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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:13 AM
Original message
The base is leaving the Democrats
Yep, those ever reliable Democratic voting Independent voters have had it with the Democrats.

Why?

Because the Democrats are socialists who don't enact socialistic policies.

harruuuumph!
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. Since when has the Democratic "base" been "Independent voters"?
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 06:21 AM by pipoman
The base, by definition, would be Democrats not Independents.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I think you missed entirely the reason for the post.
Not saying it's your fault, could be how I wrote it.

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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. Well, we've been told that we have
no power but if the Democrats lose it's all our fault. Which is it?
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yep, I would like to know the answer to that myself.
Indies who voted for Obama obviously liked what he said on the campaign trail, and now are having second thoughts.

I think if they really felt good about things by having a policy that did more for the people of this country, the socialist meme wouldn't stick and the dems wouldn't be in a position of possibly losing control of the house.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
32. the "socialist" charge is only attractive to teabag Limbaugh listeners
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
26. Nope. If the Democrats lose, it's because of the economy or the
M$M and the general idiocy of the voters. Including those duped by the right into staying home because the Ds are not left enough.

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metapunditedgy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #26
35. That's the new talking point. The left refuses to be scapegoated, so we need somebody else
to take the fall.

If the f**kups come home to roost, it will NOT be the fault of:
- the left/base
- Rachel or KO
- "the general idiocy of the voters"
- the economy
- the Tea Party
- we can add more names as the talking points evolve.

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metapunditedgy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
33. We just need a narrative to sell to the corporate investors. This was part of the plan.
If we can demonstrate that the Democratic Party is viable (e.g., can muster 40-60% of the vote) without actual human beings who want fair treatment from corporations, then all will be ok.

The goal is to maximize votes while simultaneously minimizing corporate regulations, which is *not* the same as maximizing votes alone. It's like a "Laffer Curve" of politics.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. Support of the President by key elements of the Democratic Base remains unchanged

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124922/Presidential-Job-Appr...

Democratic Black voters 90%

Liberal Democrats 84%

Liberals 73%

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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Good to know, then people can STFU about the liberals and lefty fringe and professional leftists
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 06:30 AM by boston bean
being the reason for the democrats possibly losing the House.

I'm glad you agree!

And now we can possibly discuss the reasons for the loss of independent voters.

I suspect you and I would not agree. You might think the Democrats need to move further right to keep them. I on the other hand feel they should move left.

That is the crux of the issue, would you not agree?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. I don't think it is purely a left or right issue

The Party needs to first make its message more understandable.

I made the point yesterday:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/grantcart/326

In reality I don't think that ideological here is as signifant a divide at DU as the question of strategy and messaging. I don't think that Grayson's method (although I personally like him) is going to be effective. Getting angrier and more confrontational makes us feel good but it isn't going to persuade many independents. If they liked that approach they wouldn't be independents, they would be Democrats.

I think that we should, for example, push for single payer but we have to take it out of the policy level and make people understand it and how it affects them in their real life. The problem then becomes if you haven't done that and you get to the legislative level you have to make more compromises to get things passed, especially with a Senate that requires a super super majority.

You are correct in that I am not emotionally tied to an ideological response - I am only tied to the best practical response. In most cases the classical liberal reform, or some derivative of it, is the most practical answer and in many cases has already been proven in more liberal European countries. My own personal preference, for example is that every handgun and rifle in the US would be confiscated and that hunting rifles would be kept at hunting lodges and that police would no longer need to carry a gun in every situation. I concede however that is completely unrealistic and that we should not fight that battle, we aren't going to win and its going to endanger our entire agenda, so in that case I do believe that we need to move to the right rather than the left.

It just depends on the issue - on the second ammendment go to the right, on immigration and health care go to the left; in all cases get better messaging on how it affects normal people in everyday life.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
28. That's what we've always said
And the polls say that, too, that it is the Independent voters we were losing. It is the professional left who claims that they are so important and that their revenge for not getting all they want in two years is that they will stay home and refuse to get out the vote, that we'll lose and that's our punishment. They are the ones who brought up the subject that way and keep beating that horse.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. Democrats are not socialists -
in any way, shape, or form. As long as they support capitalism they can't be by definition. But they could enact liberal policies. That hasn't happened for awhile in this country however ...

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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I am using RW terminology. As far as RWers are concerned
Democrats are socialists, but you and I both know they don't enact socialist policy.

I would be happy with some real populist policy.

That might get the indies to go along. Cause if the proof was in the pudding, the socialist meme wouldn't stick.

But no, Democrats keep running away in fear from the labels, instead of gaining control of the message via good policy.
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
9. I don't think any Democrat could vote for a republican
after this latest campaign and all the crazy and I mean crazy rhetoric they tea bags and republicans are putting out there, we are more sane and intelligent to ever waste a vote.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I agree. But what about those indies?
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
30. Many here are voting for Crist who is a Republican Reject
who is now an 'independent'. They claim to be Democrats in spite of voting for Palin endorsing recent Republicans like Crist.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
11. generalize much?
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 06:53 AM by ixion
You know, as an independent voter who doesn't think Obama is even vaguely socialist (save for the corporatist sense), I take offense at your broad-brush snark.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. No, there are people like you. But a good many who voted for Obama
have fallen for the socialist meme. Do you disagree with that?

