Part Of The Problem For The Left, Professional Or Not... Do You Trust THIS ???

[WillyT]

BP May Not Need to Finish Drilling Relief Well, Allen Says
By Katarzyna Klimasinska and Jim Polson - Aug 12, 2010 2:07 PM PT

<snip>

BP Plc may not finish drilling a relief well to its Macondo well in the Gulf of Mexico, National Incident Commander Thad Allen said during a conference call today.

The relief well, which for months has been touted by the U.S. government as the ultimate solution to stopping the flow from Macondo -- a process known as “killing” the well -- may not be needed after all, Allen said.

BP has started a pressure test that may show that the Macondo oil well was killed adequately when it was plugged with mud and cement with a “static kill” last week, making the relief well unnecessary, Allen said.

The Macondo well spewed an estimated 4.9 million barrels of crude after an April 20 explosion aboard the Deepwater Horizon drilling rig.

The pressure test, which will be completed later today, will indicate whether cement entered the annulus, the space between the casing pipe and the wellbore. If so, finishing the relief well and pumping mud and cement from the bottom may not be needed, Allen said.

“I wouldn’t rule out anything at this point,” Allen said. “We think it’s a low probability that we would not finish the relief well.”

Allen will make the decision tonight or tomorrow morning, he said.

<snip>

Link: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-12/bp-may-not-need-to-finish-drilling-relief-well-allen-says.html

It's one thing to not trust BP about ANYTHING, but now... I don't trust Allan, the Coast Guard, or the Administration.

And ya know what?

They've earned that mistrust.

:shrug:

[havocmom]

1. Since lives, livelihoods, the environment are not as important to BP as $$ is...

no, I do not trust this. They do not want to spend one penny more than they are forced to.

They killed workers, they are killing clean up workers, they just don't care about ANYTHING but money. And I truly believe they have bought a Coast Guard Admiral.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I'll ask another question, because this is a problem with the professional left

and... right....

A very low understanding of science.

If the well has been capped, and it is no longer flowing... why do you need a second relief well that MIGHT just get the flow going again?

As to trust the government, that is a problem of legitimacy we are getting no matter what political side.

[WillyT]

4. Good Point, But...

Capped is different from KILLED, no ???

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. No, capped is killed

it is no longer flowing.

The second well was in case the first one missed it's target. The Ixtoc took five attempts.

[WillyT]

7. Ok... But I Thought They Wanted The Kill It From Below As Well...

What happened?

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. The cement took

that is what happened.

And if that is the case, you really do not want to do anything more to it... or you might break what you already fixed.

[WillyT]

9. Can We Get Non BP, Non Coast Guard, Non NOAA, Non Administration, Verification Of That ???

Maybe some free ranging, anonymous Universities ???

You see the problem, no?

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. So tell me what reason would the USCG have to lie to you?

Serious question here. If you said BP sure... but explain what is there for NOAA to win?

If you do not trust them on this... that is quite honestly your problem. What else you don't trust them on?

Oh and nobody else has the equipment to send that deep anyway, that is independent anyway.

To use an ancient saying there are times you have to take a leap of faith. But your comments expose a serious problem in the loss of legitimacy of the Federal Government. If this becomes wide spread, we are in for a duzzy of political unrest.

[Poboy]

12. If you do not trust them on this... that is quite honestly your problem.

WTF?

Okey dokey,

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. You have an issue with this

there is an undergrowth trend of conspiracy thinking in the US going back a long time... well before 9.11, or for that matter JFK. This is part of that... pattern.

And if this ever becomes very wide spread, it will be a duzzy.

[Curmudgeoness]

16. For me, the reason I can see the USCG lying is because

they have been working closely with BP to keep the media away, hide facts, intimidate scientists, and generally lie to us already.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. But if this is not capped

you will find out pretty soon.

Like we will continue to have oil flowing into beaches.

So apart of the oil still in the ocean on the water column mind you... if we keep getting oil into the beaches next year, then you can safely say they lied to you.

