So, it's now Friday, and as I post this we haven't even reached 600 donations yet. Unless we experience some kind of miraculous and unprecedented turn-around, we aren't going to reach our goal of 1000 donations by Sunday night. But before you stop reading, the point of this post is not to beg you to dig deep and donate and put us over the top. On the contrary, the point of this post is to tell you this:

Message received.

You don't like what DU has become. Maybe you have very specific complaints, or maybe you don't really know exactly what it is that you don't like. But what you do know is that you wish it was more like the old DU. A community. A place that was special. Where we had big disagreements, but at least you felt like we all had something in common.

Yeah, I miss that DU, too.

I miss it so much that it makes my heart ache. I lie awake at night agonizing over it. I can barely bring myself to read my email anymore. I'm burned out and tired.

We (the DU Admins) knew that having a Democratic Administration would make things a lot more complicated and difficult here on DU, but I don't think we really had any clue how difficult it would be. I know that many of you believe the solution is simple. I know this because you send me scolding shame-on-you emails demanding that I do {whatever} and then DU would be better. I wish I shared your certainty.

We have been very cautious and deliberate in our attempts to improve the way we run DU, and I think -- especially on the moderator-side -- we have made a lot of very important progress. But the whole effort has the feeling of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Our approach has been to "do what we've always been doing, only better," but I am starting to think that much more radical change is necessary.

Here's the problem in a nutshell: Back when Bush was President, he represented the center of gravity in politics -- the focal point that determined "Which side are you on?" -- and everyone on DU actually was on the same side. Now that Barack Obama is President, he has become the center of gravity. I think it's clear that we still broadly agree on the issues, but we disagree on how best to get there, how long it should take, and how much compromise we are willing to accept. Those are the disagreements that matter now. To be blunt, we are not all on the same side anymore.

Imagine if during the Bush Administration, Democratic Underground had welcomed people who thought the president was doing a bad job, *and* people who thought the president was doing a good job. DU would have sucked. Sure, it might have been worth the effort to stop by every once in a while to argue with conservative idiots, but nobody would have felt like DU was their home, their safe-haven, their community.

This is the situation we face. Nobody is "safe" anymore. DU doesn't "belong" to anyone. We all want this to feel like a community, but we have two fairly large groups of people who each seem to believe that they are the rightful heirs to this community, and that the other side doesn't even have a legitimate claim to be here.

And here I am, grasping to the naive and outdated hope -- against all the available evidence -- that maybe we can all figure out a way to share DU.

I could "solve" our problems pretty easily by picking a side. If I did that, at least the people who would remain here would know that they own DU. They would know that they have a home and a safe haven again. And they would take comfort from knowing (finally) that the DU Admins are on their side, rather than cold, distant, unpredictable creatures whose allegiances are not entirely clear and who could turn on them at any moment.

But I am not prepared to give DU to either side. I see all the people who are still here (thank you for still being here, by the way, despite everything) -- some posting and some, sadly, only lurking -- and I see the people who built this community. Great people. Generous, big-hearted, smart, interesting people. Some of you might post strange and unpleasant things now -- including some things that cut very deeply -- but I remember what you were like before, and I remember how much I liked you then.

So we keep doing what we're doing. But I harbor this simmering doubt. I feel obligated to censor people, even though I have never liked doing it, and like it even less now than I ever have. I feel obligated to serve as an authority figure to a community of people (including myself) who are naturally skeptical of authority. I feel obligated to keep deleting posts and banning people, even though I know that each time I do it serves as "proof" that I have already picked a side, that I am already hopelessly biased, and that I cannot be trusted. I long to let you all take responsibility for yourselves, to give the community the ability to police itself and set its own limits, but in the past our efforts to do so have been rejected almost every time.

I think it might not be a bad thing that we're not going to reach our goal this fund drive. Perhaps it will provide us with justification to experiment with some really radical changes to this place. The Admins have discussed a lot of ideas, but we honestly don't know what's going to work, or what you all will be willing to accept. I think, to start, we're probably going to post some kind of member survey next week to better understand your attitudes, and get feedback on a bunch of different ideas. I'll be curious to learn if you are willing to try any of them.

Thanks for listening. And thank you for being part of this community.

i do think a lot of us are having financially difficult times.

several threads this week were eye openers.

I'm really not sure that the lack of donations is due to unhappiness about board postings. I DO believe that the lack of donations is due to the FACT that many many of us are still hanging on by the skin of our teeth. the economy is in the crapper. The lack of donations reflects that FACT.

There is a LOT of pain out there, and many are keeping their net going only because it has become (sometimes) the only way to apply for jobs. That means that everything else they would normally give to has to be put off. Robbing Peter to pay Paul isn't an option for many who are long-term unemployed or underemployed. Because quite literally that few bucks they may have given in the past is now needed to pay for their kid's lunch at school, or to put a couple of gallons of gas in their car to look for work.

Times are much harder than anyone wants to acknowledge.

I donated, but not nearly as much as I would like to have. Times are tight everywhere. But no matter what, DU is my home away from home.

I just got a job after being unemployed for a year. I wish that we could have donated more, but we can't until we get on a firmer footing. I appreciate DU a great deal. I have lurked more than posted over the last couple of years because things have gotten very intense and I would rather not get in the middle of the fight. I am addicted to reading DU though, it has been a daily ritual for me to come on here for the last few years.

It comes to the point where it is no longer possible to care when you aren't receiving care.

I'm on emergency unemployment now. I think, Skinner, perhaps the lack of donations is being taken too personally by the mods. I really think it's more about the economy and the fact that a lot of us are hurting right now. If the choice comes between paying for food and medicine and giving to DU, I'm going for the food and medicine.

Please consider this may be the more likely scenario. It's horrific out there.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/19/new-unemployme...

<snip>

WASHINGTON (AP) -- New applications for unemployment insurance reached the half-million mark last week for the first time since November, a sign that employers are likely cutting jobs again as the economy slows.

The Labor Department said Thursday that initial claims for jobless benefits rose by 12,000 last week to 500,000, the fourth increase in the past five weeks. Wall Street economists forecast that claims would drop.

The four-week average, a less volatile measure, rose by 8,000 to 482,500, the highest since December. There were no special factors that distorted the numbers, a Labor Department analyst said.

The increase suggests the economy is creating even fewer jobs than in the first half of this year, when private employers added an average of about 100,000 jobs per month. That's barely enough to keep the unemployment rate from rising. The jobless rate has been stuck at 9.5 percent for two months.

<snip>

Here's my $5.00. I'm afraid it's the best I can do. Maybe getting rid of some of the "extras" for awhile would help. There are ALOT of groups; maybe we just dont need that many.

I am lucky to have a job but with two family members and high medical bills as well as hospital, DU will have to wait.

Folks who allowed Torture. And I hate the unrecommend. I think we should start over. And I have no money either. I don't want to be in America anymore. I want to run far from here.

Maybe without it we'd see which types of forums would really be popular. I think I've used it once and was ashamed of myself...

time and again. I cannot fathom why anyone would think they serve any positive purpose.

The quality of the "news" articles that remain visible to the members

isn't what it used to be!

On the other hand, seems some members who used to be vigilant about posting

articles may have been some of those "purged"???

what the country has become in my long lifetime. It's no longer about "We the People." The majority of the people IMO. I feel duped, manipulated and propagandized anytime I listen to MSM, politicians and often much of the internet.

I donated what I could. Just means eating less beef.

I watch this short video and remember how it felt on November 4, 2008:


Run time: 00:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZYjVL1sc7w

I watch this short video and remember how it felt on November 4, 2008:


Run time: 00:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZYjVL1sc7w


Just wanted to be able to find it later - I'm putting it in my journal too.

