo]

5. Minivans are very safe

In fact, minivans are the safest vehicle for families. They have the advantage of size over a mid-sized sedan, and unibody construction and a lower center of gravity compared with the typical SUV.

[Clark2008]

53. That's not what I've heard - I hear they're far more prone to flip over.

It's also true of SUVs, too.

It simply has to do with the higher center of gravity - physics - and not any preconceived notion on my part.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

118. They're slightly more prone to roll than cars.

Some models are less likely to roll than cars.

SUVs, on the other hand, are far more prone to rolling.

Mini-vans have a much lower center of gravity than SUVs.

[Imagevision]

6. Sales of Large SUVs...REBOUNDING? - and some people believe EVERYTHING they read...!

it will only hurt when gas hits $5.00 per gallon as the msm has already assured us to expect $4.00 per gallon by this summer.

[sellitman]

7. Big SUV.......

small weiner?

:think:

[OneBlueSky]

8. because there's no national policy on energy conservation . . .

hard to believe, I know, but there are still a substantial number of Americans who trust the government to give them accurate information and tell them the truth . . .

(or at least fool themselves into accepting what the government tells them . . . less stress on the brain, don'tcha know) . . .

"If the government says (or suggests by inaction) that there's no problem," they reason, "who are they to argue?" . . .

(or maybe that's just their rationalization for even more excessive consumption?) . . .

[baldguy]

155. Yes, the Bushies do have a national policy on energy conservation.

We're not going to do it. Our national energy policy isn't meant to help the consumer or to conserve resources - it's sole purpose is to maximize oil company profits as quickly as possible.

And it's working very well, thank you.

[Tyler Durden]

9. You have to take into account the number of units total.

If we produced say 10 million cars in the US in the year April 2006-April 2007, then a 50K plus production figure for one month amounts to about 5% of the yearly sales amortized for 12 months.

5% of the year's sales in units was for SUV's. Not exactly a flood. But this is not exactly GOOD news as these vehicles are the ones that make the most money per unit in sales for the industry.

Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.

[wakeme2008]

10. Chart does not tell the full story

During most of that time the cost of gas was going DOWN. A couple ups but then down. IMHO only when gas DOES NOT go down, will SUV hurt.

[progressoid]

26. Yep, If gas continues this trend, by April of 08, that line will be dipping again.

[Strelnikov_]

167. ..

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. For Me It Was Trunk Space, 4 Wheel Drive, Price And Looks.

Just got a brand new Trailblazer LT loaded and I love it. Got a great deal on it too. It doesn't get the best gas mileage but since I don't have that far of a commute it doesn't bother me that much. But minivans are ugly, somewhat expensive and generally don't have 4 wheel drive. Wagons are the same way, but the ones with 4 wheel drive are even more expensive. But I love my new trailblazer!

[Matsubara]

12. Not saying minivans are pretty, but SUVS are at least as ugly if not moreso.

They offer more cargo space and are easier to drive. The vast majority of large SUVs are not 4WD.

But you're within your rights to drive such a vehicle. Hard to understand the appeal though.

I remember when a status car was a Porsche or a Corvette.

Now it's something that looks only slightly different from those trucks you can see on sunday SUNDAY SUNDAY!!! AT THE CIVIC CENTER ARENA, TRUCKENSTEIN AND TRUCKULA, MUNCHING JUMPING AND DESTROYING ALL IN THEIR PATH! FIRST 2000 PEOPLE RECEIVE FREE DALE EARNHART INSIGNIA T-SHIRTS! BE THERE!


My microvan is not available in the states, but it gets incredible mileage (35-40 mpg) and I can fit TONS of stuff in there. Whatever floats your boat, though.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. Hey, To Each Their Own. I Think It's Hot.

Never found myself sayin that about a minivan. Not to mention that the majority of SUV's offer 4 wheel drive so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. As far as being easier to drive, I'd have to disagree there as well. My trailblazer drives like a car and has a better turning radius then anything else I've driven. Smooth as can be, handling's great and you'd never know it was an SUV. Like I said, I love it. Like you said though (in your own way), to each their own.

...Oh, and water floats my boat. What in the world floats yours???

[Matsubara]

21. I said most SUVS don't have 4WD. They may offer it, but most don't buy it.

What floats my boat? Blue skies, clean air, natural places unspoiled by smog and sprawl. People using transit and carpooling when possible, not driving alone, or at least driving an low-emission vehicle that doesn't waste gas when they have to drive alone.

On an individual basis, what you describe sounds harmless, even nice. But if every person on earth (or even just in the states) were to live the way you describe, it would be an evironmental catastrophe.

Maybe you're doing other things to offset your waste on the vehicles. That's how Gore rationalizes his absurdly huge home and vehicle use.

Personally, I do the best I can to live frugally. Not as much as the people who compost everything and "let it mellow when it's yellow", but we have adjusted our habits a LOT compared to the way we were brought up.

[Louis C. Phurye]

84. I wish they had the vehicles available in U.S. that they have in So.Pacific.

I was down there and the islanders all had these tiny little trucks, flatbeds, cargo and vans, but these minivans were smaller than the U.S. versions. The people that didn't have little vehicles just used moto or moped. I don't see why people can't get around in these tinier cars. A lot of the models were Japanese. Why aren't they available in the U.S.? Big Oil is the only reason I could think of. My SO and I were asking ourselves were the hell we could get a vehicle like that and ultimately figured it would be cost prohibitive to import one.

[theHandpuppet]

81. Gee I'm surprised

NOT.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

98. Cuz, Like, Ya Know, Lord Knows When I Woke Up This Morning I Arose With The First Thought

in my mind being "know what? I'm gonna try and surprise mr.handpuppet today". Now I'm going to go off in a corner and cry for having failed...

[theHandpuppet]

120. Misogynist, too

That's no surprise, either.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[devilgrrl]

152. A common trait for the SIZE challenged

but you knew that already.

[mudesi]

107. You do realize that you contribute more in greenhouse gases, right?

I know it's a tad judgmental to say such things, but it is the truth.

Despite not having a long commute, you chose an SUV because of price and because you think minivans are ugly and don't have 4 wheel drive. You are contributing more greenhouse gases than other people because of that choice.

Now if you multiply your contribution by all the other North Americans who also make the same choices, it's easy to see why we (North Americans) are the biggest polluters on the planet.

If we don't all smarten up, we won't last other 50 years. You would do better to give more valid reasons for why you bought your SUV if you don't want to get flamed.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

113. Self Delete

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

112. How Do You Know? Are You All Knowing In The Numbers Of Everyone's Greenhouse Gas Output?

Can you be certain you contribute less greenhouse gasses than I do? Really?

[mudesi]

121. Comparing apples to apples, I contribute less

Since I drive a hybrid, my greenhouse gas output per mile is less than yours. That, of course, is only comparing our vehicles, not anything else. I also recently changed all my light bulbs to the energy efficient fluorescents, and I raised my air conditioning a couple of degrees, but that's not really the point. We're talking about our choices of vehicles.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

123. Sorry, But You Simply Don't Know That.

The only thing that matters is how much do you output weekly, yearly, etc. Unless you know that to be less than I, then you have no legitimate claim of saying such.

[mudesi]

126. No

What matters is how much I minimally need to output versus how much I am outputting. If I lived in a green house that runs on solar electricity and I rode my bicycle to work every day, and all my needs were within biking and walking distance, my output would be zero. (For simplicity, ignore all the indirect outputs that come with consuming products that emit greenhouse gases via manufacturing, transport, etc...)

If I then decided to buy a car and drive, even though I don't really need to, greenhouse gases that would otherwise not have been output are now being output.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

129. That's The Oddest Logic I've Ever Seen.

Read carefully:

What matter is how much you ACTUALLY output weekly/yearly etc, ya know, like in real life. As in ACTUAL numbers, vs what I do. Since there is no way of you knowing one way or the other, you cannot possibly claim to output less. Pretty straightforward.

[mudesi]

132. You just don't get it

If you output 100 tons a year when you could be outputting 99, you are contributing one more ton of greenhouse gases than you should be. Everybody is going to pollute. It's those who pollute more than they need to that are the problem.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

135. And If You Output 500 Tons A Year, Then I Have Right To Laugh Heartily At You If You

have the hypocritical nerve to judge me. I believe it is you who is not getting it.

What you fail to understand is that technically, almost every single one of us, could survive with basically ZERO output if we REALLY wanted to or had to, so spare me your false 'need to' equation, since it is a purely subjective measure up to personal interpretation. You fail to grasp that simple notion. Who are you to declare everyone's needs? You said everybody is going to pollute, but only some pollute more than they need to. Open your eyes pal, every single goddamn one of us pollute more than we need to. Read that a few times. Attempt to grasp the reality. Then maybe you'll get what I'm sayin.

[mudesi]

139. Not true

Really? Every single one of us pollutes more than we need to? Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Maybe you pollute more than you need to, but a lot of us don't.

There is no subjectivity here. If you have a choice between two cars that meet every single one of your needs but one of them pollutes more than the other, and you choose the one that pollutes more, you are polluting more than you need to.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

144. You're Using A Computer Right Now Ain'tcha? You're Polluting More Than You Need To. Checkmate Pal.

[mudesi]

145. Checkmate (nm)

[Matsubara]

179. For all you know his electric is off the grid, from solar and wind...

Of course there was the energy and resources and pollution involved in the actual manufature of the computer, but just saying.

[gravity]

199. I believe he would have brought that up by now

[gravity]

178. That's the problem with curbing global warming in a nutshell

People only do what's convenient based on their 'needs' whatever those are. Barely anyone is willing to make real sacrifices with their lifestyle.

Hybrid cars are the perfect example, they allow you to drive the same but use less fuel, which is good, but will only do so much in stopping global warming. A real sacrifice would be turning off the AC in the summer time, which would drastically reduce emissions from all the coal power plants. I don't see too many people who are willing to do that.

I don't want to attack anyone personally, but I'm tired of the holier-than-thou attitude when it comes to global warming. We are all apart of the problem.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

181. Thank You! Finally, Someone Gets It Precisely!

You are exactly right in your premise and it was nice to see someone finally grasp this concept. It's the whole "we all live in glass houses, so it really don't matter if the rock you're throwin is a little bigger than mine, mine's still big enough to take your fuckin house down" argument, when it comes right down to it. :)

[MistressOverdone]

202. grrrrr

back away from my air conditioner....

[joe_sixpack]

205. You should have said

Everybody is going to pollute, and everybody is going to pollute more than they need to. We all do. A driver of an SUV doesn't need to be singled out as the worst of the bunch simply because an SUV is such an easy symbol of greed. Yes, it's big, shiny, loud and made of metal and everyone can point at one like the pod people in "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" or the towns people in "The Crucible" pointing fingers at those accused of witchcraft. It just seems too narrow and shallow though to think that's all there is to energy conservation. Again, I may drive an SUV, but I have a programmable thermostat, ride a bike to work now and then and keep my water heater turned down. No denying that an SUV is an inefficient user of energy. But we all choose which luxuries we can afford to enjoy, and where we'll place our emphasis and energy.

[tammywammy]

116. Sorry

We're gonna have to take away your "I'm a Progressive" card now. How dare you own an SUV. You probabaly watch Nascar too. And what exactly are you towing anyways? A boat? What a waste of gas. You're contributing to global warming and the end of the world don't you know? And trunk space, what a lame excuse. You could just rent a truck if you really need one. You should immediately get rid of the gas guzzling Trailblazer and get a Pirus. And try walking for god sake.


:sarcasm:

[mudesi]

122. Save your sarcasm for 50 years, when we're all going to die

It sounds alarmist, doesn't it? Except that it's true.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

124. ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

"It sounds alarmist, doesn't it?"

And then some...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[mudesi]

128. Ignorance is bliss

Are you unaware of the latest UN Climate Change report? If we do nothing, we're in deep trouble. Maybe it's funny to you, but it isn't to me.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

131. WE'RE ALL GONNA DIEEEEE!! WE'RE DOOMED!!!!! LESS THAN 50 YEARS LEFT OF HUMANITY!!! EVERYBODY RUN!!

:eyes:

[mudesi]

133. Checkmate (nm)

[tammywammy]

141. What I have a problem is the

implied "You're not a good enough democrat if you don't ____" insert drive a hybrid, travel only by mass transit and if that's not available, then bicycle or walk, or even why don't you just move to be closer to work.

I also like the "why don't you drive a minivan" even though they're really not that much better than a SUV.

It's the holier-than-though that chaps me.

BTW, I drive a diesel that gets between 42 & 46 mpg. And my vehicle can run on 100% biodiesel. :)

And what do you drive or do you walk or bicycle everywhere? Are you lucky enough to have mass transit?

[DarkTirade]

148. From what I've heard about biodesiel

some methods actually take more carbon out of the air during the plant growth cycle than they put back out after the biodiesel is burned. :)

[cobalt1999]

13. I have a large SUV

However, when someone can find me an alternative that can tow a large boat, seat a family of 4, and haul a couple of dogs along with camping supplies...hey, I'm all ears.

We use ours all the time for either towing or going into the woods for camping or mountain bike riding with the dogs and I'm not giving up my outdoor lifestyle.

Some people do need them.

[Matsubara]

14. You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the word "need".

You "need" it because you want to tow a boat, which is your right, but you don't truly "need" either vehicle.

We have a microvan because we want one, but we live 5 blocks from a train station and mass transit is cheap and plentiful all over Japan. We have a car because we want one and it lets us take trips to the boonies which we couldn't do on a train or bus. I would never claim that I "need" it. That's like saying you "need" an electricity-hogging clothes dryer, when everybody did just fine with clotheslines up antil about 40 years ago.

[cobalt1999]

16. If you want to be draconian, yes, I don't "need" it.

In fact, I don't "need" much of anything beyond a primitive shelter and some food. Here in Florida, I don't even "need" clothing either, I just "want" it to cover up.

The real point is, without changing my lifestyle, I need an SUV.

The issue is people who drive around in large SUV's when a smaller vehicle would fit their requirements.

[Matsubara]

19. My reason in pointing that out was not to be draconian...

...it was to illustrate the American mentality of being entitled to a lifestyle that would be considered extremely luxurious and wasteful in most of the world.


For instance, here in Japan, almost every bulb in every household is flourescent. 40% of the cars are "kei" (microcars which get 40 mpg+ gas mileage), and most people only drive on weekends. EVERYONE recycles their bath water into the clothes washing machine (they have nifty built-in pumps to do it) Everyone in every city here has been separating the recycling for at least 15 years now.

And most people don't bitch about the crimp it puts in their lifestyle. Most people actually WANT to help improve things.

But Americans? Naw, they'll fight tooth and nail to avoid using centimeters like the whole rest of the world. Conserve resources? Hell no, we Americans have a God-given right to squander 35% of the earth's reources, even though we are only 5% of the population!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. Inches Rule!!!!!! Down With Centimeters!!!!!

:patriot:

[Matsubara]

27. Yes, I'm sure the use of a medieval system of measure is the secret of America's competitiveness...

:shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. Awwwww, Your Perceived Hatred Of Americans Is Just Sooooo Cute.

:patriot:

[Matsubara]

33. I guess that makes me self-hating...

A measurement system based on increments of TEN. Who'da thunk it!?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

35. Guess So.

And who needs increments of ten? We don't go for that simple minded stuff. Long live the mile!

And as a total aside, I got a huge kick out of your profile quote. All Dems who voted for the IWR should be in prison? BWAHAHAHAHA! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Matsubara]

37. I think I said "in a just world"

In the real world, filth like Cheney and Bush will retire in comfort.

I can only hope that in hell, the demons will gouge out their eyes and play kickball with their decapitated heads each day anew.

Parhaps you admire the craven dems who voted for that atrocity. I do not.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

39. I Know You Did. I Found It Hilarious!

What I find even funnier is how you now can offer a black and white premise of you either admire them or believe they should be in prison. I mean, hellllloooooo, there's just a taddddddddddd bit of a grey area inbetween wouldn'tcha say? :rofl:

[Matsubara]

40. In the real world, yes.

I will probably end up voting for one of those craven cowards in 2008, if you want to talk about gray areas.

But these people knew very well that they were sentencing tens of thousands of innocent people to death, maiming and homelessness, and they knew damn well that every word out of Bush's mouth was a lie, so yes, they are culpable in mass murder. Maybe to a degree less than the BFEE, but still culpable.

Under no circumstances could I have ever voted for something so hideous. And the fact that I might have to vote for one of them makes me sick.

I don't find anything about mass murder to be funny. Glad you're enjoying your little laugh, though.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. Somebody! Anybody! Help Meeeeee!! I'm Getting Attacked By An Army Of Strawmen!!! Argggghhhhhh!!!

"I don't find anything about mass murder to be funny. Glad you're enjoying your little laugh, though."

[Louis C. Phurye]

91. Pointing out flaws in the American lifestyle is hating Americans?

Not being selfish and trying to improve living conditions for the whole of humanity is "America hate"? You are daft, man.

[cobalt1999]

31. You originally asked "What is the appeal of large SUV's?"

I tried to answer that.

Now, you're on an anti-American rant. Before you too high and mighty about the Japanese conversing resources, don't forget they are one of the worst rapists of the oceans. Hell, they are even whaling again. So I don't buy that they WANT to improve things.

Look, almost everyone not living a primitive existence can conserve resources better. It is a matter of personal choice and economics. I choose to take my family boating, camping, mountain biking, and hiking. That requires a large SUV.

[Matsubara]

36. In almost EVERY category, Japan consumes much less per capita.

The same goes for Europe. That's not a rant, it's just a matter of fact.

The Japanese overuse of the oceans is a problem - China is even more of a problem, and I am frank in discussing that with people here.

By the way, I comfortably take my family mountain biking, hiking and camping with our microvan. The only thing requiring SUV is the boat.



You're right that it is a matter of personal choice. Enjoy your outings.

[EnviroBat]

89. I like all of those ideas with the exception of recycling the bath water.

I tend to get a bit whiffy by the end of the day, and I don't think I'd be doing my clothes any favors by washing them in the bath water. Now if it were filterd first somehow, I think that's a great idea!

[Matsubara]

94. That's not how Japanese baths work.

First you wash up with soap and water in a tiled area near the tub - you can use a shower to rinse off and it goes down the drain, so when you get in the tub you are squeaky clean, and no soap is ever used in a Japanese bath. You just soak in the hot water - the water is deep, up to your chin. It's kinda like a jacuzzi without the bubbles. So the recycled bath water is actually fairly clean, and it's only used for the first cycle or 2 of the wash - the last rinse is always with clean tap water.

[EnviroBat]

130. Oh, I see... That sounds nice and relaxing.

Now if we as a society could just learn to take the time to relax like that, we might find ourselves a happier and more stable nation. As it is now, I think we're a nation of hopped up freaks, always on the verge of snapping.

[CrispyQ]

150. I see! People who drive SUVs when a smaller car will do are the culprits,

but you are not, because you don't want to change your life style.

I get it. ;)

Everyone wants the world to be a better place but few are willing to make sacrifices or changes in their own life to do so.

[xmas74]

72. But you have mass transit.

I'll jump in for a second.

I live in a rural area w/ no other transportation than what you provide for yourself. In the spring we have floods, in the winter we have ice storms.

I have a very small car but a few family members have SUV's. They don't drive them every day but there have been days that having one around has saved my job.

No way I could have made it to work w/ my car when the back roads were covered in mud and no way my car could have traveled over an icy highway. And I also enjoy camping with my daughter. A larger vehicle used occasionally has helped us out tremendously.

[Matsubara]

79. I don't think ANYONE is saying that nobody should drive an SUV, EVER.

But the fact that half the cars on the road are SUVs now is annoying and disturbing, because CLEARLY in most cases it is not about need, but various ego trips.

For instance, operationmind crime drives a SUV to pull around his boat and to go camping with the fam.

For that use alone, it's great.

But driving a 40 mile commute alone everyday, not so great.

But my asking if he had a more fuel-efficient way to commute just prompted feigned snores.

Obviously there are cases where an SUV makes more sense than other vehicles.

[xmas74]

83. He's a good guy here.

We both understand each other pretty well.

And with him he probably will find something more cost-effective in the long run but the first few weeks of having a new vehicle you just want to drive it everywhere. (You know, show it off-no different than a new blouse or a pair of shoes. Sounds silly but I'm just simplifying it-you want people to see your new toy.)

And in the long run they will get quite a bit of use out of it. We're both conservationists and are raising our children to appreciate nature and everything around them. (We've had quite a few discussions on here about camping, about shying away from the mass-marketing thrown at our children, etc). He'll get quite a bit of use out of that SUV and his children will learn some valuable lessons about nature in the long run.

And we don't know if he and his family are big walkers or bike riders. Maybe they walk or bike for most of their in town errands. If that's the case then the commute can be excused.

[Fierce]

15. How on earth did anyone ever do that

before SUVs?

[cobalt1999]

17. Pickup trucks

Back in the days when you could legally throw the kids back there without restraints.

[Matsubara]

22. I used to see V8 powered cars with trailer hitches a lot, too.

Not that those are so fuel-efficient. Towing power does require a lot of engine displacement, which means low mpg.

[xmas74]

78. That was the best feeling in the world

sitting in the back of the pick up, a group of kids from high school driving dirt roads and drinking cheap beers.

The good old days.

Of course I'd never do it again. I know a girl who died when the truck flipped and landed on her head.

[tammywammy]

104. My dad had a pickup truck

When I was younger to tow our boat to the lake. It had a shell over the bed. I used to sit back there on the way to and from the lake.

[Fierce]

108. FYI to all: I was being sarcastic.

SUVs are a solution to a made-up problem.

[Clark2008]

58. Here you go:

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0607_2007_gmc_acadia/

We're heading back to station-wagons, now, but with a little more pizzaz. Cross-overs. They're not SUVs or mini-vans, can seat all your family (including the four-legged ones), aren't so destructive in crashes, get better gas mileage and can tow (this one get 26 mpg on the interstate - as I suspect you're traveling when you're going to where you camp).

Check it out.

[Jed Dilligan]

59. No judgment on you, but this doesn't explain the uptick.

I don't think the number of Americans who camp, boat, and have kids/dogs has gone up in the past year, certainly not the way the sales chart does.

[slackmaster]

20. Dead Cat Bounce

:nuke:

[qdemn7]

24. WTF???? n/t

[slackmaster]

32. It's a traditional financial metaphor

To describe a moderate rise in a figure that follows a spectacular fall.

The idea is that even a dead cat will bounce if you drop it from high enough.

[qdemn7]

56. OK. n/t

[qdemn7]

23. Well let's see

Here in Texas it seems like of the non-commercial vehicles, 1/3 are SUVs, 1/3 are pickups, and the other 1/3 is everything else put together.

It seems the first thing is YES, you can see better than everyone else. (this is very important to women it seems)
Then they haul lots of crap, where you load and unload without bending over. (again women)
You can enter and exit without having to bend down or crouch. (again women)
Tons more front shoulder, hip and legroom.
Plenty of room for hauling people, seats 6 adults with no problem. (just try finding a car that doesn't have a center console these days, I mean on the lot, not special order)
They'll pull just about anything. Most SUVs I've seen has a trailer hitch.
They are BIGGER than everything else on the road so they ARE intimidating. (women like that for some reason) :evilgrin:
Now before you think I'm bashing women I asked my women co-workers this question one time, and these are the answers I got.

I own a 4 cyl. sedan, and I personally hate SUVs and pickups, but I'm a minority in Texas for that attitude.

[Clark2008]

61. I'm a woman and none of that is important to me.

You have to bend down to get out of a car? Since when?

I can see everyone just fine, thank you and I haul crap - maybe not lots, but I will have two kids and all their "equipment" and it all will fit in my Mustang just fine.

I guess if I was hauling a sports team, it might be different, but I'm not. Just one soccer player and a baby (and the baby will require more things than the soccer player - trust me).

[Liberal In Texas]

68. I have a smaller SUV.

Not the gunboat sized thing, and on the road it gets around 25-26 mpg.

Some of those things you attribute to women, apply to me (I don't consider it intimidating) and I'm a 57 year old guy and use it for my business where I have to haul a lot of electronic equipment to the jobs I have that are in different locations.

Having it ride in a climate-controlled environment and not having to stoop to load and unload is important. It's handy for hauling bags of mulch and other large heavy objects. I've used the hitch once to help haul a buddy's small airplane from one side of the metroplex to the other. So, they do have their uses.

Another thing to consider. I live where 80-90% of the jobs I take are a round trip of 15-20 miles. My gas use is probably far less than the guy with the sedan who lives in the 'burbs and does an 80 mile commute each day. Not to mention that the electricity we buy is 100% wind-powered (and we pay extra for this).

Everything is a trade-off to a certain extent, and there are reasonable and practical uses for SUVs. Just owning an SUV does not make you a wasteful intimidating polluter.

[YOY]

29. Sure as hell ain't my family

But there is no short supply of short-sighted people.

On edit: the appeal, I must admit, also stems from high visability in addition to the sheer f***ing mass of the vehicles. I've driven a huge one (not mine of course), in a major urban area, I was uncomfortable with the size of the vehicle (and I have driven full sized vans) but the visability was phenomenal for me. For the folks around me with regular sized vehicles...not so much. I realized that, very few SUV drivers don't or at least don't care about that 'little problem'.

That and the fact that sure they survive many accidents, but the regular cars they hit do not. Selfishness squared...

[grace0418]

147. I wonder, when the drivers of those super giant SUVs get into an accident

and survive, but their vehicle crushes the passengers of the other vehicle, do they just say "Phew, glad that wasn't me! Good thing I had this giant vehicle!"? Or do they actually think about the consequences of that purchase? I mean, it's painfully obvious when you go into any parking lot or drive down any side street in the Chicagoland area that most of the people who purchase these behemoths don't give a shit about whether or not anyone else can see, drive or park. But I would hope that they wouldn't be so callous as to simply be relieved that they survived a crash without ever giving a second thought to why others didn't.

And to your point about people not realizing about that little problem (or perhaps not caring), I would add that many people drive SUVs as if they were compact cars. I am constantly amazed by the maneouvers I see people trying to pull on busy streets in planet-mobiles. I don't know, again, whether they don't realize that it's a different kind of vehicle or they just don't care. But I drive our wagon differently than I drive our Civic because I know it's a bigger vehicle.

[grace0418]

34. It's funny because many of the arguments I've heard for buying an SUV are bizzare or just wrong.

It holds more...

Yesterday, I saw a guy coming out of Lowes in his giant SUV (it was one of the really big luxury models). Yet for the the "space" his planet-mobile supposedly had, the stuff he bought was sticking out both the back window and the front passenger window. My husband and I immediately commented to one another that we could've fit what he bought quite easily in our smaller, less obstructive, more fuel-efficient wagon. A wagon that we don't drive when we don't need it.


It's safer...

Well, we've all seen the reports of rollovers and other safety issues with SUVs, but the other reason I don't think they're safer is because so many people drive them like they are driving small cars. They are NOT small cars. You can't be racing around, weaving in and out of traffic (all while talking on your cell phone of course) in your giant SUV and think that you're immune. You will cause accidents. I've seen it again and again. And maybe you'll survive the accident better than that person driving the small car, but are you that heartless to suggest that it wouldn't forever change your life to know that you caused another person's death or disfiguration so you could drive a ridiculous vehicle?


It has four wheel drive...

You live in the mountains, okay. You live in very snowy areas, I get it. You live out where there is nothing but dirt road, fine. But most people do NOT need 4WD on a regular basis. Most people could get along just fine without, or with something like a Subaru. Chicago has some pretty nasty winters and we get along with a Civic most days.


It looks cool...

Well, that's subjective of course, but if you're really that concerned about what other people think you should probably know that an awful lot of people don't think it looks cool at all. They think it looks like you are wasteful, really worried about status, and rather selfish. Range Rovers are the ultimate in conspicuous consumption IMHO because by any consumer review guidelines they are terrible vehicles, yet plenty of yuppy moms just have to have them. And don't even get me started on Hummers.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. That Ain't Up To You To Decide Really.

Ain't up to you to declare whether someone else does or doesn't need 4 wheel drive. And maybe you buy things because you care what others think, but not everyone does. See, I love the look of my trailblazer because I love it, not because I think Joe noselifter down the street's gonna love it. And as far as that guy in Lowes goes, are you so narrow minded to think that's the only thing he's ever gonna use his SUV for? Do you know if he has to tow heavy loads? Do you know his lifestyle? Do you know, like, ANYTHING about him? Yet you can judge him and declare a wagon should be fine for him (in your own way)? That's a bit arrogant and presumptive, no? Hell, for all you know he only drives it on the weekends or only for Lowes trips. Can you have any idea otherwise? Oh, you couldn't?

In the end of it all though, there's only one real reason that matters when it comes down to it and that's simply because the person wanted it. You can judge people for their decisions all you want, but at the end of the day everyone has an equal right to make their own choices based on their own preferences, and you're not better than they are nor are they better than you, for it.

He bought his SUV cause he wanted to. Same reason you bought your wagon.

[SteelPenguin]

41. How about being environmentally concious

That's what this whole thing is about, isn't it? These SUV's are a major problem for our environment and there ARE plenty of people driving them who don't need it.

"But consumers' off-road-use data can be skewed somewhat, depending on the definition of "off-road." Auto industry researcher AutoPacific Inc. of Santa Ana, Calif., found 13.4% of sport-utility drivers said they "go off-roading for recreation" and another 21.7% use their vehicle "to get to off-road camping, fishing and hiking sites."

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4021178

A 1996 survey conducted by J.D. Power and Associates found that 56% of all sport-utility vehicles never even leave the pavement and only 5% go off-road with any regularity.

With some brands like Land Rover that number drops even further.

The fact is that plenty of people have them that don't need them. Heck I know a number of em. They're part of the problem. The world is changing and we have to change or bad shit is gonna hit the fan. Having a Jeep Cherokee just to haul your one kid to daycare then drive to work and back is wastefull and add all those people up, it's starting to affect the price of food for me and mine.

Sure. If you want you have the right to go out and buy 20 gallons of gas a day and burn it in a drum on your land (given the right zoning). Does that mean you should? Does that mean 50,000 people should? For a majority of people, driving their SUV's is wastefull, hurts our environment more than necessary, isn't safe for them their passengers or people in nearby cars, and more. At what point does it stop being someone's personal choice and at what point do we as a society say enough is enough?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

46. Ain't A One Of Us That Ain't Wasteful If Put Under The Microscope Pal. Not You, Not Me, Not The

others, not any of us.

That's all there is to say; really.

[SteelPenguin]

52. Of course we are, but that's no argument

"We're all wastefull." is a true statement, but it's also a dodge. Not installing fluorescent lightbulbs throughout your house is different from making daily 300-400 mile trips in your SUV for sales calls because you think it 'looks hot'.

We all need to be looking to be less wastefull, and seeing ways we can improve our homes, our neigborhoods, our towns, country, and planet. Not shrugging our shoulders and saying Meh, we're all wastefull, what'cha gonna do. What kind of attitude is that?

[grace0418]

69. So because we don't or can't live without being wasteful in some way, then we should

give up and go completely overboard? Shouldn't we be at least trying to be less wasteful whenever possible?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. I Didn't Say Otherwise.

We all should do what we can. The problem is who gets to draw the imaginary line of where 'doing enough' is? Some want to harshly judge others for some of their environmental choices when they themselves are guilty in other ways as well. It's called hypocrisy. It's the whole tone of judging someone as if they are beneath them that I find ridiculous. Suggestions are one thing, noselifting judgments are another.

My point of all of us being guilty is that you nor I can define the line of what doing enough is. You seem to want to pass judgment on SUV owners as if they are horrible people, because you feel they've crossed that imaginary line of 'not doing enough' that you've created. But since that is an objective line, and many could easily feel that you are not doing enough yourself, then there arises an inherent problem of hypocrisy when judging someone else for their choices when you should be concerned with your own. That's all I'm sayin.

[Matsubara]

86. Nobody accused you of anything...

...until you started making the silly claim that you NEED a large SUV to drag around your boat.


"But since that is an objective line, and many could easily feel that you are not doing enough yourself, then there arises an inherent problem of hypocrisy when judging someone else for their choices when you should be concerned with your own. That's all I'm sayin."

Actually, it's a subjective line, Criticizing individuals for environmental choices does entail the risk of hypocrisy, yeah. But some choices are so ridiculous they deserve to be pointed out. Maybe you're some kind of libertarian and you think everything boils down to individual choices. But I live in a society, and where your choices affect the rest of us, I have a right to say something about it. If you had little home brewery that was spilling toxic byproducts into the stream that led to the town water supply, I wouldn't be "noselifting" or hypocritical for pointing it out. The SUV's not as cut-and-dried, but the fact is that they do waste and pollute more, and we all have to live with the consequences of that. It's not just you.



Oh, and then there was the bit where, apropos of nothing, you decided to ridicule my sigline - but no, you're not here to antagonize or anything. :sarcasm:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

88. ...

:boring:

[grace0418]

87. People have the right to buy things they want to buy, but when it affects me and the world

at large, I have the right to judge them. It's not just the environmental issues, it's the issue of allowing everyone to get where they're going, see what they're doing, be reasonably safe while they do it, etc. My incandescent lightbulb is not going to take up two or three parking spaces in an already crowded parking lot. Or obstruct 20 from getting home at night because it can't get down a narrow street. Or crush a carload of people because it tried to turn too fast and it rolled over.

[Iris]

44. but why did he want it?`

Because what she said was a lot of those decisions are based on mis-information, which is not an uncommon way for MOST Americans to make decisions of all kinds.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. Don't Know, Don't Care, Ain't My Business.

[Iris]

48. Why are you even here?

Bad choices affect everyone.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

54. Why Are You?

I'd say closed minded intolerance of others and ridiculously narrow minded declarations of what makes one not a Democrat is less democratic than simply feeling that the reasons why someone buys an SUV is simply none of my business.

You and others want to fixate on this issue because you feel it is one you can feel good about and put your nose up in the air over. But I got news for ya: You are wasteful too. You are hurting the environment too. You are not doing every single thing in your power to save the world either. We are all guilty of that, so I refuse to acknowledge the false premises some put forth that just choosing to buy something other than an SUV alone is enough to lift one's nose in the air. Sorry.

[Matsubara]

63. Who's saying you're not a democrat? I know lots of wasteful democrats.

I assumed the poster was your participation in this thread, not DU itself.

There is a difference in the rest of us making an effort to conserve, and admittedly not doing all we can, and your insistence that you are entitled to waste to your heart's content, and that everyone is wasteful, so who cares?

I don't put my nose in the air about conserving, because everybody here does it. You're the only one antagonizing people. And you're the only one acting all superior and put upon.


Also, you mention this "outdoor lifestyle". So is every car trip you make, a trip to the woods, or do you drive the SUV to work? It's one thing to have an SUV and use it for those excursions, but then use transit or an efficient car or carpooling for commuting. Do you even do those little things? Or do you seriously feel entitled to suck up as much gasoline and pollute as you please?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

66. ...

:boring:

[Matsubara]

73. If the topic bores you so, don't post about it.

"OPERATIONMINDCRIME"

thinks people who bitch about SUVs are holier-than-thou - check.

thinks he's entitled to drive a huge SUV - check.

is bored by posts about said topic - check.

but still chooses to post on the topic and antagonize people for no reason whatsoever - check.

thinks that it's HILARIOUS that anyone would wish for all accomplices to the mass murder of Iraqis in the illegal invasion to be sentenced to prison for war crimes - check.

Anything I've missed?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

75. ...

:boring:

[pa28]

196. Let he who is without eco-sin cast the first stone.

One of the reasons I'm a Democrat is that we are supposed to more tolerant of other people's choices even though we may not like it. Anybody striving to be a more "perfect" Democrat might consider that point.

[Matsubara]

57. Because making wasteful choices for his "lifestyle" is not enough...

He has to come on a board and assert his right to consume and waste as much as he pleases, and make ludicrous claims, like that driving an econobox is just as wasteful as driving a huge SUV and a boat.

Also, to antagonize anyone who has the temerity to suggest that people should drive more fuel-efficient cars.

Like he said, none of us is perfect. I use an air conditioner in summer because I have a hard time sleeping in a hot, humid room. I do my best to stand it with just the ceiling fan as long as I can, but come June or July, the AC is on. It's one of my vices, and it's wasteful, but I don't go around saying it's my "right", or act like it's not a waste of electricity.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

65. Oh Nooooooooo More Strawmen!!!!! Somebody, Make Them Stop!!! Ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

"He has to come on a board and assert his right to consume and waste as much as he pleases, and make ludicrous claims, like that driving an econobox is just as wasteful as driving a huge SUV and a boat."

Nowhere will you see a claim from me that driving an econobox is equally as wasteful as driving a huge SUV and a boat. To have said so would've been retarded. But I didn't say such. You simply made it up.

"Also, to antagonize anyone who has the temerity to suggest that people should drive more fuel-efficient cars."

Oh really? I did that? For real? Oh, my bad, you're overdramatizing again. Nothing wrong whatsoever with suggesting we should drive more fuel efficient cars. It's when someone goes past suggestion and into the noselifting realm of perceived "I'm better than they are cause I drive an econobox blah blah blah" of which my objections begin to arise.

"Like he said, none of us is perfect. I use an air conditioner in summer because I have a hard time sleeping in a hot, humid room. I do my best to stand it with just the ceiling fan as long as I can, but come June or July, the AC is on. It's one of my vices, and it's wasteful, but I don't go around saying it's my "right", or act like it's not a waste of electricity. "

You're right: It's a waste of electricity. You're right: SUV's waste gas. You're wrong: I never said otherwise.

[Matsubara]

70. No, you claim that "everyone is wasteful"

and thus imply that what you do is the same as what everyone else does, that it's only a matter of degrees, and that the degrees don't matter.

It's not a strawman, because you made the implication and everyone here knows it.

If anything is a strawman, it's your gripe that people are "turning their noses up" at you.

The only person who's claiming superiority is YOU. "I'm entitled to use more than my share of petroleum and put out more than my share of CO2 because of my outdoorsy lifestyle and because I can afford to"

You're using petroleum that could have been used in the future by your kids or grandkids

"You're right: It's a waste of electricity. You're right: SUV's waste gas. You're wrong: I never said otherwise."

No, you implied that your SUV's wasteful 12 mpg is somehow equivalent to the 30 and 40 mpg others get, that everyone's wasteful, so what's the difference.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

76. ....

:boring: :boring: :boring:

[grace0418]

82. And I imagine you don't give up trying to be less wasteful just because you use AC

in the summer. The "everybody's wasteful" argument was just astonishing.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

99. And I Imagine That Those Who Drive SUV's Don't Give Up Trying To Be Less Wasteful Either.

See how your flawed argument works? See why it's skewed?

And I got news for ya: I never said people shouldn't try. You're just simply making that part up.

[grace0418]

101. One of your arguments was "Ain't A One Of Us That Ain't Wasteful If Put Under The Microscope Pal."

That suggests something of a shoulder-shrugging, "whaddya gonna do" attitude. It does not suggest someone who is making much effort to be less wasteful. I'm sorry if I am incorrect.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

105. It Means That Those Who Criticize As If Their Shit Don't Stink, Should Take A Deeper Whiff.

It's not shoulder shrugging. It's a call out of judgmental hypocrisy.

[grace0418]

110. Sure, whatever makes you feel better.

The "shit don't stink" argument always sounds quite defensive to me.

[grace0418]

80. Sure, maybe every person on the road has an SUV for the "right" reasons.

Maybe they tow the boat they use to help rescue marine animals. Maybe they shuttle people to soup kitchens. Maybe they are all rescuing people stranded in the mountains. I'm sure that only a *very small percentage* of them drive SUVs as ostentatious status symbols or because it makes them feel important or tough or cool. Suuuuuuuuure.

It's usually pretty obvious who drives an SUV because they actually need it (i.e., they don't drive Range Rovers or Hummers and they actually have a few scratches and dirt on the vehicle). And it's pretty obvious who drives one because they want to look a certain way. They have a right to buy stuff "because they want to" but I have a right to think they are selfish and wasteful. It's not a matter of disagreeing with their taste in music or fashion, or judging them based on what they do behind closed doors. I don't give a shit what people do if it doesn't affect the world at large. It's a matter of having to deal with obstructive, dangerous, space-hogging and fume-belching behemoths every time I need to drive anywhere. It's a matter of the survival of the planet we all share. So yeah, you're damn right I'm going to judge them.

"He bought his SUV because he wanted to" is not a good enough reason for me, I'm sorry. George Bush started a war because he wanted to, doesn't make it right. If everyone did everything they "wanted to" all the time we'd live in an even more fucked up world than we already do.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

100. Orrrrr, Maybe It Just Ain't Up To You To Dictate What The "Right" Reasons Are.

But please, continue to go on with your 'my perspective is the only right perspective' point of view.

[grace0418]

102. LOL. That's good. Wow. Interesting take on my argument.

Not at all the pot calling the kettle black.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

109. You're Right. It Isn't That At All.

I have an open minded perspective that allows an understanding that people make their own choices for their own reasons and it isn't up to me to dictate that for them, whereas your premise is a closed minded one in which you feel you have the power to dictate what is right to others, or that your perspective of what the bar is for 'doing enough' is the one that we are all expected to be measured by. Sorry, don't quite work that way. So no, not at all pot calling the kettle black; though there is a black kettle.

[grace0418]

114. Unfortunately we are all interconnected. If you lived in bubble you could do whatever

you wanted and allow everyone else to do whatever they wanted. Sorry, it "don't quite work that way." You can always make your own choices for your own reasons but when those choices affect other people you can't expect them not to care. You can call them names, you can claim they think their shit don't stink, you can tell them they are judgmental hypocrites, etc. until you're blue in the face. But until your choices stop affecting others in an immediate (as in, "That's okay, I didn't need a whole parking spot, one-third is fine. And go ahead and keep my sideview mirror. I have another.") and long-term (excessive environmental impact) way, you're simply going to have to live with the fact that others have the right to their opinion about your choices. And they have the right to voice it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

117. Yes, You're Voicing Your Opinion, As I'm Voicing Mine. Goes Both Ways Ya Know.

And I have never once had a problem pulling into a parking spot and have more often seen small cars taking up multiple spaces than SUV's. Not sure that argument of yours has any merit whatsoever.

And furthermore, you still seemed to have missed my original point. The point that you can care all you want, but that doesn't mean that the SUV drivers don't care as well, and it most certainly doesn't mean that you've done all you can either. None of us are clean here. So with as much vitriol as you can spout out towards those owning SUV's, someone else could easily spout out at you just the same for doing all of the other wasteful or 'environmentally harmful' things that you do. It's all relative and subjective. That's what you seem to be missing.

[grace0418]

138. There's a difference between voicing an opinion and telling someone they're wrong for having one.

That's what you seem to be missing.

[tjwash]

55. I have to go up to L.A .twice a week.

And damned if 70 percent of the cars on the road are not big gas hogs. Lincoln Navigators, Chevy Suburbans, 12 cylinder F250's...you name it they are clogging up the freeways out here. That in itself is not so bad, but at least 90 percent of those only have one freakin' person driving them. No passengers no one else...just one person in a CO2 belching behemoth hogging the lane.

I saw someone at the pump fill one of those up and the final price was $127.32. The Honda Hybrid I bought for these commutes pays for itself a little more every time the price of gas creeps up...

[grace0418]

93. And how many of them would be sooooooooooooooo pissed if their

"utility" vehicle got a tiny scratch on it?

Yeah, one freaking driver, naturally. And what percentage of them use their planet-mobile for any practical purpose that couldn't be filled by a smaller vehicle?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

103. Funny Thing Though. On Just Those Two Days Of Yours You Use 6 More Gallons Than I Do All Week.

Funny how that works, ain't it? :rofl:

[DS1]

42. The people making well over $250,000 a year have to replace their 3 year

old models.

[Catherine Vincent]

43. I think a lot of it has to do with sitting up high.

SUV owners like that.

[jsamuel]

49. ALL YOU GAS TAX PEOPLE!

The higher gas taxes hurt THE POOR! They do not hurt the RICH who use the most gas and buy the most gas guzzling cars!

AH!

[tjwash]

50. The guy who lives across the street from me is the global warming posterboy

2 huge diesel hogging trucks, 2 big boats, jet skis in the garage, and his wife drives a gas guzzling SUV.

Nice guy, but damn...

[Jed Dilligan]

60. Could this be in part b/c of new hybrid options? nt

[Roland99]

62. Gas was BELOW $2/gal in Jan.! No wonder sales were going up.

They'll start tanking now (no pun intended) ;)

[jsamuel]

64. No, you misunderstand the graph. It is for April of each year only. (one month total)

[Roland99]

67. Oh, I was referring to the Q1 numbers overall. But, weren't sales WAY down last spring?

So anything up is almost expected?

[bpeale]

71. actually they're going to need

those big, roomy suv's when they have to live in them. tough choice between having a place to live and driving.

[quiet.american]

77. In my relatives' world, it just comes down to keeping up with the Joneses.

Two huge SUV's in the yard is purely a status symbol, cost be damned. It says, "Hey, look at me, I can afford a huge car and the gas to drive it! I'm a success!"

