Life on the Arizona-Mexico border: A look at life in my neck of the woods

[jody]

Life on the Arizona-Mexico border: A look at life in my neck of the woods

I live in Santa Cruz County, but not in a city. I am in the forest east of Nogales, along the border. My experiences on the border likely don’t match those living on the border in Cochise or Yuma counties. Although I did live for one year in Three Points (Pima County) and can certainly speak for those folks. I can honestly say that life there is impacted to some degree by illegal crossers, especially those who live further to the south, around the Buenos Aires Wildlife Refuge.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

My great great grandfather immigrated, legally, from Scotland. He married Gertrudis Apodaca, from Mexico. Their son married a woman from Mexico. Their son’s son married a woman from Mexico. Coupled with my Mexican lineage on the maternal side of my family, my lineage is clearly Mexican.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

It is certainly baffling that the government acknowledges a problem with the warning signs and also refuse to deliver mail to the homes, due to dangers faced by mail carriers. Yet, according to what is presented by the media, the border is safe as it has ever been. Well, the mail used to be delivered to the houses, so the fact that the mail carriers won’t deliver mail to the homes tells me that this statement is not entirely true.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

One of the reasons I am writing this post, is due to a recent airing of The Rachel Maddow Show. I am rather disappointed with Maddow’s condescending and incomplete coverage of the very real concerns faced in certain sections of the border. The boundary that divides us from Mexico is visually apparent on a map. However, life along border is not as apparent and constant as that dividing line seen on a map.

Maddow recently sent her staff to Nogales to see the border fence. To demonstrate a point, Maddow showed a picture of her staff member walking mockingly along the fence. The entire event was handled by Maddow and her staff like it was a joke. The problem is, this particular stretch of fence is not what concerns us. It’s the fence where I live in the mountains that deserves a good deal of attention. It’s the fence where much of the traffic actually passes through. There are many other stretches like ours, all over entire length of the border. In some places, there is no fence, only a marker to indicate the border.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

I wanted to present a different view of the border than the media has presented. My view of it. A true view of life where I live along the border. A view that may differ from the view of other border residents. Some face extreme danger. Some don’t. Some experience something in between, which is where I gauge my present situation. It really depends on where the agents funnel the traffic.

[Xipe Totec]

1. So some facts are clear from your post

1.- You live along the border.

2.- You have Mexican ancestry

3.- You are scared.

The rest is pretty fuzzy.

[jody]

4. What a crock. I live in Alabama, my ancestry goes back to England in 1638, and I'm not scared.

Your post suggests you have some agenda but I don't believe you are able to discuss an issue that divides and polarizes society.

[depakid]

8. I think your attitude regarding firearms tells us all we need to know about your level of fear

[jody]

9. What do firearms have to do with the OP article? Do you have some paranoid fear of arms? n/t

[depakid]

11. The person writing the OP sounds fearful- as another poster pointed out

as to the OP's deal about mail not being delivered directly to the house.

Hello?

That's been the trend in rural areas for years.

[jody]

12. You asserted “your attitude . . . your level of fear” where “your' referred to

me. That’s a stupid inference from an OP that did not include a single word that is mine.

[depakid]

14. You're denying that it's about fear- and making assertions that aren't supported by the record!

Ordinary people don't carry guns around if they're not afraid of "bad guys."

[jody]

16. I see you are incapable of discussing the OP. Have a great evening and goodbye. n/t

[proteus_lives]

47. Wrong as usual.

"Ordinary people don't carry guns around if they're not afraid of "bad guys."


I wonder what type of person you'd be if you capable of anything other then canards?

[Bold Lib]

2. Thanks for the post. I have a friend that lives in Arizona

and he tells me that watching the national media report on Arizona makes him think there are two states called Arizona. What is being reported is pure fiction.

[emilyg]

3. That's what my family in

Arizona say.

[Curmudgeoness]

5. So do you think that the AZ law is a good thing?

I would think that with Mexican ancestery, this would concern you. What are your answers?

[jody]

6. Suggest you contact Cherlyn Gardner Strong, author of the OP article. n/t

[Curmudgeoness]

7. Oops, Not paying enough attention. nt

[jody]

10. It happens to all of us.

:hi:

[MajorChode]

35. Her answer is not that hard to figure out

Obviously she does.

I'm more interested in hearing what your answer is, and if the answer is no, the follow up question is why would you parrot out this bullshit?

[EFerrari]

13. Dangerous Border Actually One of America's Safest Places

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4485403

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

15. I'm sure some have been channeled through Arizona that

would have normally gone into California. Of course, there is that matter that violent crime has actually gone down the last few years in Arizona border towns as well. Maddow didn't make that up. However, everybody has their own shoes to walk in so to speak including the author.

[Bobbieo]

17. From what the lady in the article is telling us is that the Mexican drug cartels

are moving in from across the border and we had better do something about it and soon.

She has a right to be scared!

[TheKentuckian]

18. As always, legalize vice and enforce at the employer everything else is a bunch of horseshit

I'm tired of the bellyaching but not wanting to deal with the root causes of the problems.

