Why do we still celebrate Columbus day?

[Philosoraptor]

Columbus was not the first to discover America. Everything about this legend is wrong. You can't discover something that was already there and already occupied by people. The Vikings were apparently there first, maybe even some Chinese folks, but it's been proven long ago that Columbus was not the first. Yet tomorrow is a federal holiday, no mail delivery, and a day off for millions of Americans.

Hell, Chris was looking for a route to China for gold when he stopped off in the Bahamas, and he left disaster in his wake for the local inhabitants, and we know the rest of the awful truth, yet we still teach this bullshit fable to our kids.

Come on America, face it, we need to drop the fables and get real about history.

[Subdivisions]

1. Yea, I watched that too. And you're right to ask. I don't know the answer. n/t

[Philosoraptor]

2. I suppose the same question might be asked about Christmas

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

14. Hey, let's not go there!

Unless you're talking about the commercialization, or the fact that I wasn't born in December.

[Kurovski]

23. I love you, J!

Always have, always will.

:hi:

[itsrobert]

3. I believe there were people here a long time ago

Before the Vikings, before even the Chinese.

[Philosoraptor]

4. Exactly, so the whole Columbus fairy tale is silly

[Behind the Aegis]

18. The Clovis

The Clovis culture (sometimes referred to as the Llano culture<1>) is a prehistoric Paleo-Indian culture that first appears 11,500 RCYBP (radiocarbon years before present<2>), at the end of the last glacial period, characterized by the manufacture of "Clovis points" and distinctive bone and ivory tools. Archaeologists' most precise determinations at present suggest that this radiocarbon age is equal to roughly 13,500 to 13,000 calendar years ago.

The Clovis culture was replaced by several more localized regional cultures from the time of the Younger Dryas cold climate period onward. Post-Clovis cultures include the Folsom tradition, Gainey, Suwannee-Simpson, Plainview-Goshen, Cumberland, and Redstone. Each of these is commonly thought to derive directly from Clovis, in some cases apparently differing only in the length of the fluting on their projectile points. Although this is generally held to be the result of normal cultural change through time,<3> numerous other reasons have been suggested to be the driving force for the observed changes in the archaeological record, such as an extraterrestrial impact event or post-glacial climate change with numerous faunal extinctions.

After the discovery of several Clovis sites in western North America in the 1930s, the Clovis people came to be regarded as the first human inhabitants of the New World. Clovis people were considered to be the ancestors of all the indigenous cultures of North and South America. However, this majority view has been contested over the last thirty years by several archaeological discoveries, including possible sites like Cactus Hill in Virginia, Paisley Caves in the Summer Lake Basin of Oregon, the Topper site in Allendale County, South Carolina, Meadowcroft Rockshelter in Pennsylvania, and the Monte Verde<4> and Cueva Fell sites in Chile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Earlier but not by much

:hi:

[arcane1]

5. He's the Moses of our civic religion

Sad but true.

Do they celebrate him in Haiti and the Dominican Republic..?

[Philosoraptor]

7. Ask the Navajos and Apaches who discovered America

[proteus_lives]

55. They'd say, the unnamed tribes of nomads that cam before them.

[Champion Jack]

6. Because people like parades?

and wearing costumes?

[phasma ex machina]

71. Because it's a federal holiday. OP already answered the question. nt

[Book Lover]

8. Because the Italian-American community holds onto this tradition

I should say first that I don't know what it's like in places where there are no Italians, Italian-Americans, or where the old world traditions are dead: it's my assumption there are plenty of places that "celebrate" Columbus Day not as a point of Italian-American pride but out of generalized habit. I'm not talking about those places. Italian-Americans originally celebrated Columbus Day as a counterpoint to St. Patrick's Day, as a day of our cultural pride. Someday maybe we can shift this to (my favorite choice) celebrating the day of Dante's birth, since Dante gave us our language, and Columbus didn't even do his work for Italy, but for Spain, but old Italian men are traditionally hide-bound. I'm working on it...

