"Alternative lifestyle"....offensive?

[Narkos]

We just had a briefing with our EO rep, and he was discussing the implications of repealing DADT. At one point, he referred to gays and lesbians as living an "alternative lifestyle". I thought for someone whose job it is to train others to be tolerant and respectful of other people's differences might have refrained from that terminology. I'm not gay, but if I was I might find the term "alternative lifestyle" offensive because it implies that my "lifestyle" is necessarily freely chosen and/or that it implies something abnormal. On the other hand, there may be gays and lesbians who may embrace that term for reasons of their own. I almost spoke up, but wasn't sure how to interpret that particular phrase. Any thoughts?

[Lyric]

1. Yes, it's very offensive.

Just like "sexual preference". Both of them imply that we're only with partners of our own genders because we're indulging a temporary whim.

[FreeState]

40. +1000

Its language that has been repeated over and over by bigots - and unfortunately I have heard allies and members of the community use it without thinking.

[pinboy3niner]

52. I'm not gay, but even I know that term is offensive

Especially offensive is that a supposed EO rep is so clueless about his own job!

[Orrex]

2. I've never heard a left-handed person referred to as living an "alternative lifestyle," for instance

Even when used innocently and with no intended subtext, the phrase "alternative lifestyle" explicitly describes a category of person as outside the mainstream. Further, as you note, it suggests that the relevant aspect of personality is a simple matter of preference lightly chosen.

[LostinVA]

3. It is horribly offensive

A lifestyle is how you chose to live (no kids, urban, rural, athletic, whatever). And, using "alternative" is just an extra slap in the face.

[Sapphocrat]

4. Extremely offensive.

This is my life, not a "lifestyle," and my life is an "alternative" to nothing but my death.

[HillWilliam]

55. Boomp! There it is

exactly what I was too late to post. Being hyper-religious is a lifestyle. Being a clueless asshole in an HR suit is a lifestyle. Being gay is how I was born, what I am; ie, my life.

Oh, and hey, howya been? LTNS (I don't get out much any more LOL) :hi:

[uncommon]

5. It's stupid and meant to create an "other" AND to imply that not only is this a choice, but it is

a bad or at the very least risque choice.

[madokie]

6. Thats the part that pisses me off the most

It is not a choice. I ask those who imply that it is a choice, just when at what age did you decide you weren't going to be gay, they always give me that lost in the headlight look.

[Narkos]

8. What if it was a choice? Would it matter?

I personally think that sexual orientation choice, but when we frame the issue of homosexuality that way it can also be turned around to be mean that it is an affliction. In other words, would it be okay for us to condemn homosexuality if it was found to be choice? Of course not.

[LostinVA]

9. Sexual orientation is not a choice

:wtf:

[madokie]

12. Some people

shaking head at the question asked of me.

[LostinVA]

15. Yup

[madokie]

11. It would never be ok

If it was truly a choice then who is to judge someone else's choices? I mean WTF

[uncommon]

14. I agree - using "it's not a choice" as an argument can be turned around to mean

that if it is proven somehow to be a choice (I don't think it is), then it is wrong after all - and if agreed that it isn't a choice, it would be treated as a disease.

Neither of these is okay. We need to just accept people as they are and treat everyone equally.

[bluestateguy]

7. It's offensive and inaccurate if it refers to gay people

On the other hand someone who is, well, strange, might fit that description, like say an eccentric person who likes to collect air sick bags as a hobby.

[hfojvt]

18. "What's bizarre? We're all pretty bizarre.

Some of us are just better at hiding it, that's all." The Breakfast Club

[Odin2005]

10. It's a way of portraying homosexuality as "just another un-American thing those dirty hippies do".

It's Boomer-speak that makes us younger folks eyes roll. My reaction is "even if it is a lifestyle, SO FUCKING WHAT?".

[Narkos]

21. "even if it is a lifestyle, SO FUCKING WHAT?" LOL! I love it!

That's exactly what I wanted to say today!

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. Boomer speak? Really? So someone being a boomer is someone who is

living an alternative lifestyle or something?

It really sucks to attack prejudice with terms of prejudice.

ON EDIT:
Who the fuck do you think was at Stonewall in 69?

[Odin2005]

32. I was meaning more how RW Boomers rant and rave.

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. Then please, specify RW boomers in the future -

you can't classify an entire generation, particularly when that generation includes both the hippies and the guardsmen that shot the hippies; the SDS and the guys who volunteered for Vietnam; the Stonewall rioters and the police who started the riot.

It kind of upsets this old boomer.

[Odin2005]

45. My bad!

:(

[Dappleganger]

13. They say anything to make it not normal.

What alternative universe do they live in?

[McCamy Taylor]

16. If you are trying to fit it, it is offensive. If you are trying to stand out, it is not.

[hfojvt]

17. I love the smell of righteous indignation in the morning

it smells os unlike victory.

If that terms is offensive, then what is the non-offensive alternative (oops, I said alternative, my bad)? Is it supposed to be pervect?*


* an inside joke for those who have read the MYTH series by Robert Aspirin. But also, I thought that 'alternative lifestyle' was supposed to be the non-offensive term replacing the offensive term 'pervert' or 'abnormal'. It is meant to be inclusive and tolerance enhancing, because just as you expect others to respect TOUR alternatives and lifestyles, you can do the same for others. YOUR in this case, is the heteros, although many of us are also living the alternative lifestyles of singlehood, shacking up, promiscuity and serial monogamy that civilised society used to frown at.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

23. geez... you don't get the issue at all

Orientation is not a LIFESTYLE

Sheesh!

This is not a hollow political correctness thing. It is a basic frame of the concept thing.

[uncommon]

24. Why is there any need to say it at all?

The media and people have a need to use the word "lifestyle" to distance their own life and choices from those they do not find palatable.

There is no need for the phrase to exist - at least not in this context.

[Sapphocrat]

33. You really mean this?

Yes, I'm serious: Are you really saying you believe "alternative lifestyle" is a "the non-offensive term replacing the offensive term 'pervert' or 'abnormal'"?

Would you also say that "retard" is the "non-offensive term replacing 'moron' or 'idiot'"?

For the moment, never mind how people are making it very clear right in this very thread just how offensive "alternative lifestyle" as a synonym for "gay" is. For the moment, I'll even put aside the concept of "tolerance" (which implies that I am a thing to be tolerated, not a human being to be accepted).

Forget all that for the moment, and please answer this question:

How can a term be even remotely "inclusive" when it draws such a distinct line between "the norm" and "not the norm" -- i.e., "the abnormal"?

[hfojvt]

42. so far, there are less than 30 people claiming offense

the reason I think it is non-offensive, or should be, is because it is inclusive. Because we all have lifestyles, like I said. Therefore, we sort of all have this idea that we have a right to live our lifestyles without a bunch of busy bodies telling us what to do or how to live. As such, I think it puts homosexuality on the same plane as any other way of living. Do you want to own a home? You have a right to buy one, if you can afford it. Do you want to have kids? You have a right to have kids. Do you want to live with somebody without getting married? You have a right to do that. Do you want to take a lover of the same sex? You have a right to do that too.

Seems to me that the term is likely to make heteros identify with GBLT, that they too, have a right to their own lifestyle - even one that is different from the majority. In some sense probably all of us do things that many other people do not do. In that sense GLBT lifestyles join an ocean of alternatives, and freedom of choice is a cherished right for many.

[Bluenorthwest]

53. You quoted Bob Asprin, and you are not worthy

Allow me to point out that you use 'lifestyle' as an additional definer of heterosexuality, but as the definition of homosexuality. In your own prose, heterosexuals have various lifestyles, but homosexuality is a lifestyle. See the problem? To have a thing is not the same as to be a thing. Sexual orientation is not a matter of style. I certainly have a lifestyle, it has nothing to do with being gay, that is part of my identity, not one of a set of habits or choices or stylistic preferences. Where I live is a lifestyle, who I love is a state of being. One is like ordering dinner, the other is like drawing breath.
Being gay is not a choice. Being a fool is.

[NMMNG]

63. How many would be enough for you?

so far, there are less than 30 people claiming offense

How many do you require before you consider our concerns significant? 100? 1,000? 1,000,000?



I get where you're coming from now. It's just like those fundies who say "Gays only comprise a tiny percentage of the population. Why should we re-write our laws to accommodate them?" In other words, there just aren't enough of us to matter because we're a minority. What we think and feel, how we're harmed by what others do is unimportant. We're too insignificant to even figure out how we're affected by the actions of others. It's up to straight people to decide what's best for us, and to tell us how things they do affect us. Got ya.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

74. The silent ones are still reeling from your sheer ignorance.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

70. It's no more a lifestyle than being black is a lifestyle.

The term is "sexual orientation." I'm shocked (though maybe not) that some DUers don't know this.

[Solly Mack]

19. I think so. It implies that sleeping, eating, working, shopping, paying bills

buying a house, going to school, to the movies, to concerts, scrubbing the toilets,reading a book,picking your nose, scratching your ass, raising kids, mowing the lawn, falling in love (the list goes on - is somehow "different" when a gay person does it. It's not just living your life when a gay person does it...it's "alternative"...it's "different"...it's not "like us"...it's distancing language.

[Narkos]

22. I like the phrase "distancing language", sums it up perfectly. Thanks. n/t

[realisticphish]

20. I think it's an artifact of past social conventions

it replaced more hateful terms like "pervert," etc. But now? It's outdated, and while I'm not gay and can't make a claim to its offensiveness, it's both inaccurate and perpetuates the "other" attitude.

[NMMNG]

25. Yes

Being gay is no more a "lifestlyle" than is being straight.


Religion is a lifestyle.

Vegetarianism is a lifestyle.

Living in Beverly Hills is a lifestyle.

Being gay (or bisexual, or straight) is an orientation.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

27. Collecting vintage pinball machines is an alternative lifestyle.

Sexual orientation is not.

Tell that to the EO rep. By the way, what the lovemaking netherworld is an "EO rep"?

[Narkos]

31. Equal Opportunity rep

he's a nice enough guy, but boy, he's just not cut out for the job!

[FirstLight]

28. Hey, then what's a good term?

I do work for a local wedding minister, and we have used that term in reference to LGBT weddings/spiritual committments
we have a webpage for alternative weddings/spiritual committments... because sometimes seniors don't want to legally marry, and because we are still waiting for Prop 8 dust to settle...

I would love a lesson in etiquitte, because it's hard for a straight woman to know what's okay and what's not

(if you want to read the website, PM me and please give me your feedback. I'd appreciate it.

[Sapphocrat]

34. How about just eliminating any term whatsoever?

Our wedding officiant -- the wonderful http://www.sanfranciscoweddingofficiant.com/">Rev. Sheila Kappeler, who I recommend to everyone, gay or straight -- simply says: "I officiate weddings for ALL couples!"

How hard is that? Why separate out gay couples and isolate them in their own corner of your Web site?

My wife and I are married. We're not "gay-married." We're simply married. We didn't have a "gay wedding" -- we had a wedding. We didn't have a "gay wedding cake," and we didn't go on a "gay honeymoon," and my mother-in-law has not somehow been transformed into a "gay mother-in-law" -- she's simply my mother-in-law.

Why make the distinction?

Here's something to think about with your wedding business:

If my wife and I had come across the words "alternative lifestyle" on a Web site while shopping for an officiant, we would have scratched that officiant off our list immediately -- why would we want to be married by someone who sees us as different (read: odd, novel, abnormal) from any other couple in love?

And when asked by friends (gay or straight) for wedding advice, we would have remembered that "alternative lifestyles" officiant, and advised against using him/her.

And for a wedding officiant to use it, it just sounds to me like the officiant has no clue, doesn't care to have a clue, and is just trying to pick up some extra money by exploiting us 'mos.

Yes, the words you use are really, really that important. And "alternative lifestyle" is really, really that offensive.

[FirstLight]

38. she isn;t one of those who doesn;t care...

I think it may be one of those things where generationally, she is USED to there being a differentiation. As a therapist, she has helped many people with coming out, family issues and communication, etc. I think she wanted to make the differentiation to honor her gay and lesbian clients, letting them know she has a unique understanding. She doesn;t see the love as any different, far from it...she's a total shaman-type and very hippie...but still has several friends and clients who say they want the distinction...


so I guess it just depends how to come across as honoring, rather than patronizing. :shrug:

[Sapphocrat]

39. But, see, I would never know that...

...as a person shopping around for an officiant. She may never know how many people (like me) she would turn right off with "alternative lifestyle."

How about canning that awful phrase, and emphasizing the "honoring" thing? "We honor all commitments."

I can understand wanting to know they're included, but it sounds weird to me that any same-sex couple would react positively to their nuptials being referred to as "alternative," as if they couldn't have the "real thing," so they have to settle for some sort of second-rate pseudo-marriage.

Can you hear how it sounds to me?

Just out of curiosity, is she in a state that has legal SSM? Or are "weddings" really just limited to non-legally-binding "commitment ceremonies"?

I ask because it would make more sense to me if she were in a place where LGBTs have no hope of ever being legally married -- meaning, maybe they'd be more conditioned to settling for separate but equal.

Yes, if you tell me she's in any marriage-equality state, or even California or New York, I will be blown away.

[FirstLight]

43. Stateline NV

she does some CA weddings, but is licensed for NV primarily.

Thank you for your opinion, I don;t think we ever thought about it like that. The spiritual comittment is the only option right now, she has not had the opportunity to do a "legal" same sex marriage, and we were both really bummed about it when prop 8 went through, hopefully we will be able to have some weekend elopement specials for same sex couples exclusively to celebrate the overturn. that would be cool i think.

again, thanks for the honest input and other angle, as a copywriter, sometimes I don;t see the meaning behind the words ...you know?
:)

[slackmaster]

29. Outdated and simplistic, offensive to those who choose to be offended by it.

As a divorced empty-nester who presently has no intent of marrying or starting another family, I could be accused of living an alternative lifestyle.

It doesn't bother me. I've had more than enough of kids in the house, and I doubt that I could ever tolerate another adult's mis-handling of my cookware and tools.

[NMMNG]

35. Oh please

Being divorced is a marital status, not a "lifestyle". Nobody is suggesting rights be taken away from divorced people. Nobody is holding up divorced people as a sign of what's wrong with society. Nobody claims divorced people are worse than terrorists. They do all of the above with those they claim are living "alternative lifestyles".

Stop demeaning people who are rightfully offended by degrading terminology. We're not engaging in faux outrage, and it's not a fucking choice.

[slackmaster]

47. Living alone is a lifestyle. Not attempting to breed another family is a lifestyle.

Nobody is holding up divorced people as a sign of what's wrong with society.

When I was a kid, being divorced carried a heavy stigma. There are plenty of people who still feel that way about it.

Stop demeaning people who are rightfully offended by degrading terminology. We're not engaging in faux outrage, and it's not a fucking choice.

People who concern themselves with other peoples' negative view of their lives need to grow a thicker skin. What difference does it make what someone else thinks? If they start actively oppressing you, that's a different matter.

ETA people who use terminology you find "degrading" may simply have a limited vocabulary. They're repeating a learned phrase. Maybe you could teach them to use a more appropriate term - Or maybe to drop it altogether.

[Lyric]

41. "who choose to be offended by it"

Yes, because we're all a bunch of whiny, poutraging pony-demanders aren't we? If only we'd just shut up and stop "choosing" to be offended!

:sarcasm:

:banghead:

[slackmaster]

48. We're talking about mere words here, not sticks and stones

:hi:

[The Philosopher]

51. In some cases

Words lead to stick and stones. This is one of them.

[slackmaster]

56. Please point out where someone saying the words "alternative lifestyle" led to violence

:hi:

[The Philosopher]

57. Really?

Is that a serious request?

[slackmaster]

60. I'll take that response as an indication that you can't give a specific example

Thanks.

[The Philosopher]

61. Actually...

I can answer the question. It's just that...I'm astonished, is all. I didn’t know if you were being sarcastic, argumentative, or whatever.

Anyway, a visit to http://www.thetrevorproject.org would give you plenty of examples.

But, let’s assume you roll your eyes at that.

Words can act as a psychological prompt that helps create a culture. So can a concept, which a word essentially is.

In this case, saying “Alternative Lifestyle” creates an impression that “it’s just the way you live.” Not like breathing is “just the way you live,” or eating, or going to the bathroom, or anything that any human being needs to survive. At all. Those things aren’t like having purple hair or a slew of tattoos or supporting a different religion from your neighbors around you. Because when you say “alternative lifestyle,” you need to ask the question “Alternative to what?” The answer is always going to be, “To the rest of society.” Meaning, what the majority does.

Saying “alternative lifestyle” then suggests that you’re doing something similar to going through a teenage phase. You’ll grow out of it. If you don’t, that doesn’t mean you can’t. Because it’s just a lifestyle. So when we refuse to allow you protection from discrimination because we believe you’re going to hell, it’s no problem. You’re just going through a phase. With enough guidance you’ll grow out of it. It’s not that difficult, because you’re an adult. And Jesus is on your side.

I’m going to stop there. If you haven’t gotten the point by now, you really need to go to that website and read “Dear Trevor.” Read everything. If, after reading, you think the phrase “Alternative Lifestyle” is harmless. Then I don’t know what to say.

Without foul language, anyway.

[slackmaster]

64. Great example of alternative logic on your part

:hi:

[The Philosopher]

87. Hrm?

Is this where I'm supposed to say that YOU are the one living in an alternative reality where the laws of physics are well understood and different from what this reality uses? Or is that your way of ignoring the people hurt by language that other people think is "only words."

Oh well. At least I posted that link. I hope it's useful to someone, because it's a great resource not only for those who need answers, but also for those who never even thought of being in other people's shoes and want to complain why "those people" complain.

[Bluenorthwest]

54. The Constitution is made entirely of words....

[LanternWaste]

67. Much like declarations of war.

"We're talking about mere words here..."

Much like declarations of war... unless of course you request additional qualifiers.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

72. Sticks and stones don't happen in a vacuum.

First comes dehumanization. Not that you'd have any concept of that.

[slackmaster]

76. There you go. You're attempting to dehumanize me by saying I have no concept of dehumanization

And it doesn't bother me a bit.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

79. If you call that dehumanization, you need to get out more.

And don't even try to make the comparison. I'm pointing out your shortcomings as a result of your own actions. That can't be compared to homophobia at all.

[slackmaster]

82. Further attempt at dehumanization, suggesting that I don't "get out" enough

You really have no way of discussing this without making it personal, do you?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

84. Because you're impossible to talk to.

You keep switching between saying orientation is a lifestyle and it isn't, then insult gay people for "choosing" to be offended by it, and now *you* want to play the victim? Get real.

[LanternWaste]

65. As are all insults.

"offensive to those who choose to be offended by it..."

As are all insults.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

71. And this is something you were born as?

Oh, it isn't? Then there's no comparison. You choose to not start a family. Gay people don't choose to be gay.

[slackmaster]

75. You're right on the money, and it seems we agree on the core issue here...

Lifestyle is not synonymous for sexual orientation, nor is it necessarily a euphemism for sexual orientation.

Lifestyle is freely chosen.

Sexual orientation is not.

Not all homosexuals live lifestyles that could readily be classified as "homosexual lifestyles". I daresay most do not - Most LGBT people I know are single and live alone, with no family and no intention of starting one, JUST AS I DO.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

77. Agree on what?

You pushed aside the concerns gay people have with the term, so it clearly isn't on your radar.

[slackmaster]

80. The term "lifestyle" has a broad range of meanings

It's not always about sexual orientation.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

81. One meaning it never has is relating to sexual orientation.

So now you do think it applies to orientation? :wtf:

[slackmaster]

83. I've heard it used as a euphemism for sexual orientation

Haven't you?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

86. That doesn't make it right or even correct.

What don't you understand about this?

[ampad]

30. I will never understand some people

I mean some people are beyond hope. Yes it is offensive but you have to remember some folks cannot wrap their head around the fact that some people are gay. Nope never in a million years will they be able to understand that some people are naturally attracted to the same sex. Nope just not normal for some folks. These are the people that repeat nonsense such as a Eagle is not an animal but a bird and repeat that nonsense as a fact. They think think and behave this way because if they were to actually stray from what they considered safe or perhaps utilize critical thinking skills their little heads would explode. It is sad to hear that people are still claiming that sexual orientation is a choice or a lifestyle.

[BreweryYardRat]

37. Mildly offensive.

Being LGBT isn't a lifestyle, it's genetic.

An example of an "alternative lifestyle" is someone who's into hardcore BDSM.

[Initech]

44. Next time that gets brought up use George Carlin's quote:

"You know what a moronic term lifestyle is? Just remember that Attila The Hun had an active outdoor lifestyle!"

[JerseygirlCT]

46. Not gay either, but I'd find that objectionable too -

first, as you say, it continues the silly notion that being gay is a "lifestyle choice", not something intrinsic to the person.

"Lifestyle" implies something frivolous - like buying a particular sort of car, or vacationing in a particular place.

And of course "alternative" implies that the default - the "normal" - is being straight. This isn't a case of normal and abnormal (or alternative) any more than blue eyes are alternative.

[Robyn66]

49. Very offencive, it implies choice (nt)

[old mark]

50. Stupid, thoughtless and inappropriate disguised as "sensitivity"...

Besides, who wants to be "tolerated", anyway? I have always found the idea of that to be offensive, too. To me it implies that you are being "allowed" to mingle with the desirable people, even though they find you offensive...they are making an effort to put up with you. Why is that desirable?

We need some different terms...


mark

[Zhade]

58. Highly offensive. It's not a lifestyle, it's the reality of our lives.

NT!

[arbusto_baboso]

59. That's nothing. Our EO rep said, "We can't discriminate against people who choose to live a gay....

lifestyle".

I tried to school him about how he was setting himself and our agency up for lawsuits by using that particular verbal construction (as well as throw in a bit about how offensive the LGBTQ community tends to find that usage) but he was completely clueless. He remians clueless to this day.

So much for government agencies being a unionized nirvana for racial, ethnic, religouis and sexual minorities...

[NMMNG]

62. Somehow I think his obtuseness is somewhat willfull

"We can't discriminate against people who choose to live a gay lifestyle"


It sounds like he's using those words specifically. He knows the organization can't discriminate against LGBT people, but he's going to get his dig in against them any way he can because he himself doesn't like them. He's not clueless, he's a bigot who doesn't like the fact that he can't legally and openly discriminate against gay people.

[arbusto_baboso]

66. Looking at his overall pattern, I think you are correct.

Although, I wouldn't ordinarily credit this person with having enough intelligence to try to conceal his bigotry in any way.

Funny thing about him, too, is that he makes a big "PING!" on my (admittedly hetero and not-finely-tuned) gaydar.

[NMMNG]

68. If he's got that high a position

He may need to conceal his bigotry to some extent in order to keep it. Then he goes home and whines about how he's "forced" to choose between his faith and his job. No, dumbass, you're just required to follow the same rules at work as everybody else. If you want to be a full-fledged bigot everywhere you go (and use Jesus as an excuse) then get a job in a church or other religious organization.

[arbusto_baboso]

69. It's a mystery to all in my agency how he ever got such a high position.

He's dumb as a bag of fucking hair. The agency director who appointed him was famous for "kicking people upstairs" who couldn't do any other job in the agency without completely muffing it...

[NMMNG]

73. I've known a lot of people like that

Often they have friends in high places or some other such thing. Hopefully he'll move along soon and you'll have someone better to deal with.

[arbusto_baboso]

78. He's pretty near retirement age.

And I wish I could believe he'd be replaced by someone better. Instead, huis replacement will likely be someone smarter, but just as bigoted, ruthless and unprincipled.

Our previous director surrounded himself with people who adhered to the Bush-Cheney management style.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. Never thought of it that way.

I've thought of it kind of like "counter culture." If 90% of the population is straight, and 10% is gay, then that 10% would be the alternative to the usual sexuality, or lifestyle, or whatever. Not "alternative" as in "selective."