Scared of drug cartels? Support putting them out of work.

Don't like unauthorized migration? Authorize it or cut off the cheap labor or increase prosperity south of the border.

Don't like Hispanics? Fucking suck it.

[Bobbieo]

19. Just Say "Now"!

[LAGC]

20. What's the solution though?

"Beef up" the border?

Maybe if we made it easier for immigrants to enter and exit the country legally, we wouldn't have so many illicit border crossings.

What we really need is comprehensive immigration reform with amnesty for the millions of undocumented workers who are already here and have been productive citizens for the past many years. Increase the numbers of work visas, and provide a fast-path to citizenship for those that have earned it by contributing and paying taxes for so long. Give people an incentive to not work "under-the-table" which drives wages down for everyone else. Crack down on employers who unfairly hire illegals at sub-standard wages, making it hard for natives to compete.

That would be a lot more cost-effective than posting 50,000 troops (or however many it would take) to "secure the border."

[Lasher]

21. We've tried amnesty before. It just encouraged more illegal immigration.

Further, it is unfair to those who have followed the rules and it does not promote diversity.

[MajorChode]

22. Lots of people are afraid of flying, does that mean commercial air travel is unsafe?

It's not too hard to find people who live with irrational fear, or who feign irrational fear to further a political agenda. The USPS delivers in areas that actually are crime ridden. The also will refuse to deliver to some areas where roads are in too bad shape to allow for regular deliveries, which is what I expect is happening here. Without actually hearing from the postmaster for that zip code, you only have the author's opinion on the matter and the article is full of obvious bullshit that doesn't reflect reality.

[GoldenOldie]

23. Original artical written by Cherlyn Gardner Strong ....

knows what she is talking about. She comes from a Santa Cruz pioneer family who has lived and worked in this area of Arizona for generations. I personally know that her article is totally factual as my SO also comes from a pioneer family in both Santa Cruz and Cochise County.....all ranchers. My SIL abd BIL have been long time ranchers within the area that Cherlyn Gardner Strong wrote. They are close friends with the mail-carrier/woman who had been attacked by an illegal in an attempt to steal her truck with the possiblity of rape and death. She managed to escape through quick thinking and placing her truck in reverse and in the process the very large side-mirrors hit the guy and knocked him out cold. In recounting the event to my BIL, he told her she should have ran over the sob.

Because main-stream media only televises and shoots photos of border problems in Nogales, a city, Hereford, Douglas, etc, Americans and even many Arizonans have a misconception of total border terrain. In this area of Lochiel, the Patagonia Mountains, etc., it extremely mountainous and although extremely beautiful can be dangerous, with not only drug smugglers but rattlesnakes, bears, cougars, etc.,.....thus the need for ranchers, mailcarriers, hikers to carry arms. It is just a simple case of being prepared. My BIL an 82-yr old, working, cowboy/rancher, afraid of nothing, who not only lasso's from his horse but constantly finds and lasso's loads of marijuana on his mountainous ranch. He has been told repeatedly to call the Border Patrol, if he needs to work his cattle higher up the mountain because of the danger.
This Santa Cruz area would be extremely hard to fence, as they have in Nogales and the flat terrain areas because of the very craggy mountains that only backpackers and mules can manuever.

I truly appreciate Rachel Maddow and her reporting, but maybe she and her staff should spend a few days with my BIL at his ranch where they can get the rest of the story....they have a guest house and he loves to educate as all the local Border Patrol agents and Narcs know.

I know the exact area that Cherlyn Gardner Strong speaks of and I know her story to be true. Educate yourself before attacking.

[MajorChode]

27. Thanks, but I'll go by actual statistics

If you want to go by anecdotal information, more power to you. The facts say crime in Arizona has been going down by a large margin despite increases in population:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/29/arizona.immigration.crime/index.html

If you have some actual facts that show crime in border counties is increasing, then feel free to show it.

I worked on top of a mountain in El Paso, TX for years and saw rattlesnakes (which is the most "dangerous" thing you mentioned out of all of those listed) almost on a daily basis and never once felt the need to carry a sidearm. I suspect the same type of mentality which causes people to have an irrational fear of "rattlesnakes, bears, cougars, etc" is the same type of irrational fear that makes people afraid of illegal immigrants.

[jody]

24. Your post is your opinion about the author's opinion. Which is "obvious bullshit"? The author

lives in the cited area so her comments are based on observation in contrast to those speculations of people from other states.

[MajorChode]

28. The biggest difference here is that my "opinion" is based on actual facts

And so was Rachel Maddow's. If the article you posted was within a cab ride of reality, why doesn't the statistical information regarding crime reflect it? In fact, it reflects the exact opposite. If someone says something that flies in the face of actual hard data, then there should be some valid reason to suspect the data isn't valid and the author sure as hell doesn't provide any other than some vague and unverifiable claim that the 'post office doesn't deliver anymore because of the crime'. That's why it's obvious bullshit.

