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Please describe the Mechanism whereby "Stop whining" becomes votes.

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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:28 AM
Original message
Please describe the Mechanism whereby "Stop whining" becomes votes.
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 10:43 AM by Kurt_and_Hunter
Many times and in many ways the White House has rolled out the "disloyal/infantile Dems on the left" message.

When the President, the Vice President and the White House Press Secretary all go out of their way to get out a message that is a strategy.

Sometimes (like always) Republicans rail against the liberal (sic) media to enthuse their base. But I don't think there is any Democratic base that can be motivated by criticizing negative-minded Democrats. (It's funny to think about... an apathetic Democratic silent majority that can only be motivated to vote by, "Send a message to those hippies.")

The strategy is, and has always been, a bid to shape the post-election landscape within the Democratic party, diverting blame from the WH to the shadowy left. (Shaping blame is a typical intraparty activity, not some new thing.)

If it is not a cover-your-ass strategy for the election (started depressingly early... CYA in August/September for an election in November is pretty pessimistic) then what is it?

Two questions:
1) Can anyone describe a mechanism whereby repeated iterations of the 'stop whining' theme can result in one additional net vote for Democrats? (This is not a rhetorical question. Seriously... can anyone describe how it works?)

2) "Centrist" Democrats have actually done all the things the left is blamed for. Centrist Dems are the ones who will stay home in November. Centrist Dems in congress are the ones who have thwarted Obama at every turn, deforming our good policies until they lack much power to inspire. These are real things. And conservative Dems are overtly disloyal and malign. So the question is, has the WH ever rolled out a strategy of demeaning centrist or even conservative Dems as whiners and malcontents? And if not, why not? It's fair question.
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. as soon as you explain the mechanism where continual whining becomes votes
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. +1
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. +1...nt
Sid
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
51. Perfect logo
for the Clown Car Contingent, Sid.

Keep up the good work. You make us all feel so warm and fuzzy inside.

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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
22. +1 nt
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. are the vast majority of disaffected Dems "whining" about policy positions?
or do their lives just SUCK so back they aren't thinking about voting for more of it??
Are you really conflating ordinary Dems who're out of a job, waiting for the Hope & change to kick in
with
pouty leftist ideologues ???

Tom Joad was a Red, i get it.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
35. +1
Neither whining nor not whining produces votes. What produces votes is hard work in campaigns for individual candidates. Nothing else.

Votes are individual decisions. It's all a matter of getting individuals who agree with your positions to go to the polls and cast a vote. Nothing else matters. If you get more individuals to the polls who are on your side, you win. If not...

See my signature line.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #35
52. I beg to differ
"Votes are individual decisions. It's all a matter of getting individuals who agree with your positions to go to the polls and cast a vote. Nothing else matters. If you get more individuals to the polls who are on your side, you win. If not..."

It's all a matter of keeping your campaign promises.

Voters remember when they have been hosed and no amount of door-to-door glad-handing can fix that.


Good luck, we are all Dems, even though some of us prefer attacking our own right up to election time in some unfathomable triple decker four-dimensional chess move, than following through on our campaign promises. Way to get out the vote, eh?



Hands off my Social Security!
Hands off Latin America!




Just my dos centavos


robdogbucky
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
54. If "whining" constitues as
wanting universal health care, the repeal of DADT, and such, then I'm going to whine every fucking day until the goddamn administration grows a backbone and starts doing something the Democratic way versus the Bush Era way.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #54
75. Not. Shutting. Up.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #75
105. Me. Neither.
:mad:

:hi:

BTW - K & R for the OP!

:kick:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
64. Since the DLC is a different party than the mythical monstrous
left you imagine.


By the way I did not promise the repeal of DADT THIS YEAR NO LESS.

So there.

Neither was I who said that the final health care bill WOULD HAVE a Public Option and that I would not sign the damn thing into law if it didn't... that was the PRESIDENT. SO don't be too shocked when a few people hold feet to fire on those promises. That said... the people who WILL STAY HOME in November will be the Reagan Democrats... not the mythical, monstrous, probably directed (in the imagination of the centrist) from Moscow Commies.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
97. Obviously, fighting for real, substantive issues (Medicare for all, out of Iraqistan, prosecutions),
produces votes.

