Back to art history class, DUers: the Friday Afternoon Challenge question awaits you.

[CTyankee]

Although this unusual and complex work has been called “breathtaking” by a few art scholars, it has historically been viewed by many others as not logical or coherent. Why is it controversial?

Extra credit: what precipitated its conception?

[jdlh8894]

1. Who even went to an Art History class?

Had better things to do.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. I did.

They're these things called "electives." They're in college.

Don't recognize the altar though.

[CTyankee]

4. You're smart...

but some people really like "enrichment." Probably my downfall...LOL!

[blondeatlast]

6. I did and to this day, I'm entranced by art and especially architecture.

The best 2 years of my life, bar none.

[CTyankee]

15. I think art history for non art majors is a great thing. Art speaks to one's soul.

And, as someone once said, art always saves you...

[blondeatlast]

18. At the time I was an art major but I changed to English.

But sometimes I think of retaking AH just for the great discussions.

[CTyankee]

59. Fun stuff...

[malaise]

73. Art is great

:applause:

[old mark]

12. When I took it, there WAS nothing better to do - I loved it! Wound up with

a second minor in fine art, but I have no idea on this question.

mark

[Jamastiene]

23. I did.

Most people would think of me as some rural country bumpkin, and I am to a certain degree, but taking the art class didn't kill me. I was happy it was available as my humanities elective, because it was my first choice. Too bad they canceled Spanish for my other elective I needed to take. I ended up forced into Psychology instead of Spanish. I'm just glad Art wasn't canceled. I loved it!

[Melissa G]

99. Me. Required for even a partial art degree.

The rest of my bachelor's degree is in world religion.

[blogslut]

2. The outside is inside?

?

[CTyankee]

5. It looks that way, doesn't it? But actually, it wasn't uncommon for its time...

[blogslut]

7. Oh well

That's my big guess. I didn't take art history but I would liked to. :hi:

[blondeatlast]

14. Well worth the money, I still have my earlier edition from

the early '90s:

Janson's History of Art:

http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=9780205697397

It's a nice substitute, but the discussions we had were pretty amazing, too.

[Brickbat]

8. The architectural part looks later than the icon inside it.

Also, it was not unusual to have six-pointed stars in some areas; but is that part of the controversy?

[CTyankee]

10. No. But I wondered about that too...nt

[Brickbat]

11. Sometimes, if the architect was Jewish, he would incorporate the design into his work.

Sometimes it was accepted, and sometimes not. Hmmmm....back to pondering...(and I'm another one who had some art history in college; loved it).

[CTyankee]

81. Your first statement was right on point...it was later...I mean in style...

[Duer 157099]

9. The controversy is because it's made completely of

Legos!

:hi:

[CTyankee]

13. Wouldn't that be something!

:hi:

[SoCalDem]

60. I was going to guess .....cheese

:rofl:

[blondeatlast]

16. Six-sided star? As to what precipated it, no idea. Is this in the Czech Republic, by any chance?

It looks vaguely familiar.

[CTyankee]

17. Not the star, as far as I know. And no, not in the Czech Republic...nt

[MuseRider]

19. My big brave guess :-P

I don't know much about art history but I would say Spanish?

Is this the famous cathedral that is still being built? It is a project over generations?

LOL, I have no clue.

[CTyankee]

25. No. not either.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. The pinnacles suggest moorish or byzantine influence. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. Is it in the Hagia Sophia? n/t

[CTyankee]

26. No, not there...I dream of going to the Hagia Sophia someday, tho!

[blondeatlast]

58. Of all the places in the world I want to see, it tops my list. nt

[CTyankee]

61. I am in dumbfounded disbelief at the color photos I've seen of the Hagia Sophia!

Completely carried away...

[Sanity Claws]

21. Is it the Mezquita in Cordoba, Spain?

edited for spelling

[CTyankee]

27. It is not.

[NYC_SKP]

24. NYC_SKP guess #1:

Cathedral Basílica de la Inmaculada Concepción?

