“Hate is Hate”, But it Doesn’t End There for Some.

[Kurovski]

Jerry Falwell organized hate into a political force for the GOP, and a profitable enterprise for himself and his family. Falwell acted upon hate. He used it as a tool.

Did he condemn the people who perpetrated murder on 9/11? No, he instead attempted to inspire hatred for many of the Americans killed on that day.

Here is the difference as I see it between the left and the right when it comes to strongly negative human emotion: the left fears it and the right encourages and sustains it.

On its own, anger and hatred is neither good nor bad. The key is to be responsible for it. To experience the feelings and move to the next, keeping mindful of the transience of emotions. To base action on emotion alone creates disastrous results. To ignore and suppress it is no healthier.

The right actively encourages and fans the flames of anger and hatred, realizing the power it has to motivate people. Talk radio on the right has done a fine job of that.

The left often suppresses these human emotions, aspiring to something “finer”. The right is grateful for that. It creates passivity and an obsession with appearances. (i.e.; “what will Hannity think?” It is also much easier to manipulate someone who is caught up in denying basic, understandable feelings. It also serves for in-fighting indistinguishable from attacks that the right themselves could launch against the left. Accusations of hypocrisy, are one such accusation.

But such an accusation does not account for the difference between ACTING upon negative emotion in a negative way and the mere expression of negative emotion.

There is legitimate outrage expressed for abuses suffered, and on the other hand there is broad hatred for entire groups of people that motivate attacks upon their rights.

Please think about that difference if you happen to hold the belief that “hate is hate”.

When liberals start petitioning to deny the rights of others, when liberals begin burning peace signs on the lawns of their right-wing neighbors in an effort to force them to move, and when progressives call for an amendment to ban Baptists from the airwaves, then I will join folks in saying “we are no better than them”.

Until that time--and in my opinion--it is not true, and claiming that it is serves to suppress legitimate feelings, and muddies the waters in a way which the right wing is more than happy to see.

There is a popular thread presently on DU that obviously states “This is not DU’s finest moment”. I agree with it, but I’ll take honest discourse and expression over fretting about appearances and “faking it” any day of the week.

Being responsible for what we feel does not translate into suppressing those feelings.

[Rick Myers]

1. K and R

:kick:

Great post!!!

[LostinVA]

2. An excellent comment I just read in another Falwell thread

With credit to Iverglas:

"Hating someone for whatever they are is despicable.

Hating someone for the evil they do is the duty of all decent people."



As a victim of Falwell, I have a right to be glad of his death. No one has aright to tell a victim how to react to the death of their oppressor or their predator. He was a hateful, evil man who has helped cause hate and death to spread across this nation of ours. He was an architect of hate as much as anyone who sat in the defense box at Nuremberg.

[Kurovski]

3. I would never have been a suitable juror in a case against Falwell.

Ironically, my Christian upbringing has kicked in after my period of venting.

Yesterday I felt anger at his life's work, today I'm more indifferent, emotionally speaking. Some sadness exists as I review the affect Falwell's passionate crusade had on my early life. Slowly letting go of the feelings.

Now I'm looking forward to the political cartoonists' take on Falwell's career and demise to counterpoint the too careful reporting on the airwaves.

Still appreciating the biting and disrespectful humor DUers bring to the entire event. Next to Falwell's own words, that's the best tribute to the man's life.

[melody]

8. Well said n/t

[iverglas]

41. well fancy that

I knew it was worth reading your posts. ;)

On the subject of the thread, "hate is hate" (whether), I just want to repeat: that statement is pure equivocation.

Imagine me saying I hate brussels sprouts and someone getting all uppity about what a bad example I'm setting and how I'm no better than Jerry Falwell.

There is no equivalency between hating Jerry Falwell and hating LostinVA. I'm sure you'll be glad to know.


Meanwhile, my genealogical research has led to the knowledge that one of my great-great-grandmothers in England was a Fallowell, a quite unusual name that went through various spellings (Farrowell being one of her own, an interesting key to how people talked). I live in dread that I am related by blood to the monster in question.

[bleever]

4. This is a valuable, insightful contribution to this conversation.

Very well said.

Also, thanks for the LOL moment: "What will Hannity think?" :7

[Kurovski]

6. Bleever my friend,

that was actually lifted from recent and seriously stated discourse here on DU.

Thank you. :-)

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. Brilliantly said. K/R.

[Maven]

7. Well observed and articulated.

K/R.

[Kurovski]

24. Thank you, HK.

You've also been making the case for us across the board, and I appreciate it.

[Cronopio]

9. "The right actively encourages and fans the flames of anger and hatred ..."

How is that different from the lefties on these boards writing "I'm not hating, I'm just venting, so vent with me."?

Correct answer: it isn't.

Expressing outrage about a person's acts in life is one thing, but celebrating *anyone's* death is celebrating death - nothing different. It was vile when Falwell did it to gays and 9/11 victims, and it is just as vile when lefties do it to Falwell, and for the same reasons.

People need to separate the value of a person's acts from the inherent value of their life. It's too bad that that's seen as just too life-affirming and wussy for lefties who confuse compassion with passivity, or fear what right-wingers might think about them.

"It is also much easier to manipulate someone who is caught up in denying basic, understandable feelings."

It's also easy to manipulate someone who is rationalizing neurotic feelings of hate. I haven't seen one DU post suggesting that Falwell's intolerant views should be ignored.

[Kurovski]

10. We will continue to disagree.

There is nothing neurotic about anger expressed over Falwell and how he affected my life. As this thread points out, it is not all-consuming in my life.

You choose to see no difference between negative feelings and negative action. we disagree, I believe that there is a difference.

Ugly feelings expressed are just that. Again, the responsibility lies within us to not let them consume us, cloud our judgment, or see them as a reason for revenge rather than justice.

The responsibility is also with me when I express unpleasant, vile emotions. I must allow others to be offended and not deny them their own feelings. I failed at that yesterday, but now I understand.

I would hope that we could all try a little harder to understand without one side or the other having to deny their own feelings, or be wrestled to the ground as though this were a contest.

[Cronopio]

11. "You choose to see no difference between negative feelings and negative action. "

That's not what I believe. There is obviously a difference of degree, but they are both, as you accurately put it, ugly.

Falwell has generated his own black karma throughout his life, and that hate energy is the only thing that he is now left with. That's his hell realm. Why should anyone invest in that path?

I also believe that there's a big difference between hate and anger, even though both are addictive.

I absolutely agree with you that taking responsibility for anger and other ugly feelings is the way to transform Falwell's ugly legacy into something more positive. Negative feelings should be transformed, not buried or indulged.

[LittleClarkie]

18. For me it's a question of

How much do you want to become the thing you hate in order to defeat it.

It would not be good to "destroy the village in order to save it" as it were.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

19. I'm not feeling berated, and I'm part of "all"

All, dude?

[LittleClarkie]

17. Indeed I was told I was the one who had moral issues

for taking exception with the way some here were spewing hate. They are the oppressed, doncha know, and are only truth-telling.

[porque no]

27. Utter bullshit.

But thanks for the fertilizer anyway. A few "good riddance" salutes to that old coot does not even come close, in any measurement, to the damage he did during his phony life.

Thanks for the "concern" though.

[RetroLounge]

53. "the lefties on these boards "

Enjoy your stay...

:eyes:

RL

[Zenlitened]

55. "I haven't seen one DU post suggesting that Falwell's intolerant views should be ignored."

I have. In a post that says:

People need to separate the value of a person's acts from the inherent value of their life.

[LittleClarkie]

13. So Ghandi was just repressing

Gotcha.

[bonito]

14. .

[Kurovski]

20. There is no mention of Ghandi anywhere here.

Could you please make yourself clearer so that I understand your point?

[and-justice-for-all]

15. Never liked him from the day I heard him open his mouth

never agreed with him, thought he use very Nazi like, I never advocated his death but I will not show him any remorse nor mercy. He was a pathetic person who did not deserve the skin he walked around in..

[Jim Warren]

16. Americans are such wimps

[Kurovski]

21. Who got deleted? Anyone I know?

If so, PM me with the scoop. :-)

[CBGLuthier]

22. Before the internet

What did people do to show they had no class?

[Kurovski]

23. We use to egg charm schools.

[KG]

25. all hate is not the same, in spite of what the hand-wringer would have us believe

[Jed Dilligan]

26. My point as well

You probably expressed it better than I did.

cheers

[Kurovski]

28. I thought you did very well indeed.

And furthermore, you hung in there for a long bout of back-and-forth.