Bitching about how people have stopped fawning over you after you have corrupted the core ideals of what you were elected to achieve, does not.

Stop shipping our jobs overseas - fight for that and you'd sweep the elections.

Or break up the corrupt banks, Walmart or other monopolies.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
106. +1
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
116. False comparison. "Stop whining" is a message to voters.
What you call "whining' is what citizens do when they disagree with their government.
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. You're right...it's trying to pass the buck, place the blame on the base...
...either they know what they're doing and really want to fail, or they're really, really stupid.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. I do not think they want to fail
I don't think the whack-a-lib game will cost all that many votes.

The WH appears to have realized in August that the election was a lost cause and set to creating a narrative whereby true-believers could vent their disappointment on the supposed left wing or the party.

It's all inside-the-party stuff.

I do not think it affects the actual election results much either way.
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
30. They certainly seemed relieved when Brown won in MA...gave them an
excuse.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Says you.
How do you know that?
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. Right up there with "Make me do it"
when only THEY have any legal power to do anything.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
56. Yep. "Make me do it" implied we should be activists for the change
we want, and we DID that - poll after poll showed support for effective liberal ideas, and Congress & the WH were deluged with letters, emails, phone calls in support of those ideas. The groundswell was there.

And it was ignored.

Do they think we somehow didn't notice that part of it?
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DemocraticPilgrim Donating Member (472 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. At the point where President O'Donnell signs a bill making sex outside marriage illegal.
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 10:34 AM by DemocraticPilgrim
Note Reagan was once considered unviable and a joke.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I can see an Anti-Masturbation amendment to the constitution...
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
87. How many repuke CONgress critters will that bill snare?
:evilgrin:
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. I do know the mechanism of Not Voting is Republican Control
We are a nation with a government elected by the majority who vote.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. If they lose a lot of seats, they will say--Our Base stayed home.
My first question then would be Why did they stay home???

I think this is a strategy but IMO a very weak not so smart strategy.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. If they maintain control- which they probably will, the usual drama queens will STILL find a way
to try and make Democrats the villain.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
27. I think that they look at it as an easy way to get something that costs them little.
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 10:55 AM by LoZoccolo
What's it to them to go on the Internet and twist the facts to make the Democrats look like the Republicans? I think that it does cost them a lot of lost opportunity (by distra cting some of the people who are willing to make progress even if they are not willing to do so) but I think that it's so easy that they ignore that.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
55. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
58. So if they lose control, it's the liberals' fault, and if they don't lose control
they did it without the libs.

I get it.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
107. The answer will be ...
the "democratic base" can't be counted on.

Democrats will not learn the lesson that they need to be more progressive if they lose. They will learn the exact opposite message.

For some Dems in Congress, HCR and Finance reform were tough votes politically in their districts. If they get no support from Dems for making those, why should they EVER try again.

They might as well just let a corporation tell them how to vote on everything. Those levers are already in place.

If we don't get out and protect the Dems in the next 2 elections. This country will lurch to the right yet again.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
8. As a matter of fact, I was just thinking about this.
1. The antagonist realizes that complaining, while the easiest strategy, is not the most effective for achieving goals.
2. The antagonist looks for another way that can make progress while not destroying the progress that has been made.
3. The antagonist chooses one and pursues it.
4. The antagonist is effective!

Seriously, if people spent as much time pursuing their issues through advocacy groups like the ACLU, ones which work on the electorate rather than just pressure the elected officials to work against the electorate, people might have gotten somewhere. But it's not as easy as getting on the Internet and saying a few things and coming back and doing it again.