I don't mean to broadbrush. I do think you are in the minority, although a very important minority of voters. As I happen to agree with you that the Democrats are not socialist.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. We agree that Dems aren't socialist... however
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 06:56 AM by ixion
I disagree that real independent voters see him as such. I think the people you're talking about are teabagger independents, which aren't really independent at all, given their strong propensity towards group-think.

And thanks for the clarification. Much appreciated! :hi:

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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. The tea partiers are a wing of the Republican Party and have always been.
They were not Obama or Democratic voters.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Agreed... but it's only the teabaggers and the very, very uninformed who see Obama as socialist
and Independent voters tend to be informed. I'm not saying that they're not out there, just that there may not be as many as you think. :)
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. There's a hell of a lot of uniformed out there! LOL
:hi:
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
12. Yep!
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
17. This debate will be interesting AFTER the election...
The ONLY thing that matters at this point is getting progressive voters to the polls on November 2nd.

You can help do that.

Volunteer down at Democratic HQ. They need people to make phone calls, knock on doors, compile lists of local events, do data entry, etc.

Help others get their early ballots in case they can't get out on election day.

Get a yard sign.

Talk to your cousin/nephew/aunt etc.

We need to focus on this or the next two years of DU will be not about how to improve the country, but about limiting damage.

thanks,

Scuba
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
18. independent voters are not our base..
:shrug:
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I agree, but do we need them to win. I was being facetious. And how do we
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 07:08 AM by boston bean
get their votes. Moving right or moving left?

And the other important questions, is it the loss of indy votes or the lefties who will be responsible for a potential loss. And how do we get those votes. Move in fear of the labels and go right? Or stand strong and go left?

I am of the very strong opinion that a strong leftist populist agenda will bring them towards the Democrats.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Bernie thinks we go left, the DLC says go right
doesn't matter, the candidates will do what they want.

I agree with you and Bernie - go left!

But the DLC is in charge of the party.. So we will continue to crave to be republicans..
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. Do we need Independent voters to win?
In Presidential elections, absolutely. There has never been a president win election without taking "swing" or "independent" voters, at least in the absence of a third party spoiler candidate.

On mid term elections parties have been rebelled against by non-base voters, but usually it is the individual candidates campaigns which makes or breaks their individual chances.

All this is, of coarse, IMHO..
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
23. For the upcoming Nov. vote, let's have a good long
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 07:48 AM by saltpoint
look at which constituents comprising the Democratic base have "left" the Democrats. I bet the base remains with no significant defections.

Independent voters range demographically from people who support Bernie Sanders all the way to people who voted for Ross Perot because they thought Perot was going to lightswitch comprehensive reform. Independents also range from very motivated & informed folk to right-wing kooks who haven't read an issues-based article in years, if they can read at all.

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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
25. Only about 4% of Independents are truly independent, and independents are not the base.
I don't think the base is really leaving, but it may be less motivated to actually get out and vote which is crucial in an off year election. Often in elections one side or the other is more motivated and this may be one of those times. However, it doesn't mean the base is really leaving.

(I do get the point of the OP.)
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
27. Arianna, is that you?
Don't you have another teevee program scheduled for this morning?
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. No, it's David Sirota.
He has his radio show on every morning here and Denver, and I just turn it off - all he does is piss and moan for three hours straight.

Now you know why Clear Channel hired him...
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Just One Woman Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
29. wrong wrong wrong
Say what you want. I think we still have free speech. If we lose, it will be because we didn't do our job and state our case loud enough for all to hear. We have made strides of accomplishments. Stand the ground. Lose the doubt. And show the alternative. If I can do it in Chattanooga Tennessee, it can be done. I want to see the Democratic Party leaders taking the stand. I agree completely with rachel Maddow, we have to take the offensive. The independent voters that are not going to vote democratic are the ones that aren't going to vote at all. The Republican base has been shrinking for a while. But they did get louder. Don't confuse the loudness for numbers. The tea party is proof of that. And not all tea partiers consider themselves republican. Most of them hate what the republicans are doing in congress. That is why they are running. You didn't see any of them running in the primaries to replace the democratic candidate. Now granted their platform is awful and I don't want them winning either. I don't want a bad economy paid for by foreign enemies for two more years, so I say stand up and get a grip. You are either part of the answer or part of the problem. Our Democratic leaders have to know we are with them.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
34. No, they aren't. Republican enthusiasm is high. Democratic enthusiasm is about average.
Independents do tend to be favoring Republicans this cycle, but Democratic voters will probably vote Democrat by overwhelming majorities, as usual.
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