Oh and then there is satellite imagery. You can BUY sat Images from the French you know. You could from NASA but we know they will scrub them.

[WillyT]

19. Here Ya Go: 'USF Says Government Tried To Squelch Their Oil Plume Findings' - StPeteTimes

USF says government tried to squelch their oil plume findings
By Craig Pittman, Times Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 10, 2010

<snip>

A month after the Deepwater Horizon disaster began, scientists from the University of South Florida made a startling announcement. They had found signs that the oil spewing from the well had formed a 6-mile-wide plume snaking along in the deepest recesses of the gulf.

The reaction that USF announcement received from the Coast Guard and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the federal agencies that sponsored their research:

Shut up.

"I got lambasted by the Coast Guard and NOAA when we said there was undersea oil," USF marine sciences dean William Hogarth said. Some officials even told him to retract USF's public announcement, he said, comparing it to being "beat up" by federal officials.

The USF scientists weren't alone. Vernon Asper, an oceanographer at the University of Southern Mississippi, was part of a similar effort that met with a similar reaction. "We expected that NOAA would be pleased because we found something very, very interesting," Asper said. "NOAA instead responded by trying to discredit us. It was just a shock to us."

NOAA Administrator Jane Lubchenco, in comments she made to reporters in May, expressed strong skepticism about the existence of undersea oil plumes — as did BP's then-CEO, Tony Hayward.

"She basically called us inept idiots," Asper said. "We took that very personally."

Lubchenco confirmed Monday that her agency told USF and other academic institutions involved in the study of undersea plumes that they should hold off talking so openly about it. "What we asked for, was for people to stop speculating before they had a chance to analyze what they were finding," Lubchenco said. "We think that's in everybody's interest. … We just wanted to try to make sure that we knew something before we speculated about it."

"We had solid evidence, rock solid," Asper said. "We weren't speculating." If he had to do it over again, he said, he'd do it all exactly the same way, despite Lubchenco's ire.

Coast Guard officials did not respond to a request for comment on Hogarth's accusation.

The discovery of multiple undersea plumes of oil droplets was eventually verified by one of NOAA's own research vessels. And last month USF scientists announced they at last could match the oil droplets in the undersea plumes to the millions of barrels of oil that gushed from the collapsed well until it was capped July 15.

"What we have learned completely changes the idea of what an oil spill is," USF scientist David Hollander said then. "It has gone from a two-dimensional disaster to a three-dimensional catastrophe."

Now Lubchenco is not only convinced the undersea plumes exist, but she is predicting that some of the spill's most significant impacts will be caused by their effect on juvenile sea creatures such as bluefin tuna. Lubchenco and her staff say they are now working smoothly with USF and other academic institutions in investigating the consequences of the largest marine oil spill in history.

However, Hogarth said, not all is hunky-dory.

USF's first NOAA-sponsored voyage to take samples after Deepwater Horizon, the one that turned up evidence of the undersea plumes, was designed to gather evidence for use in an eventual court case against BP and other oil companies involved in the disaster. At the end of the voyage, USF turned its samples over to NOAA, expecting to get either a shared analysis or the samples themselves back. So far, Hogarth said, they've received neither.

NOAA's top oil spill scientist, Steve Murawski, said Monday that he was "sure we will release the data" at some point. However, he said, because NOAA has collected so many samples over the past three months, when it comes to the samples from USF's trip in May, "I'm not sure where they are."

Lubchenco's agency came under fire last week for a new report that said "the vast majority" of the oil from Deepwater Horizon had been taken care of. Scientists who read the report closely said it actually said half the oil was still unaccounted for.

Lubchenco said anyone who read the report as saying the oil was gone read it wrong.

"Out of sight and diluted does not mean benign," she said.

<snip>

Link: http://www.tampabay.com/news/environment/usf-says-government-tried-to-squelch-their-oil-plume-findings/1114225

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. I know the story

but still you CAN FIND if the oil is still flowing. THEY KNOW THAT

Here

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2539219

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcns.miis.edu%2Fnpr%2Fpdfs%2Fgupta53.pdf&ei=GahkTKXFEYScsQOKydHyCA&usg=AFQjCNEGFBVNT_6Q-WQ5BK9ZZu6HxdgYMA

So if you are so inclined, you can find out if there is still oil flowing from the well.

You might want to hire somebody qualified to interpret imagery, but they know that. So lying is not a good idea.

Also notice they TRIED to squelch it... we all known about the oil in the water column for months, and if you see that USN subs are going around it... they are avoiding "falling in." They are like air pockets.

Oh and I noticed that at this stage you really haven't addressed what is to gain NOW?

[WillyT]

24. So Basically... You Trust Yourself...

also my point... in that I really don't trust any of the other actors in this episode to give us the entire, true, unvarnished story.

It's that 'Ole Time Paternalism'...

"Don't bother their pretty little panicky heads."

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Look this we don't trust the government

runs deep in the US... and runs on BOTH SIDES. So do the conspiracy theories.

That is the truth.

As I told you, you do not want to trust them... in this case, given that we can all find out, we really can... what is there to gain?

Now if you don't want to trust them... how far is that lack of trust goes? And how wide spread? If this is just WIlly T, ok it really matters little... or if it is you and ten of your friends... and the same on the other side. Once, oh 150 million in this country don't trust their government and find all suspect, we have entered into a very serious issue of legitimacy. The government at that point is no longer legitimate.

Here from the Wiki

n political science, legitimacy is the popular acceptance of a governing law or régime as an authority. Whereas “authority” denotes a specific position in an established government, the term “legitimacy” denotes a system of government — wherein “government” denotes “sphere of influence”. Political legitimacy is considered a basic condition for governing, without which, a government will suffer legislative deadlock(s) and collapse. In political systems where this is not the case, unpopular régimes survive because they are considered legitimate by a small, influential élite.<1>

Even if I find the wiki at times suspect, but it is close enough to a good working definition.

This is why I am asking, what else are you not trusting the government?

For the record you could say the Bush Administration had a fairly low legitimacy (for American historic standards)... and I am curious, how low is this one?

If this becomes a pattern, no matter who is in power, over minor and major issues, we are in trouble.

And as to this is concerned. I have no way to truly confirm them. SO yes, I have to take a leap of faith. It is not like I can take a sub down there, can I? On edit, but I could buy images.

[Poboy]

27. Will BP Skip the Relief Well, Declare Mission Accomplished, and Abandon Ship Without Permanently Kil

Will BP Skip the Relief Well, Declare Mission Accomplished, and Abandon Ship Without Permanently Killing the Oil Leak?

Yesterday, I pointed out that - while everyone is claiming that the oil well has been capped - it hasn't really been capped.

AP reported last night:

BP, U.S. mull whether to skip 'bottom kill'

***
The federal government and BP have recently raised the possibility that they won't need to perform the operation at all, since the well was plugged last month with mud and cement pumped in through the top.

(Bottom kill is, of course, just another phrase for relief wells.)

Similarly, Bloomberg writes today:

BP Plc may not finish drilling a relief well to its Macondo well in the Gulf of Mexico, National Incident Commander Thad Allen said during a conference call today.

The relief well, which for months has been touted by the U.S. government as the ultimate solution to stopping the flow from Macondo -- a process known as “killing” the well -- may not be needed after all, Allen said.

Oil industry expert Robert Cavnar has a must-read piece today on the situation:

For the last several days, I've been trying to figure out what BP is doing and what is the actual condition of BP's MC252 well after their "static kill" and cementing procedure last week apparently didn't work. You'll recall that when Kent Wells announced this procedure, he actually used the words "killed" and "dead".



Full/Link-
http://www.georgewashington2.blogspot.com/

[Poboy]

11. Well...

This is not so cut and dry as you are trying to make it. We were told on news programs that the relief wells were going to be done, even AFTER the capping, to 'permanently seal the well'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. They must be thinking that they are capped

they are not taking this decision just because.

[MadHound]

22. Given two things,

That the well casing and surrounding cap infrastructure is to some extent structurally compromised.

That BP's record for lack of truth and honesty in this process has been, well, compromised.

Why should we take them at their word on this? And why should we let them put us at possible further risk for damage in order that they can save a few more millions.

Furthermore, oil drilling is like nuclear power, you have to have a belt and suspenders type of mindset. If you don't, you're going to get burned sooner or later.

Not to mention the fact that actually doing what they are supposed to would cost them a few millions, but it could also bring some decent PR their way, which they sorely need.

That's why you need a second relief well.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. And it is that structural issue

that may drive the, we may not finish the second one. Why? It is stable. Drill means vibration

Oh and they say not finishing it is a low probability by the way.

Now is still flowing?

Or are they lying about that one too.

[Raineyb]

29. To kill the damn thing from the bottom. This is ridiculous, other countries, ones that give a damn

about preserving the commons, mandate by law that there be a relief well when doing things like this in addition to the cut off switch that had failed in this case in the first place. I see no reason why they should be let off the hook vis a vis the relief well now. This is bullshit and if our government can't make the damn company do what they had told it to do in the first place instead of helping the company weasel out of its obligation why the fuck should anyone trust it?

[pitohui]

3. i trust them, how have they "earned" that mistrust? quite the opposite

you baffle me, from where i sit here in louisiana, obama has done what no man, what no president has ever done before -- a $20 billion victim's fund

he had BP kissing ass and on the run from day one, maybe you're not old enough to remember exxon valdez, and their "eat me, i'll see you in court in 20 years, sucka" attitude but i do

it is no secret that i supported hillary clinton and thought obama too young/inexperienced for the job of president, but after he twisted arms and got a fucking $20 billion victim's fund, ok, i was wrong and the obama supporters were right, this guy HAS IT, he has done what nobody ever did before him

i think allen is being cautious but there is VERY good chance the well is killed already, and if it isn't, we're not that far from a finished relief well, and this isn't secret stuff, they'll make the best decision they can, it benefits no one to keep the spill going

i'm not one to jump on bandwagons but i have to admit obama has proved himself above and beyond the call of duty as far as i'm concerned, this is way more than i would have expected from any one

now what do i have to say to get a paycheck as a member of the "professional" left, tee hee?

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Two corrections though

everything else is spot on

The first relief well allowed them to cap it... (they used some really fancy sensor equipment)... it has been killed.

And yes insofar as BP \ Obama... I am happy they got the 20 B fund... and that was a GOOD thing.

I am critical of the POTUS on a few things, but not this one.

I guess my street cred as a member of the PL has been tarnished now.

[pitohui]

15. thanks :-) EOM

,

[WillyT]

20. See Post #19

EOM

[Poboy]

30. This is your post as well, no?

pitohui (1000+ posts) Thu Aug-12-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #19

20. you know the phrase "trust but verify?" from saint (eyesroll) reagan?
Edited on Thu Aug-12-10 09:46 PM by pitohui
the thing is here we don't have to trust, we can verify

we can see if the oil is on the beach or not, we can see if we're getting compensation or not

i'm sorry if florida hasn't got all they want, but they weren't the victims, and they don't fucking drill for oil, and they basically do fuck all except show up with hat in hand to say, "oh you're giving half a billion dollars to lsu? well why don't you pay US off?"

if florida ever got off their ass and drilled for oil, it would be diff, but they want to do fuck all AND they are mad that we're getting the compensation because we're the ones who took the risks and had to suffer the disaster

i'm fucking sick of florida with its hand out, a rich state hustling a poor one

what's odd about that?

whenever money is being given out, rich people try to push out the poor ones, well, fuck you, florida, louisiana took the risk, louisiana suffered the damage, and we're entitled to most of the pay off and i'm tired of florida even trying to pretend this affects them...it's abt $ and about a rich state w. political clout trying to take what's ours

this post refers to a uni in florida trying to get what's being given to lsu, even tho we in louisiana and engineers/profs/studies at lsu have long supported the industry, while florida has done fuck-all...sorry but every scammer in florida you pay off is a real person in louisiana who doesn't get paid off

we drilled the oil, florida didn't, yet they want a cut, they can go to hell in my humble view sorry

nobody hid the fact that there were oil plumes, that's just a damn fucking lie straight up told to try to grab what's ours and send it to florida to shut up extortionists

---
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8936473#8937625

=====


I think this says all we need to know about your opinion.

[karynnj]

18. The title is somewhat over stated as Allen said “We think it’s a low probability that we would not

finish the relief well.”

[WillyT]

21. And Chris Dodd Thinks Elizabeth Warren Is A "Fine Nominee"...

He's the ONLY fuckwad in the Dem Party known to be "blocking" her, but...

You see how the doubt and double-speak infects the body politic.

Since nobody "shoots straight" everybody is suspect.

Again, my point.

:shrug:

[another saigon]

28. "Does Obama Fear "Bottom Kill" of BP Gulf Well?"

Does Obama Fear "Bottom Kill" of BP Gulf Well? BP Insider gives a heads up.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Does-Obama-Fear-Bottom-Ki-by-Rob-Kall-100813-800.html


Rob Kall - Writer


For months, Thad Allen, Obama's point man on the gulf oil disaster, has beenpushing for a "bottom kill" for the past few months, claiming it was the only way to be sure the well was really shut down.

This afternoon, Allen will be calling for cancelling the bottom kill.

Did Allen change his mind or did the White House decide it was too risky, politically?

Is cancelling the bottom kill the right move? If so, based on what expert guidance?

My deep source inside BP reports to me:

Right now, the US Gov't and Thad Allen want to avoid a bottom-kill, if possible. They're afraid of blowing the casing apart and creating a monumental disaster (once the casing is exploded, the hole can't be plugged).

BP is pushing, hard, to bottom-kill the well; they don't want to have to come back. BP is prepared to embark on a PR campaign to get 'the people' to push for a bottom-kill - and I think the campaign would be structured to give BP some kind of plausible deniability if things go wrong, as in, "We were neutral, but we'll do what the residents of the Gulf Coast want."

We can seek scientific experts to get their opinions, but so many of them have been bought by BP.We know that the government agencies that are supposed to police oil drilling have been impaired.

[BeFree]

32. Another game

BP has drilled this new well, and they will never pour a drop of concrete in it. Why? Because it is a well that they can pump oil out of.

[another saigon]

35. exactly

:(

[amborin]

31. knr

[Individualist]

33. I trust neither Allen, BP nor the Administration.

As you say, they've earned that mistrust.

[tnlefty]

34. No.

I've been checking Bob Cavnar's site, dailyhurricane.com, and he's not buying a lot of their shit either.

[Poboy]

36. Killing the BP well: An editorial

Published: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 6:00 AM

Editorial page staff, The Times-Picayune

Adm. Allen described the pressure test as "an overabundance of caution.'' If so, that was the right approach to take. This disaster, which began when the Deepwater Horizon blew up on April 20, spewed 200 million gallons of crude oil into the Gulf of Mexico until it was capped in mid-July. The federal government should insist that BP take every precaution to make sure that it is sealed for good.
That's the same thinking that prompted federal officials to require a second relief well -- in case something went wrong with this one.

The decision to go ahead with bottom kill makes sense even if it's "a nearly redundant safety measure,'' Gov. Bobby Jindal said.
He's right about that. But Bob Bea, a petroleum engineering professor with the University of California, Berkeley, sees it as necessary. "Everything we know at this time says we need to continue the work with the relief wells. We don't know the details of how they plugged the well from the top. We don't know the volume of material they put in the well bore, and without that we can't tell how close to the bottom of the well they got.''
This is one monster than needs a wooden stake through its heart, and it's good that the federal government is insisting on it.


http://www.nola.com/news/gulf-oil-spill/index.ssf/2010/08/killing_the_bp_well_an_editori.html