I commend you, Jed Dilligan. And I appreciate it.

You even got a recommend from me.

[iverglas]

42. as did I

Read, couldn't think of anything needed saying, forgot to recommend ...

[spoony]

57. No he didn't.

Lol, all he had was basically. "well you don't get it cause you're...like...a man and....went to college....and stuff!"

[Kurovski]

29. Kick. (nt)

[Kurovski]

30. More thoughts from another thread...

"...Anger, and even hate do not derail Democracy. It is right wing movements that derail Democracy. Passivity derails Democracy.

Do you have any idea how angry people were during the American Revolution? Do you know how uncivilly our founders treated one another? Very.

And lord of mercy, but how they fucking hated King George of England.

Here's the BIG SCOOP...Democracy and change do not ever happen WITHOUT anger.

And Right-wingers know that one, inside-out, backward and forward. It's why they spent decades--with Falwell's help--whipping up the emotions. And look where we are. They WON.

The right-wing also knows to keep their opposition in-fighting EACH OTHER as much as possible instead of directing anger toward the right-wing itself.

Anger and discontent, and even rudeness and hate is what will now get the right-wing out of our hair as Americans are increasingly, passionately motivated for change."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=910608&mesg_id=911672

[Madspirit]

31. DAMN!

Too late to recommend but I can kick!

GREAT post!
Lee

[Kurovski]

32. Thanks Madspirit.

That's high praise indeed. :hug:

[autorank]

33. "I’ll take honest discourse and expression " Me to. I'm with you 100%

Of course Falwell was a negative force. The 911 comments were unforgivable, just beyond any limit of decency and restraint. In fact, the remarks betrayed a significant anti social attitude.

In his home state of Virginia, Falwell and his peer Pat Robertson of the 800 Club and Regent University advanced anti gay policies and, in 2005, chose a hideous slate of candidates for Governor on down. They do this with money raised under the cloak of their religion. Their respect for religion is equivalent to the respect * and Cheney show for the Constitution of the United States.

Falwell's death, we are to believe, makes him equal to the vast majority of people who die who receive a liberal dose of the benefit of the doubt for a decent interim. However, the vast majority of people don't lead a life based on scapegoating and defaming others, all in the name of Jesus Christ.

My response to his passing was, "hmmm... won't have to think about him at all anymore." However, for those others who express anger at this point when Falwell surges to the front, I say why not. We don't live in a theocracy. Robertson and Falwell failed. Most of us don't see God punishing people through events that almost any God imaginable would never perpetrate. Robertson and Falwell failed to convince us of that absurdity also.

When the Italian people got a chance, they hung Mussolini upside down, riddled his body with bullets, and desecrated it. They were furious at his capitulation with Hitler and the horror he brought to Italy. Nobody went after Falwell or anyone else in the hate generating political faction. Falwell went about his business, not bothered by his outrageous comments and actions. That was his unintended gift from those he targeted. This not the time for restraint unless that's your normal reaction to the passing of an extremely harmful and negative person. If it's not, speak up and make your point.

Who wrote this special rule anyway, the one that says we observe a moment of silence for someone who inflicted decades of division, hatred, and worse?

Is someone going to tell us it is God who made this rule?

The junta may not want it so, but we live in a free country. Speak up and take part in the freedom while it lasts.

K*R, Excellent post.

[autorank]

35. Falwell's Political Legacy in Virginia - a devastating, permanent loss

One more point. In 2005, Northern Virginia, home to many of the people and much of the wealth of Virginia, went for Kerry by about 53-47%. In 2005, the statewide races for Governor etc., NoVA shifted to about 62-38%. Nobody in the media saw it coming but it did and in a hurry.

Why?

Because this highly educated area had a belly full of Falwell and Pat Robertson style candidates; candidates who received dirty money form hate groups and were barely concealed ultra right wing extremists.

The shift is permanent. Falwell's brand of Republicanism here will survive as a minority faction but they're done winning anything big for long. They never got to Sen. Warner fully, although he is restrained in his disdain for that faction. Their poster boy George Allen was shown the door, by a wider margin than indicated and without any real money in the Webb campaign. Moderate Republicans are about to vanish. The party of right wing theocracy, built in the 90's, had a short run where they got just a few of their pet projects through. Now they're done and they have tainted the state Republican Party with the characteristics that are offensive to most of the state.

Not much of a political legacy.

[Kurovski]

37. Thats good news for America, and even for religion

but you just know they're not going to give it up without a fight.

I never knew that bit of info on Virginia until now.

The political legacy will be a very fascinating chapter in history. Full of intrigue, criminality, sex, and a failed attempt to destroy even the semblance of Democracy in a Republic that we've convinced ourselves of for decades now. And I'm betting Laura is super-pissed-off that they ever got dragged there in the first place. Much, much more to come.

I can't wait to hear about all the lists of medication they all took. Ambien is one, as Colin Powell reported in a German interview. Part-time shill for big Pharma, perhaps.

Ambien side effects:

"Serious adverse reactions including severe anaphylactic and anaphylactoid reactions, abnormal thinking and behavior, complex behaviors, withdrawal effects, amnesia, anxiety, other neuro-psychiatric symptoms..."

Sounds kinda like George, don't it?

[autorank]

44. Kurovski, did I ever tell you "I am the Jaun"

[Kurovski]

45. Who can resist a man in uniform?

Puns and all.

[autorank]

46. Snappy isn't it. Captain Stubing was an inspiration to an entire generation n/t

[Kurovski]

47. You know, I never saw a full episode of that show in my life.

Maybe THAT'S why I'm such an uninspired member of my generation.

Is it out on DVD so I can catch up? I wonder if that bastard Kissinger ever watched it. It would be funny to me to hear his take on an episode. Was Jill Saint Johns ever a guest?

I'll google.

Edit: I.m back.

Yep, four episodes from 1979-1982, including an episode titled "All's fair in Love and War." It figures. The acting in Love Bost was some of the crappiest imaginable.

[autorank]

58. Did you see this episode?

Didn't think so.

We need a new value system where "chill" is a high value.

You start to get irritated in some irrational way at some group or another, just chill.

Your friend does the same thing, you say, chill man.

Had a tough week, don't push yourself, child out.

If you chill enough then people notice and say,

"Hey, it's (Kurovski/Fallwell/Collins/Robertson), he's cool. -- the ultimate achievement.

Can't hat others for something that's not your business when you're chilling, not cool.

Great thread! Very cool, indeed.

[Kurovski]

59. Are you sure that we're

not talking about "baking" here?


Here's a munchy Chilly for you.

And you're correct. I never saw that episode. She looks awfully hungry.

By the way, I just got back from yelling at someone in another thread.

[Kurovski]

64. Sin City.

"A film that explores the dark and miserable southern town Basin City and tells the story of three different people, all caught up in the violent corruption of the city."

I'm a fan of Bruce Willis. Do you recommend it?

If Mr. Willis' rear-end makes an appearance, I'm sold. :thumbsup:

[Hidden Stillness]

34. All Human Beings Hate, Even the Ones Who Pretend They Don't; All are Flawed

This can be a very tricky and difficult topic, especially when people tend to give themselves credit for things they have not done, such as people who pretend they "never hate"--a ludicrous claim. Although I believe the better response to the death of this bastard is just a kind of cold dismissal, as if we will now never speak or write your evil name again, I still understand a spasm of anger and hatred coming out of people who have been so hurt by the meanness of this prick over all the years. I spent a little time while this story was first unfolding, reading over some of the quotes Falwell had made over the years about feminists, and it really was vile, hateful, and creepy. There was a deep maliciousness and desire to completely destroy, (just read the ones from, for example, the great book "Backlash" by Susan Faludi, if nothing else). You cannot pretend that there was no meaning to the outward content of a life, that it was not an indicator, for "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16), not by some phony "magical mind-reading" that pretended that the inner core of a person was something other than the intent shown by their acts and expressed opinions. You ain't God, and you are also not impartial and fair, because the same attackers of anger against Falwell, themselves used "hateful" language against those who attacked Falwell. One poster sneered at "lefties," blaming them, and another used the phrase, "They are the oppressed, doncha know, and are only truth-telling"--and this person was just lecturing "against hate"! No, that won't escalate anything...