[bobbolink]

30. Thank you. As a people who also experienced prejudice, I can't for the life of me understand why

Italians can't empathize with native americans, and shift to another day for their cultural celebrations. Its not like there aren't plenty of Italian TRUE heroes they could choose!

It is a simple request that Indians make, and there is no rational reason to continue this useless divide.

Thanks for understanding this! :hi:

[Book Lover]

68. Italian-American culture is a funny thing

Tradition is so honored, unthinkingly. Yes, you *would* think that even if the "it's insensitive and hurtful" argument does not persuade, the "he didn't do it for Italy" argument would. Someday I hope this will change. In any case, I am very fortunate to live in a part of the country where we recognize tomorrow as Indigenous Peoples Day, and that is what my son will grow up with. He can easily learn to be proud of our own culture in so many other, honorable, ways.

[bobbolink]

76. What a beautiful post! Thank you!

After some of the very insensitive and heartless posts today, you have really lifted my spirits!

:yourock: and a :hi: for your lucky son.

[Book Lover]

84. Aw, pshaw

I am glad to be of service!

[csziggy]

72. Some even have the theory that Columbus was not Italian

That he was a disgraced son or bastard of a Spanish noble family and the whole thing about him being from whichever city state in Italy was just a cover to let the Spanish Crown grant him funds for his explorations. Those explorations and his 'discoveries' in turn allowed them to grant him titles and land.

Whatever. I think it is just an excuse for another three day weekend.

[JerseygirlCT]

78. I like your Dante idea! nt

[JonLP24]

9. Fuck!

No mail?

Yeah why do we celebrate that day. He was far from the first to discover America.

[Philosoraptor]

10. And ALL the banks are closed, go figger

[Ozymanithrax]

11. Columbus' discoveries led directly to the colonization of the continent..

by Europeans. Vinland did not work out. Polynesians, who are now believed to be ancestors of the Chumash Indians were assimilated. The Japanese, who may have visited occasionally left no lasting impression. It took Columbus' discovery to bring the North and South American Continent into full contact with Europe and Asia and changed history.

So I think it is still appropriate to celebrate him with a holiday.

[pretzel4gore]

43. he was a plague bacillus

that's only thing the pervert did- his crew were dripping with dis ease. But celebrate anyway (after all, our turn's coming!)

[Ozymanithrax]

49. Sorry, by history says that he did much more...

Sure, if he did not go on his voyge of discovery, someone else would have, eventually, and the same plagues would have spread. His voyage was what opened the Continent. He changed history.

[pretzel4gore]

74. you're very right

(you know this is coming!)
BUT! History was a kaleidascope of ongoing dramas involving all sorts of 'explorations' by all types of people the world over, with the impact felt to this day. It was bigger then myth. Now myth has distinct advantage over the truth in that it's based upon facts, but, in case of adolph columbus; there are lotsa tough, ruthless and increasingly demanding people such as the Amerindian First Nations who will only consider the crimes of olde as 'in the past' ONLY if the benefactors of those historic injustices stop pushing rightwing fascism on us, and lying like banshees while doing it!
Either the pig stops screwing around, or maybe we arrange free bacon throughout the americas

[proteus_lives]

56. Agreed.

[Lionel Mandrake]

86. Yes, Columbus's voyages had huge consequences.

That is why we celebrate.

Never mind that Columbus was all confused about just what he had discovered. He thought he had reached India; so he called the native Americans "Indians".

Columbus thought the diameter of the Earth was much smaller than it really is. Otherwise he would not have dared to sail across the Atlantic.

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

12. Columbus was an idiot who got lost

And his idiocy lives on today. Not just with Columbus Day, but the fact that the indigenous people of this continent are still called "Indians", because Chris the idiot didn't know where he was.

