The Chevy Volt Is An Extended Range Electric Vehicle (not a conventional hybrid)

[Motown_Johnny]

Reading some other threads I can't help but be dismayed by the number of DUers who are clueless about this vehicle.



Conventional hybrid vehicles use both an electric engine and a gasoline/diesel engine to transfer power to the drive wheel(s).



The Chevy Volt Does Not Do That!



It only uses electricity to power the drive wheel(s). In this way it is a pure electric vehicle. Unfortunately due to the technology of batteries right now the range is limited to about 40 miles if you are using it as a plug in. To extend the range it has an on board electric generator that runs on a small gasoline engine.


This engine runs to recharge the battery so you don't need to plug it in every 40 miles.

This engine also runs at a steady pace, not being revved up to take off from a stop light and then slowing down again when you catch up to traffic. It is far more efficient than the way we have been powering our vehicles.


When you consider that half of our electricity is produced by burning coal you might think better of this use of gasoline to recharge the electric vehicle.


Pure plug ins may not be the way of the future. It is unlikely you will ever take your kids across country in a pure plug in. Once the technology improves it is very possible you may someday take your kids across country in an extended range electric vehicle.



Here is a link that explains the difference between the Leaf and the Volt



http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/07/27/by-the-numbers-chevy-volt-vs-nissan-leaf/









P.S. I have nothing against pure plug in electrics, I just think the limitations may be more than some consumers will ever be able to accept. Honestly I am a CAV fan but that is way off topic.

[safeinOhio]

1. I would like to know

about cold weather operation. I would think that all electric and possibly a small engine with a limited radiator system would not be very efficient at heating and defrosting in below zero temps. Any word on that?

[Motown_Johnny]

3. I would need to research it but if we are comparing pure plug ins to extended range

electrics I would think that the pure plug ins might be at a disadvantage here.


ask again in January :sarcasm:

[safeinOhio]

11. I remember old VWs, air cooled, no radiator,

having an optional gas heater that didn't work very well. My guess is that it would take a lot of electric power from the drive train to heat and defrost, making cold weather range suffer greatly.

[Motown_Johnny]

14. unless they are running the gas engine for heat

adding this about fuel economy, looks like the bottom end is 48 mpg and top end is more like 100 mpg (or mpge)






http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10037173-48.html

^snip^


In this configuration, the Volt can slip through about 85 percent of the EPA's test cycle without even firing up the gasoline engine. Using the EPA's standard formulas to calculate fuel economy, the Volt averages over 100 mpg. The EPA doesn't think that astronomical number is fair and has revised its tests with the requirement that the Volt finish the test with its batteries close to full charge, which means the internal combustion engine must run for the entirety of the test, dropping fuel economy to about 48 mpg.

GM, of course, argues back that the EPA's new test isn't fair because the test isn't representative of the way the Volt was designed to operate and doesn't reflect the Volt's plug-in option for battery charging.

The truth lies somewhere in between, but the EPA rating assigned will play a big role in whether consumers think the $40,000 Volt is a good deal compared with the Toyota Prius and the upcoming, and even less expensive Honda Insight.

[Tesha]

20. Ultimately, the sticker *MUST* be revised to report both...

pure Miles-per-gallon and pure kilowatt-hours per mile.

Only in that way can a real customer figure out what their
actual fuel costs will be.

Tesha

[Motown_Johnny]

28. or a range from worst possible to best possible

48 mpg - 100 mpg (depending on driving habits and conditions)


something like that

[Schema Thing]

2. The Chevy Volt is a very good concept

A reasonable range electric (most people drive under 40 miles per day) coupled with a gas engine electrical generator for longer trips.


Great mileage, great range if you have to have it some days, using electric for what electric is good for (turning wheels at any speed/power demand) and gas for what gas is good for (running at a set speed generating electricity).


This is the way to go until battery technology or capacitor technology has improved tenfold.

[niyad]

4. have you seen "who killed the electric car?"??

Who Killed the Electric Car?




Who Killed the Electric Car? is a 2006 documentary film that explores the creation, limited commercialization, and subsequent destruction of the battery electric vehicle in the United States, specifically the General Motors EV1 of the mid 1990s. The film explores the roles of automobile manufacturers, the oil industry, the US government, the Californian government, batteries, hydrogen vehicles, and consumers in limiting the development and adoption of this technology.

It was released on DVD to the home video market on November 14, 2006 by Sony Pictures Home Entertainment.

During an interview with CBS News, director Chris Paine announced that he would be making a sequel: Who Saved the Electric Car?,<2> later renamed Revenge of the Electric Car.
. . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F

[Motown_Johnny]

6. yes, a couple of times but not for years

and I don't remember range of the vehicles being discussed in depth.



Frankencars? It seems they are returning from the dead.

[petronius]

5. Does that mean that the Volt runs off the battery for ~40 miles and then the

generator starts? So that, as long as you plugged it in every <40 miles it would burn no gas?