Literally, my relatives who drive these things rate one's success in life on whether you can afford an SUV or not.

[glitch]

92. That's it in a nutshell. And I do mean nutshell.

I wish they'd make conspicuous conservation cool.

[grace0418]

97. LOL! That's perfect.

I wish I could recommend this post.

[grace0418]

96. And it's so funny to me how many SUV owners get so defensive at the suggestion.

"But I need! Who are you to judge?!"

Uh, yeah, the suburban surface streets you drive to go to the mall, work and the grocery sure require that Navigator.

People can't face that they do the same shit they did in high school for the same reasons. "Look at me! I'm cool!"

:eyes:

[quiet.american]

119. Yep.

Whomever I know who owns an SUV -- wherever they live the "roads" are apparently impassable without a Ford Expedition or whatever tank they're driving.

[kenny blankenship]

95. Behold the "rational" marketplace of rational actors individually making rational decisions

...adding up to collective extinction

truly, the land of the lost.

[blondeatlast]

106. TEN GRAND REBATE on a Hummer; I heard the ad on radio this morning.

TEN GRAND.

Yeah, these are the vehicles to own now. :sarcasm:

TEN GRAND.

[Mrspeeker]

115. Well i dont believe any polls or graphs I see, those are just comercials for its ok to own a SUV now

See the charts and polls its really ok!

Yeah freaking BS! I talk to people everyday who are downgrading to smaller trucks or cars, and its a big issue.
I work for quik stop and yes we sell gas, and No, no one I know or talk to is upgrading with gas at 3.42 here, and yes even papers like the SF Chronicle (so called liberal paper) ran this article, or should I say commercial..saying its fine because everyone is doing it!

[devilgrrl]

125. Cool! I'm going out and buying one NOW! I NEED THAT!

I have so much shit to put in the trunk - there's NO ALTERNATIVE!!!!

:sarcasm:

[Rex]

136. SUVs are good for the environment! They eat up all the gas, so

that eventually we will be forced to find an alternative fuel source - faster! Series!

[devilgrrl]

143. Check it out! Smoking tobacco is GOOD for you!!!!!!

It is. I'm so totally SERIES!!!!

[insleeforprez]

137. Repeat after me:

COMPENSATION

[Rex]

140. What about the fellas that buy 'midsize' SUVs? What does that say about

them!?

[devilgrrl]

151. COMPENSATION!

The bigger the vehicle, the smaller the member.

[Dukkha]

142. but I NEED one for the baby!

because my baby is 700lbs. That should be heavy enough so the SUV doesn't flip over on a turn.

[SallyMander]

146. LOL!!

on second though ... ouch!

[bullwinkle428]

149. Very interesting article on the perceived safety of SUVs -

some really eye-opening stuff with regards to their classification, development, maneuverability, death rates based on vehicle type, etc.


http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html

[bullwinkle428]

169. WHAT??? No one read my linkie-link? I feel so neglected!

:cry:









:rofl:

[Matsubara]

183. I did. Thanks for the interesting look into the mind of the SUV driver.

They mention safety as being a motivator behind sales of smaller cars in Europe and Japan. I have to disagree there.

Here in J-land, 40% of all cars sold are in the "kei" (microcar) class. Now, some of them are very well designed and manage, with extra height, to have a remarkable amount of space on their small wheelbases and engine displacement, but they are all shorter and narrower than a Suzuki Sprint (Geo Metro back in the day)

People but keis because of several important factors unique to Japan:

1. The annual tax on kei's costs a fraction of what it costs for standard cars.
2. The cost of the biennial inspection is also half or less than what it costs for standard cars (this can run up near a thousand dollars on a large car)
3. They use a LOT less gas.
4. Parking spaces here are small - many are marked "kei only"
5. Many roads here are based on ancient town and village layouts and are extremely narrow - narrower than a big-city alley in the states. Even with two keis approaching another, one would have to pull over to the side and let the other squeeze by.

But despite all of these factors, you still see some people here driving about in the huge SUVs - even the US ones with the steering wheel on the wrong side. And honestly, these people look insane. No vehicle, other than maybe a semi, is worse-adapted to driving in Japan. I have enough problem manouvering my microvan around the narrow streets and trying to park it. A Navigator? Fageddaboutit.

[bullwinkle428]

188. That's just mind-boggling - the idea of American-made SUVs driving

through the streets of Japan! I've watched a couple of YouTube videos of posters submitting their POV camera shots of them riding their motorcycles and scooters through the streets in Tokyo, and everything looks so tight - clearly why the micro-cars are so desirable. SUV ownership must be even more of a status thing in Japan than it is in the U.S., as owners here can at least use the excuse that there exist plenty of places throughout the nation where a 4-wheel drive truck is desirable to have, even if they never go there. Japan, I would imagine...not so much.

[joe_sixpack]

153. When is it going to stop?

Why do we just pick on SUV owners when we talk about habits that are wasteful? What about people who buy a big screen TV because they enjoy watching movies? Or a powerful stereo system because they like listening to high quality music? Surely they don't "need" those things. Oh no, I have a gas powered lawn mower when I know I can survive with a manual one. I really don't have to have six rooms in my house when all I really need is a kitchen, bathroom and bedroom. Come on, does anyone really need a cell phone? We got along for thousands of years without them and they really are so annoying. And what about offspring? no one needs to have more than 3, one of each. Just one single kid more than that surely contributes more carbon dioxide in their lifetimes than an Explorer does.

It's the new cause de jour, my carbon footprint is smaller than yours. Everyone points fingers at those who drive SUVs. But you really don't know. What if I drive one but only drive it when I absolutely need to, combine trips and go the speed limit? Compare this to the teenager who drives a mid size car that's never been tuned up, and travels at 80 mph between stop lights, who drives several kids around on meaningless trips to the mall and back 4 times a day. What if I've also plugged up every leak in my house, recycle every single thing, gave up my TV and wear sweaters instead of turning the heat up?. I may limit myself to three showers a week and four pieces of toilet paper. Perhaps I grow my own veggies and make clothes from the shedding hair of my collie. Am I still going to be forced to wear a scarlet letter because of my vehicle choice?

There's a thing about glass houses and throwing stones. If you're making every single effort, and I mean "every" stinkin thing you can do to avoid any kind of wastefulness, then I bow my head and acquiesce in your direction. You probably don't have a social life or any hobbies, but you're close to sainthood, so that's okay. It's just too narrow minded, and very unlike Democrats, to judge someone by their vehicle choice alone.

P.S. I drive a Camry, however I must admit that I often ignore speed limits

[mudesi]

156. I do not understand the offense taken from these anti SUV threads

If you drive an SUV, there is nothing to take offense at if someone points out that SUVs are a major contributer to greenhouse gases, because that is the truth. If you truly need an SUV, then more power to you.

If you don't need one, though, then you are harming the rest of us. That is a fact. Pointing out the hypocrisy of others in regards to other wasteful activities besides driving an SUV does not change that fact.

It's no different than the gun enthusiasts who advocate guns in schools, or the people with health insurance who don't want any changes to the American health care system. They're just people making excuses for their own selfishness. The people here who own SUVs that don't really need an SUV can't fathom taking any responsibility for their harmful behavior, so they point out the plethora of other harmful behaviors out there that the rest of us may or may not be engaging in as a way of compensating. It's entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

I think on some psychological level, the SUV owners know it, which is why they lash out whenever someone here dares to point out that SUVs are one of the major contributors to the destruction of this entire planet. It's subconscious guilt.

