Bring Back the Draft

[Goldstein1984]

Let's be honest. It's so easy for most Americans to be militaristic and support the war in Afghanistan or anyplace else because they are not the ones doing the dying. The volunteer military relieves us of responsibility--only people who want to fight have to. And the economy provides a steady stream of disposable citizens at the recruiting offices professing their economically-induced patriotism. The rest are about as likely to find themselves in combat as the children of Bush or Obama.

Bring back the draft. Bring back the enlightened self interest that drove the opposition to the Vietnam war. It's time to end the wars by making them equal opportunity employers.

Bill Moyers suggested it in 2009.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2009/10/bill_moyers_essay_restoring_ac.html

[Vickers]

1. Which branch were you in?

:shrug:

[Goldstein1984]

6. USMC

[Vickers]

15. Would you prefer conscripts or volunteers next to you?

Serious question. I go back and forth on the whole draft thing, depending on my mood, what's at stake, and who I'm talking to, lol.

(FTR, I'm USAF, post-draft).

[Goldstein1984]

24. I don't believe a volunteer military with membership composed

of economic refuges is likely to be any better or worse than a conscripted military.

What I do believe is that we're still in Afghanistan because it's so easy for the average American for us to be there.

The truth was that I didn't serve with any drafted Marines, although I did serve with a lot who joined to have some say in which service they would serve.

[Biker13]

105. Marines Don't Draft

How could you not know that?

I come from a long and proud line of Marines!

Biker's Old Lady

[Brother Buzz]

116. Marines sure as hell did draft men

1966 in particular, but men were drafted into the marines from '65-'69.

How could you not know that?

[laughingliberal]

2. K & R nt

[glen123098]

3. As a 24 year old straight male...

Fuck no. You join first. Don't make me fight in these fucking wars.

[Goldstein1984]

5. See how quickly the wars would end?

[glen123098]

7. Yeah, it only took about 7 years for the Vietnam War to end with the draft...

[Goldstein1984]

10. And Afghanistan is the longest war in American history without one

[era veteran]

34. Ended in two years with lottery/ been here before

Last man to be drafted at UK in 1972/ I joined. .... Power will not send their kids to a fucked up war
Posted by era veteran in General Discussion: Presidency
Tue Dec 01st 2009, 12:12 PM
A true universal draft would be the MOST democratic act our republic could enact. There maybe wars that need or have to be fought, but the cult of fucking imperialistic adventuring would be curtailed. We need a strong military so we don't need to use it. The military-industrial bund wages war for profit. The United States should wage war only for true national defense. Now we have our in house mercenary army supported by private, corporate armies. A Republic should have a truly representative Army. Now what did you say? Peace, Richard

My point again is The rich won't start war for profit if their kids are subject
Posted by era veteran in General Discussion: Presidency
Wed Dec 02nd 2009, 01:09 AM
I am sorry I did not go into more detail about 'no outs' . People that are physically & mentally challenged, of course should not be drafted but this should be certified by military doctors, not the Doctor down the street. In other words a fucking anal cyst would not keep you out. Point again A universal / fair draft would eliminate wars for profit. why should the poor fight the wars for the rich? Why?
Universal Draft/ No rich boy deferments
Posted by era veteran in General Discussion: Presidency
Wed Dec 02nd 2009, 02:25 AM
Everybody gets to go not just the poor. Evaluations done by military doctors. I am all about class war since Reagan declared it. The majority of this country is ignorant as hell about these wars. They have no stake in it. The "aristocracy" must serve. The lottery worked just fine. Want war? then everybody fights. Not just the Sardaukar. Peace, Richard

[LostinVA]

37. It ended quicker than that

[willing dwarf]

8. And as the mother of 17 & 15 year olds

My response was the same as yours. Fuck no! You join first! Don't make my innocent kids fight in these messing wars.

But writing that I realize too that if am so strongly against people fighting in these wars, I also need to work harder to voice my opposition to them.

[laughingliberal]

11. +1000 nt

[Goldstein1984]

12. That's exactly my point

Those disposable citizens--the ones we insincerely refer to as "our best and our brightest"--are just as innocent.

These wars will end when every American has a loved one who could end up dying in them.

It's easy to be a war monger when someone else is doing the actual dying.

[Book Lover]

18. "These wars will end when every American has a loved one who could end up dying in them."

Ha. Ha. Ha. As if the people who make the wars happen would listen. Your assertion is naive.

[Goldstein1984]

26. Nixon was trying to end conscription because he recognized

that much of the opposition to Vietnam was due to the draft impacting so many people.

My assertion is based on history.

[Book Lover]

30. Indeed - a world that no longer exists

In any case, it's simply not possible to implement a truly universal draft. Your dream scenario can't include, for instance, both parents of a young child, or a mentally or physically disabled person. The rich and influential will have their family members serve somewhere safe. Nor could the machine feed, house, and give jobs to all the people pouring into it. The way to end the militaristic imperial expansion of the empire is revolution, not feeding the war machine.

[Goldstein1984]

33. We recently made the decision to stay in Alaska

because we believe what you are saying is true, is going to happen, and that our family will be safer here.

[w8liftinglady]

59. I agree with you in theory-but can you see revolution in the USA?

As I've said,I see people turn their back on th vets,the troops,and taxes to help them when they get home.Send their asses over there time and time again,with crap...and don't treat them when they need it...don't show the war on TV...oh,God no...let's pretend it doesn't exist.How do we change that?(and mind you I have had 188 letters printed in my paper that deal specifically with this.)People in my area have no concept of what the war involves...and don't care,good Christians that they are

[Book Lover]

77. Someday, yes

Not today. Not tomorrow. In a real sense, the revolution happens every day; someday, it'll reach critical mass.

[Pithlet]

112. Thank you! A thousand times thank you! Such a stupid, deadly stupid idea.

I'm simply amazed every time I see it suggested. Let's sacrifice even more lives for fodder. That will work! Because the times are just as they were during Vietnam! Dumb, dumb, dumb... And more innocents would die.

[JohnnyBoots]

66. Not just dying, but losing limbs and eye sight too. I was at WRAMC

recently and the multitude of babyfaced soldiers missing arms and legs is heart breaking. Why should these kids be the only ones to deploy again and again and again? Most were born poor in podunk towns, why should the be the only ones to bear the burden. I agree the Draft is the fastest way to end the war. Politicains would have to worry about their own asses, which is the fastest way to to get them to vote to pull out.

[seattleblue]

4. What branch was Moyers in?

Oh that's right. None.

[Goldstein1984]

9. What does that have to do with his point...

That these wars continue because too few have a real stake in them.

It's easy to be a war monger, or even just apathetic, when someone else is doing the dying.

These wars will end when everyone knows someone who could die in them.

[laughingliberal]

13. "These wars will end when everyone knows someone who could die in them".

Exaactly!

[seattleblue]

22. It is hypocritical for him to suggest the military become

an equal opportunity employer when he was not willing to join. The draft was active when he was of military age -- how did he get out? Are you not aware of his work with the FBI in the 60s to search out the sexual lives of his fellow staffers in the White House? Or his attempts to get Morley Safer fired for his coverage of the Vietnam War?

[Goldstein1984]

27. I think it's more hypocritical for those who aren't dying in wars

to support the wars they let others do the dying in.

I'm not that concerned about what Moyers did forty years ago. I like his character now.

[Naturyl]

16. You don't have to serve to have a valid viewpoint on these issues.

That's from the GOP playbook, you know.

[seattleblue]

21. No that's from the anti-draft Vietnam war protesters playbook

you know. I know because I was one of them.

[asdjrocky]

57. I'm calling BS.

Just because I haven't done something does not mean that I can't have an opinion on it.

Childish.

[seattleblue]

72. Of course you can have an opinion

But I resent it when an old man calls for young men to do something he could have done when he was young.

[Naturyl]

14. I love your phrasing - "economically-induced patriotism."

And that's just what it is, of course. Amazing how patriotic people can be when there's a paycheck and and education in it for them.

[pinboy3niner]

20. It's also called the 'poverty draft':

http://www.notyoursoldier.org/section.php?id=3
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj0706&article=070628

[Goldstein1984]

28. I think these are people in need

who are being exploited by their nation.

I can forgive them their rationalizations about why they are joining.

I see them as victims.

[AlabamaLibrul]

43. It's not as if one is going to be a multi-millionaire for the risk of having their legs blown off

or worse.

You get a paycheck, yes, a decent one (only in comparison to minimum wage), and an education. But there's also a very high risk of traumatic brain injury, PTSD, drug addiction, depression and suicide risk. I can't think of one other job or career in today's America that carries the same risk and pays what it does.

I don't have a number to put behind it, but the people I know personally who are joining up are doing so because they would have essentially no chance to get a decent paycheck or education. They're either young impoverished men who had terrible schooling, or young men (and a couple young women) that screwed around in high school but still want to make something out of their life.

Patriotism does not always play into the equation, especially in these times. For my dad (who's a closet puke but that's for a different post), who scored very highly on the ASVAB but backed out at the last minute, it did. This was during peacetime though.

It's the economic draft.

[hack89]

47. They had no problem filling their quotas in good times

all the bad economy means is they can pick and choose their recruits. There are many that want to join that can't because of because of increased competition.

[pnwmom]

17. Wrong. We eliminated the draft after Vietnam because the draft made it too easy

for the government to funnel young Americans into the war effort. More than 50,000 died AFTER the draft began. The war protests continued for several years before we finally withdrew. Enlightened self-interest is no quick solution.

Let's not repeat the mistakes of the past. A draft will do nothing but fuel the flames of war.

[Goldstein1984]

29. I believe it would end the wars

And if it doesn't, at least we won't be exploiting the poor to fight for us.

[Hubert Flottz]

41. I believe you're right.

I think the draft would cool off the rabid war lovers.

[chrisa]

44. lol. It's the poor that get drafted.

Don't kid yourself. The rich would be nowhere near a draft.

[Orsino]

51. It helped end the Vietnam war...

...but 50,000 American troops died.

I get it; you propose to share the burden among all those not well-connected enough to evade this draft--but if we feel terrible about asking someone to be the last to die for a mistake, I don't see a humanitarian way to put in an express lane.

[era veteran]

35. see # 34

I fucking lived it. Universal , no exemption , draft now.

[Book Lover]

78. No exemption?

I keep asking these questions, and I get no answers (OK, maybe I'm just impatient) Will you then no exempt my mentally disabled son? What about both parents (universal means both sexes, right?) of a child? Where does everyone get housed? How do we afford to pay everyone? What jobs to we put these people to?

[era veteran]

88. I guess you didn't even bother to read the post, sorry

you have such a challenge in life but: People that are physically & mentally challenged, of course should not be drafted but this should be certified by military doctors, not the Doctor down the street. In other words a fucking anal cyst would not keep you out. Point again A universal / fair draft would eliminate wars for profit. why should the poor fight the wars for the rich? Why? (This was #34)

[Book Lover]

91. A) I don't need your pity, thanks

B) Why should I trust the evaluation of a military doctor, whose incentive is to sign off as many 1A's as s/he can? The military doctor's incentive is to sign my child up, not keep him/her out. In any case, I see we're not going to agree on this issue.

[era veteran]

100. No pity just common courtesy which has you acting

common. My post speaks for itself. FYI the Army has standards which does not need people who cannot perform. No Pity indeed, how were you raised that you don't comprehend courtesy . No we won't agree.

[uppityperson]

86. Congress won't pass that. I'd rather petition them to STOP the wars rather than handing them more

If you seriously believe Congress would pass such a bill, you are wrong.

[era veteran]

101. Yep, that and campaign finance reform is another goal that

we should just give up on. As long as we are a country we will have a standing Army, which should be truly democratic rather than a small demographic of a new warrior class. Stopping unjust wars is something I have been in the streets working on since May 24 1971. Will Congress pass a bill ? Surely not if no one tries. We would not be in these wars now with a truly representative Army. Petition is a sop. As worthless as redress of grievance. Peace R

[EFerrari]

19. The deterrent can't be us because the pols don't care.

They find ways to keep their kids out.

We should change term limits so no one that voted to start or fund a war could run for re-election until that war was over.

[Beam Me Up]

23. I agree w/ pnwmom and I disagree that it will be more 'faire'.

If all people were equal and if we had a government we could really trust, maybe universal conscription wouldn't be such a bad idea. But the way things are, I think it would be used as an opportunity to militarize the whole population. That's something fascists like to do, you know, and it never ends up boding well for anyone.

[Goldstein1984]

31. I don't think the entire population would allow itself to be

militarized. It's only militaristic now because too few of them pay the real price for the militarism.

[LostinVA]

39. I agree with that

[w8liftinglady]

62. I agree..but this MIGHT get their attention away from "Real Housewives of los Angeles"

[willing dwarf]

25. The big frustration

is that the war will go on.With or without a draft, with or without the bodies of our young people, the war will go on. What I hear is the military doesn't need personnel any more. They've moved on to robotic killing, drones sending bombs from remote locations. The killers sit in little rooms and play at war like it's a computer game.

How can we dismantle that?

[Goldstein1984]

32. The way we dismantle that

cannot be discussed within the rules of DU.

[Lasher]

36. Bringing back the draft to end a war is like fucking to promote virginity

I'm not a big fan of conscription.

[HughBeaumont]

38. "Yeah, I'll bet we can STOP this meat grinder by clogging it with more kids!"

:eyes:

These are occupations of choice. It's a resource heist. This is no war on terror. It was never about terror. That's just what they told the rest of us and many to this day still believe it.

[elocs]

40. So, all of these who volunteered to serve didn't understand that they might be sent into harm's way?

If you choose to be a cop you might certainly run the risk of being put into harm's way and you don't get to decide on a case by case time that you're not going to do it.

If you choose to be a firefighter you will certainly be ordered at one time or another to risk your life in a burning building.

Anyone who volunteers to join the military today must be aware that they might be sent into combat and they don't get to decide on a case by case basis as to whether they will go or not anymore than a cop or firefighter gets to decide they just won't follow orders.

It doesn't matter if it is Bill Moyers or whatever other name you want to throw up in support of a return of the draft. The reality is that it is never going to happen, but then again this is DU where belief in reality is often suspended.

[w8liftinglady]

58. Elocs,one of my friends here on DU has a family member who is being sent on their 5th tour.

So...take the few troops we have and keep sending them into a perpetual war,while the rest of the nation turns their back on them when they come home.we have incorporated profit into the war,and it will last until there isn't any more.I'd recommend reviewing the great way America has supported our troops...somehow I think this was left out of the brochure when they enlisted.

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?us_occupation_of_iraq_tmln_general_topics=us_occupation_of_iraq_tmln_poor_treatment_of_us_troops&timeline=us_occupation_of_iraq_tmln

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/17/AR2007021701172.html

http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/07/federal-court-ruling-in-kbr-case-shields-contractors-from-some-wartime-lawsuits.html

http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?288032-Soldiers-From-Poor-Families-Victims-of-War-Voting-Politicians-War-Profiteers

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0125-08.htm

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/iraq/

http://www.npr.org/templates/rss/podlayer.php?id=8896683

http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dws/txcn/houston/stories/khou090511_tnt_water-shortages-iraq-soldiers.16ebba1d.html

http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/3992/1/Study-details-US-troops-prescription-abuse/Page1.html

http://www.capveterans.com/post_traumatic_stress_disorder_in_america_s_veterans/

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/s9/index.php?/categories/102-Our-expendable-soldiers

[elocs]

95. My godson served a tour of duty in Afghanistan when he was 19.

The Korengal Valley in the mountains near the border with Pakistan. Not a nice place to be. In fact coalition troops have pulled out of there.

My godson enlisted when he was 17. Before he did I explained the situation to him, how it was very likely he would end up in either Iraq or Afghanistan. So he enlisted fully informed and aware of the consequences of his actions. He could never say "nobody ever told me". He knew exactly what he was getting in to and it is highly likely he will return to Afghanistan because he reenlisted for another 6 years after his first tour was up.

Anyone who enlisted in the past 9 years had to seriously consider that they would be sent to war. Why would they believe all the hype and hyperbole that the armed forces pour upon them? One of the oldest military lines is, "my recruiter lied to me". How can anyone who chooses to enlist ever claim they did not know they had a good chance of being sent to war with 2 wars going on?

When I was in college I was of draft age, but why would I ever enlist while the Vietnam War was going on? Fortunately I was in the 2nd draft lottery and since my number was 358 out of 366 I knew I would never be drafted. So the bottom line was that since I did not want to go to Vietnam I chose not to enlist. It was my choice.

[laughingliberal]

82. Not sure anyone had ever even heard of 'stop loss' before all this started. nt

[elocs]

96. Stop loss was created by Congress after the Vietnam War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-loss_policy

Stop-loss was created by the United States Congress after the Vietnam War. Its use is founded on Title 10, United States Code, Section 12305(a) which states in part: "... the President may suspend any provision of law relating to promotion, retirement, or separation applicable to any member of the armed forces who the President determines is essential to the national security of the United States" and Paragraph 10(c) of DD Form 4/1 (The Armed Forces Enlistment Contract) which states: "In the event of war, my enlistment in the Armed Forces continues until six (6) months after the war ends, unless the enlistment is ended sooner by the President of the United States."

Every person who enlists in a branch of the U.S. Armed Forces signs an initial contract with an eight (8) year service obligation. The enlistment contract for a person going on active duty generally stipulates an initial period of active duty from 2 to 4 years, followed by service in a reserve component of the Armed Forces of the United States for the remainder of the eight year obligation.<1> Service members whose ETS, retirement, or end of service obligation date falls during a deployment may be involuntarily extended until the end of their unit's deployment.

The moral of the story is to read what you sign.

Another point, could Obama end stop loss himself?

[laughingliberal]

98. Might not be able to end stop loss but he could end the wars. He is CIC, after all. nt

[Agony]

42. Best way to stop war is to stop contracting it out. _If_ we have a standing army

then _everyone_ should be liable to serve in it. Call it a draft if you want, I would call it an obligation. If you don't want a draft then call for a complete stand down of the military.

Eliminate profit from war and we would not have them anymore. What are the chances of that happening?

Cheers
Agony

[chrisa]

45. So, basically what this means is, let's get more people killed for a useless war.

Then, as a result, people will want to end the war quicker?

How about we just end the war with less people being killed?

(Btw., Rich people don't get drafted, and a draft certainly wouldn't end the wars. In fact, it might make them even longer).

[hack89]

46. So you support a massive increase of the US military

and the budget required to maintain it?

The military is smaller now than it has been in decades and is still down sizing. A fair draft means everyone eligible serves - both men and women. That's a huge military for our politicians to play with.

[JTFrog]

48. Equal Opportunity? Not this shit again.....

Only the poor would be forced to go. You know, those who's mommy and daddy can't buy them a deferment or five for a college degree or a boil on their ass. :shrug:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

49. Fuck that. I will not allow my children to be used as fodder for Imperialism.

[Forkboy]

50. Let's not.

[pinboy3niner]

52. You advocate compelling involuntary sacrifice--death, maiming...

...physical and psychological disability--on the HOPE that maybe, eventually, it might end a war?

I don't think anyone should be volunteering OTHER mothers' sons to suffer, and sacrifice, and die.

I knew a lot of draftees who died in Vietnam, and I was hospitalized with many others. I doubt that their families were very keen on the idea of the draft as a solution to war.

[JVS]

53. The government doesn't give a fuck if we support the wars or not. Don't give them more helping hands

[Javaman]

54. here we go again...

This is the third "bring back the draft" post I have seen this week.

Is there something in the water?

Generally speaking, drafts are only instituted when there aren't enough able bodied people in the current service to fill out the ranks.

If we ever reach that point again, we are in much deeper shit than a draft could ever solve.

So using the logic of "a draft would make all things equal across the board" fails, history has proven time and time again that the poor shoulders the majority of the burden when it comes to fighting wars.

And do you honestly think, just because some one gets drafted that they will suddenly be put on the front line? LOL I laugh long and hard at that.

Look at george w. moron*. He was fighting the good fight stateside drinking martini's and helping governors election campaigns while skating from his duty.

Please, the rich always buy off their kids duty. It's been done since the days of the Roman legion.

Want the rich to suffer like the poor?

Then tax them in relation to their income on the same level as the poor.

[Llewlladdwr]

76. Don't mean to hijack the thread...

but you do know we already have a progressive income tax regime in this country, right?

[Javaman]

109. Yeah, real progressive...

while whole sections of the rich and corporate interests pay no taxes what so ever.

Yeah real progressive.

[Llewlladdwr]

111. Talk to Congress...

They write the tax code, including all those loopholes that allow corps and the wealthy to avoid paying taxes. But the fact of the matter is that as your income goes up so does the percentage of that income that you owe as taxes.

[Javaman]

113. wow, thank you captain obvious. nt

[w8liftinglady]

55. As the mom of a three-time Iraq war vet,I agree with you.

That is one of the things that makes these wars so different from the others.When the war began,my son ran to join because he felt he would do the nation some good.He comes from a long family line of war veterans...grandpas,uncles,dads,cousins.He trained to be a truck mechanic,then spent the first year killing and guarding(no truck mechanics).He spent two more tours,and was injured in one.He has severe PTSD and I don't know if he will ever recover completely.Where I live,Ellis County Texas,there is a huge amount of chickenhawks who wave their little flags as others' kids fight the war.Their kids absolutely do not fight in the war.I agree with draft resistance,but it needs to be documented.I know this is extreme and difficult for parents.I am the mother of three sons,2 more who could be sent yet.This is the only way to get the government's attention-otherwise the same poor kids will keep being sent back while their families experience the same pain every other year,while none of the neighbors understand.

edit to remind..$33 billion war funds just approved.look at the treatment of the Viet nam veterans.the Gulf war 1 veterans...you see that changing much?Do you see politicians lining up to end the war?I know there are more..but I doubt this will change much without a huge amount of constituents rebelling.I voted for Dennis Kucinich for president,for christ's sake.I spend 20 hours a week trying to help the war vets we already have.The war will not end until ALL appreciate the sacrifice.Right now,some see it as a show on their tv...they can just change the channel and it isn't there anymore.

[asdjrocky]

56. Agreed.

When the draft was ended we celebrated like it was a good thing.

My father served in WW2 and both of my brothers were in Vietnam, and as an 18 year old boy, I was glad to be the first male family member not to go to war. What a fool I was.

My own personal gain, not having to carry a gun and shot at people, lead to endless war. When there is no draft, they privatize the war and make even more in profit. When only a small percentage of the nation serves, fewer people in the street protest.

I believe when they ended the draft, they pulled the wool over or eyes.

[Mimosa]

60. Most Americans are not militaristic and most want the war ended. n/t

[w8liftinglady]

61. Why will they NOT do anything about it,then?

I caught pure hell for my opinions,when it came to bringing the troops home...told how I don't "support the troops"(even though I spend 20 hours a week trying to help veterans-free of charge)These bastards won't know until someone they know is having to face this...or at least until there is some actual coverage on the main networks...prime time...look at these troops,people...look at the Iraqis...and then continue to dump money to benefit these private corporations.It will continue...it has gone on for 9 years so far...

[Lost4words]

63. Make it mandatory national service for all.

Bring back the draft!

[Book Lover]

74. "...mandatory national service for all."

Including the mentally disabled, who perhaps cannot understand what it is they are being forced to do? Both parents of a young child, being taken out of the workforce? What salaries will we pay everyone? How will we feed them while in service? Where will they be housed?

[Lost4words]

85. at your house!

[Book Lover]

92. Care to answer any of my other questions? (nm)

[Lost4words]

93. What would I learn? ZERO, so no thanks, no time

[Lost4words]

94. What would I learn? ZERO, so no thanks, no time

[Romulox]

64. Time to draft women into combat roles.

The war would end in a week if parents were asked to sacrifice daughters. Sons aren't worth much in our culture.

[w8liftinglady]

65. we've already lost quite a few in "non-combat" roles

http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/


edit to add...oh,but we don't hear about "Them"

[Romulox]

67. So then ending discrimination in Selective Service registration will be a natural fit.

My desire is to prevent more young people from being killed, not to "equalize" any ratios.

"oh,but we don't hear about 'Them'"

I don't understand your comment. My intent is not to make dying more egalitarian--it is to end the wars, NOW.

[w8liftinglady]

68. I want to end the wars now,too.Unfortunately,I see no trend towards that

the fact that we have already had women killed in the war with no reaction from anyone indicates that America doesn't give a shit,because they are not paying attention.I want them to come home yesterday.How will we make that happen?My protests,writing,and veterans activism have done NOTHING in my area...no change in views.My support of Dennis Kucinich caught me hell from Democrats in this area.When I DO speak to troop parents,their views are the same as mine.Until people actually realize what is happening there,there will be no change,no withdrawel.Feel free to read my letters(I've written a shitload that have been read by my neighbors,with no change-because they have no idea what the sacrifice involves.)
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/?az=archives&j=771&page=1

Women coming back post-rape and PTSD...sure-does anyone know?

[Romulox]

69. I think I understand now...

Women are too fragile for front line combat, imo. So are men. And especially civilians (men, women, and especially children.)

"How will we make that happen?"

I'm afraid we will continue the killing until the money runs out.

"Women coming back post-rape and PTSD...sure-does anyone know?"

I am thinking that homeless female veterans (many with PTSD, substance abuse, and mental illness) is going to become an ACUTE crisis in the next 5-10 years (if not already.) I do agree that we've put these women in harms way without giving any thought to the infrastructure needed back home to care for returning female veterans, many who are surviving with horrific injuries that are indistinguishable from those suffered by combat troops (e.g. injuries due to IED.) I don't belittle the sacrifice of these women even an iota, but I am done thinking that they serve "for me". I want to bring these people back, women and men, and concentrate on what will be required to begin healing.

So my suggestion isn't meant to be taken at face value. I wouldn't actually support any draft if I thought there was any chance they'd use it.

[chrisa]

70. I find that concept repulsive.

Along with the concept of a draft in general. Women and men are both dying in Afghanistan - every day, a life is ended and a family destroyed for nothing.

Supporting a draft is to support putting more people in danger. This is unacceptable.

[Romulox]

90. Did you hear about that awful Jon. Swift, who advocates eating BABIES?

What a monster that fellow was, eh?

[MisterP]

71. yeah, we got out of Vietnam after 9 years of the draft, so if it were implemented today,

we'd have until 2019

what really got us out was rebel strategy, an untenable U.S. position, mounting disgust at home (since the massacres were on TV, unlike the post-1991 "video-game wars"), and near-mutinies in the field, especially among Latinos and African-Americans

we don't need panaceas, but a change in political culture--and it's the Dem leaders' job to prevent such a change

[pitohui]

73. the boomers achieved one good thing (end of draft) so people have to shit on it

what the hell is the matter w. people?

bring back the draft for your own children and grandchildren first and show us how...

[Llewlladdwr]

75. The only folks I see proposing bringing back the draft...

are folks who won't be drafted. Funny that, eh?

[uppityperson]

79. You trust Congress, who won't stop the wars, to make an equitable draft?

I have a bridge to sell you.

[Greyhound]

80. The idea has merit but the reality is even more fucked than this. The parasites will

always have or make "Champagne Units" for the few of their progeny that can't evade the draft outright.

I think it is up to the economic refugees to make the real sacrifice and refuse to join.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

81. I already burned my draft card in '67.

It wasn't anything particularly heroic. I'd already put in 4 years of doing nothing at all beneficial to anyone in the Marine Crotch.

[wmbrew0206]

83. Not only no, but Hell No!

The current force works fine the way it is. We don't need a lot of conscripts who don't want to be there fucking everything up for those of us who volunteered.

Second, even if you do bring back the draft, who gets drafted? Every male over the age of 18 to ? Are women included? If so, how do you pay for it? That is going to take a lot more housing and pay, not to mention equipment, radios, etc. What effect will that have on the tax revenues if all of your high school and college grads are stuck at government salaries for two to four years?

Finally, what makes you think there won't be the same loop holes you saw in Vietnam? This law will be developed in Congress and all the lobbyists will make sure that there are enough loop holes so their clients and their clients kids don't have to serve.

[alpine62]

84. Politicians would think long and hard about authorizing war

if it was mandated that x number of their own family had to serve in a combat role. Because that will never happen there is no real personal impact for those who vote for war.

[uppityperson]

87. Yet congress is the ones who would have to pass that mandate. Will they?

I doubt it. How about working to stop the wars rather than restarting a draft that congress and the rich can avoid?