And Skinner - I don't know what the answer is to the questions in your OP. I'm just glad DU is here, warts and all, to post, to vent, to read, to lurk, to learn, to be broadened and enlightened and expanded, and yeah, sometimes infuriated. But at least we know we're among friends and family here - and certainly friends and family argue. But they're still friends and family after all is said and done.

Keep up the good work (or, hell, even what you might be concerned that might be bad work)! We all needed, bickering as we go.

And btw - I also agree that plain ol' economics may play a larger part here. There's LOTSA hurt out there, in the DU community and beyond. Unless you're a major corporation, you are probably feeling pain - and maybe a great deal of pain.

We love you Skinner, and we love DU!

And - uh - to my fellow DUers - because I MYSELF love DU and hate to see people unhappy and hurting, please allow me to be a Machiavellian pig-dog for a moment here (begging your forgiveness in advance):

If you're having a glum moment, PLEEEEEEEZE consider a little tonic (at least a temporary one) that I put in the sticky collection - about my kid's band. Please go check out their music (if you like alt/rock music, that is) and rock out for a few moments and forget about your troubles for maybe three minutes or so, at a time. You might actually feel a little better for a little while. Won't cost anything just to click on "PLAY!"

http://www.acidicband.com
http://www.facebook.com/ACIDICband
http://www.myspace.com/ACIDICband

It's the economy, stupid.

The DLCers and the Progressives will always be at odds.

I do. And I have sort of created my own DU-type community. But DU is still important to me. Maybe, Skinner, we need to create a stronger DU presence on Facebook. I think we could leverage that somehow. If I think of any good ideas for how to do that, I'll shoot you a msg.

I don't think DU has ever tracked your retail preferences and taste in site visiting and and needs you might post about and sold them to the highest bidder.

Facebook does. Why do you think Newscorp bought a chunk of MySpace? Don't be naiive enough to think they aren't coming after Facebook next.

Whatever you do on DU, I sincerely doubt it is as public or your web preferences as commercialized and filed as they are with Facebook.

I don't do Facebook...something about the concept bugs me. I would never put my real name out there or a picture. Maybe it's because I attract 'weirdos' IRL and I don't want to start the same attraction online.

Plus I'm old. And I love privacy.

Thanks.

I managed this drive (because I haven't looked at my bills this month yet - something may be short but not DU this time - heh) but I know last drive I almost didn't make it at all.

I know there is fighting over real issues but it doesn't really bother me that much, I am sorry people are feeling left out of the community they helped form.

I do hate seeing the stupid shit from last year reappearing in the lounge, like some kind of sick anniversary event.

but,.... The end of this month, I'll have been a proud DUer for 3 years. I'd guess that fact denies me the ability to recall the "good old days" of DU. But reading your post, Skinner - the thing that whacked me right betwixt the peepers is that your summation is almost exactly the predicament that makes the Democratic Machine to seem unable to move with clarity and focus.
With the GOP, you have legions of dullards who can't be bothered to sort things out objectively. It's SO easy to point them in one direction. Kinda like iron filings aligning themselves with magnetic lines of force. It's not a fraternity for thinking folks.

The flip side is a community of thinkers. Lots an lots of folks with receptive, reflective, conceptive noggins. Folks that actually KNOW what compassion is, and don't have to have catchy slogans to remind them of it. Folks that think outside of their own selfish interests - free of predjudice and presumption. These points (qualities) and more make for a mix so complex that it oft times defies any attempt to summarize it. That is the Democratic party - how COULD DU be expected to even come close to the hypnotic trance allegiance that the faithful of Fox "news" perform under???

Stop losing sleep, Skinner. There was a revered leader who once observed that you can't please everybody all the time. I donated cause I can, but I know alot of folks who are trying to figure out how they're gonna eat. And that's no joke! Local food bank shelves here are BARE - not just skimpy, but BARE. That's never happened before.

Astute summary of the differences between GOP "iron filings" and Dem unherdable cats.

flat busted. This place is my refuge and I've always been a paying member. I will again, Skinner. I wish everyone would give a dollar each time then this place would sing.

credit cards are tight, and our money is being spread between 4 households.

There are many times that I have thought of you and the rest of the crew wondering how in the hell you can deal with all of this. Democratic Underground is not what it used to be, but I will continue to support it because I believe that we can, one day, get back.

God Speed.

sure to put a check in the mail early next week. DU is definitely the best internet site for progressive and liberal democrats.

H20 Man.

I love the diversity here.

Things change, but I still think Will Rogers got it right..."I don't belong to an organized political party; I'm a Democrat." And that's more obvious when we're in power than when we're not.

edited to add: well, you're one donation closer, anyway!
DU Admin and mods are the best on the Internet!!!

They didn't get death threats from expressing their view.

The atmosphere in this country and on DU has become hateful because we accept it as inevitable. Older generations are appalled.

death threats are okay if you are a good writer

Death threats = forgivable and the poster is un-TSed.

Posting the number 7 = un-fucking-forgivable, not no way, not no how, person stays TSed forever.

We can't talk about the issues that, at one time, meant something to the Democratic Party.

Equal rights?
-We are asking for too much when we ask to be considered equal human beings under the law.

Poverty? The Reagan Bootstrap Mantra gets hurled at you like you deserve only the worst life has to offer.

Care about Social Security? You are not being "pragmatic." Never mind the fact that the LAST Democratic president left Social Security stable and possibly savable.

Have a problem with re-segregating public schools AND only funding schools for the richer neighborhoods? Some teacher was mean to somebody when they were five fucking years old and that person never got over it. So, all teachers are bad and deserve public floggings and poor kids deserve to dodge bullets to go to underfunded public schools.

Health care? Somehow, it is ABSOLUTELY impossible for America to have health care like Canada's system. Canada has it, but, NOOOOOOOO, for us, IM-fucking-POSSIBLE.
Since when has America been the country that says "We can't?" Since when has America been the country that gives the fuck up before ever even trying to make something better?

And we are supposed to pretend that all of this is ok? Why is out and out Reaganism the new Democratic Party? There is so much wrong with this picture, I don't even know where to begin.

Sorry for ranting, but I heard what happened and I'm not happy about it. If it wasn't for the fact that I can find news here that MSM would never show, I'd probably quit loading DU any more, sadly. There is just something WAY wrong here.

when people defended the fact that Obama had Rick Warren say a prayer during the inauguration. Warren was, is, and always will be a homophobe. Our president reached out to him. Very fucking sad.

"If it wasn't for the fact that I can find news here that MSM would never show, I'd probably quit loading DU any more, sadly. There is just something WAY wrong here."

I feel I'm not allowed to express honest concerns that I have.

you are in, between a rock and a hard place. Yes, it's worse here than it ever was under idiot son despite the fact we have a Dem president. I wish I could help you with an answer that wouldn't alienate anyone because we are all parts of this whole that is DU.

I hope you find the wisdom of Solomon, but will support whatever decisions you have to make to make DU a bit friendlier place to come to during these contentious times.

And thanks to all of you, and the mods, for all of your efforts.

Much appreciated!

i will donate, kpete

p.s. I think DU is still an amazing place!

that's the problem with the fund raiser but people's anxiety about parting with their money.

Remember the polarity during the Democratic Primary? DU made it's contribution goals and the place held together.

completely what's going on! Do appreciate your comments though!

you "geek" because of my perceptions on situations that have evolved here! I post less and less myself and it really has nothing to do with the economy! But I've never had a lot of extra money to donate overall! Still I have managed to donate in the past!

And I also like your analogy about the 4 types! Having been attacked sternly in the past I've tried to veer away from getting into "dog fights" most of the time! Still I have been surprised at some of the UGLINESS that has gone on, as there are those who continually FIGHT no matter what!