We have serious work to do; distracting the people who are doing it with a civil war within the Democratic Party has not proven effective.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
49. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
60. I didn't say that the groups didn't pursue issues.
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 12:05 PM by LoZoccolo
I said that the people who are "whining" often don't belong to the groups.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #60
95. The FUCK we don't! eom
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. The underlying assumptions behind a lot of whiner posts say otherwise.
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 03:48 PM by LoZoccolo
Again, there are people who know to work on the electorate, and others who try to nag the politicians to work against them. I would say that people who know how consensus works don't spend so much time to try to get an elected official to do something that will just be repealed in 2-4 years; they make sure that the majority would not want to repeal it.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #60
118. let me repeat the last poster..THE FUCK WE DON"T!
been a card carrying ACLU member for 35 years!

and if you think some here are "whining" you ought to see some of the inside letters I get from people in the ACLU!
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The Uncola Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-10 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #60
126. And you sir....
.. don't know what the ef you're talking about. By what standard do you presume to have ANY knowledge as to what "groups" "the people belong to."??? What an asinine statement. I and many of the others down here under the bus, were active advocates for Democrats, probably before you were born.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
94. Advocacy groups pursued the public option and were told it was "fucking retarded" to do so.
In the summer of 2009 when OFA and Dem party organizations held rallies to support health care reform, single payer advocates were ordered to put their signs away. This was because the Dem establishment was worried about the teabaggers and their accusations "government takeover" of health care. A Dem party official in my state told me this.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. Which ones? n/t
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #99
104. Happened in Arizona.
A lot of the single payer folks (who were mostly from DFA and PDA) refused and party staffers would block them from being in the view of news cameras.

It happened. It's still happening. Progressive groups are still doing their thing to mobilize support for policies in the public but the admin. and the official party structure are not supporting them.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #104
108. In Chicago, the single-payer folks brought brass knuckles and these stab things and got violent.
OK, they didn't, but I have as much evidence of that as you do of your story.

But the story makes my argument for me in two ways: single-payer is not such a bulletproof concept in the public mind yet, and there's no organized campaign to get it that way. I'm not saying you should give up on that, I'm just saying that you'd be more effective to think about how you are going to get it - even in circumstances that seem completely unfair to you - rather than defeat what others have successfully worked for. If this health care bill would have overstepped what people had wanted and got shot down, we wouldn't be talking about any health care reform for maybe another 15 years. Now we've at least established that the government can have a role in defining the terms under which something which everybody needs can be delivered, maybe there's another idea beyond that which could easily be established in the electorate.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #108
113. Look, I don't care if you don't believe me. I saw it.
Single payer is not some wacky fringe thing. And there most certainly are organized campaigns.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. So if it's important, why not find out who's putting an effective campaign together,
get in touch with them and come back here with the resources other people would need to join and propogate a solid message that the tea party would have trouble attacking and get it done, something constructive, rather than taking shots at what people have accomplished with the political circumstances we have today? You would probably get a lot of those people you are fighting with on DU on your side. I might be more receptive to a lot of progressive ideas if people made the case rather than accuse me of being a paid corporatist propagandist, but as it stands now, I see the main task as just not letting the Republicans win due to ridiculous protest tactics at the ballot box and constant verbal snipes at people who are actually getting things done.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
11. The whiners will become loyal voters when the WH starts addressing their issues favorably.
The Dems could be running on HCR if they'd fought for & passed a public option.

The Dems could be running on Wall Street reform if they'd fought for & passed re-regulation of the financial industry.

The Dems could be running on repealing DADT if they'd fought for & passed it.

The Dems could be running on middle-class tax cuts if they'd fought for & passed them.

Instead, the WH & the Dem leadership spends their time, money & precious political capital trying to appease people who will never, ever vote for them or their policies - the Teabaggers and the American Taliban.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. I'm pretty sure that the "whiners" are making themselves themselves look too expensive.
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 10:44 AM by LoZoccolo
People have been pretty creative coming up with new ways to be offended by the administration; after a while I'm sure that it looks like a lot of them look like they'll never be pleased.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
50. Proof reading is your friend n/t
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
78. You've got it
There's no point in trying to get their votes, but there is a point in showing the Independents that we don't cater to that kind of childish behavior.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #78
100. Wow.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #78
109. The independents don't like cowards, period
They prefer people who are confident about their plans, even if those plans are batshit crazy.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
26. Such a waste the past 2 years have been..
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 10:58 AM by nc4bo
It's a shame.

Just thinking back to the rhetoric of candidate Obama and how the crowds of Dems and Indies came out and showed overwhelming support on the campaign trail. Then, he won the election BECAUSE of that rhetoric then dropped ball after ball by playing bipartisan nicey-nice BS games with obst(R)uctionists from hell.

The effort was never really there at the start. What happened to the backbone?

And - now the Head Dem in-charge & Co. doesn't get why voters are so damn meh. Well, we WERE fired up, ready to go to work on real change. We did our part. In return, we get a diluted version of Candidate Obama.

I hope they ALL get a clue before 2012 rolls around.

Apologies - it's my birthday and I'm getting a sore throat, have no health insurance and the minimum cost of seeing a doc will set me back $100 give or take.

Yea - I guess I'm a whiner.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
43. They could also run on it if they fought for those things and they failed to pass
Because of Republican obstruction.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #43
59. Exactly. I'd be a LOT happier if we'd actually fought for the more
progressive agenda and failed to attain it, rather than starting somewhere in the middle and compromising down from there.

If you start at the middle, then compromise to the right, the resulting legislation MUST lean to the right, and that is the wrong direction. It is NOT change.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. No answer?
Surprise!
:eyes:

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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
14. k&r n/t
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
15. ... he whined...
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
18. Well, first they'd have to come down off that cross...
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #18
31. yeah all those poor out-of-work non-political ordinary Dems
are just a bunch of fucking martyrs
shame on them for not voting for more of the same when their lives suck ASS right now.

Ordinary *FOLKS* do not engage in political calculus. they vote their pocketbook/situation. as it has ever been.
But by all means try to redirect that vast river of reality with a few posts sticking in the riverbed

enjoy that steaming cup of smug with speaker boner fucking the country
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. As if those are the people that we're discussing.
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. oh glad that's cleared up.
so the out-of-work single mom who voted for obama but just catches soundbites in the news will easily disambiguate the two groups, right?
She won't feel patronized, right?
"Biden didn't call *me* a whiner" she'll think, right?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. If she's not totally fucked in the head..
Apparently I've got a higher opinion of out-of-work single moms than you do.
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #47
53. so members of the base who feel insulted are fucked in the head
cheeze dude. The beatings will continue until morale improves, eh?

here's a question: *WHY BOTHER* criticizing the base *at all*, any subset?
Why spend the energy? How does it gain votes?

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. Total shit for brains. Like Obama said, they have no excuse.
"*WHY BOTHER* criticizing the base *at all*"

It's not the base that's being insulted. Or pretending to be insulted, as the case may be.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
80. LOL.
so true.

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displacedvermoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #80
96. You WERE serious in #78 above!
Jeezum!!!

displaced
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
19. You are overthinking it. Stop whining and get to work
;)
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. +1
Plenty of time for whining after the teabaggers go down. Please let's not go from bad to WAYYYY WORSE! And yes the teabaggers are way worse.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
24. Please describe the mechanism whereby staying home results in repubs not taking over Congress
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Who is suggesting staying home?
I am not.

Off-hand, I cannot name anyone who is.

Kind of the ultimate straw-man... so full of strawly goodness is evolves itself into a red herring.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. The ultimate GMO straw herring. Tasteless AND unhealthy. Yum! nt
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. That's good.
For the record, I'm not claiming you are arguing for staying home. I have seen people on DU say they are though, and for those that argue that this will teach those Dems a lesson, the only lesson it will teach them is that people want a more conservative turn in national politics.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
48. The people Biden was talking about.
The people who, in your own OP, aren't voting.
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
69. I'd like to hear that too.
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TonyMontana Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
25. It's not a strategy. You're over thinking it
Quite frankly, it's just that the Democrats are CLUELESS. That's all it is. They don't know how to win elections. This is not exactly the first (or the hundred billionth) time they've shot themselves in the foot, you know. See: The entire election - 2004.

Just ignore them and vote for them anyway.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
29. The same way "Think Positive Thoughts" works when told to someone whose drowning.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
33. "deforming our good policies until they lack much power to inspire"
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 11:00 AM by BzaDem
I think that's the real problem. The bills that passed, are, by and large, the largest progressive achievements that have passed since the 60s (however better they could have been).

If a subset of progressives do not believe that, that is a problem with this subset of progressives' understanding of reality -- not a problem with Obama or the policies (relative to the previous status quo).

While pointing that out might not up Democratic turnout appreciably, when the window of possible policy shifts dramatically next year (and they are talking about how MUCH to cut spending, WHICH government agencies to starve of funds, whether to let even ONE Obama nominee through, how LONG the government shutdown will be), at least they won't be able to say they weren't warned.
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
36. It helps to have something to vote for rather than to vote out of fear of a worse outcome.
But fear of a worse alternative is about all many Democratics have as motivation.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
90. +1 nt
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pgodbold Donating Member (953 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
39. Our fault. I'm a loser baby so why don't you kill me - Beck
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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
40. You wrote...
"Centrist" Democrats have actually done all the things the left is blamed for. Centrist Dems are the ones who will stay home in November. Centrist Dems in congress are the ones who have thwarted Obama at every turn, deforming our good policies until they lack much power to inspire. These are real things. And conservative Dems are overtly disloyal and malign. So the question is, has the WH ever rolled out a strategy of demeaning centrist or even conservative Dems as whiners and malcontents? And if not, why not? It's fair question."

This irony cannot be lost on us. Consider the House and the fact that Nancy Pelosi and many progressive Democrats did their jobs, and did them right. They gave the Blue Dogs and the Corporatists in the party mostly everything they wanted. Even gave up the notion of a public option for the Senate. And what do they get for all the goods things? All their accomplishments? A defeatist base of the party that feels disillusioned, and moderate and Independents who may or may not show up to vote; or, may vote for Republicans.

When people do good things, they are often punished for them. Forget Obama and the disappointment with the Senate Democrats. Think about the House Democrats. The leadership from Nancy Pelosi and the progressives in the House. Think about all the good things, the accomplishments they made in the House. All the progress?

For those who are angry with Obama and the Senate Democrats, don't vote on their behalf. When you go in that booth to cast your vote, please vote on behalf of all the good things that Nancy Pelosi and the progressives in the House did for you. Why do you think the Republicans are pursuing members of the Congressional Black Caucus and all the good progressives like Alan Grayson? They know and understand that these are good people who have actually pushed for change.

So don't punish them by not voting or not encouraging everyone you know to vote!! Support these good folks by VOTING and by getting your family and friends to vote!!
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
42. k&r
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
44. Obama's administration telling the left to "stop whining" is a dog-whistle for the right
It is an approach that is sure to help swing fence-sitters in the center and even on the right to vote D this fall. Remember - these folks don't like liberals, and if they think Obama feels the same way, then they feel better about voting D in November.

The downside of course, is that we feel like we've been run over by a bus. But that's a price I'm willing to pay.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #44
76. OK, I stand corrected. Your post is actually a rational, probably correct answer.
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 01:26 PM by Commie Pinko Dirtbag
But not an answer that actually JUSTIFIES the assholiness.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
82. Few swing-voters attend $30,000 Dem fundraisers
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #44
115. I think this administration...
...is gambling on the notion that they've got the base, no matter what. We will vote for
Dems no matter what--because they know we loathe the Republicans and the tea partiers
more than any other political faction. Just as the conservative base votes in very high
numbers. So, they've got the liberals--and they're going for the center and some center-right
voters who may not be happy with the tea-party radicals that appear to have engulfed the
Republican party.

I dunno...that's my guess.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
45. It doesn't and they know that.
After listening to these recent statements from our President and our Vice President, I can only come to one conclusion, they want to lose.

That way, they can keep blaming the pugs.
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kctim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
46. It's a numbers game
1)
Telling a minority of you're voters who are whining to stop whining, will only result in some of them staying home and not voting for anybody. You only lose a vote.
Telling the majority of you're voters to shut-up and live with policies they do not want, will result in millions of them possibly voting for the other side. You lose a vote AND the other side gains a vote.

2)
Yes, the poor 'left' and their good policies. If only us simpletons would let the 'left' run our lives for us. Sorry, NOT going to happen. And I can guarantee you that I will not be staying home in November because I did not get the health care reform the 'left' wanted. In fact, myself and millions of others will be voting because we did not get what the 'left' wanted.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
57. When you wake up in Rand Paul and Palin's America, I don't
want to hear about "woe is me" from you. Because it is not terrible and we do have forward momentum and a base upon which we can build in several areas. We will continue to move forward unless you hand it all, tied up in a package with a bow, to the likes of the 'baggers. Do you really think that these people will give a rat's ass about your issues or concerns? Do you think that the nation can stand a few more years being run, not in to the ground, but into the abyss by the likes of these people? If you think you are so aggrieved now, just continue to help them right along. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who cannot help pull the load right now de facto is doing the work of the right wing.
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. Skidmore, ITA!!
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #57
72. Extremist fear peddling works on repugs
it doesn't work here. Palin and Paul aren't taking over. Ever.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #72
83. So you expect to find support for a left wing/progressie agenda, or
common cause at the very least, with radical rightwing off the cliff conservatives? Good luck with that one.
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #72
84. I'm not willing to take that chance, so I'm getting off my ass and voting.
The nutjob Paladino can very well become Governor of my state.
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sonomak Donating Member (147 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
61. Insults are powerful motivators
Yeah. BushCo insulted their base all the time....
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. The thought of the republican extremist being in charge is what motivates me.
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 12:12 PM by rainlillie
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #65
73. That's what they're counting one
just like fear of terra'ists and immigrants motivates the GOP base. I'm not motivated by fear. I'll vote FOR a candidate, not against someone else.
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #73
85. Whatever! I'm not sitting this one out.
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
63. Who benefits from the divide that is being created >>
The republican teaparty that's who. We better get our asses in gear and figure this thing out or our country is going to be unrecognizable under the republican teaparty leadership. You thought Bush was bad, you haven't seen anything yet. It's amazing to me that some people are doing the work of the opposition. It's as if they don't know what's at stake. WTH!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
67. It won't
fact is the "left" will show up at the polls. The Reagan Dems will not, and the base will be blamed. Pattern established since at least 1994. At which point the further driftward to the right will continue.

Jeesus H Christ I no longer recognize not just the democratic party, but this country!

It is increasingly reminding me of many nations I know that are not quite in the first world...
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rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
68. At this point I'm suspicious of anyone who encourages Democrat's , and Liberals to sit this one out.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
70. Well said. It's not a practical strategy. It's a childish attempt to shift blame and silence critics
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
71. When they grow a spine, stand up to the Right wing and stop attacking Democrats
then I'll believe that they are Democrats worthy of support; not just GOP bait-and-switch infiltrators.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
74. 70+ replies...
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #74
81. Yup... funny how that works
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Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #74
86. Their only answer is they got theirs
They got theirs so all they have is STFU.

They are doing great and don't want anyone to fuck it up for them or theirs in any way.



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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #86
92. That would seem too be so.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #74
88. Here's an answer:

The ones with the capability of self-reflection will see that, yes, a lot has been accomplished and perhaps they are being unrealistic in their expectations. They will then realize that the progress under Obama must be sustained, and that we need to keep "bending the arc" toward a better country.


The ones without the capability of self-reflection fall into two camps:

1. Those disaffected liberals that are always looking for a reason to be pissed off. They will vote or not, and nothing the administration says or does will make a difference. When the administration gives them something they SAY want (i.e. Elizabeth Warren), they ignore it. There is literally nothing Obama can do to sway these people.

2. Trolls and agent provacateurs. These people exist in the liberal blogosphere with the sole purpose of encouraging those in group 1... thus trying to drive down Democratic enthusiasm as much as possible.



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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #74
110. I answered the question in #8. n/t
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-10 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #110
121. That's about as credible as the "instant conversion" stories in Chick tracts. -nt
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-10 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #121
128. Well, it looks like you're happy with what you've got so
I probably can't keep you from doing what you're doing.
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BlueCheese Donating Member (897 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
77. Avoid attributing to malice...
... what can be adequately explained by incompetence.