For a comparison with gas vehicles, how much gas would it burn if you just drove the 300 miles in one go; what is the gas mileage (if it's fair to call it that)?

I find this pretty attractive, since we do a lot of <40 mile drives, but will go on 100+ mile trips more than once a month. I can easily imagine that some of the roads we drive would have lots of miles between plugs, which would make me very uncomfortable with all electric...

[Motown_Johnny]

8. first question, yes.. if you plug it in every 39 miles or so it is a pure plug in

as for the other questions I would rather you went to the link than take my word for anything. I am not an expert, I just go to the auto show every year and make a point of following all the new tech every year.


Also, I know that in the new X-Prize (for high range vehicles) they are using what they call MPGE Miles Per Gallon Equivalent to compare different fuels.

[petronius]

9. So I googled around and looked at the Chevy page, and it appears that

they haven't announced the size of the gas tank - sort of annoying that we know the music player has a 30 GB hard drive (priorities?), but we don't know the fuel capacity. Maybe they haven't decided. :shrug:

It does look like there's an interesting debate going on about determining mileage for cars like this, though; car shopping will require some serious math in the next few years...

[Motown_Johnny]

10. but they are already being produced.. and the range is announced

maybe they are doing a crappy job getting that information out but it must be there.


as I posted elsewhere


The X-Prize for high mileage vehicles is now using MPGE, Miles Per Gallon Equivalent. I think the math is being done for us.

[Motown_Johnny]

13. here are bing search results....

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Chevy+volt+gas+tank+size&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IE8SRC


editing to add this link about fuel economy

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10037173-48.html

^snip^



In this configuration, the Volt can slip through about 85 percent of the EPA's test cycle without even firing up the gasoline engine. Using the EPA's standard formulas to calculate fuel economy, the Volt averages over 100 mpg. The EPA doesn't think that astronomical number is fair and has revised its tests with the requirement that the Volt finish the test with its batteries close to full charge, which means the internal combustion engine must run for the entirety of the test, dropping fuel economy to about 48 mpg.

GM, of course, argues back that the EPA's new test isn't fair because the test isn't representative of the way the Volt was designed to operate and doesn't reflect the Volt's plug-in option for battery charging.

The truth lies somewhere in between, but the EPA rating assigned will play a big role in whether consumers think the $40,000 Volt is a good deal compared with the Toyota Prius and the upcoming, and even less expensive Honda Insight.






so even at 48 (50?) mpg with a 300 mile range it looks like a 6 gallon tank

[high density]

15. I dunno how anybody can think this car is a "good deal"

At that price it seems to be targeting Prius drivers who think a Prius isn't exclusive enough anymore.

[Motown_Johnny]

17. isn't the Prius more of a compact and the Volt more of a mid sized car?

I could look up the sizes of those cars if you want but the dimensions for the Volt are on my OP.

I go to the auto show every year and have see these vehicles up close. The Volt appears to be a much nicer car to me.

[ThomWV]

26. What it will burn in that 40 miles is about a half ton of coal

When will people get it in their heads that electric vehicles are powered primarily by coal - the filthiest fuel source we have available to us.

[Motown_Johnny]

29. I get it, but electricity is still much more efficient than gasoline or diesel

so it works out to be better for the environment


here is some info, I can find more if you want. The University of Michigan has a study on this somewhere.


http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~wilkins/writing/Samples/policy/voytishlong.html


^snip^



While these coal-fired electric vehicles will emit more of some pollutants, they still will emit less carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons than a comparable internal combustion engine vehicle.

[IDemo]

33. Can you tell us where you got that figure from?

The electricity generated per ton of coal is 0.4 x 6,150 kWh or 2,460 kWh/ton.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question481.htm

The Volt uses about one kilowatt/hour of energy every 5 miles, or 8 kW/hrs for 40 miles.
http://gm-volt.com/2007/08/29/latest-chevy-volt-battery-pack-and-generator-details-and-clarifications

Dividing the energy used by the Volt for a 40 mile drive by the energy output of one ton of coal, we get .003252. Multiply that by 2000 and you get 6.5 pounds, not "half a ton".

There is no question that the energy and environmental benefits of EV's and PHEV's are higher in areas with hydro and alternative energy. But it doesn't help your argument to make up numbers. It has been shown by studies done by the DOE that even when powered by coal, EV's contribute less CO2 per mile than any similar internal combustion vehicle.

[Chan790]

36. Only in some places...

I know that in Hartford where I used to live that a net total of <1% of our electricity was produced from coal, 18% from oil and 64% nuclear, some ~20% "trash to energy", the rest being other{LNG, solar, wind, etc.}. I know this because CL&P (our power company) used to send out mailings yearly about now "clean" our energy was.

edit: usually right before they raised rates.

[Tesha]

7. The Volt can actually be accurately described as a "series hybrid".

The Prius, by comparison, is a "parallel hybrid".

If memory serves, the original Honda Insight was also a
series hybrid, albeit with a *MUCH* smaller battery so it
really couldn't run in pure-electric mode.