While I disagree with issues, I don't stubbornly reply to the nastier comments made to me!

never felt the need to until then.. I know that most of the ones still on it have gone bye-bye, but I am still amazed at "some" people here who always have a devil's advocate stance on anything, and who always have something nasty to say in their attempt to disagree.

He's very depressed & has been looking, but so far nothing.. In another month he'll be losinig his house

I want to write an essay on how things just seem to disintegrating around me as a result of my impoverished condition. I've lost my car registration due to an inability to pay fees, but I'm still obligated to drive the car if I don't want to be homeless and hungry. Forced to be a criminal because of my inability to keep up with MVA fees . . . I feel like shit most of the time these days. I don't think I've ever been this pessimistic.

I thought I would never get out from under it all. I'm still paying some things off from that period and my retirement was wiped out.

It may not be worse, but two years of bad is worse than one year of bad. It's had a continued effect on people's abilities to give. (Not intending to deflect blame from the Bush years, just making a point on effect.)

In 2009, I think a lot of people still had hope for the economy. Now it's become so evident that the banks, Wall St., etc., don't give a fuck about anything other than their profits and are driving the country into bankruptcy by sitting on their money and not investing. Hope is in very short supply these days. I fear I will be supporting my 25 year old son forever, which puts a severe drain on my wallet. I will donate a few bucks, but I sure can understand why many can't afford to.

than they were then just because it's been going on so long.

My best friend (not a member here) has been struggling for two years. She managed to keep her head above water until just recently, but she's finally gone under. She's gone through her savings and she's lost her business and she's losing her home and she and her daughter are going to be moving in with me soon, because she can't afford the up-front costs to rent a crappy two-room apartment.

There are so many others like her. Some, maybe many, are members here.

I am deeply sorrowful that she and so many others are watching their lives turned upside down after years of being good, productive citizens who worked hard to make their own way through life and do the right thing. Bless you for caring!

drowning it just really sucks.

is after a year of unemployment, all reserves are used up and the situation does feel much more frantic and dire. So on a personal level, it's worse.

because it is for my family.

In that case, good for you.


I can't afford to donate to DU at this time.

I just picked up a bit of work, but the hole I find myself in is deep at this point. Creditors call nonstop. When you owe others money you really don't have the right to make donations.

It's tough for many of us.

I donated what little I could because I love you, Bobbolink, Octafish, defend and protect and more people than I can list!

those of us on DU, it is much worse. That is because more and more of us are recognizing that, although his economic policies have failed to revive the economy, Obama continues to whistle the corporate tune, continues to keep the same DLCers on his staff. And so we have lost hope. Those of us on Social Security, we who are retired or jobless, those who are homeless aren't just suffering economically, we are tired and depressed and disillusioned.

I, for one, post nearly every day. I know what my educational background and personal experience are, and I know that I have a broader knowledge base and better understanding of much of what is going on than many on Obama's cabinet and certainly most in Congress. I think there are a lot of DUers like me.

And I am frustrated because I know how much we need change at the top of our political structure, and I see how little change we are getting.

I stay on DU out of fear for what will happen if we don't at least have a sane person in the White House. But I am so disillusioned with Obama that I don't even know whether I will bother to vote again until he is out of office.

As for giving to DU, I give once a year. I'm not working. My husband and I are on Social Security, and frankly, unless we have major changes in this country, I do not see that the powers that be will keep their promises to me and other Social Security recipients who paid into the system expecting to be able to live security in our senior years. I have no hope until Obama and his corrupt team leave office, and we can finally select a candidate for the presidency who speaks for and acts for the people of the United States and not some corporate masters who could care less about our country and us.

It's not you, Skinner, it's Obama. He double-crossed a lot of people.

Will withdrawl into their Bunkers.

Will withdrawl into their Bunkers.

That was, what, seven years ago? I'm lucky I don't live under a bridge, and in point of fact I actually did for a while.

Some of us simply aren't competent or lucky enough to be able to afford to donate. I'm sorry for that, just as I am grateful for the person who donated for me this time.

Someday, perhaps, I'll be able to return the favor.

Yes, the economy's worse.

from your posts that is all that matters to you.

sick shit.

who "ignored" is, but now I have an idea.

The economy in California is much worse than '09. I could afford a few Angels games last summer. Even treated my sister and son to birthday games. Haven't been to one game this year. Money is very tight out here.

but we're dying here.

has more than a little to do with it. I've been out of work for 16 mos. and am embarking on a career as an adult college student/poverty explorer. I love DU, but my resources have necessarily become a bit more precious to me right now.

Skinner, I wish you the best and continued success. If I can find two spare pennies to rub together, they're yours.

I'd like to donate, but just not right now. I'm planning to donate after the fund drive is over (that's when I might have some funds to deposit). It's not a sign of any disenchantment with DU.

made me, and those who think like I do, feel unwelcome here. There have been numerous unfair bannings while others who were banned for grievous acts were allowed to return. We've been swarmed by that faction, who attempt to beat you down if you don't think exactly like they do. I have have attempted numerous times to alert admin/mods on certain things only to be ignored. And, a lot of my friends are now gone, either TSed for speaking their mind or they've simply faded away from what DU has become.

I feel that some in this community don't want me here and I don't feel like the DU admin appreciates me or my donation. I'm just a dollar sign here. I didn't used to feel that way.

1) Hardcore Democratic partisans who are going to "have Obama's back" and see a lot (but certainly not all) of the criticism as destructive.
2) People who see Obama as part of the problem, not the solution. To them, he is someone to be opposed, period.
3) People who will often get upset about something (rightfully so most of the times) and rant about Obama this or that and have a generally low opinion of the administration's performance for long periods of time, but in the end they want him to succeed and support him;
4) the people who wish this was an awful lot less about Obama and more about issues

As a member of (1) who thinks the current President is flawed and sometimes foolish, I can recognize that no one should be driven out of DU for being a member of any of those broad groupings. At the same time, conflict between groups (1) and (2) is going to be inevitable. Because groups (1) and (2), while they have some ideological overlap, are partisan opponents just as much as Republicans and Democrats are partisan opponents.

Because, when someone says that Obama did to auto-workers what Reagan did to air traffic controllers (yes someone actually said that) we're beyond policy disagreements and into open partisan warfare.

rethugs; I'm convinced we've been infiltrated by trolls who have been smart enough not to get caught...yet.

I have said this before also and got slammed!

That's why I don't understand the shock and outrage when certain threads get unrecced right away, it could be agenda driven but it could easily be lurking Republican trolls too...why flip out about it?

I've read many posts and wondered about their true allegiance. It seems like the motive is to tear down anything good about Obama and the party.

At some point, if you are that unhappy with Obama and the current status of the Dem party, you are really better off (unless you just want to fight) going to another message board.

I'm definitely not 100% satisfied with the party or with Obama, but I'm willing to give the man credit where credit is due. He's a LOT better than Bush and the R's.

" At some point, if you are that unhappy with Obama and the current status of the Dem party, you are really better off (unless you just want to fight) going to another message board.

A) Damn right I'm willing to fight, and not because I "just want to".

B) Major components of the Democratic party are dysfunctional and/or in the control of the military industrial complex; if calling attention to that fact and fighting it causes someone to think I'm " unhappy with Obama and the current status of the Dem party" maybe the problem isn't me. As a matter of fact I am sure it isn't.

C) Please keep your definitions of "better off" to yourself.

Thank you. Please bear in mind, my argument is not with *you*, but with the STATEMENT!

At some point, if you are that unhappy with Obama and the current status of the Dem party, you are really better off (unless you just want to fight) going to another message board.

isn't really wise . . .

unless you also want to be invited to leave?

I sincerely retract the sentence about the leaving DU. I was wrong. I apologize.

... and "infiltrating lightly" initially after just creating a new userid here. I know who this user is, but I'll let him expose himself later, as I'm sure he will at some point. Everyone deserves a fair shot if they post responsibly. But yeah, I think that also "colors" the dialogue at times too.

to succeed, and they are not all coming from the right.

Could you explain that comment a bit further, please --

What evidence do you have of that?

there are "liberal" posters here who want DU to fail. Don't be naive.

Sid

that you feel is off the mark..and then get attacked and told that you're not giving Obama any credit for what he's done right! I want the party and Obama to succeed...but I don't think that refusing to tolerate any criticism of Obama's decisions will make that happen. I'm very happy about many, many things Obama has done...and I'm unhappy about a lot of things too. I'm not trying to tear him down...I want him to do better.

are you receiving disagreement? I see lots of complaints about not being allowed to express opinions but have never seen it happen.

And swarming people who dare to criticize Obama is making far more damages than any legitimate critic of this administration.Is it done on purpose or out of ignorance ?

Though their reasoning always seem to be fear-based to me --

I don't get it!

They also seem to pull a blanket of "this is a private website" over the issue, as well --

Evidently they think PRIVATE means "no criticism allowed"--?

The think about free speech is that it protects the sayer, not the listener!

It would be nice if we could individually tag them so it would be easier to track their history. So if I thought one might be a troll I could click and it would be a reminder at a later time if I run across that poster again.

Just sayin....

I think some people posed as Democrats, and made more than a few posts to prove it, to be in a position to help bring DU down. Can't prove it of course, but the tone changed drastically, and many posts seem like they could come from FR.

I often wondered which of the CONS who we often see on teevee are posting and helping to divide even more..

They have been onboard DU full force since before the election and all during the lead up to inauguration.

It's happened before and it'll happen again.

There are several:

1) Im poor.
2) Im unhappy with how I have been treated by some of the Admins - which has nothing to do with how the site is moderated (Skinner if you want more info on that feel free to msg me).

I think a robust dialogue from all sides of the democratic party is important - even if it gets messy.

The smart Pubbies are the hardest to deal with... any one of us can take on a TeaBagger... they don't last long here, thankfully.

the other side.

not sure how to deal with them but its a problem.

and when i referred to them in a post using the "t" word (the one you used in your post), my post were deleted. Apparently, it's against DU rules to call someone by the "t" word. Even if it's true. That's what i was told by admin when i asked why my post was deleted. When i asked if there was an appropriate DU-sanctioned term for unrec'ers, I got a one-word response: "people".

Get rid of the "t"s -- the serial unrec'ers. Or get rid of the unrec feature. It will help decrease the animosity on DU.

Not sure why that urge hit me when it did, but there ya go.

Some are so obvious, but they never seem to be TS'd. I only have two beefs with DU:

1) The unrec feature which is only benefiting trolls and malcontents
2) The discussion of the event that changed the course of world history being relegated instantly to a small invisible sub-forum that can never make the greatest page. If I could ask Skinner one question directly it would be about the treatment of that topic.

Other than those 2 things, I love DU, and I'll always contribute when I can.

I think there are lots of DUers who are capable of getting along just fine with each other, regardless of how they feel about the President and Democrats.

But the fact remains that many of us find ourselves on opposite sides of a new divide. And that is a huge change for this community.

Ugly, ugly, ugly stuff between Obama and Clinton people.

Maybe the difference is that there was an inevitable closure to all that. The winning side obviously stayed, and the losing side either fell in line like loyal Democrats or hit the bricks.

1) As you said, we knew there was an end to the primaries.

2) We still had John McCain (and Bush) to unite us.

The ironic thing is that I'd be a lot more inclined to offer criticism of the current administration if I understood myself to be amongst fellow travelers, i.e. people who want it to succeed but think it is making mistakes.

But, I deliberately refrain from doing so because I don't want to feed the dynamic/strength of those trying to tear the administration down, those who view themselves "at war" with the Obama admin (their word choice, I shit you not).

Maybe I'm unique. But probably not.

Having been called a freeper and a rethug many times by BOGers last summer when the health insurance debates were hot and heavy, I can tell DU posters and readers that debating skills of some/many are sorely lacking. As a Dem, I am not inclined to reach out to those who make ad hominem atttacks because their debating skills are weak.

I have been called many things during the HCR debates and questioned on whether or not I was really a dem. Told that I just didn't understand and was either naive or stupid. I have been involved in HCR since 1991 and saw the problems in this bill. When I tried to explain those problems that's when the name calling would begin. I am neither naive nor stupid when it comes to the Insurance Industry and HCR.

I'm the same way. Sometimes I feel defensive before I even open DU.

as Democrats and progressives. It's heartbreaking to see them abandoned.

The core set of values that used to define us now seems to divide us. Some want to hold strongly to them, others are comfortable with a more amorphous interpretation. Now we are divided into camps of conservadem, leftist, neo-liberal, centrists and so forth. The party is splitting, and DU is reflecting that split.

Core convictions dont change with the prevailing wind

but I fear that the dissent on DU may speak to what befalls us in November and that is something to fear.

As for DU, a lot of that is growing pains, I think.... Plus the economy. The cycles of dissent are disturbing, but we do still seem to be able to move past them...

I know that I still appreciate DU--as much as I did on Inauguration Day, 2001, when it literally was a sanity saver.

There may be hope yet.

or a set of ideas?

Some people who get elected as Democrats fight for few of the ideas their Democratic constituents want them to.

When there is a difference between the pols and the people, we should be allowed to state that without being locked for being ''divisive.''

or a set of ideas?

Some people who get elected as Democrats fight for few of the ideas their Democratic constituents want them to.

When there is a difference between the pols and the people, we should be allowed to state that without being locked for being ''divisive.''

I get very confused by mixed messages I'm getting from some. There is nothing that I disagree with which is put forth as "liberal" and "progressive" policy. I just am gobsmacked when pointing to the realities of what one is able to do to move policy forward, you get flamed and have much derision heaped on you. This is the divide as I see it. Having worked in policy development, there is a reality that you run up against which many people do not understand. It is the point at which your best intentions and highest hope run smack into reality. Personally, I have given up on trying to initiate constructive dialogue looking for common ground and I have attempted it several times only to watch the threads sink into flamefests. I abandoned them when this happened. Didn't feel good about doing so but getting nowhere is not worth the effort.

I fall in the camp of those who will not abandon the effort that got us this far because doing so will set us back even further. Reality is that the past 30 years saw much effort put into training a generation of "conservatives"/radicals. There is much to roll back and not everyone is on the page we are on. There will be no left wing savior arise magically from the mists if we abandon the hard work of pushing forward and it cannot be done all at once. We do what we can and keep the coals burning for another day.

I may be wrong but I think that just a little effort to show some common courtesy and respect for ideas not your own would go a long way toward finding common purpose. Very few issues out there are dichotomous. We do have a few, I agree. However, we live in a nation filled with many viewpoints. If we don't learn to live together on these forums, what can we hope for the nation?

Skinner, thanks for the heartfelt post. I'll try to be very brief.

It would be foolish to disagree with you on your main point. The community *is* divided. The party *is* divided. But I don't think that is the only reason you may be falling short on fundraising.

Many of us are just burnt out right now. We suffered through Bush. We fought the good fight for Obama. We felt that we would be rewarded for our effort. But it sometimes feels like it was all for nothing. Meanwhile, the system wants the same level of effort from us. But I, for one, just can't muster the passion right now.

I'll say this; despite whatever fracture the community is suffering through, DU remains one of the best places to hang out on the internet.

I was foreclosed on and no longer have a credit card and I know
others that are really struggling too on DU who used to be secure
and able to contribute and are not now with counting pennies.

I think Skinner our lord and master (I mean that in a good way)
should just extend the pledge drive

5. Those of us that when push come to shove - will always go into a voting booth and pull a D - Lever. These folks (myself included) are happy about some things, mad about others but know that even the most Conservative Democratic is better than ANY Conservative, Neo-Con, Libertarian, Christian Theocrat, etc. etc.