[alpine62]

89. Of course Congress would never pass such a mandate

Because they won't ever be faced with sending their own family members
it is too easy for them (in their insular position) to vote for war.
I don't want a draft either unless it is one with zero exemptions.
What I really don't want is more needless wars. Unfortunately, we will continue to have them exactly because it does not touch politicians in
a real and personal way.

[Warren Stupidity]

102. they authorized WWI WWII korean war vietnam war all with a draft

of those wars only two of them were remotely justifiable. There is not historical justification to the theory that a draft would prevent new wars. There is plenty of historical justification to the theory that a draft enables war.

[era veteran]

106. The lottery draft is different than a local draft board

deciding on who is called up. L O T T E R Y not 'they draft the white trash 1st around here anyhow' big difference

[Warren Stupidity]

107. no it isn't.

Local draft boards did not draft the white trash first. They drafted everyone who was eligible. Eligibility rules kept kids in college out, perhaps that is what you are referring to?

We had a lottery system during the peacetime draft from 1940-42.

[era veteran]

110. I lived it Warren

You are wrong. I was '72 lottery, the 2nd lottery year, a lot different than the 40's. Regular Army 1973- 1977 son of Regular Army 1939-1960. I could give a shit if you don't care to hear the fucking truth.

[Warren Stupidity]

114. I was the 69 draft and then the lottery.

The fucking draft board was taking every fucking body they could get their hands on. If you did not have an exemption you were drafted. We were the peak year for draft board conscription efforts.

[era veteran]

117. Not in my hometown/ county

They took the poor, the black, the unconnected,the nobodies, and either prison or Army. We had a lot of GI's but nothing like the 40's. Yes, lots of bullshit exemptions. You ever notice the quantity of male public school teachers skyrocket? Don't want to get in a pissing contest Warren, good day & good life.

[Carolina]

97. I couldn't agree more

Let all the sons and daughters of Congress critters and of the war profiteer businessmen go to the head of the line.

[matt819]

99. That's the only way these wars will end (nt)

[w8liftinglady]

103. I agree,Matt.

I am surround by rabid Repubs who don't mind sending other people's kids to this shit....while they get richer.

[lib2DaBone]

104. Bring back the draft.. get some of those "Young Republicans" on the front line...

Tucker Carlson, Ron Christie, ... I wonder how old Michael Steele is?

[nemo137]

108. I doubt the children of decision makers would serve anyway

This is the anti-war version of those "$10 tax every time you park your car anywhere!" threads. Proposes a seemingly great idea without worrying overmuch about the consequences.

[wordpix]

115. but that's the point - no one has to worry about consequences unless they're drafted or

their sons, daughters, BF's, etc. are.

I was around during the Vietnam War days and THAT war didn't go on for 9 yrs. b/c everyone knew they or their sons could be drafted. There was a lot of outrage, education and organization that started on the campuses, DRAFT CENTRAL, and spread throughout the nation. With the present wars, college students and the general public are apathetic. Yes, the taxpayers are paying for it but they're not connecting to the wars in the same way as if someone they knew was drafted, sent overseas or being cared for at home after having their legs blown off.

Our military is stretched and stressed and so are the national and state guards. As we saw with Katrina and the BP blowout, there is very little state and national organization for dealing swiftly with a disaster. With BP, we had to depend on the criminal corporation to deal with the cleanup. We need mandatory public service + Congress should take seriously their responsibility to declare war and stop the secret presidential directives like Bushco's. Congress should also not be funding wars with supplemental bills but debate the funding as part of the budget.

[earth mom]

118. Yep and it's probably the only thing that will stop the wars. nt

[Danger Mouse]

119. Who here who supports the draft would be going to fight themself OR...

having a son or daughter being drafted?

[NobodyHere]

120. If you REALLY wanted to end the war

You would add a 'War Tax' to everyone's income tax. Make everyone feel the pinch.

War would be ended tomorrow if it happened.

[pinboy3niner]

121. That's the best idea yet!

Welcome to DU, NobodyHere. That's a great first post! :hi:

[NobodyHere]

122. Thanks!

nt

[tritsofme]

123. Punish citizens into supporting your policy, a sound governing philosophy.

I think it much more likely that the party that decides it is a good idea to reinstate the draft to prove a political point would find itself out of power for a generation.

Good thing President Obama isn't this stupid.