What is the difference between a straw man and a red herring?

[uppityperson]

I notice the term "straw man" thrown around a lot, sometimes appropriately, sometimes not, was wondering why the term "red herring" isn't used and what the difference is.

[baldguy]

1. A straw man is camouflage; a red herring is a lure.

[Furiousliberal]

2. Wikipedia to the rescue!!!

[SteppingRazor]

3. There is a difference.

A straw man is a nonexistent argument that you create in order to bash it down, to make your own side of a debate look stronger. George Bush was famous for them -- "Some people say, that Iraqis cannot govern themselves. I reject this."

Of course, no one to my knowledge ever said Iraqis were incapable of self-rule.


A red herring on the other hand, is a distraction thrown into a debate that has nothing to do with the debate itself. For example, I'll talk about getting out of Iraq in a second, but first, I want to talk about the terrorists and how they plan to attack us.

[John Q. Citizen]

8. Ding ding ding!

We have a correct answer.

[uppityperson]

10. Thank you and all who answered. So claiming you said or implied something

and bashing/arguing that is a strawman, whereas something thrown in to distract (can be related or unrelated) is a red herring. However the strawman is also to distract from whatever the topic is.

[dipsydoodle]

15. And while you're at it

Learn the Difference Between Imply and Infer

http://grammartips.homestead.com/imply.html

.....which used correctly but some don't.

:hi:

[Statistical]

23. Strawman and red herring are just 2 of the 42 logical fallacies.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

A good read to learn (or at least be casually acquainted with all of them.

I doubt there are many threads on DU without at least one logical fallacy.

Some other notable ones:

False Dilemma Fallacy (common in the "if you don't support Obama you wan't Republicans to win threads)
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html

Guilty By association Fallacy (common in threads about guns. NRA support x, we don't like NRA, thus x MUST be false)
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html

Burden of Proof Fallacy (common in threads that begin with wild claim, and then when questions the person making claim demands proof it isn't true)
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

[Statistical]

20. Very good explanation (and examples) of the difference between the two.

Both are logical fallacies. Both are routinely used by those who can't argue on the merits.

[wtmusic]

4. The straw man fallacy has a surprising number of applications.

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

A red herring involves a totally unrelated topic used as a distraction.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

5. 2 kilograms?

[flvegan]

6. A straw man will burn faster (unless he's wet).

[aikoaiko]

18. word.

[Hannah Bell]

7. straw misrepresents the other's position. herring = any kind of irrelevant diversion

[JoePhilly]

24. Yours is the most succinct answer.

A Strawman is used misleadingly as the "other position" ... it exaggerates, or ignores key points, basically creating a caricature of the "others" actual position. This false argument is then easily pounded into DUST so that my position looks better. During the HCR debate, the GOP claimed that HCR was a "total government take over of health care". That argument is a false caricature of the bill.

A Red Herring is an argument that has almost no real relevance, but which is put forward and is simply intended to distract. In the Health care debate, TORT REFORM was a Red Herring. The GOP pretended this was a real issue to distract and create damage.

On immigration ...
Claims that comprehensive reform are "Amnesty" is a false straw-man.
The GOP demands for an immigration fence is another red herring.

[slackmaster]

9. Straw Man is a false representation of someone else's position

A Red Herring is just a distraction, something irrelevant to the present discussion.

[scheming daemons]

11. A Red Herring will kick a Straw Man's ass 9 times out of 10

Always bet on the Red Herring.



By the way... this post is a Red Herring, not a Straw Man.

[scheming daemons]

12. Here's an example of a Straw Herring

Person A: I want the Public Option

Person B: The fact that you are pro-communist has nothing to do with whether Bret Favre will retire or not.

[Statistical]

21. The rarely seen Straw Herring in action.

:rofl:

[leveymg]

13. straw man is an imputed argument (not made by the opponent); a red herring is a

distraction intended to throw the argument off-course. Kinda like pointing out that a smelly fish is lying on the ground under the opponent's side of the podium - doesn't prove your point, but may upset the opponent's concentration. A subtle difference, but an important one.

[ZombieHorde]

14. A straw argument is one which attacks a misrepresentation of your opponent's argument.

For example: President Obama's policy regarding X is horrible. / President Obama can not wave a magic wand and fix everything in 18 months.

A red herring argument is one which distracts from the actual point being made.

For example: President Obama's policy regarding X is horrible. / Good luck with Republican rule.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nykym]

17. A Red Herring

will taste much better than a straw man if cooked properly.

[MajorChode]

19. All strawmen are red herrings

Not all red herrings are strawmen.

[Stinky The Clown]

22. You can serve smoked herring in sour cream.

Strawman, not so much.