Tesha

[Motown_Johnny]

16. self delete, linked to wrong post

[safeinOhio]

12. True hybrids have been around forever, only

on railroads and not highways. The modern, and not so modern diesel locomotives have engines that drive a generator that powers electric motors for power.

[Tesha]

22. 99% of Diesel-electric railroad locomotives *ARE NOT* hybrids...

...in the sense that we mean it for cars. They have no
electrical energy storage; they simply use electricity for
a very handy transmission medium between the prime
mover (the diesel engine) and the wheels.

If they use regenerative braking at all, they simply "burn
off" the electricity in resistor grids ("dynamic braking").
(Most purely-electric locomotives do feed power back
to the electrical supply.)

A very few of the latest locomotives are starting to experiment
with traction batteries; those could accurately be described as
"hybrids".

Tesha

[madrchsod]

18. the biggest problem the first electric car had was...

finding an outlet to plug in the charger...took almost a 100 years to figure out that problem....:rofl:

[Motown_Johnny]

19. no gas stations back then either

[NNN0LHI]

21. I was thinking about this when I went to sleep last night

I had seen people referring to the Volt as a hybrid here and its not.

Thanks for clarifying this misnomer.

Don

[Tesha]

23. See my reply #16; it can be called a "series hybrid". (NT)

[Motown_Johnny]

30. Tesha means #7....( #16 was my incorrectly linked post)

[Tesha]

34. Thanks -- right you are! (NT)

[tinrobot]

24. The Chevy Volt is also a very expensive compromise.

In trying to please everyone, GM has made an expensive car that will please few.

Those who want to get off of gasoline completely will probably opt for a pure EV like the Leaf. Those who need more range and don't mind using gas could get similar gas mileage from a Prius for half the price. Those who have over $33k to spend are usually people who don't buy Chevrolets, they usually buy BMWs and other upmarket brands.

[ThomWV]

25. Before its done it will also prove to be a mighty expensive failure

For this thing to work they will have to improve the range by a factor of 4~5 and reduce the price by nearly half. Not a chance in hell of those two things happening. In the meantime pie-in-the-sky idiots can keep on thinking that somehow windmills, rather than coal mines, will the the source of the energy these things will consume, another case of not a chance in hell of happening.

[Motown_Johnny]

32. the range is unlimited. you just start recharging the battery with the on board

generator at around 40 miles.

If you mean they need to improve the pure electric range then you need to think of 2 things.

1) The Leaf only has a range of about 100 miles with no on board option to recharge it

2) Battery technology is improving. Not quickly enough for my taste but it is improving. This will extend the range of the vehicle as a pure electric without any design changes (but it is reasonable to assume there will also be design changes to improve the pure electric range).




These "pie in the sky idiots" are better informed than you are. Even if you burn coal to power an electric car it is better for the environment than a gasoline powered car. Yes coal is worse than gasoline but the electric motor is so much more efficient than the internal combustion engine it MORE than makes up for it.


I suggest you read this and look up, doesn't that cloud look like a peach cobbler to you?


http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~wilkins/writing/Samples/policy/voytishlong.html


^snip^

While these coal-fired electric vehicles will emit more of some pollutants, they still will emit less carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons than a comparable internal combustion engine vehicle.

[Tesha]

27. It will sell well enough.

I'm on record here saying that no GM car interests me, but
if we had the money, we'd buy a Volt.

It meets Mr. Tesha's daily commute just fine, with a little
margin to spare. And the range-extending feature would
be fine for those days when he needs to run a few errands
on the way home.

Besides the fact that it would work well for us, we'd buy it
just to encourage further development of such vehicles.
But sadly, we don't have the money right now. But I'm sure
others of similar mind *DO* have the money so I expect
GM will sell "enough" Volts. And over time, with rising pro-
duction rates, the price of the lithium-ion batteries will
become much more affordable to all of us.

Honestly, I wish GM well with the Volt.

Tesha

[Motown_Johnny]

31. I see the glass as half full. People will spend money for a status symbol car

and the Volt is designed with that in mind.


There are also people who make good money who drive as a part of their jobs. Many sales people who need to travel might see this as cost effective. I know someone (not well) who is a nurse who visits patients recently released from the hospital. She basically drives all over the place every day taking peoples blood pressure and taking blood samples (over simplifying). A nice car with excellent gas mileage may be just what the doctor ordered.




We live in a capitalist society. If anything meaningful is going to ever get done it needs to use the "free" market to do it. This is a first step, not the last one. I can envision the same people who convert old diesel pick up trucks to run on vegetable oil getting ahead of a Volt and dropping in a fuel cell or some other power source that makes it even more environmentally friendly.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first footstep or the first gallon of gas (unless you are driving a Volt, then you go ~40 miles before burning any gasoline).

[Touchdown]

35. For $40,000, they should've put that electric system in this instead.

It even looks like a Prius!

[Touchdown]

37. Kick

:kick: