Pastor Terry Jones says Jesus Christ would burn Korans

[mike r]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/09/08/2010-09-08_pastor_terry_jones_says_jesus_christ_would_burn_korans_will_go_ahead_with_contro.html

Pastor Terry Jones says Jesus Christ would burn Korans, will go ahead with controversial 9/11 event
BY Sean Alfano

Terry Jones knows his plan to burn Korans on the anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks is radical, and that's exactly what he wants. He believes it is what Jesus Christ would do.

"Jesus would not run around burning books," Jones told ABC's "Nightline" on Tuesday, "but I think he would burn this one."

The 58-year-old former hotel manager, who spent three decades as a missionary in Germany, cuts a striking figure with his dark suits, neatly trimmed crew cut and handlebar moustache. Then there is the .40-caliber pistol that hugs his hip. Many of the roughly 50 members of his Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville are also armed, Jones said...

The pastor's daughter from his first marriage, however, thinks her father and his religious group are a "cult."

[BeFree]

1. Terry

Hate to say this, bub, but you will be the one burning.

Of course, unless you repent your sins, and quick.

That's exactly what your bible says.

[saltpoint]

2. Political issues and politics aside for just a moment, I just

want to say that "Dove World Outreach Center" is a damn stupid name.

Thank you.

[Bragi]

3. The first amendment is not negotiable

If Americans want to disassociate themselves from this loon, then their leaders have to start talking about the right to free speech, and what that actually means.

If not, then the propaganda from the Islamic radicals asserting that an attack on the Koran justifies attacks on Americans everywhere, will go unchallenged.

So far, administration officials have talked about tolerance, but have not explained, let alone defended, freedom of speech, and the right of people to criticize and even insult any religious faith they choose to insult.

No matter what kind of rampage anyone threatens, the First Amendment is not negotiable.

If this isn't stated now, then when? After the fatwas, threats, rampages and attacks begin?

[saltpoint]

5. Yes, and I like your characterization of Jones' event as

a "tantrum."

A defiant and oppositional 13-year old is often quelled and brought to a quicker understanding of personal responsibility and maturity if he can be in a group of mature 16-year olds, for example, who have already done a little more problem-solving and learned from their errors, as most of us humans do.

Jones' event appears psychotic on its face, legal though it may be, and more than a little self-promotional.

I've appreciated the ecumenical call for him to reconsider the consequences of invoking his First Amendment rights in such a way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. IF any American gets killed after this

and it can directly be tied to this... I say bring him before the court of a wrongful death.... that will mean paying the consequences for his actions.

In the meantime those of us who do travel abroad from time to time will reengage the common hobby of hiding whence we come from.

[Mosby]

35. Did you feel this way about the danish cartoons?

As many as 100 people may have died as a result of the publication of those cartoons, should all the relatives sue the newspaper?

For the record I think what this church is doing is incredible stupid and insensitive, but the media is making this into something much bigger than it deserves, we are talking about books here people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Where Danish citizens killed? No

do Danish courts have standing in the Arab World? No

Do American Courts have standing in Kabul? No.

That is why IF A US CITIZEN IS KILLED. This is screaming fire in a crowded theater. There are real limits to your rights.

This is one of those hard limits.

[Deep13]

7. Right.

As moronic as the whole my-god-is-better-than-your-god thing is, it is still protected speech.

[hfojvt]

14. actually it is, according to most SCOTUS theories/actions

"Notwithstanding the specific guarantee of the First Amendment and, by implication that of the Fourteenth, the quintet of rights enumerated in its language are not regarded as absolute, despite Justice Hugo Black's ardent advocacy of such an approach. Accordingly, a 'balancing' between individual and societal rights seems a logical compromise between those who would brook no government regulation of First Amendment rights, whatsoever, and those who readily support stern, sometimes draconian measures on the grounds of national security or law and order. In general, the judicial branch has endeavored to draw a viable line between protected constitutional righs and permissable government regulation." The Oxford Companion to the Supreme Court of the United States, 2nd edition p. 347 "first amendment balancing"

[Bragi]

18. Are you suggesting that free speech doesn't apply here?

I can't imagine how burning an object as a symbolic protest against a particular religion would not be protected free speech.

If you think otherwise, I'm interested in hearing your argument.

[hfojvt]

20. I am suggesting that free speech is not absolute

What Eugene Debs did was certainly free speech, and yet SCOTUS ruled that he could still goto prison for it.

The analogy used was that free speech does not give you "the right to shout 'fire' in a crowded theatre" because if you did so, it would likely lead to loss of life. In a similar way, his action is likely to lead to loss of life, and as such, can logically be prohibited. His right to free speech is trumped by other people's right to life.