We may not get into any of the dog fights at DU. We probably sit on our hands more often than not. But we are always open to reading other peoples' pov's because it enhances our ability to debate people In Real Life who do not fall in ANY of those four groups - read - something to the right of Ben Nelson. We are active in political campaigns at the local level, and give money nationally to candidates. We are the put your money and time where your liberal/progressive thoughts are.


Key Point - I've been registered here for a few years and have less thank 2K posts. But I love to read. If I've not given yet (and intend to do so tomorrow when doing my bills) it's because . . . . I'm learning at DU about candidates outside of NJ that need help - and I've sent them $500 this week. From MN, to SC, to CA, to TX . . .

You summed up my presence on DU rather nicely!

I am here to check what is important in politics on a day to day bases. The reason I don't post much is because really, i don't have the temperament to get into fights with anyone. I have already enough to deal with both at work and also being too busy with school.

I can see why people would be dissatisfied with DU lately. The arguments can get too intense sometimes and some people have no restraints when it comes to being plain nasty. It might be perhaps an indication that they care too much about the issues but seriously, who needs all that. On the other hand, there are very few people here that even when an argument is not very 'progressive' in a way, they take the time to try to get to an understanding of the issue in a way that everyone benefits from the discussion. That is now rare. The DU of a few election cycles ago was a lot of fun.

I too donate to candidates DIRECTLY that exhibit true progresive values. I am very proud of my congressman (Grayson) and tend to donate to those showing similar philosophy. There are not very many unfortunately.

BTW... I won't vote for Meeks or Greene for the Senate FL Primary. My vote will go to Ferre. So... time to run outta here folks...

At least I don't consider myself to fall into any of those groups, except maybe #4, and I am not sure very many fall into #1 or #2 although that may be how the two groups characterize each other as either blind partisans or rabid attack dogs.

I think there is a huge current of agreement between group #1 and #2, that both want to move the country "to the left", but the 2nd group is more disappointed in Obama who has seemingly been fighting against the left, as a DLCer, instead of fighting for the left or fighting alongside the left. I understand their frustration, even though I often fight with them on DU.

My concern is about their tactics. Going back to #4, I would like to see them/us promote our issues more than we attack people like Obama or even teabaggers for opposing our issues. If we had threads here like "Obama should support X" or "Obama should oppose Y" which then explained the virtues of X or the foibles of Y, then those would be useful threads. Instead we seem to get threads more like "Obama is a horrible President for not supporting X" or "Obama is a corporate tool for not opposing Y" and then the thrice-daily "laundry list of disgust" that has been so common here. It goes like "I had HAD IT with Obama, first he didn't fight for X, then he didn't fight against Y, and then he said Z, ..., and now he is doing (or not doing) ABC, so I fart in his general direction and it is going to be all his fault when Democrats lose in 2010".

I just don't see how it moves the country to the left by having a site where people go to complain and read about how bad the Democratic Party is and how foolish it is to ever support them. Especially this close to an election. If Democrats lose in 2010, the media will promote the message that "the voters have rejected Obama and the Democrats for being too liberal".

at every occasion, they really can't be said to share a partisan, political agenda with the 80-90% of Democrats who support the President.

Therein lies the problem. I have been posting all summer about the situation in the Gulf. People accuse me and the others who post of WANTING the disaster to be worse than it is to advance some Obama-hating agenda. That is how ridiculous it has become!

Same thing happened to those critical of the healthcare outcome. Or the progress of the war. Or the disregard for teachers and unions. These issues have become flashpoints for many. The issues are separate from the personalities. Yet anyone who offers any critique of policy decisions is trashed here at DU.

I remember the day when reading a thread at DU meant becoming informed. People posting multiple links to articles and research. Others following up on every thread. Massive amounts of information to mull over and discuss. Rarely just jumping in simply to be snarky (Nader threads perhaps being the one exception).

No one simply unreccing threads for the hell of it and then posting to brag about it like it was some great addition to the discourse. I have been on DU awhile. I used to post daily. I rarely do anymore. I still read threads though. I see the difference. It is not all related to not having Bush to kick around anymore. There is a new viciousness here that makes me feel unwelcome. No longer part of a tight community as I once felt.

In fact, I feel marginalized and unwanted. And to the person/s who plans to post after this to point me the way to the door, don't bother. I probably was here way before you and will maybe be here way after you are a distant memory.

And I will not shut up and go quietly into that good night.

People who think everyone falls neatly into one of those groups.

I'm with group #4. I read here everyday.

Thanks for the reminder to contribute.

an argument that challenges them to change their mind. We usually don't like it when our dearly held ideas are shown to be false.

If someone attacks another DUer ad hominem, that attack should just be ignored.

If more people on DU got into the habit of acknowledging to critics when we are wrong and the critics are right, we would all learn a lot more. There would be fewer people complaining about hurt feelings.

I find that more than half the time when someone thinks they disagree with me, they don't. Very often, the problem is that I just haven't said what I was trying to say very clearly.

When we feel hurt, we need to take responsibility for our own conduct that causes us to feel hurt. We are never faultless.

n.t.

This site has always had in its rules to "be generally supportive of democrats". What I see around here is critical OP's outnumbering supportive ones, probably on the order of 3:2, maybe 2:1. Most of these threads either start or degenerate into Dems/Obama = Scoundrels. That's not generally supportive.

Mix in the PUMAs and freeper trolls with the crusaders and you have nice toxic soup.

And what exactly is everyone going to discuss? I know that some would like to talk about Republicans all day long, but since almost all agree about Republicans it's really not something that people are going to discuss and debate.

I will say this for the 372 time. The primary problem is not debates. People tend to want to bitch and moan when something they feel strongly about happens. That is just humanity. It can't be stopped. And this discussion is going to continue. I don't think we are at the apex.

I was a member way back when. Didn't post much but read here all the time and felt a real connection. Huge work loads (I had a job way back) and a new marriage began to take up more of my time and I drifted away. Recent years have been taken up with matters of survival as our lives crashed with the economy and my husband battled cancer.

Last July, I came back here still joyful over Obama's election even though our life was still disastrous. I wanted to be here with a community I once felt close to as we began the HCR debate which had been one of the causes of my life. I fully expected we would see a major victory in this area and wanted to be here with people who would share my joy at this while we laughed in the faces of Republican obstructionists. Unable to remember my old screen name or password, I chose the username, "laughingliberal," believing most of my time here would be spent laughing at the anguish of the right wing as we kicked serious butt and put this country back in the hands of the people.

I became disillusioned as I watched the administration and the Senate move to the right and negotiate away most of the decent progressive ideas over HCR and other issues. I remember being disappointed over the stimulus package earlier but realized at that time we did not have 60 votes in the Senate. I knew I was not happy with a lot of President Obama's appointments but I was just naive enough to still be buying into that 'team of rivals' message. Of course, I was still naive enough to believe Clinton moved to the right only because he had to in order to get things accomplished after we lost the House and Senate. (You must understand, my work weeks as an RN in those days was typically 60+ hours so I wasn't able to dig very deep). I was shocked that we seemed to be in no better shape after Al Franken's win gave us our 60th vote in the Senate. I was appalled to watch the administration's efforts at party discipline all going in the direction of beating on the progressives to compromise and not in the direction of pushing the Blue Dogs to compromise.

In short, I find I am often fighting almost as much to achieve the goals I have had for our country now as I was under *. I actively look for issues on which to support the President because I really would like to support him and I still like him, personally, very much. This is painful. On the big ticket items, I have been very disappointed not to see more fight for the ideals I hold dear from a President of my party. Too often, I've seen him actively oppose policies based on those ideals.

The experience at DU, this time, has not been what I thought it would be. I find some of the policies I see people advocate for here shocking. I never thought I would be blasted on a Democratic website for opposing policies of Reagan or the Heritage foundation or the CATO institute. But I have been. I have been shocked and saddened to find an amazing lack of compassion for the poor and the workers. I am shocked to find a Democratic web site with many posters able to disparage the rights of our LGBT brothers and sisters and women. I am an old style liberal who grew up the daughter of civil rights activists and my life and the lives of my entire family were on the line from the time I was 12. I know the history of the labor wars and how many died for the rights of workers in this country. I watch many in the Democratic party bargain away gains for which people died for political expediency and I watch people here defend it endlessly and cheer them on. I watch the party I considered my home for my entire life and realize, with some notable exceptions, it no longer seems to stand for the ideals I hold dear. I find myself wondering what is this place where I see bashing of the poor, women, the sick, the disabled, those who have fallen on hard times, union workers, teachers, LGBT persons, senior citizens, baby boomers, and on and on.

I am not of group #2 but I find it does not matter. I am accused of being no matter how much I post on policy and why I do or do not support a certain policy. The opposition to what I have to say (and I am someone who studies very seriously and digs out as much information as I can to both determine what I think is going on and support my positions)is mean spirited and insulting. I refrain from the name calling and insults almost always but I am not answered in kind. The snark, the insults, the name calling, the passive aggressive call outs are all taking a toll on me. And for what? For believing in the same principles I have believed in for all these decades, for believing in the same principles I have worked to see in our party platform at party caucuses and conventions my whole life? I read rules that say it is not allowed to call people 'cheerleaders,' or 'apologists,' but find posts calling those of us on the left, 'purists,' 'haters,' 'leftbaggers,' remain, despite alerts, many times. People are able to accuse the poor and hungry and unemployed among us who ask for more work towards jobs and social programs of 'wanting a pony.' It is upside down world to me.

When I was a member years ago, I was a monthly donor. In fact, that continued for some years after I was no longer able to spend time here. I had standing contributions here and several other liberal websites. As our financial life fell apart, I had to drop them. The first donor drive after my return I posted about how sad I was I did not have any money to give. Someone donated in my name and I was humbled and grateful that someone did that for me. Once you become poor in this society, you become invisible to most people. In subsequent donor drives, we had a little work in the shop and I was able to make a meager donations, wishing it could be more. This time I have looked at our how tight our money is and know we are on the last job in the shop and don't know if any more will come in. I thought I could probably scrape another of my embarrassingly meager donations but I had to ask myself if I wanted to ask my family (me, my husband, our little dog) to sacrifice for a place that allows me to be treated so badly for trying to stand up for traditional Democratic values and the downtrodden and that I'm not sure still values my opinion or my ideals. Every day the donor board is up there I think about it. And I remain conflicted.

fighting cancer, loss of income etc. I truly hope he is better but understand why the HC debate was so important to you.

You are one of my favorite posters here and that is an incredibly honest and moving post. I hope many people read it because I think you speak for an awful lot people here.

I notice that many DUers I used to read, to look for, are gone and it makes me sad.

I'm glad you are still here ...

I first came here in 2004 and absolutely loved the spirit, humor and dedication and generosity of the people here. But it has changed, maybe because so many have left and have been replaced by a different kind of democrat.

First, regarding my husband's cancer, we did manage to keep up the COBRA premiums until he was through the surgery and recommended treatments. His doctor was of the opinion that his chances for return of disease were very minute. We no longer have insurance and are not able to have his followup screenings but I have every reason to hope that particular concern over his health is resolved.

I have always been so impressed with your posts. Your grasp of the issues and knowledge of the history of many of the problems we face today is impressive. I notice you are always able to state your position clearly and with the facts to back them up. I see you maintain your calm and matter of fact demeanor even under attack from people of opposing viewpoints. You are one of my favorite posters here, also, and, I think, a true asset to this community.

I, too, miss seeing many of our former members who no longer seem to be around but am very glad you still are.

and that your husband was treated and hopefully, cured. It is a disgrace though, that he cannot get screenings. What more can be said about the dismal state of our HC system?

Thank you for your kind remarks. It is a difficult period for everyone, I just happen to think that facing facts is the best way to change things while I understand the fears some have that by doing so we might be playing into the hands of Republicans. The differences, in most cases, are mostly to do with strategy. Just my opinion though, I am sure others would disagree

what our core values used to be.

I feel exactly as you do.

...I love the DU and wish I could give more.

THE SCOTTIE <-------My Sticky...bet no one guessed, right?

I would love to see an Elections 2010 discussion group added. It would be friendlier
and hopefully inspiring (and is much needed).

And I think DU is as great as it ever was, quite frankly. For awhile I thought DU was turning into an Obama sycophants only zone and it was not looking good, even some mods at the time seemed to be going that way in their moderation. But it changed back to the way it was and now its once again a free and open place for discussion about Obama, both pro and con. If it was up to me I wouldn't change a thing.

But if people are upset, then maybe they can have General Discussion - Politics be the place for a mostly pro-Obama slant, and the plain General Discussion forum be the place for the mostly critical of Obama slant. I don't know, maybe it is a bad idea, but its an idea. If this worked the mods would make it so each forum was moderated to be one thing or the other and then people could have a place they feel secure and pleased to be there, for example, the pro-Obama folks would not feel bad about having to see all those negative Obama articles posted in their forum and they could have a positive forum for Obama. And the folks who are not happy with Obama would not have to see the empty cheer leading threads and the posts such as "Look at this weeks Obama family photos!" that we have now.

Anyway, hope you guys get your donations to where you want them and I think its mostly the bad economy that is at fault, not that people are unhappy about DU. (though there probably is a bit of that as well)

But we are concerned about the possible unintended consequences. I think our biggest concern is that if we create two mutually-exclusive forums for two groups, then we are forcing people to declare a side, endorsing this idea that we are enemies, and encouraging polarization.

But many of us actually are polarized.

But like I said, I'm not sure if there is such a problem in the first place, or if its as serious a chasm as it might seem. To me, DU seems to be as good as it has been in the past.

During **'s reign of terror, it was very refreshing to come here and know that we didn't have to waste time with right wing talking points. I can see that many would also like to freely discuss ideas, topics, issues without wasting time going over the same arguments again and again and again.


This could be somewhat like the gungeon or 911 forums but on a larger scale.

Not an ideal solution, but those who want to discuss Obama's policy without continual rancor could have a space, and those who want to critique the president without being called names could also have a space.

GD-Pro-Obama

GD-New Solutions


or some such...

because THAT is not what I came to DU for! And I HAVE seen it change, even if some here don't see it that way! I've been here for a while and I can't say I've felt this way before!

JMHO!!

We certainly would not force anyone to pick a side. But the existence of two safe-haven forums might lead people (who otherwise might not) to pick a side.

And will just reinforced what's bad instead of diffusing it. We already have an instance of that on this board, and it has done anything but help.

A healthy and open debate moves people to rethink positions, research their various assertions and may give pause to those who have opposing views.

people to pick a side."?

make sure you keep an open one for possible discussion of issues. I think most of the problem is the economy.

Even worse than the "Nuclear Block" of a few years ago. The BOG redux.

Trolls were putting all the gay posters, etc., on their list, so they wouldn't get called on their crap. The trolls at places like FR were actually coordinating it.

Create a whole second DU. You have the best user interface. Clone it. Apply a catchy name, and let it go. One would be Pro Obama and one would be Pro Left Wing. (Not implying ANYTHING by that grouping).

While I think it's a great idea, I don't think it's fair to ask these three men to run both.

That's news to me.

"(Not implying ANYTHING by that grouping)."

Ignore the point and go for the attack. How grownup of you.

Why do we have problems here in River City? You can't give it a fucking rest even for a moment. Shame on you.

I thought the qualifier you provided was insufficient for your suggestion. What in the world would be the point in dividing between the two views? I don't like the idea of dividing AT ALL. And, I certainly don't harbor ANY animosity toward you personally; not for your views or your responses. I'm just responding to the notion of the divide you suggest. I'm not for it. How that 'proves your point', I can't even begin to imagine.

has called liberals "retards" and "the professional left" that speaks loads. #2: considering that the administration has not lead on DADT and Obama underscored his support that marriage was man+woman right after Prop 8 was rejected. #3: considering that the administration is union-busting and dismantling public education. #4: considering the administration is expanding "free trade" and not attacking NAFTA (contrary to campaign promises).

Yes, it's hard to support the administration the way you do and then go on and on about how "left" you are.

. . . but we all see these issues (and measure the administration) through our own bias. Personally, I'm not anxious to align myself with or identify myself with any group other than Democrats and Americans. I'll leave it to others to construct their little ideological boxes - I'll construct my own, thank you. If pressed, I'd have to admit that most of my views are to the left of the considered political spectrum. Support for this administration and this President is based on the notion of our party as an organizing base to (hopefully) advance our initiatives and ideas into action or law. That's just not going to be the prefect ideological match with our own ambitions as we might like because we are not operating in some political vacuum.

I bring my 'liberalism' to the table and I work to have my ideals accepted by enough of a majority of legislators and the WH to advance them in our political system. That's why I strongly support this Democratic president. It's been a hard slog to get this far and I care enough about the issues I represent to keep pushing, given the elevation in our political system that our election of Barack Obama has allowed us, so far. I don't shed my own values as I support and defend the ground we've captured (the election and terms of our majority and Democratic president), despite the insistence of folks that I abandon support for my political vehicle (our party and our president).

My sentiments exactly.

In fact, he's just saying that he recognizes two distinct groups here.

My focus is on GD, and I don't post hardly at all in any other areas, except by accident. I follow DU via the Latest Posts page, so I do get pulled into other forums than GD from time to time, but that's not the norm for me at all.

I've visited the Barack Obama Group, and have posted there maybe twice, but GD is where I live on DU.

Frankly, I don't see much utility in one-sided areas. There's little discussion going on in them, and little controversy. It is the controversy and discussion that make a forum great. When it gets down to personal attacks, that's a different matter, though. Such attacks, whether on another poster or on a Democratic politician, are counter-productive, and destroy discussions.

for the reasons you stated.

Bad idea. My .02

be president forever? What will happen if personality over principle is the choice you make?

To me it's a no-brainer, this place is called Democratic Underground and democratic principles should top any individual POL.

I think you need to look with-in and decide who you really are politically. I pray you will stand for democratic principles above all else.

I wish you and this very special board well.

True believers, ideology only matters versus the arguments that "Any D is better than any R, look at cloture, SCOTUS, speakership", etc.

Exactly the same arguments on both left and right. There were probably exactly the same percentage of conservatives who *HATED* president Bush (sorry, I find *any* diminution of names childish, hang the bastard, but idiocy of not calling people by their titles and parties by their chosen names is just stupid, IMHO). The arguments of pragmatism, getting and holding power even if it must be done with the aid of 'RINOs' or, in our case 'DINO's being at odds with those who are damn sick of holding their noses and voting and have decided that the party needs a wake up call even if it means losing the White House or congress.

Personally, I think those tensions derive from our two party system. If the only alternative to a DINO is a Republican- then, as much as I want to slap the crap out of someone who defends the President not ending DADT *NOW*, as disgusting as I found Gibb's tirade, and as unpleasant as the reality that much of the administration consists of the same Wall Street crooks and thieves that got us into the current mess, they have a point. The conservatives face the same conundrum, and in many ways are even more divided, fiscal VS social, Christian VS Darwinian, 'REalpolitik' VS Islamophobic.

No answers, just thanks for your hard work. Sonation forthcoming next payday.

if you remembered to capitalize the word "President."

Thanks!

approach a problem, through advocating for this presidency v. through advocating for social justice.

That isn't promoting polarization, really. That's letting people approach and discuss problems in the way that is more comfortable for them.

Blind advocacy for this presidency can easily morph into a cult of personality. Then what?

I have many issues here. I don't feel that I'm allowed to voice them, though.

I have asked one question REPEATEDLY...if we ridiculed the Republicans for walking in lock-step with Bush, how is it different if we're expected to support Obama unequivocably. I've never received an answer.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

I agree. Sometimes I want to advocate for social justice and discuss things with the left DUers without having whatever I say become a referendum on Obama, who I personally don't find very important one way or the other.

We would like to support our Party and our President, but we see what a mess is being made. How do we change things for the better?

I spoke to an absolute cynic last night who thinks that there is nothing anyone can ever do.

I agree and disagree. Not since the 17th century has the wealthy oligarchy had so much control over the lives of us Americans.

But then, I think about my American ancestors who fought in the War of 1812, who struggled against slavery when it was the norm, who joined the German revolution for democracy in 1848, who came here and fought in the Civil War on the Union side, who joined the Populist movement during the Gilded Age and who, during my lifetime, sided for Civil Rights for all and equality and who now support gay marriage.

We have changed things. We can change things, even when the oligarchy opposes us.

When I look back on my personal activist ancestry, I am not surprised that I sometimes disagree with people on DU, but I am comforted by the fact that in every struggle in the past, my ancestors have been on the side of moral strength, of love and compassion for mankind and for human progress, and I recognize that fighting for those values is my genetic destiny, no matter what.

I'm on DU because even when everyone disagrees with me, I know that my talent and therefore my duty is to make a difference through my thought, my voice, my writing in the struggle for progress.

As long as DU exists, I will be a member, however, limited my ability to contribute may be, and I will play my part.

Skinner, what is the DU budget? Where does the money go?

When my children were small, we really did not have enough to live on. I found that if when I did not have money for the basic necessities, what I needed to do was to keep very strict records of my expenditures and look around because what I really needed or something that would do as well was virtually always there if I just looked hard enough.

Just addressing this one specific idea and not the overall problem --

This is a view to escapeism, rather than encouraging people to actually look at

issues and wade thru debate.

Are Democrats so fragile these days that we can no longer debate one another?

Unfortunately, this isn't at all about the election of a Democratic president which

might have brought complacency about "fighting the right wing" --

Rather, it's about a president/administration, itself, which has been from the first

moments moving government further to the right --

and it is THAT which is causing, actually, much needed debate within the DU community.


Unfortunately, everyone has to decide whether they are also going to fight the

infiltration of the Democratic Party by the right wing/corporates/DLC -- or whether

they are going to ignore it because it's "our guy" doing it!

Adorable -- !!

I used to be a diehard progressive Democrat (for about 18 years) but the rightward shift of the party--culminating in not only its failure to fight the ongoing Bush Doctrine but its adoption of many aspects of the Bush Doctrine--has resulted in my becoming a leftist independent. There are many wonderful progressives who identify with the Democratic Party and I want to support them and be a part of their lives. There are Democratic politicians that I support--particularly local ones in my Red area. But I have to admit that the Right-Wing faction on DU has pushed me further away from the Democratic Party.

I do believe that there are some of them who really share some progressive values. But I also think that many of them don't. I think that there are many on the Party's right who are now pro-war, who are anti-union, who are anti-immigrant, and who are (although subtle because they know they'll get kicked off) are anti-LGBT. So I don't think that its necessarily true that we all agree on what we want we just see different ways of getting there. I think there is a difference in platform now. I think it was inevitable: the Democrats became a catch-all for a popular front against Bush. United against and united for are very different concepts.

I think the idea of a left DU and a right DU as very interesting and potentially productive. People in the middle could post in both forums as long as they were respectful. Those of us in either forum could organize amongst ourselves. Sometimes when I post things, I'm not talking to the right-wing Democrats. I already know what they think. I want to know what the left-wing Democrats think.

I personally think it would be more productive.

Sorry about not being able to donate.

The "Underground" forum, by invite only. That was a disaster, IIRC.

on edit:
Maybe I should say the "first" time, haven't been around much.

It's called GD and GDP. I don't think you need any more polarization. Actually, I would combine both forums into one. It would force a certain civility I hope that isn't present right now if you step into the wrong forum with an opinion not accepted within that forum.

The vast majority of us vote exclusivly Democratic? Doesn't that make most of us Partisans?

There is a group like that, and it hasn't helped at all. As I said in a thread last week: MANY of us who fought in the primaries are fine with each other now. Some, like Creekdog, have become personal friends of mine. But, there are a small but vocal band who rail at any body who crosses a line they have, including many Obama Primary Warriors, who have let the Primary battles go. It has been rather interesting to see this all happen.

There are "small but vocal bands" on both sides who rail at anyone who crosses a line they have.

The poster was talking about THIS group, no other group. This is what is happening, Skinner, and you just did it yourself. No one will discuss certain issues, just finger point. I am gay and a woman, you bet I won't put up with homophobic or sexist shit, and I never will. EVER. THAT isn't the same thing at all. There are Obama "Fans" on here, and posters who are Right Wingers who attack Obama. I do not consider criticism of Obama from Left posters as "attacks," because they want to make things better. And, those two groups do nothing but attack, they can't post an OP asking, as I did, what's the best approach to "moving on" from 9/11. EVER. And, being dismissive of this truth does upset and anger posters who don't mind tussling and debating, but who are sick of the swarms and personal attacks.

There are two extreme sides, but they are NOT Left and DLC/Moderate, and that's' what the problem is: they are being presented as such. The Left isn't the problem on here, and the Moderates aren't the problem. Even many of the Conservadems aren't. That's why I think the "safe haven" suggestion is not only misguided, but wouldn't help anyway.

has been ruined by the people who are partisan supporters of a Democratic President, you are probably equally part of the problem.

Otherwise, just call it Democrats.com. Wait, there's already one of those.

that was my understanding in the beginning, and I've struggled to be tolerant of some of the non-progressive crap that gets slung around here so pompously. But I'm a DEMOCRAT, when I criticize Obama I'm doing it to make the party better, not to ruin it. And of course my vote goes to the Ds until something more effective comes along.

websites that cater to the Green/Nader viewpoint that the Democratic party is the problem, not a potential vehicle for solutions. And yet we have folks here who view the current president as the enemy.
It's a tension that is at some level ultimately unresolveable.

It says its for people who support DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES not "only the left wing of the democrats are allowed". The bigotry on this site for anyone who isn't left enough is something that reminds me of how the far right behaves with those they consider too moderate.
IMO, this site should be welcoming to ALL democrats..socialists, liberal, progressive, blue dog, centrist etc. To try to limit it to one wing of the party is agaisnt the BIG TENT philosophy of this party.

I'm taking about the "bigoty" displayed by certain centrists here who don't understand that while we welcome all (big tent) we have a slant to the left, unlike, say Democrats. com. Lately the lefties are getting crowded out by the groups you mention, and while I accept it, it's not, as Skinner says, the "OLD DU"--which was very left of center. I'd like my old DU back, yes, but if I have to accommodate others, so be it. I'm a liberal. I won't complain and ask to have you thrown off for your outlandish ideas, as you would do to us.

The problem with "Democratic Underground" is that it used to work so well earlier when it described both our feelings of a need for more democracy, and a party out of power that was dissenting against a problematic Republican Party in charge that was trying to push it in to the ground. It allowed for a lot of unity there.

Now the name implies:
1) Democratic - as in big D Democratic Party identity (whether they are doing the right thing or no)
2) democratic - as in small d democratic principles that I think most of us want, but some of us don't necessarily apply to the Democratic Party.
3) Underground - implies a group that's working against those in power who are the problem... This kind of now fights with definition 1.

"Progressive Underground" wouldn't confuse item #1 as the operative part of the definition, though it wouldn't necessarily exclude Democrats that have progressive leanings (and what many would call traditional Democratic Party values).

Now by switching that, you are declaring more allegiance to those with progressive values as opposed to those for the Democratic Party. That's also where it gets tricky, as it is easy to see who's speaking for or against the Democratic Party, but what makes one individual speaking more progressively than another? That's trickier to measure. So I'm not completely sold on this name change either.

But I do think some thought here about any changes are made should be thinking about the name of the board, and how it can be changed so that it doesn't have an inherent confused message with the name, but is more of a unifying force to push for change. And perhaps make it more like what Tom Hartmann says isn't a circular firing squad, but a wind of pushing for change behind Obama and other party members' back who we might at times disagree with.

And perhaps the board should entertain more those that want other parties, but need to make sure they can justify those positions from progressive viewpoints, and hopefully not denigrating Democrats without being specific about what issues they feel that these other parties are more progressive/better for us than the Democratic Party entity is.

So this name confusion is one problem. I think two other problems facing DU now are the economy and how it affects all of us financially. As another person that's out of work, I still have routine periodic donations I contribute, small as they may be, but I really can ill afford to donate any more at this time, where if I were working, I'd feel a lot more comfortable to throw in some more to help with a goal like this, especially if I felt some unity towards a purpose that the board was seeking that we all felt unified to accomplish.

I think one other big problem is that this poor economy and people being out of work not only affects people financially, but also affects how they use their time. I think I can speak for myself and many here that simply have to focus more on job hunting and other life essentials now than working on separate activist projects in terms of priority. This is due to:

1) needing to get employment, address other financial issues that need various types of attention, which takes priority over most everything else.
2) not having time to really go deeply in to looking at an issue that needs attention and providing useful help to the DU community and other progressives in helping with it.
3) with the Dems in power, it is really hard to see which areas need deep activist work, that aren't going to have us butt heads against each other. The old ones like Valerie Plame, etc. that gives us unity of purpose and can have us scour the net for pieces of info, aren't clear any more. When you couple that with 2, it makes it really impossible for a lot of investigative work and corresponding rallying of activist groups harder.
4) there are so many other broader issues now, the banksters, the war, gulf oil spill, climate change, the economy, etc. that are all hitting us at once, it is hard to know where to focus our energy on too, even if we didn't have issue 3 of not being necessarily unified on which issues to go after too. By having so many, and so few of us able to do work now on activism, a lot of issues don't get near enough attention.

I think Skinner that you should also look at how both FSTV and LINK-TV are struggling heavily with their fund-raising as well (I hope neither of these two go under either) and I think have some of the similar variables that DU is facing now in terms of fund raising. This is more of a global problem for non-profits and those working "against the machine" now...

I think the board needs to decide whether to emphasize that it is a part of the Democratic Party, and that being progressive is secondary, or that it is a gathering point for progressives, and being a member of the Democratic Party is secondary. To try and heavily emphasize both is pushing us in to conflict. Personally I'd prefer the latter, and think that is the area which is more needed that "official" sites associated with the Democratic Party don't offer, and hoping that is where DU goes to. Hopefully that doesn't put you too much in the "professional left" category that has some in the Democratic Party establishment push us aside more. I really hope that the party at some point embraces more progressives, and would like to think that DU could help at some point achieve that goal as a voice of progressives.

this administration's move to the right, then it is a problem.

...by those who, just a few short years ago, would have been raging against a given policy/stance carried out under/taken by Bush, but who are perfectly OK with same policy/stance because now it's Obama doing it.

I could have articulated that more eloquently, but I'm sure you know what I mean. And I'm sure you'll disagree with it, but what the hell -- it has to be said.

They're a relatively small group, quite vocal and probably big $$$$ donors.