[Philosoraptor]

15. The term 'Indians' for native peoples is somewhat offensive at the least

[InvisibleTouch]

33. I heard a different story on the origin of the term "Indians."

It wasn't that Columbus thought he was in India; he knew very well that he wasn't. But he found the native people to be so in tune with nature and in harmony with themselves that he found them "godly" - thus the term "Indian" came from "in dios," meaning they were living "in god." Heard that from Sitting Bull's grandson, for what it's worth. He also gave a whole different account of the first Thanksgiving than the one we're taught in school - but perhaps that's a tale for another holiday.

[Gaedel]

36. It is what people called them

We call the Deutsch people Germans

We call the Han people Chinese

Many languages use a different term for other nationalities than the nationalities use for themselves.

[bobbolink]

44. Its the term my Indian friends use, so I use it, also.

Personally, I prefer the term that Canadians use, "First Nation".

[CTyankee]

54. Is "native Americans" not correct also? nt

[bobbolink]

65. As I said, I go by what people prefer to be called, and how they refer to themselves.

[AspenRose]

70. It's best to ask them what they personally prefer.

Most I know personally prefer Indian.

[Gaedel]

35. Columbus didn't get lost.....

He knew exactly where he was going. He just didn't plan for North and South America being in the way and that going to the East Indies would require a many thousand mile detour.

[Journeyman]

13. Because myth has a tighter hold on imagination than truth ever will . . .

[Odin2005]

16. More importantly, why DON'T we celebrate Leif Eriksson Day?

This Norwegian-American wants to know! :grr:

Cristobal Colon was an idiot who thought the world was smaller than it actually is, and insisted he was right when everyone teld him his calculations sucked.

[Diclotican]

29. Odin2005

Odin2005

Not sure about who Leif Ericksson was. As the name Leif is of younger origin than Leiv, who was his real name But I know about the fellow LEIV ERICSSON, who discovered what is today New Foundland, and maybe part of Canada/USA today. And Im not sure why not americans also is celebrating his day.... But it can be becouse mr Cristobal Colon had a better PR advisor than Leiv Ericsson had when he was over there...

Diclotican

[Gaedel]

37. The older Runic Futhark

There is no character for "V" in the runes. It should be "Lief" as the only "V" or "F" sound in the runic alphabet is "F" or "fehu". V only came into the Teutonic languages with the advent of the printing press and the proliferation of the Latin alphabet.

[Odin2005]

41. In early Germanic languages "f' was pronounced "v" between vowels.

We can see remnants of this in singular-plural voicing alternations in English words like "wolf-wolves, knife-knives, etc".

[Diclotican]

50. Odin2005

Odin2005

But Still I would say that the correct name for the nordic discover of what today is parts of Canada and USA, is Leiv rather than Leif as many still is saying.. Either are they wrong, or Sturla Sturlasson and other antic writers is also wrong. And for some reason I really doubt that Sturlasson had some interesting of telling a lie about a mans name

By the way, Leiv Ericssons father Eric Raude, was a man of many talents, and also many enemies. And he is also stated to be the man who discovered Greenland, and it was part of the Kindom of Norway, until Denmark managed to steal Greenland, and Iceland and Færøyene from Norway when the union between us was over in 1814..

Diclotican

[Diclotican]

48. Gaedel

Gaedel

Posible, but I still wil say that Mr Ericssons name was Leiv, rather than Leif, As LEIV is a old nordic name, but Leif is a rather new name compared to Leiv... So either are old the ancient writers wrong, when they are talking about Leiv Ericsson, and I suport myself to the name of Sturla Sturlasson, the writer of the norwigian Kings sagaer, who wrote his famous book, in the 1200th centry AD.. Or the americans, who insist of telling that mr Leiv's name was indeed LEIF is wrong.. Pick your own shoice I might say..

But of course, an american know better, than we who live in Norway, and have known this from before we could walk, its a part of our herritage you know..

Diclotican

[Odin2005]

40. We call him Leif here!

I believe his original Old Norse name was Leifur Eriksson, pronounced "LAY-voor"

[treestar]

60. He was not an idiot, given the state of knowledge at the time.

Why in 1492 should he have known the size of the Earth? He was a genius for not being afraid of falling off the edge.