:shrug:

[CTyankee]

28. No...sadly...where is that?

[NYC_SKP]

37. Matzatlan.

I got there by Googling "star of David" with cathedral.

My tongue in cheek guess was that the hexagram might be the purported incongruency.

Other than that, what I see here is a combination of influences, design features and flourishes that all come from different sources.

I cannot, however, place this particular structure/interior/construction.

:hi:

[CTyankee]

44. Think of in what era of art such flourishes would have been used. That will lead you to the answer.

I think...

[TrogL]

Baroque, but that doesn't help me

[CTyankee]

62. Baroque wasn't the only era that had certain flourishes...nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

78. Rococo?

The 2nd photo looks vagely Spanish or Portugese.

[CTyankee]

91. I know it looks a bit like it, but it is not...however, some art styles got "that way"

after a while, if you know what I mean...

[NYC_SKP]

67. Well, era, there's any number of periods of high levels of trade.

And places, like Venice, where multiple cultures met and exchanged ideas and influences:

The Monreale Cloisters, Sicily:

[CTyankee]

75. They are fabulous and I've seen them, but had not to do with this work.

I loved Sicily, tho...

[Crystal Clarity]

29. It reminds me a bit of the Church of the Nativity

in Bethlehem. I was there 10 years ago and this looks familiar.

But The church of the Nativity was built way back in the 1rst of 2nd century... too early I would think

[CTyankee]

42. Yep.

[MuseRider]

30. BZTTTTTTTT!

I was wrong but I eagerly await the answer. It is a gorgeous structure.

[catrose]

31. It's driving me crazy that I can't locate this picture on the web

I see the rose window, a Gothic feature, though I want to say it's a bit later than the 12th century.

However, I also see what I think is a Star of David multiple times...and no crosses. If it's a synagogue, that would start a controversy, depending on its location. Unfortunately, many of the oldest synagogues have been destroyed.

So tell us already!

[CTyankee]

33. Hint: not a synagogue.

[blueamy66]

32. Was it a mosque that is now

a Christian church?

[CTyankee]

35. no. Quite the contrary.

[Crystal Clarity]

43. I swear it looks too familiar to have seen in pictures

I've been to Churches and Mosques all through Israel and the West Bank and feel as if I've seen something like this... Maybe it's just a case of deja vue but...

Ok throwing this out... Hebron has a Mosque that houses the tomb of Sarah. Am I way off?

[CTyankee]

46. Yes, you are.

But you probably haven't really seen this in pictures of famous works in famous places of art. I don't know why. It's been around a long time...and some people really love it...it has its fan club as it were, but perhaps not in the U.S. as much, but I don't know...

[catrose]

54. In that case...

Lala Mustafa Pasha Mosque, originally St. Nicholas Cathedral on Cyprus, controversial because the French Lusignans brought Gothic archictecture to their new domain (and the bishop stole the building fund).
Or the Selimiye Mosque, formerly St. Sophia's
Anywhere the Ottomans tromped...

[CTyankee]

55. Wrong place in the world...

[Brickbat]

34. I'm guessing not Italian, but French or German.

Late baroque?

[CTyankee]

36. not late baroque...

[MuseRider]

38. I have to guess again before I leave just for fun.

Russian? There are some similarities, although I am no expert and my jet lag was interfering with my observation, to some of the cathedrals we toured in St. Petersburg, maybe Moscow but all I really remember there cathedral-wise was seeing St. Basil. Probably nothing more than the amazing intricacies. I have no experience with this but boy do I appreciate you posting this. I love to learn about art.

I do remember that you could stand in some of them and look around for a lifetime and never see all that was carved or shaped in the walls.

[CTyankee]

40. Muse, you have a piece of it. The intricacies of this work are amazing...and one

of it's detractors' major problems with it...

Too bad you have to go,tho...you are onto something...