You are aware very detailed statistics are kept on such matters, yes? So you expect people to completely disregard such data just because someone has an anecdotal account that claims the opposite? You put far too much stock in such accounts and far too little on metrics that actually track such things. Claiming that because someone doesn't live there, they must not know what they are talking about is a cop out.

If you want to repeat RW talking points, more power to you. Just try not to take offense when such things are easily debunked (as RW nonsense generally always is).

[Lasher]

33. That is a very good point.

If there is a problem with crime along the border, except for the crime of entering the US illegally, where are the statistics? Where are the stories from credible news organizations about murder and other violent crimes?

[MajorChode]

34. There isn't any, but there's plenty of lies and misinformation

In order for the right to use this issue politically, they have to make it appear as if it's much worse than it really is and they must perpetuate the myth that the trend is continuing in the wrong direction even as it goes the opposite. Naturally there's those pesky facts that keep getting in the way, but there's no shortage of people who have no use for facts.

I've spent a lot of time around the Texas boarder with Mexico. What's different today is you literally have armies of CBP agents all along the border which are far better equipped than they ever have been. Despite this massive influx of manpower and money, all it really does is move the problem to other areas. Unless you really spend some time on the border and looking at all the challenges of securing it, it's very difficult to grasp the monumental challenge involved. Is it possible to 'secure' the border, as the wingnuts suggest? Possibly, so long as we are willing to spend hundreds of billions more than we already have, but that cost would eclipse any benefit in doing so, which means the 'cure' is far worse than the disease. If we were really interested in mitigating this problem, the solutions aren't that complicated. Common sense immigration reform and drug policy reform are the only realistic answers, but the problem for the right is these things are progressive, so they are never going to buy into them. Instead they are content to perpetuate the problem and capitalize politically from it through demagoguery, racism, and xenophobia, while blaming the left all the while. Maddow cuts through all that bullshit and reveals it for exactly what it is. I can certainly understand the RW useful idiots buying into this crap as such people are ripe for their base emotions to be manipulated, but it's quite another when you see someone who claims to be on the left repeating their mindless talking points. There's no room for intolerance on the left and I have no tolerance for it.

[Lasher]

36. There's plenty of misinformation being spread by both sides on this emotional issue.

Such as your attempt to characterize views as those of the right. GWB and a number of other Republicans tried unsuccessfully to enact immigration reforms that many of us here agreed with. But that didn't make him and his cronies good Democrats, and it didn't make any of us Republicans if we agreed with him on this one issue.

If someone doesn't buy into your idea of common sense reforms, don't be so quick to dismiss their arguments by labeling them as racists, etc. They just might have a fair point, and they just might be good Democrats even if they disagree with you on this issue.

[MajorChode]

38. I don't think you know what my "ideas" are

I'm not talking about everything proposed by the right or the left. I'm talking about the same lies that Maddow was talking about which is what the article referenced by the OP is talking about which is the context on which I am basing my statement. I'm not saying everything proposed by the right regarding immigration is racist.

The motive behind the RW lies spread about illegal immigration sure as hell is about racism. Those who perpetuate those lies are either racists themselves or they refuse to check facts before they perpetuate those lies which makes them useful idiots of the RW smear machine. I'm not sure which is worse really.

Cheers!

[EFerrari]

29. One opinion against all the data. Hmm, which should I believe?

Maybe three opinions, from journalists who live on and write about the border, trumps one opinion?

:eyes:

From the 2010 Tucson Festival of Books a panel on writing on and living near the U.S. and Mexican Border. The panelists included Margaret Regan, The Death of Josseline: Immigration Stories from the Arizona-Mexico Borderlands; Philip Caputo, Crossers: A Novel; and David Danelo, The Border: Exploring the U.S.-Mexican Divide. The panel was moderated by Tom Miller, author of Revenge of the Saguaro: Offbeat Travels Through America's Southwest.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

[Lasher]

37. I'm with you on this one.

You're right for a change.

:P

[Forest Dweller]

43. Mail

This is author of that bullshit article...again. The reply I got from the postmaster was that the mail carrier had a scary experience with an illegal, and the decision was not based on a scary experience related to just the road. If you would like to find out for yourself, you can call the Patagonia, AZ post office. You sure like that word: bullshit. I have two extra rooms detached from the house, if you would like to do your own investigative reporting piece to prove me wrong. The invitation is open.

[MajorChode]

45. Wow! One mail carrier had a "scary experience"

Time to call out the National Guard and declare martial law!

I'll make a deal with you. I'll walk down any 10 mile section of the border you care to name if you walk down a 10 block section of Dallas that I name (which mail carriers still deliver, BTW).

Cheers!

[Forest Dweller]

51. I don't think I'd like to spend time with you....

So, I rescind my offer. You may have your opinion, even though I don't agree with it. You are fixed in your views, so have a happy life.

[MajorChode]

54. Pot/Kettle

I'm more than happy to discuss my views, and unlike you I don't require others I discuss them with to agree as a condition for discussion and I fully recognize I may not be right about everything.

Cheers!

[Forest Dweller]

55. You and I agree

about everything with the exception of Maddow's scouts to Nogales.

I placed the mail carrier incident under "inconveniences", not a "danger" heading. I agree that one incident with an illegal is no reason to halt mail. No one, except you has brought that up. Mail carriers face danger in bad neighborhoods all the time. They are bitten by dogs that potentially could have rabies. Yet, the mail was halted for this one incident. They did not say the halting was due to roads or budgetary concerns. The roads are maintained nicely for the Border Patrol by the county. There was no budgetary concern. They did not replace the woman mail carrier with a male, because that is a whole other can of worms. The reason they got away with that, is that there was a "possibility" that she "could have been" raped, as a woman. No disrespect to the mail carrier, as I understand that she was freaked out and very upset by the incident, which I view as a carjacking attempt, not a rape attempt.

Twice, Tony Estrada has told Maddow where the problems really are in his county. Yet, his Lieutenant took Maddow's scouts to the Port of Entry downtown, where the LEGAL folks come through. This is the main issue that I have. It's more an issue with the scouts who spent a couple hours in Nogales, because were in a hurry to get back to Tucson for a Maddow Show Watch Party at a bar. They spent more time in Tucson than in Nogales. You and I don't agree on this and it is fine with me.

[MajorChode]

56. You have very little knowledge of where the "problems" actually are

Even with the increased enforcement in more urban areas, that's still where most of the illegal traffic comes across. The reason is because once they are across, they can blend in with the local population relatively easily. In more rural areas, the patrols are less dense, but it's nearly impossible for them to blend in with the local population. So they often must cross 20 miles or more on foot to get past the checkpoints with no safe houses to protect and shield them. That's not an easy task given the various sensors that are in use, the air patrols, the ground patrols, and the local population turning them in when they see them. A good amount of that traffic is desperate people and drug mules and both of those groups very rarely bother anyone to any significant degree.

In the last 3 years there have only been 5 or so CBP agents who died in the line of duty and that includes traffic accidents and heart attacks. Despite the rough terrain and other challenges, CBP is one of the safest law enforcement jobs in the country. Meter maids have a more dangerous job. So given the relative safety of the very people who are on the front line dealing with this "problem" on a daily basis, you actually expect people to believe that people like you are in "danger" from illegal border crossings? Your risk driving to the grocery store is far greater. Your risk of getting hit by a bolt of lightening is far greater. Sorry, but your claims just don't pass the smell test just like the RW bullshit artists that keep perpetuating those myths.

What you keep failing to understand is that Maddow's story was about McCain, your illustrious dipshit Governor and many other Republicans going on national TV and lying through their teeth. It isn't about your irrational fear that maybe someday some brown person might knock on your door and ask you for a drink of water. That's why even if your 'argument' were valid (and it ain't), the very BEST you can do is strawman bullshit. At worst you are being duplicitous. Useful idiot of the RW would be somewhere in the middle.

Cheers!

[Forest Dweller]

57. Where do you keep coming up with

this stuff? I clearly said that I feel safe, safe enough to move to the area. The only time the gun issue was brought up was to calm my husband who was not familiar with the area prior to moving here. I've camped in the area from the time I was a small child, without guns, up until a couple months before moving here. I don't wish to militarize the border because that would actually make matters worse. You keep reading into it as I am scared, which I am not. Why do you keep reading into those parts of it and inserting your own opinion about my motivation or intention? I say these things very clearly in the article, which are in agreement with your stance.

For clarification regarding your latest assumption about me, I run into the immigrants in the forest and I don't shoot them, nor do I flee. When they have come into my yard, they drink water from my hose and I don't shoot or bother them. They haven't knocked on the door, as warned about. I am VERY distressed that some of them die alone in the forest. The immigrants who do seek aid, DO get get aid from the residents. The residents around here DO help them when they approach a front door and send them on their way, even though they were told not to.

The inconveniences I mentioned in the article are due to the Border Patrol and the Post Office. I also made it a point to say that despite the warnings from the Border Patrol, none of what they warned me about has come to pass.

I must have somehow missed Maddow's point that her scout trip was aimed at McCain and Brewer and not a thumbing of the nose at border residents. That's what it looked like to me.

[MajorChode]

59. The gun issue was brought up by someone else

In your article you seem to imply that you are contradicting Maddow. If so, you would certainly do better to be clear about what you are contradicting and on what basis. You also quite clearly gave the impression you are living in fear.

Your words, not mine:

The only other thing that I won’t do is travel through the forest alone at night.
...
Additionally, the home is safe with security doors and windows. There is a high level of Border Patrol presence. We also own firearms.
...
Snipers / lookouts on the mountain tops
...
The drug cartels, however, didn’t direct human traffic through here, sitting on hilltops and peaks with their automatic weapons.
...
If the Border Patrol pulls out from the area, or if they significantly decrease the agents covering the area, I might consider moving.
...

On and on it goes. Are you actually trying to claim my "assumptions" are out of line? Now you are downgrading your hyperbole to just "inconveniences". What are you trying to say, exactly? Are you trying to claim the border is dangerous or is it just an "inconvenience"? If you are simply saying it's an "inconvenience" then how exactly is Maddow "mocking" you?

If you didn't get the impression that Maddow's trip was aimed at McCain and other Republicans' lies, did you actually see it on TV? That's what she talked about almost exclusively. I don't know how you could get any other impression if you had actually seen it. The walk along the border was more of a backdrop piece that's very common in the media. Are you just basing your opinion of her on what you heard from others?

[Forest Dweller]

60. Here are your answers. If I am not clear, ask me to clairfy.

The only other thing that I won’t do is travel through the forest alone at night.
...Yes, the Border Patrol said traveling alone is dangerous through the forest at night, and said not to do it. So, I won't do it. Of course, I have gone out with my husband a couple times and have come back after 1am with no incident except for cows in the road. I have no idea if this is a fact that night time is dangerous, but that's what the Border Patrol says. However, if the government agencies instruct against traveling at night, I do give this some level of seriousness. However, camping here was never an issue, like I said. So, my personal experience vs. what they say, differs at this time. I recently camped with friends and family in the area and wasn't scared. It could just be that the BP don't want civilians in the way in the busy time of the night. Campers generally don't drive and get in the way.

Additionally, the home is safe with security doors and windows. There is a high level of Border Patrol presence. We also own firearms.
...These were all things that I sold my husband on to be able to move, since I have camped in the area and know the area (and the "inconveniences") of the area much better than he does. Also, you can't argue about the Border Patrol presence. They are everywhere around here. I do emphasize that fact. The problem is that they come out of two stations: Nogales and Sonoita and don't communicate with each other very well. Also, their equipment does not work in the mountains to communicate with even those who are on their own team. So, we are pulled over all the time, mostly by the Nogales station who does not patrol where the house is. Nogales has the grocery store, so that's the road where we go through to get our groceries, otherwise it adds 40 plus miles to the trip. It requires driving through a narrow mountain pass where you cannot turn around. Past that mountain pass, there are additional signs instructing drivers NOT to pull of the road for any reason. I have to get pictures of those signs. This is the same road where Estrada also acknowledges the lookouts and snipers. The Nogales police officers were on that road when threatened for finding drugs off duty. The cartels don't mind if law enforcement finds the drugs while on duty, because drug enforcement is just the job of law enforcement. It would help to have a "resident" sticker on our vehicle, but they don't trust anyone even for that. American grandmothers and high school students have smuggled drugs into the country, some getting caught. So, in these rough economic times, the BP trusts no one. The cartels offer very good money for citizens to smuggle drugs. The Border Patrol pulls over residents who were born here and lived here for their entire lives for this reason. I can't say I blame them for that. They have no clue who is who, which I think is a waste of their time and ours. Yet, they do have reason to not trust us, since the cartels do pay so well. My husband and I try to minimize this mistrust by the border patrol by talking to them often. They rotate through here pretty frequently, so it's hard to become acquainted. So, we just get pulled over on the way to town all the time. As long as they aren't gun happy, since many look like they just graduated from high school, it's fine with me to get pulled over all the time.

Snipers / lookouts on the mountain tops The drug cartels, however, didn’t direct human traffic through here, sitting on hilltops and peaks with their automatic weapons.
...The snipers and lookouts ARE there. This is even supported by Sheriff Estrada and was shared with Maddow during TV interviews on Maddow's show, which I watched. I do watch Maddow. So, as far as the snipers and lookouts: As long as you don't bother their drugs, you are fine. So, Maddow did accept this fact of life around here as fact. Estrada accepts it. Also, the blog entries on Maddow's blog, made by Laura Conaway on 8/11, regarding the 8/10 visit is what I also had a problem with. Conaway provided much more documentation for the bar visit than the visit to the Nogales Port of Entry that same day. Yes, I watch Maddow and many other talking heads on both sides. Hannity, for example, thinks that the border is in Tucson. He said: "And I've been to the Rio Grande and I've been in the border in Tucson and I've been to San Diego. So I've been there and I've been out with Border Patrol." Okay...the border is not in Tucson. Anyway, we saw that show and here is the transcript: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/07/28/interview_with_arizona_governor_jan_brewer_on_hannity_106538.html My husband and I had a good laugh at that one. Much of my problem is the media reporting of the problem on both sides. Each county is different, depending on who is in charge of it.

If the Border Patrol pulls out from the area, or if they significantly decrease the agents covering the area, I might consider moving.
...That depends. I said my point of view might change if I was a victim of a crime. If the BP left or decreased their presence and things got bad, I would leave. So, far, the migrants have only caused property damage, which we have not reported to law enforcement over the last six months. Most people don't report things like that to law enforcement. There's no point to it. I have renter's insurance, so it depends on how severe the damage before I get the crime report to report it to the insurance company. It's easier to just fix it an move on. The most recent incident was a migrant getting water while we were gone and damaging a fence to get to it. This is the homeowner's set up around here. We aren't authorized to change anything, but do get permission to fix if there is damage.

[MajorChode]

61. CBP and the police have a vested interest in promoting irrational fear

Irrational fear is what gives them their numbers. Irrational fear is what gives them job security. Irrational fear is what pays their overtime and pays for their new equipment, and everything else they do. Irrational fear also encourages the locals to help them more so than they might otherwise. To a great extent, the sheriff offices do the same thing for the same reasons with the exception of they have even more of a direct political motive for doing so. The dipshit Sheriff Joe is a great example of this. So don't be so sure that everything a CBP agent or a local LEO tells you is the gospel. They have their own reasons for telling you things that may or may not be true or are incredibly exaggerated. I've been with them and seen them lie to people. Many times they do it for very good reasons at least as far as they are concerned. Irrational fear serves their purposes very well.

Lookouts do exist in great numbers. Many are indeed armed. I've personally seen them many times. That doesn't mean they are snipers. They are monitoring CBP patrols for the most part and it's almost unheard of for them to shoot at them or anyone else north of the border. A CBP agent told me they had a lookout get bored and started taking pot shots at CBP agents. It raised so much of a stink that they found him tied to a telephone pole north of the border after receiving a call from one of the cartels offering them the gift. The cartels aren't stupid. The violence might be great south of the border, but they aren't stupid enough to let it migrate north. Violence north of the border brings unwanted attention to what they are doing and is counterproductive to their mission. That doesn't mean it doesn't occasionally happen. The people they hire aren't always the sharpest tools in the shed.

Lots of locals do work for the cartels doing intelligence work and providing many other services. That much is absolutely true. Those people aren't dangerous. They are simply doing a job (albeit an illegal one in many instances).

Hannity is a bullshit monger. Not knowing shit from beans about a subject never stopped him from mouthing off about it. Promoting lies and irrational fear based on racism, xenophobia, and garden variety stupidity is what he does. It has served the Republican cause for many years. He has no use for truth, reality, facts, and reason because those things don't serve his cause. Maddow spends pretty much all of her time debunking that bullshit and this example is no exception. She bases her assertions on relevant facts which are well researched. There simply is no comparison between Maddow and Hannity other than both are pundits.

Cheers!

[Forest Dweller]

62. Well, you do work with them

and you do recognize my situation. I mind my own business and do stay out of the way as much as I can. I was asked to give my take, since I am on the border and it was election time. I was honest, but did not state my opinion too much. Instead, I did a comparison with my great great grandfather's time in the same area in the late 1850's. When my dad grew up here, it was much, much different in the 1950's and the 1960's than it is today. I am actually dropping the border issue and sticking from now on to my regular topic. I'm glad that we did come to an understanding about it. Thank you for sticking with me and hearing me out.

[Forest Dweller]

69. Like you said, it looks like a lookout got bored

and shot at an agent...Actually the shots may have come from a vehicle across the border near that road where the lookouts are. Also, the road that the BP said that it's not advisable to drive down at night.
http://nogalesinternational.com/articles/2010/08/28/news/doc4c77d7250eff1337335127.txt

[philly_bob]

25. Thanks. They really don't deliver mail??? (nt)

[tourivers83]

26. Faith: Belief without evidence.

From your post I imagine that firearms could be people in that areas constant companions. And I would think real military grade rifles and 30-30 Winchesters. Not some little pop gun a city girl would carry. My partner and I live out in the county and although 911 response would only be fifteen to twenty minutes away we have some rather serious firepower. We also have two ferocious Pomeranians and a Poodle. :pals:

[LanternWaste]

58. simply trust in that of which you do not have full knowledge...

"Belief without evidence..."

Classically, it is simply trust in that of which you do not have full knowledge-- something we all practice numerous time throughout a given day.

[MajorChode]

30. Here is the actual Rachel Maddow story

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/08/03/4805664-factcheck-on-the-arizona-border

She actually details FACTS, and talks to the sheriff of the same county (who presumably lives there also and should know at least a little about the subject). I guess reality is just to hard for some to bear when they get ahold of a good piece of RW bullshit they desperately want to believe is true.

[GoldenOldie]

31. The Sheriff of Santa Cruz County, Tony Estrada ..............

is located in Nogales while the area which the writer is talking about is approximately 1-hr or more away....thus a 9-11 call is not much of an option for the few citizens who work and live in these mountains. They know who Tony Estrada is, but they rarely ever get to see him or his deputies. They have to rely on the US Border agents who continually travel these back roads and mountains. Guns be the pistols, rifles, etc., there is also a need for ranchers because this area is continually under watch for wild rabid animals, which are not only a danger for the locals but also the cattle, dogs and horses and attempts must be made to contain them within this area. No one said that the drug cartels have crossed over the borders and killed Americans...border crime stats. And their have always been hard working illegals crossing back and forth across the border looking for work and then returning home. Because of increased demand by Americans for drugs, and low-paying workers to perform the hard and dirty jobs for the American Corporate Farm factories, there has been an increase in the drug-runners and coyotes (those who bring in the illegals). Yes there is a constant heavy stream of illegals across this area of Southern Arizona because this path across the border maynot be the easiest, but because of the terrain it is the hardest to patrol. Along with coping with the scattered waste the immigrants and drug runners leave behind, the residents/ranchers never know when they may come upon a body or if they may face a desperate individual willing to do harm.

[MajorChode]

32. First it was "rattlesnakes, bears, cougars" now it's "wild rabid animals"

Do you actually realize how ridiculous your argument is? And even if any of that ridiculous notion were correct, that situation sure as hell hasn't changed in the past 50 years, so any 'need' to carry a weapon hasn't changed in the last couple of years since the RW fringe nuts have been squealing about the so-called surge in crime along the border.

No one said that the drug cartels have crossed over the borders and killed Americans

That's exactly what the RW fear machine is suggesting, by claiming that crime rates have soared when they haven't (which is a myth you choose to perpetuate). THAT is what Maddow is debunking. Even if you could actually believe the nonsense claimed by the author of the article, the very best you could say about the argument is it's strawman bullshit.

[Forest Dweller]

42. What is bullshit

The article that I wrote was not from a RW perspective. I am moderate in my perspective, at best. Crime rates, based on things that are reported, since most of us look the other way is irrelevant. The poster that you reply to is actually correct. The poster looks like they are basing opinion on all the points and facts, rather than just on what Maddow tells people to think. So, are you a border resident? Are you calling my perspective bullshit based on actual life experience, or based on what Maddow tells you to think? Please reply, because I would really like to know.

[MajorChode]

44. Your article was strawman bullshit

That's what I'm calling it. Maddow never mentioned your area. She was debunking the RW myth that crime due to illegal immigration is soaring. She posted video of the RW claims, and she debunked them soundly using actual facts that are widely available. You know, facts instead of meaningless anecdotal information. Facts like apprehensions, down. Violent crime in AZ, down. Property crime in AZ, down. All of this is contrary to RW claims.

You call accuse Maddow of mocking and condescending you because she didn't knock on your door and ask you what you think. Give me a break. The facts speak for themselves. Even if your anecdotal information is accurate (and there's really not much reason to suspect it is), it only represents your very narrow perspective. Maddow wasn't speaking to your very limited view, she was speaking to what the RW bullshit claims were and what the reality is. So you're trying to contradict something she never claimed in the first place. That's what's known as strawman bullshit. For further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

If you need a picture:


As far as my experience goes, I work with CBP as part of my job and I'm on a first name basis with dozens of CBP agents, most of which work in intelligence. I work with 5 out of the 9 sectors that patrol the US land border with Mexico. I've been on patrols sitting right next to agents in the air, on the ground, and in the water. I frequently go camping in state and federal parks (where CBP patrols are practically non-existent) within a stones throw of the border on many occasions and I've NEVER carried a gun and never felt the slightest need for one. Do I know what it's like in your very tiny section of the border? No, not any more than Maddow does, but I sure as hell do know what it's like on the border and I know irrational fear when I see it.

Cheers!

[Forest Dweller]

46. Oh well...

Well, thoughout this thread, you have called my point of view bullshit. At least twice, contacting the the author (me) was suggested. Here I am to answer any questions you may have. Still, you don't wish to consider other points of view. That's fine with me. To each his own. Have a nice day.

[TheKentuckian]

48. Are you fighting to end vice enforcement and to enforce employer obligation for wages

and documentation as required by law?

Working to reverse poverty and environmental conditions on both sides of the border?

If not you're pissing up a rope and crying that you're getting wet and if you are spread the word and keep up the real right to fix the problem.

[MajorChode]

49. I don't have any questions. The bullshit article was pretty much self explanatory

I also explained in detail why it was bullshit. I even provided a picture if you couldn't understand the words. I fully considered your point of view, read it in its entirety and called it out for exactly what it was. If you can't handle your "point of view" getting challenged, don't post it on a public forum. It's a pretty simple concept really. Instead of addressing what I actually posted, you simply falsely accused me of not understanding your "point of view", so pretty much you're just slinging the same bovine excrement.

If you want to address Maddow's report, you might at least try contradicting what she actually said rather than what you wish she had said. Again, these are simple basic concepts, but you appear to be wholly unable to grasp them.

Cheers!

[Forest Dweller]

52. I didn't post it here...

I found it here. I figured that since so many were questioning it, I'd make myself available to answer questions.

[MajorChode]

53. I'm well aware of that

You did post it on a public forum and someone reposted it on DU for comment including the original link which I followed and read.

Since you're new on DU, you may not understand how things work here. The name of this particular forum is General Discussion. It is intended for the discussion of issues. We discuss issues quite vigorously, and bullshit rarely flies for very long before someone points it out for what it is. If you don't like having your point of view challenged, you may not want to participate.

Cheers!