[Bragi]

21. If that's your case, then I don't agree

I agree that no rights are absolute, however, burning a book may incite fervor, even violence, among unstable psychos half-way round the world, but it is no reason to limit free speech in America.

If it were, then for all intents and purposes, American would need to ban any and all anti-religious discourse that could be taken as offensive and lead to violence.

For me, that won't happen, and shouldn't even be entertained.

If it did happen, it would be a catastrophe for free speech in America.

I think the Muslim world needs to accommodate the fact that the First Amendment means that their religion and its sacred objects cannot be protected by the American state from criticism or insult. Period.

That's why I am so bothered that the administration is speaking up on this and urging Americans to be tolerant, while saying nothing about the need for Muslims to understand and accommodate the reality of the First Amendment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Try to get it

this little theory of western thought of a secular state does not exist in cultures that are tribal in nature. What is more, this preacher is also trapped in the same 12th century. I say if ANY US Soldier, US Diplomat, or US Civilian dies because of this... this preacher should be sued for wrongful death... rights have responsibilities. And there is more, if worst case happens and his actions lead to an attack IN THE US, don't care where it comes from... he should also be on trial, Screaming fire in a crowded theater comes to mind. He has a right to do this... by all means. But there should be very clear consequences.

And his little tantrum will make life for those who actually TRAVEL outside this country all kinds of fun... me... should renew my Mexican Passport... for safety sake. Travelling on a US Passport thanks to this loon will be as much fun as the years of the Bushies.

Yes, there are real consequences and this guy is EVEN FUCKING LYING in his justifications. but go on... we must defend all rights as absolute....

Did you take the same view over the Fourth and the USPA? Just curious... and what actions have you taken to defend it?

[Bragi]

41. I've a question for you then

Before I scuttle off to do my duty on "the Fourth and the USPA", just wondering if you believe that the lets-burn-the-Koran genie can be put back in the bottle?

Do you think that after America ensures/survives Jones Saturday, that America will have ended any further need to consider the fact that there will be an American someday, somewhere who will publicly burn Korans?

So what's your message when that happens then to any in the Muslim world who demand that these insults end, and that religious speech be limited in America so as to make it illegal for any American to ever again insult Islam (or any other religion?). And would you justify any limitation on the belief (or even likelihood) that the adherents to that religion will become violent, and inflict deliberate harm on Americans in response?

I see trouble with that response, and I think others do as well, so maybe it's better to get this discussion going now, rather than after the fatwas are issued.

Is America going to limit free speech to avoid offense to Muslims? Not a complicated question, actually. My answer would be I hope not, but I realize that isn't adequate. You?

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. You really do not get it

2003 USSC decision that any burn of any religious article meant to frighten is not protected speech, by the way. I am sure you did not realize that. Just like screaming fire in a crowded theater is not protected speech, unless of course, there is AN ACTUAL FIRE.

But you don't get it. In the tribal areas the ELDERS are consulted for all that happens in the tribe. That is the standard they are judging this by. Hence, not that you understand this, and does not matter what the reality is for us... this has to be approved by the government. All the niceties about local permits and first amendment and the rest... are as alien as trying to speak to a Martian.

In the mean time, those of us WHO DO travel abroad will have to go back to the usual happy hobby of trying to hide where we come from. Time to sow on a Canadian patch on a backpack if you are in Europe for example.

And when A US CITIZEN is killed because of this, the preacher should be taken to court for wrongful death. Actions have consequences... and rights are not absolute. There are actual real limits. As one of my teachers many decades ago, your rights end right where mine start.

[Bragi]

43. I reject your legal opinion

Burning a religious object (a cross?) with an intent to frighten sounds a lot to me like something that a KKK member would do on someone's lawn, specifically to frighten them.

This seems to me to be something very different than burning a stack of papers to express (however poorly) a religious opinion.

More than rejecting your legal opinion, though, I reject your snotty, know-it-all tone and message. I will chalk that up to the stresses you feel arising from having to travel abroad.

I'm sympathetic to that, but I don't think the answer to your fears is to try to silence American goofball critics of Islam so that Muslims don't become violent. I think people of Muslim faith need to understand better what America really is, and what free speech means.

I don't accept the idea that their tribal political and social cultures make it impossible for Muslims abroad to understand America. If I'm wrong and you're right on that, then the situation is grim indeed, because someday, sometime, there will be Koran burnings in America, and what then?

- B

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Reject whatever you want

it is easy to do that when it don't, mostly, affect you.

Have a good day.

After all this is so not serious that now we have a global travel alert....