[Odin2005]

67. Most educated people at the time knew that the earth was a sphere and about 24,000 miles around.

The notion that most people then thought the earth was flat is one of those idiotic things they brainwash into kids' heads in order to make Columbus look like some sort of hero against "Medieval ignorance". The reason He was laughed out of most of the royal courts is because most of then knew that his calculations of the Earth's diameter was bogus and that sailing West to China was suicidal (people assumed there was no land in the way) with the sailing technology at the time because the distance was to long. It was the less educated court of Spain that fell for Columbus's nonsense.

[verges]

85. Because Ericson's settlement

eventually failed and was more or less forgotten. Whereas Columbus' expeditions ushered in the period of Western European colonization of the American continents. Which, as youu know, we are the by-products of.

I'll even posit that had Columbus' not embarked on his voyages, not a single person on this board (or for that matter this board itself) would even exist!!

[hfojvt]

17. What does discovery have to do with anything?

Columbus was the one who opened up the gates and brought over the European settlement that the vast majority of this country is descended from.

[Philosoraptor]

19. 'Discovered' is the wrong word.

Chris accidently found this continent while looking for China, so I'm not sure what we should call Oct. 11th.

[Drale]

20. Because

he started an all new era of economic exploitation, and we all know who republican love economic exploitation.

[Brother Buzz]

21. Columbus and the crew got their comeuppance

They returned with syphilis and introduced it to Europe.

[Gaedel]

38. Some dispute on that

Many theorize that syphilis mutated from yaws, a disease prevalent in Europe. With the advent of better housing and warmer clothing, Europeans no longer had to "huddle" to survive in winter. Yaws couldn't keep spreading from skin-to-skin contact and mutated into spreading by sexual contact.

[Brother Buzz]

51. The jurry is still out

The age of the subjects, and location of the burials coupled with the timeline suggest otherwise.

[Gabi Hayes]

22. same reason we have a J Edgar Hoover Building and Ronald Reagan Intl Airport.

[whistler162]

24. because the Italians have a stronger lobby than the

Scandinavians!

I guess cement shoes are scarier than Lutefisk.

Leif Ericsson day!!!!!

[Gaedel]

39. Political pressure

The Italian lobby in the US has consistently opposed formal recognition of any pre-Columbian contact between Europe and America.

[bobbolink]

45. The oppressed of yesterday become the oppressors of today.

[elleng]

25. WHY, really? Ease of rewriting history, AND UN-making a holiday?

[Motown_Johnny]

26. for all the Columbus day sales

[Kurovski]

27. Let's swap it out and celebrate the Stonewall Riots.

http://www.civilrights.org/archives/2009/06/449-stonewall.html

Right wingers and T'ers will go along with it because they are so totally about liberty and against govt. intrusion in private lives! It's tailor made for them! I'm so excited!!

[L0oniX]

28. We need to be thankful that Columbus brought slaves here.

NOT!

[progressoid]

31. Ya see? This is just more proof that you libruls hate America!!11!

Maybe you need one of them new Texas history books to straighten you out.


;)

[SoCalDem]

32. Because we have done it for a long time, and there is a legal holiday attached to it

Other than a few diehard Italian-American groups, probably most people don't "celebrate" it at all except for enjoying a possible day off with pay.

Young people probably don;t know that once upon a time holidays meant just that.. HOLIDAY...stores were CLOSED. Now holidays are pretty meaningless in a service economy..

[bobbolink]

34. Recommended for Basic Humanity!

All Nations Four Directions March

Denver is asked to join objections to Columbus Day parade content



by Carol Berry

DENVER – The city of Denver is gearing up for its annual pre-Columbus Day parade Oct. 11, an event that has placed Colorado’s capital squarely at the epicenter of a recurring debate about the Columbian legacy and the character of Christopher Columbus himself.

This year, the city-appointed Denver American Indian Commission appealed to Denver’s mayor and city council to support its concern about the parade’s content, which the commission said has become “increasingly anti-Indian.”