[joe_sixpack]

158. I'm certainly not offended

I'm just slightly amused. Has anyone proved that SUVs are harmful? If so, is it just because of their gas mileage? If I burn 1000 gallons of gasoline in a year in a SUV and my neighbor burns 1500 gallons in a Honda Civic, who's caused more harm? And speaking of the concept of actually needing something or not, as I look at our society and economy I realize it is almost entirely predicated on owning and purchasing that which we want, but don't really need. It's why we have jobs and toys and a high standard of living. It's also why most of us have high debt too, but that's another issue entirely.

[mudesi]

161. I had this argument with OPERATIONMINDCRIME above...

If you burn 1000 gallons of gas when you don't really need an SUV, then you are causing more harm than the Civic owner who burns 1500, because the Civic owner is not burning more than he needs to. What would you call the Civic owner if he decided to drive an SUV even though he didn't need one? I would call him wasteful and selfish.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

163. Yeah, And I Won It.

:rofl:

[mudesi]

164. No, you didn't (nm)

:eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

166. Sure I Did. Handily. I Hope You're Not Scarred From It Or Anything, You Seem To Be In Denial.

It'll be ok lynyrd. Everything will be ok...

:rofl:

[mudesi]

168. Nope. Wrong again. (nm)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

172. It's Ok Pal, Time Will Heal Your Wounds.

:rofl:

[mudesi]

174. Checkmate (nm)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

175. There There Lyny Skyny, The Sour Taste Of Defeat Shall Leave Your Mouth By Mornin'. I Promise.

It'll be ok pal. It'll be ohhhhhhhh kkkkkkkkk. :hug:

[mudesi]

177. Checkmate (nm)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

180. Checkmate Infinity To The Infinity Power

:rofl:

[Catherine Vincent]

182. OMC, quit being an ass.

:-) n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

184. LOL Ok Ok.

:)

[whopis01]

189. Oh snap! You gave him a double dose of checkmate! n/t

[mudesi]

190. Checkmate (nm)

[Matsubara]

185. Smiley-addict mindcrime

Apparently thinks a laughing or yawning smiley in response to a well-made point equals victory.

Actually, that technique is popular with Bush & company. "The more smug and self-satisfied I am, the more right I am, and I win in the court of public opinion"

Like when Carter rightly called it the worst administration in history, their response was simply to call him "irrrelevant". No point in anwering the charge that they're the worst, since in almost every area of governance, they clearly have been. Just ridicule your critic, and as far as the corporate media is concerned - debate over.

Congrats mindcrime - you're perfectly suited to the mentality of today's media.

[tabasco]

187. He's a troll. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

191. Actually, I'm An Intellectual Democrat Who Is Probably More Liberal Than You Are, But Nice Try.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

192. And Maybe You Can Take A Minute From Childish Name Calling And Donate To DU. That Would Be Nice.

Would be far more productive from you than flagrantly breaking the rules, ya know?

In fact, it would be nice if all those I've been goin round with in this thread did. Y'all have time to play games and offer personal attack, but ya don't have time to donate to the best political site on the web?

Hey, with all the gas money you all are saving you should easily have a few bucks to spare, no?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

193. ...

:boring:


( :rofl: )

[Matsubara]

195. ...

x( :hippie: :mad: :bounce: :puke: :smoke: :eyes: :wtf: :argh: :dunce: :argh: :freak: :dunce: :nopity: :hurts: :spank: :nuke: :shrug: :banghead: :sarcasm:

[wuushew]

176. Why would it be reasonable to assume different patterns of traffic by car type?

Unless you can prove that the millions of SUV and truck owners select housing locations to offset the increased fuel costs I don't think it is reasonable to assert that the various errands run by motorists are substantially different in any given residential area.

I am not saying that your theory is implausible, just that I believe that it is your burden of proof.

[Marie26]

159. On the other hand

Doesn't that also go for all of us? If we started to think about all the things we do to destroy the planet, we might not be able to function.

[mudesi]

162. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to cut our wastefulness

There is no reason we can't cut back on emissions while still maintaining the same quality of life. Driving a fuel efficient car, replacing light bulbs with energy savers, turning up the A/C by a couple of degrees...all examples of the many things we can do.

If we don't, we are all in deep trouble. The consequences of doing nothing are literally catastrophic.

[Marie26]

165. Agreed

We can't do everything, but it's the little things that count & add up over time.

[joe_sixpack]

204. Unfortunately, I believe

that man was destined to harm the planet since we first crawled out of the primordial ooze.

[Marie26]

154. Suburban pioneers

I think Americans still embrace their inner Pioneer. SUVS remind me of the Conestoga wagons that early settlers used to travel across the country. These wagons had to carry their family and possessions, and they to be large & powerful to survive the arduous journey. Pioneers traveled across the plains in long wagon trains until they finally arrived to claim an acre of grassland. Now, Americans buy large, powerful 4X4's for their morning commutes. They drive their SUV's in long trains of traffic until they finally arrive at their McMansion's acre of lawn. I'm actually not kidding about this. NO other country buys these things, only Americans. Even the names conjure up pictures of brave Western settlers - the Explorer, the Expedition, LOL. It makes you feel almost patriotic to buy one. SUVs are as American as apple pie; I think we will always buy these things as long as manufacturers keep making them.

[illinoisprogressive]

157. Selfish self centered pigs.

[Cobalt-60]

170. And I can fit into my High School Gym shorts

It's bullsh*t, what my senior High School English teacher would have referred to as a "bandwagon" approach.
They may pull in a few suckers, but in the face of unrestriced fuel price hikes these dinos are just scrap metal to real people

[Imagevision]

171. At least we can count on gas prices to drop, but we'll have to wait until 08 election...!

they did it last November and these really pathetic new younger crowd of elitists will do it again sheeple...

[AX10]

173. Why?

[RockLacrosse20]

186. the advantage of high gas prices

as happy as I was when gas prices dropped the last 8 months, it saddened me when i thought bout how SUVs would resurge. I was watching MSNBC and thinking there should be an oil price floor, which would not only help the economy, but lower the use of petrol and in turn force the price stagnant, which would wind up in the lifting of the floor and drop, but enough to preserve our environment and keep money outta the hands of terrorists

[Ron Green]

194. The large SUV is shown to be harmful in various ways. There are 3 ways to reduce harm in society:

1) The Market - Expensive fuel and bad fuel efficiency will eventually reduce the demand for these things.
2) The State - Regulations for higher efficiency or limits on vehicle size will force people to make better choices.
3) The Church* - As people learn more about harm to other people and to the earth, they'll choose more wisely.

*by "The Church" I mean all educational, spiritual and scientific organizations that teach and encourage people to do the right things.

[Selatius]

197. Let gas companies charge you 5+/gallon, good bye SUVs.

Everybody has a breaking point at which the costs become too high to maintain a behavior. Evidently, the Americans who bought SUVs in Apr 2007 haven't reached their breaking point yet. It's also likely many of these are affluent individuals who could afford burning lots of money.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

198. Funny. I know a salesperson at our local Ford dealership.

He said, "We can't give them away, and they're clogging up the lot." He said that he's, personally, selling the heck out of the Focus and with how they've been forced to go so low on the big beast he's making as much in commission off the Focus now as the SUVs and oversized trucks.

My guess would be that if their sales are up it may have something to do with what my friend said about having to knock the prices down so low to move them. People aren't real smart and they'll buy dog poop if you stick a red tag discount on it.

[BlueIris]

200. For many of them, feeling safe is more important than being safe. nt

[MistressOverdone]

201. Doesn't a van use as much

gas as an SUV?

And I've always wondered, if you are driving an old clunker, (which would seem to make your carbon footprint a tad smaller) doesn't the oil use, emissions, etc, work against that?

[joe_sixpack]

203. Attention all Democrats!

The SUV has been chosen as our standard symbol for all that is wasteful and selfish. To those of you who are globally concious, yet still elect to own and operate one in light of that fact, let it be known that you are hereby admonished.