Toronto is a nice city eh?

[Fumesucker]

4. ...

[razorman]

6. And would he use a Zippo to burn the Koran? Neither existed in Jesus' time.

[MrScorpio]

11. Damn Skippy. nt

[Brickbat]

8. That's nice.

Why we're giving this clown any attention is beyond me. Stupid Internet.

[Deep13]

9. How does he know JC would not have become a Muslim?

That option did not exist before the seventh century.

[keith the dem]

10. This lost asshole doesn't know that Jesus is an integral

part of the Koran.

[TlalocW]

12. Why do all these nutjobs "think" Jesus would do this or do that?

We have a record - historically accurate or not according to your personal beliefs - that tell us what he did: healed the sick, fed the hungry, comforted people, hung out with sinners, etc.

TlalocW

[Bragi]

16. Not really, no

We don't have much of a historical record, just the New Testament, most of which was written long after the historical Jesus was alive by people who weren't there, and much of which was written not as a historical record, but to "prove" Jesus was the Messiah and fulfilled all the prophesies (e.g. baseless predictions) found in the Old Testament.

So what the historical Jesus might do in a particular contemporary circumstance is very debatable.

[Deep13]

24. I dispute that historical accuracy is a matter of belief. nt

[burnsei sensei]

13. This man and those following him

believes that he has nothing to lose.

Quote:
The 58-year-old former hotel manager, who spent three decades as a missionary in Germany, cuts a striking figure with his dark suits, neatly trimmed crew cut and handlebar moustache. Then there is the .40-caliber pistol that hugs his hip. Many of the roughly 50 members of his Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville are also armed, Jones said...
end quote.

Only people who do not value what they have engage in this kind of behavior.
He hasn't learned a word of Latin, translated even one classical work, nor has he bothered to read Christian tradition and history as well as the Bible.
He knows little, has little to offer besides his fire and arms, and is a nihilist ultimately.
There is no cultural power in this individual and his Dove World.

[Arkansas Granny]

15. I don't pretend to know this man's mind, but IMO, he is more interested

in the notoriety he is creating for himself than he is in what he imagines Jesus would do. This event has been staged for attention, only.

[flakey_foont]

17. and you know that for a fact.....how?

well, 2 can play that game

I think Jesus would be a Braves fan, would drive a Chevy Silverado pickup truck, would shop at the Piggly Wiggly
chew REDMAN tobacco, attend Wrestlemania,...and drink Bud Light


my source? same one as Pastor Jones -- I made it up

[Bitwit1234]

19. I think Jesus would leave the "burning" of republicans to their

master....Satan.

[Luciferous]

22. How convenient for him...

I really hate people who go around doing wackjob stuff like this in the name of God or Jesus Christ

[Owl]

23. "Pastor" Jones is an idiot.

[snooper2]

25. so 50 or so armed fundie nuts ...

Somebody should throw some firecrackers in the middle of them..

:evilgrin:

[anarch]

26. I say, Jesus would have a hard time not punching this clown in the nose

[missheidi]

27. Jesus preached love, not hate, nor burning books.

He's a freakin' nutcase!

[arbusto_baboso]

29. Jesus Christ will burn Terry Jones

IN HELL.

Provided that the whole Jesus myth is real, of which I am doubtful.

[malaise]

30. He knows this how

Stupid fuck!

[lib2DaBone]

31. How do these nut cases get national media attention?

Somehow this incident reminds me of Terry Schiavo...made for media to benefit the Repukes....

[Donald Ian Rankin]

33. I think he's quite possibly right.

While we can't take the portrayal of him in the bible as accurate, it depicts a man who viewed following other religions as a far more serious matter than temporal sins like adultery.

[mitchum]

34. I guess that means Jones is also willing to be nailed up

[Timmy5835]

37. You know what??????

Why don't a bunch of people from OUR side ride up their with a few bar-b-ques with bibles in them and torch em. See how he likes that.

[blondeatlast]

39. Who's side is "ours"? And because we don't hate--it reallty is that simple. nt

[Uncle Joe]

48. That would serve Jone's purpose of promoting hatred, he and his ilk feed on hatred,

it's their life's blood.

I see no reason to give power to this man.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

38. Probably true. So what?

[Canuckistanian]

40. I can't think of anyone further from the teachings of Christ

It's amazing he has the nerve to call himself a Christian.

[spanone]

45. so this pastor/clown speaks for jesus now? fuck me!

[Turborama]

46. When I just looked at this thread for the first time the view count was 666

I kid you not.

[BurtWorm]

47. Would Jesus grow a crappy fu manchu like that?

I don't think so.