During the last decade in Denver, hundreds of arrests have occurred, hundreds of jail cells have been filled and hundreds of thousands of city dollars have been spent over street conflicts between city police and those who regard the use of the name “Columbus” for the parade as a tribute to the initiator of ethnic cleansing in Native North America and as a celebration of conquest.

Currently, the Native group has cited the past inclusion of horsemen dressed as U.S. Cavalry members and the possibility they would be a part of this year’s parade, as well.

The Indian advisory commission’s request for the city to distance itself from the parade because of offensive content was also sent to the city’s seven other target city commissions – the Office of Disability Support, the Commission on Aging, and the Hispanic, Asian Pacific American, GLBT, Women’s, and African American commissions.

I believe that permission is given at the link to reprint in whole, but rather than upset mods, I will direct interested DUers to the link:
http://nativobserver.org/octubre-noviembre/articles/alldirectionsmarch.htm

For many years I have participated in the Four Directions March, and it is a great experience.... hope to see some of you there.

[ThomWV]

42. Because its not worth arguing about

and for whatever its worth Pluto can still be a planet too as far as I care.

[bobbolink]

47. its really a shame that a single post can't be unrec'd.

:puke:

[LostInAnomie]

46. Because of his importance to history.

Others might have landed here first, but their discovery didn't make any lasting impression. Columbus's discovery of America opened the doors of exploration and colonization by Europeans giving us the majority of the societies in presently in North and South America. You can't say that about any of the others that set foot here.

[KurtNYC]

52. because we need a holiday in October and the fundies would freak if

banks and schools closed for Halloween.

It is that simple.

[demosincebirth]

53. Its a paid holiday for me. Lets keep it.

[GSLevel9]

57. so that Fed workers can have the day off, silly :D nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

58. It's a nod to Italian-Americans

[Obamanaut]

59. Christmas too. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Because it is an ESSENTIAL part of the American myth

and the Black Legend.

In mexico it makes sense... for OTHER reasons and a different national myth.

[Goldfish]

63. In Hawaii, it's known as Discoverers' Day, in honor of Capt. Cook and others. n/t

[WinkyDink]

64. The truth? Because Italian-Americans (of whom I am one) demand it, as Irish-Americans (of whom I am

one) demand the acknowledgment (at least) of St. Patrick's Day.

[bobbolink]

66. You do see a difference between the two, right?

[Book Lover]

69. What do you think of what I proposed up in message #8?

We come from an incredibly rich tradition; why don't we continue to honor ourselves and celebrate someone else?

[WolverineDG]

79. Irish-Americans *DEMAND* acknowledgement of St. Patrick's Day?

I think the fuck not.

More like everyone else wanted an excuse to get as drunk as they could possibly get, and hey, what better way to do that than on a holiday revered by the Irish who we all know get drunk & eat potatoes every single day? Stereotype much?

:eyes:

dg

[JackRiddler]

82. They could switch to Frank Sinatra Day, you know.

I mean, they don't have to honor a mass murdering conquistador, do they?

[cherokeeprogressive]

73. Ooooh, you need to give the holiday another name then or you'll piss off a whole lot of labor unions

You're advocating taking a paid day off away from them?

Good luck with that.

[MellowDem]

75. It's tradition now...

that's why. The original meaning of the holiday, like pretty much all holidays, especially secular, state-created holidays, does not matter anymore.

[bobbolink]

87. Slavery was "tradition", too.

[JerseygirlCT]

77. My 11 yo asked me this today.

Had no good answer for him.

Because some people wanted a day off in October?

[JackRiddler]

80. I don't. Why have "we" got 3 wars, bases in 120 countries and nukes deployed around the world?

Maybe "we" have something in common with the genocidal conquistadors of that time?

[ChazII]

81. No celebration

in my school or city.

[Rex]

83. Traditions like those are hard to break, who is celebrating btw?

Maybe we shouldn't have a Columbus day, he really didn't do what they say he did yet it is the 'founding' of the New World by the Old World...or whatever I don't really care.