[Forest Dweller]

41. Thank you

From the writer of that post, I thank you for offering this perspective on my behalf. What you assert is true.

[Forest Dweller]

40. Maddow's piece

Maddow may actually present facts, but she shows the border at the Port of Entry in Nogales. I live where the Sheriff says that there is a problem.

[Forest Dweller]

39. A "point" from the author of the article.

Hello, there were questions raised and statements made about
the article I wrote, "Life on the Arizona-Mexico Border:
A look at life in my neck of the woods". I will address
those after you read my latest post.
http://tucsoncitizen.com/tc-off-topic/2010/08/26/even-the-pointless-forest-has-a-point-says-oblio/

[JonLP24]

50. Need reform

Mexican citizens are being killed and tortured by human smugglers. The reason Phoenix is the "kidnapping capital of the US" is because these smuggling organizations kidnap these people, hold them for ransom, if they family doesn't pay they're dead and they will kidnap someone that looks Mexican to replace one if one does escape. Also people who do escape, more often than not, don't report these people because they're undocumented and they'll be right if they do report it, that they will be deported. The undocumented people picked up in drop houses and sent over to ICE to be deported. The reasons so many take this dangerous route is because in many places it is not possible to make a living wage and the process to get in this country is not very easy. For one, the US government can only accept a certain amount from each country. Meaning, the max that they can accept from a certain country is the same. The quota is the same for Denmark or Mexico even though Mexico has by far the most applicants.

Need reform. What I'm talking about.
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2010-08-12/news/seized-inside-the-brutal-world-of-america-s-kidnapping-capital/

[GoldenOldie]

63. Amazing how a poster is attacked for citing personal observations??

Cherlyn Gardner Strong was giving her personal opinions and observations of the Arizona border problems within that area in which she is familiar with based on family history. Because her family have lived along the border for generations and cites the connections with her hispanic heritage, she is mocked. Those posters that seem to be all knowing on this specific area of Arizona and compare it to mountains in El Paso, Texas and the San Diego border haven't a clue of what they are talking about. I don't carry arms and I don't approve of the Republican Arizona gun laws.....yet, I do understand the need for these isolated ranchers who have to check their water tanks and their cattle which consist of overseeing many sections of land.....a section = 620 acres. And to add another reason for a rancher to tote a gun, at times, they find a badly injured cow/bull who has to be euthanized/killed.....they could have even been bit by a rattlesnake....I'm sure I'll get a snide comment about this add on!
Many of these ranchers travel alone, therefore they must be prepared (the rancher killed near Douglas, was on flat land, and he was alone).

For those who have all the answers and feel superior with only the correct information, observation and experiences, you truly have closed minds. Arizona, like many other states, where within 50-miles the terrain completely changes. You can be sweltering along the desert floor with saguaro and cacti and within an hour you can be in the lush green mountains or craggy mountainous walls. I would not dream of telling or mocking another poster on what their personal observations or experiences are within their own states, towns cities, rural areas. I choose to learn something new from them. Their are no simple solutions to the border problems because there is not just one problem....desperate human beings looking for work to survive, drug runners, human traffickers, extremely dangerous drug cartels in Mexico. The ranchers and locals are not and have never been afraid of those just looking for work, but the killing of the rancher in Douglas has left them a little more leery.

My family and I have listened to and watched Rachel Maddow from the beginning. We eagerly look forward to her very factual investigative reporting and she deserves every bit of praise for she is outstanding in what she does. My only comment was that I wished that her staff had spent more time within the area of Arizona that has the highest increase of border activity. As one poster stated, the staff could have spent more time along the border and less if any time at Hotel Congress in Tucson.

[MajorChode]

64. Nice job playing the victim

The story Maddow did had absolutely nothing to do with your personal situation or the situation of Cherlyn Gardner Strong. It had to do with debunking the campaign of lies and misinformation orchestrated by the RW pandering to their xenophobic and racist constituency. Maddow wasn't mocking anyone other than the RW bullshit mongers who stroke irrational fear and racism by spreading lies. If you want to pretend something to the contrary, you are effectively supporting those lies whether you realize it or not. If your delicate sensibilities lead you to believe that is an 'attack' when someone calls bullshit then I'm not sure what more can be said.

Cheers!

[GoldenOldie]

65. WOW! Now I'm not only a liar, I am a racist and a victim????

[MajorChode]

67. You just proved my point again beautifully

By all means, keep going. Soon there won't be a dry eye in the house.

Cheers!

[JonLP24]

66. WTF?

I'm very open minded about this and didn't attack anyone.

I said we need reform. This enforcement only approach isn't working and if it does anything, it drives the prices up for human smugglers and make people even more fearful of coming to the police.

Enforcement is GOOD. However you need reform measures to make it a JUST A LITTLE easier to come in to this country or claim asylum when cartels take over a city and corrupt a police department. Where do you think these people are going to go? We accept asylum at a higher rate from Columbia and they are facing similar problems. Just said we need reform to go along with enforcement. Enforcement ONLY is not working.