[Crystal Clarity]

57. Trinity Cathedral in St Petersburg?

ETA there was a fire and they had to rebuild.

[CTyankee]

71. Wrong part of Europe...

[Duer 157099]

39. Does it have anything to do with an animal?

It looks like maybe some horribly wealthy person built a cathedral for a dead pet.

[CTyankee]

41. It was built for someone but not a dead pet. In that era, that sort of thing didn't happen.

nt

[Duer 157099]

45. Well that's why I thought it might be controversial

Although, imho it's quite ugly and chaotic so that's probably some of the controversy.

Plus, being made of Legos.

[CTyankee]

47. Think of who might consider it as you do...

[Duer 157099]

48. Anyone with a sense of aesthetics?

heh

Probably the Catholics, I don't see any crosses anywhere, that probably pissed them off.

[CTyankee]

51. It didn't piss off the Catholics. Just the art historians...nt

[Duer 157099]

56. Was it moved?

Is it currently in it's original location?

[CTyankee]

72. No. It has always been there. It was made to be there.

And there it has stayed.

[Brickbat]

49. Was its very ornateness part of the controversy?

I know the Catholic Church went through a time of decrying rococo work in churches because of its excess.

[CTyankee]

52. Part of its ornateness yes...but not why you think...

[blueamy66]

50. St. Patrick's Cathedral

in NY?

on edit: Naw...a co-worker told me to try this...but I don't think so. :=)

[CTyankee]

53. ...sorry...this was before St. Patrick's was built ...or even dreamed of...nt

[blueamy66]

63. Yeah, see my edit to my post

I should have known better...

[Brickbat]

64. Is it the angel on the pedestal?

I've never seen anything like that.

[CTyankee]

65. HINT, as I go off to dinner...

It is Gothic in design and considered "expressive" art.

[Canuckistanian]

68. ivory and a nursing madonna?

my best guest - Hubby called me in for the consult - by TarnishedAngel

[blondeatlast]

66. Edit: nevermind. After reading another response, I know it can't be in US. nt

[IcyPeas]

69. I think I was here last month......

if I am right, there are 140 "green men" hiding in the ornate stonework within the "chapel".

Also one of the stonemasons was killed by the master stonemason for doing a better job than he could've done?


???????

yes? no?

[CTyankee]

70. I don't think so...never heard of that...

you can see this today...still in its same place...nice...

[IcyPeas]

83. oh, I thought it might've been Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland.

[CTyankee]

87. Not Scotland...

[CTyankee]

74. HINT: ANOTHER VIEW OF THIS WORK

[blondeatlast]

76. No idea, but I want to see it for real someday.

It might not be a popular topic here, but all religious art and architecture I've seen is astonishingly beautiful and moving.

[CTyankee]

77. What is interesting is how popular art changes in each culture and century.

This is an example of that. It really went "out of style" in a big way. But today, some art historians absolutely LOVE it.

It's amazing. One art critic called this "a piece of rhetoric." I find that interesting...

[CTyankee]

84. I am actually going to see it next week...I'm very excited....it will be such fun.

We are three broads abroad and will be hard at work at the art in a certain city...lots of fun. We had a great time in Portugal last year...

[blondeatlast]

88. Please, please, please share pics!

[CTyankee]

93. I am the world's worst picture taker...really BAD. So I will deal in my words and

try to give a word picture and fill in with google images of what I am talking about...this is a serious art study with profs from Trinity College. I have researched for over a year for this trip...I cannot tell you how psyched I am...I will make a report with some pics...thanks for idea!

[blondeatlast]

95. Drink it in for me--of all the places I MUST see!

wow, pardon my envy... :hi:

[CTyankee]

98. It is Florence, Italy, now that the work has been guessed.

I was there in 06 but not long enough to see all that needed to be seen. Even with a full trip here I won't be able to do everything I would like to do...it is a city rich in art and in literary figures...everyone came here, American writers, German writers and English writers...it is a treasure trove.

Sadly, this will probably be my last trip abroad, perhaps forever. My finances have suffered a reverse...I hope for a turnaround but I cannot be sure...oh, well, I have had some fabulous experiences so I can't be sorry for myself!

I'll do a little report when I get back. I don't want to bore people...

[elleng]

100. Not a LITTLE report, yank!

and you know some of us will be thinking of you A LOT!!!

Viaggio sicuro!!!!

:hi:

[elleng]

103. FAVOLOSO!!!!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

105. self-delete

[unapatriciated]

79. Notre Dame in Paris?

[CTyankee]

80. No,but it is gothic...

[unapatriciated]

82. Than it must be this one.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/spain/barcelona-sagrada-familia

[CTyankee]

85. Oh, dear, I have seen La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona and this is NOT it.

Wrong country, wrong century and wrong artist...but in a funny way I can see how you think this might be Gaudi...I guess nothing is really new in art, century to century....things just get passed along...

[blondeatlast]

86. Is it in Paris? nt

[CTyankee]

90. No.

[phasma ex machina]

96. That was my guess as well.

:fistbump:

[LiberalAndProud]

89. Chiesa di Orsanmichele -Florence, Italy

Andrea Orcagna's bejeweled Gothic Tabernacle

It used to be a grain market.

So why was it controversial?

[CTyankee]

92. Tell me how you knew it first...

[LiberalAndProud]

94. I wish I could say I had been there. Sadly, no.

Found it here.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=35802588

[CTyankee]

97. Here is one "official" criticism. But see also Michael Levey and R.W.B Lewis

who beg to differ on the merits of this work!

Orcagna’s Tabernacle in the Orsanmichele in Florence.

Most scholars view this unusual altarpiece as a conscious effort to return to pre-Giottesque conceptions of religious art. Orcagna rejected the logical and coherent spatial articulation of Giotto and his followers to return to the tense, cramped abstract space of earlier days. He filled the gold openings of the frame with insistently plastic and full forms, often using contradictory, devices. The figure of Christ, for example, is brought forward to the foreground plane by his gestures to St. Thomas and St. Peter and simultaneously pushed back in space by the way the adoring angels overlap the seraphim of his mandorla.

The explanation for Orcagna's return to an earlier artistic conception is probably the shattering effect of the plague, or Black Death, of 1348. The survivors of the epidemic interpreted it as evidence of God's anger and vengeance against the moral corruption of mankind. Their efforts to appease Him took the form of returning to the sanctified ways of their ancestors. Artists, too, rejected the realism of their immediate predecessors, Giotto and his school, for the abstraction of late-13th-century art. Orcagna's Strozzi Altarpieces the finest work of the period illustrating this attitude.

In other words, the style of the day had passed him by. Giotto had eclipsed Orcagna's school of art. And it didn't help that the Early Renaissance was coming quickly by 1400 (Orcagna's work was in the 1300s). So Orcagna was somewhat ignored by the art critics and put down as not being "with it." But some art historians are showing a renewed interest in what is called the "Italian Gothic" which this is an example of...

[Melissa G]

101. Thanks for the great read! n/t

[elleng]

102. Buona e grazie!!!!!!

MOLTE grazie!!!

[CTyankee]

104. Oh, it was MY fun! The tabernacle is so astonishing, even tho I can't make up my mind

whether I think it is "breathtaking" or "incoherent." I can imagine that such a momentous event as the Black Death would cause people to be a bit unravelled and more than a little superstitious, esp. in the 1300s.

Leaving at 1 today for JFK. I'll think of you...who knows, someday if things get better moneywise...another art trip!

[rusty fender]

106. Thank you for the Art HIstory lesson!

I am looking forward to more of them---:applause:

[elleng]

107. You're on your way!!!

Breathtakingly incoherent might be the 'answer!'

Thinking of you!

E

[blueamy66]

108. You are good!

nt