There is less difference between them and the angry reaction of the crowds on this website, than some of these self-superior people are comfortable with. I am actually cold to this bastard, whom I regard with a special accusation of sin, because I am a very serious, religious Christian, and Iconsider Falwell to be a complete disgrace and falsifier of the truth of Christianity--someone who never knew what it meant, who made it so ugly and mean as to drive millions of people away, who might have wanted it, and who presumed to block others from their rightful loving acceptance by God. The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is the truth of things, and in the Bible it tells that those who blaspheme against Jesus, against God, will be forgiven, but the one "that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation," beacause that one "hath an unclean spirit" (Mark 3:29-30). This is what I believe the like of Falwell are--they are destroying religion, and driving people away from it, and making God seem ugly and violent to people. They lie about the very truth of things. This is a sin, and I would think that real Christians most of all, would hate this bastard.

Of course, you could always remember the inspiring example of the great Lutheran theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer. You may have read about a huge plot to murder Adolph Hitler during World War II, and how, sadly, the plot was exposed and the conspirators, a large group, were tortured to death. Bonhoeffer was one of them. The great theologian was going to help murder Hitler; grim stuff here. Do not pretend I compared the asshole Falwell to the genocidal Hitler and intentionally derail the comment. The point was, sometimes making yourself not hate evil, on whatever level it was on, is the most immoral thing you can do. Of course, some people are really only interested in flattering themselves in relation to others.

[Kurovski]

36. A magnificent post.

Thank you for responding, it's pretty clear you've given a great deal of thought to this, and I thank you for taking the time to share those thoughts.

Catwoman had a thread showing posts from a religious board in Georgia, I believe, that revealed how those people felt their faith and the words of Jesus Christ were abused by Falwell. They also used language well-expressing their anger.

I seem to recall you mentioning the book by Susan Faludi on the BookTV thread. A very heartfelt essay, if I remember correctly.

I'll put it on my reading list...There, it's on the list. In fact a friend of mine may already have it. I'll ask.

I'll see you on Vivala's book thread tomorrow, I hope.

Good-night, Hidden Stillness...still love that strikingly beautiful name. Also from the book, isn't it? I have a long but somewhat sketchy memory. :-)

[Zenlitened]

54. "...sometimes making yourself not hate evil... is the most immoral thing you can do."

:applause:

[Kurovski]

38. Kick. (nt)

[EFerrari]

39. Kick. Well said, sir.

We can be responsible for what we feel, and for what we think AND still be true to progressive values.

:kick:

[Kurovski]

49. But I want to be TWICE as bad as Falwell.

Thank you, madam.

[EFerrari]

50. You so bad.

:loveya:

[Swamp Rat]

40. Excellent analysis

:applause:

"It creates passivity and an obsession with appearances." :puke:

"But such an accusation does not account for the difference between ACTING upon negative emotion in a negative way and the mere expression of negative emotion." - Nail on head, my friend. ;)

The piety I have witnessed on DU as of late reminds me of Falwell and his ilk.

[EFerrari]

43. kick

[Kurovski]

48. Something told me we were thinking along the same lines here.

Many of us are actually trained for passivity and to fear and dislike "negative" emotions in ourselves, rather than to be responsible for them.

So I do understand the resistance and decrying of them. And under normal circumstances I would be loathe to trounce a dead man.

But we are not living under normal circumstances and I've had it with the all the shit. You should check out autorank's post up thread about how Virginians also expressed their weariness of Falwell-style plop.

I would only compare the piety seen here on DU to the actual right-wing disruptors who came on board to stir the pot over Falwell's death.

I think some others' concerns come from a real sense of propriety and decency. It's shocking when decency is broached. Others truly do view anger as bad, and some view it from an eastern-religious stance.

But our country is disappearing as we speak, and manners, in instance such as this, are in the crapper until further notice.

[Swamp Rat]

51. Another very insightful post.

Normally I would refrain from disparaging the dead (while the body is still warm, so to speak), but we are not living under normal circumstances. Jerry Falwell wanted to put me in an oven, shoot me, hang me, murder me like the Germans did to my family in Bobruisk. To monsters like Falwell I say, NEVER AGAIN!!!

(snip)

On June 22, 1941, Hitler's murderous bands penetrated into the governing councils and in a few days they were in Bobruisk. The resistance of the Red Army was broken by the pressure of the German tanks and weapons and the city was destroyed by the slaughter. "Blackened skeletons of bones, torn telephone wires, fallen fences. The nearer one comes to the center, the more frightful the picture of the destruction. Twisted doors and windows, furniture and other household objects thrown into the streets. The central streets blocked by automobiles and wagons. The Nazis were everywhere. The motors roared wildly. Screeching, shouting orders were heard. The air was filled with smoke and soot." This was Bobruisk as described by a Soviet officer who arrived in the town shortly after it fell.

(snip)

Bobruisk was near the battle front for about 2 months, until August 19, when Gomel fell to the Nazis and the front switched to the Eastern side. In those days Bobruisk served as a base for the German army which fought in the Dneiper region. Front hospitals were opened in the town. Every day tens of solders and officers died of their wounds. The city gardens were transformed into cemeteries, where markers of birch wood were placed, and in them steel plates, The Germans sought carpenters to make caskets. The former factory, "The Red Furniture Carpentry" became the center where the caskets were made. The carpenters were Jews.

(snip)

In a notice appearing in Pravda about a year after the slaughter, the following was stated: "The Bobruisk residents will never forget the horrible days of the last of November when the Nazi man-eaters slaughtered all the Jews that remained in the town. Elderly and children were taken at night in vans and driven to the village of Yeloviki, near Bobruisk. There, deep graves were already prepared. The Jews were driven out of the vans and stood in 2 to 3 lines on the edge of the grave. Then they opened fire from machine guns. Many fell into the graves already dead and those that remained were thrown in by the Nazis, still alive. Children were taken from the arms of their mothers and were smashed against the walls of the grave. It is impossible to write of the savage actions of the Nazi wild beasts. When the graves were filled with bodies, the Nazis brought tanks and tractors which went over and leveled the earth. According to incomplete figures, in such a manner, 20,000 Jews from Bobruisk were destroyed. A general slaughter was also carried out in Hlusk, Paritch, Uzarich and Dragonavka. Amongst the murdered was also Reb Schmuel Alexandrov and the last Bobruisk Rabbi, Reb Shmuel Bespalov.

And thus reports a Russian eye witness: The occupiers made a ghetto from the quarters that were near the air field on the southeast side of Bobruisk. On the 5th of November, in the early morning, they began to bring them from all parts of the city. The women, children and elders, half-naked. "Quickly, quickly," screamed the wild Gestapo personnel. The women lamented, the children cried, as they felt that every step brought them closer to a sure death. A heavy snow was falling, the wind hit into their faces. The long march lasted into the late night hours. In the houses that were emptied of their dwellers, there began a robbery. Through the broken windows and doors, household goods were taken. The Nazis robbed them of everything that came into their hands.

(snip)

On the same day, they carried out a slaughter of the Soviet war captives - about 20,000 - who were held in prisons in Bobruisk. The Nazis set fire to several barracks and fired upon those who tried to save themselves from the fire, with machine guns. The count of those killed by fire and guns was about 4,000. The direct responsibility for all these actions, the destruction of the Jews and the murder of the Soviet prisoners - was that of the German commander of Bobruisk- Major General Homan.

(snip)

http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/bobruisk/byb204.html#214

As far as I'm concerned, Jerry Falwell could have been another Major General Homan or Reichbishop Ludwig Müller.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

[Kurovski]

52. The Nazis learned

a different path had to be created, because the world had blocked their first attempt.

Falwell was something of a pioneer in that department. And he never failed to smile.

[spoony]

56. How many threads do we need

yelling at people for daring to interupt the celebration of death? What is this the dozenth?

[Kurovski]

60. I was here first.

I'm lying, I'm the 74th.

Thanks for the "kick", spoony.

[Madspirit]

61. We're taking over....I'm series1111

A queer around every corner. We're ruining Democratic Underground's reputation with the right wing and shucks...that would be awful...

Notice how they bitch and are angry and full of vemom about Bush and the war. Falwell declared war on gays. Fuck these hypocrites.

...and here's another kick for you.
Lee

[Kurovski]

62. The Agenda.

At last.

Thanks! :hi:

[Duncan Grant]

63. As many as it takes. (nt)

[Kurovski]

65. Did you see this?