I don't know if the repeated "Why can't you see how awesome we've been!" comments are part of a strategy. I do think they represent a genuine frustration that what they perceive as grand accomplishments are not so appreciated among the public. I don't know if there's more to it than that.

Once you start blaming the voters for your problems, you're in big trouble. And it turns out that insulting them doesn't seem to cause them to think better of you.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
79. It works on some people
Especially from a leader-like person. They need turnout, GOTV, not whining. So they stay stop doing it and get out and work. Many a parent might say such a thing. The POTUS often acts parent-like. Maybe he's perceiving the whiners as children and getting them to do what he wants the way he'd get a whining child to do so.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. It only works on those capable of self-reflection.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #79
93. Pathetic
:eyes:
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #79
103. Or perhaps it is just more dog whistles to the right
more anti gay, anti liberal, pro status quo rhetoric. That is what it sounds like, a public servant trying to tell the public what to do. He can not fire us, we can fire him. That is the relationship.
This year, no Obama on the Oregon ballot, so Democrats will vote willingly!!!!!! We don't like the mean style he's developed, nor the religion in the public square, you see. The name calling and such, well, we don't kick our hippies, they own half the state.
Now 2012 will be a problem here for O and Joe if they don't drop their neediness and the snark. Simple facts.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #79
117. Then I'm writing a letter to Daddy. n/t
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #79
119. I am much older than Obama and I don't need a daddy, he would not qualify !
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 11:11 PM by flyarm
I do however want a leader of my party who stops using his base as an excuse for his own failures.

And who believes in Democracy and who does not continue illegal behavior in the name of my nation and me.

And I do want a leader of my party who believes in the Constitution of this nation and the oath he took to defend and protect the constitution..so far, I have seen none of that!
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The Uncola Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-10 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #79
127. I hope for Obama's sake...
.. you are mistaken about him perceiving himself as any sort of father figure. I was an adult when he was still a child and I damn sure don't need parenting from any politician. I need honesty and leadership to follow-thru on those things they campaign on. Obama has come up short on both.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
91. Similar to the mechanism whereby "Americans are lazy!" leads to support for immigration reform.
If there's one thing Democrats are geniuses at, it's insulting the very people they're trying to persuade.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
101. Well you see the Ds in charge think that having a spine against their base
will win them votes...why they can't use said spine against the Rs is beyond my comprehension. Now, the backbone is being used all wrong but I give them credit for at least standing up to SOMEBODY! Of course it had to be us easy to get along with DFHs and Professional Lefty types BUT what they hay! It is not like I or anyone here failed in most of their promises made to get elected. Not that it matters. Whine whine whine...mmmm wine.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
102. Easy: it wins votes from centrists who are worried the Obama is too far left.

When Obama and his supporters are rude to left-wing Democrats, they're actually talking for the ears of centrist floating voters.

You pretty much answer your own question when you say "Centrist Dems are the ones who will stay home in November". I'm not a mind reader, but I think it's a fairly safe guess that what motivates Obama is the calculation that most left-wingers will vote no matter what he says, whereas appealing to centrists will lead to people who would not otherwise vote voting.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #102
111. Except that the data and the electoral history demostrates that assertion to be false
Other than that- fair reasoning.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-10 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #111
122. What data? N.T.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #102
120. oh yeah and those centrists are lining up to vote dem..what world are some of you in?
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Techn0Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
112. I was promised a pony ... but they only delivered horseshit.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-10 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
123. Still waiting for the description I see...
Plenty of, "I know you are, but what am I?", but no ideas about how this is going to help.


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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-10 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
124. It doesn't. It never has and it never will. But that isn't the reason they're doing it either.
It's called ass covering if you're being charitable, and well poisoning if you aren't. It prevents the cognitive dissonance from becoming too overpowering to the faithful in case they lose too badly.

"See! We didn't lose because we sucked and were afraid to even fight for a resolution declaring the sky blue! (And decided to declare the sky was green after a few megacorps had a word with us.) We lost because the left were saying bad things about us!"
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-10 02:59 AM
Response to Original message
125. Cause they know the left left aren't voting republican no mattter what
So, they're concentrating on not looking as left win to moderates.
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