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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:29 AM
Original message
Doctor Gives Ocala Family Discharge Papers when they refuse to answer question
Mom: Doctor Turned Kids Away Over Gun Question
Doctor Gives Ocala Family Discharge Papers


OCALA, Fla. -- Amber Ullman and her daughters are no longer welcome at Children's Health of Ocala after a recent doctor's visit.

VIDEO: Gun Question

"He was going through asking the random questions you know and then all of a sudden he asked if we have any firearms in the home and I paused and hesitated," Ullman said.

When she felt uncomfortable answering yes or no, she said Dr. Chris Okonkwo passed her discharge papers.

"It gives me 30 days to find another pediatrician," Ullman said.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/24362228/detail.html

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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. WTF does gun ownership have to do with treating these patients?
Makes you wonder if he serves his patients correctly - and if he knowingly screws them over. Wonder how many malpractice lawsuits he's had lately.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I believe that pediatricians commonly ask about guns in the home
And the very next question is something along the lines of "are the firearms secure?"


I guess they ask because they selfishly don't want to get a call at 3:00AM asking what to do about a bullet hole in the chest.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:38 AM
Original message
none of mine asked that question.
I doubt seriously if that is a common practice. And even if it were - WTH is this woman being discharged because she refused that particular question?
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
6. Mine always have.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. Clearly you're mistaken.
The question has never been asked in the entire history of American pediatric care.


I await your retraction and apology.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Well, when they ask, I know it's only because they're in a position of terrible, ill-gotten power
Edited on Fri Jul-23-10 11:11 AM by Brickbat
and they can just shove themselves into any and all aspects of my life and my children's lives, whether it has anything to do with family health or public safety, or not.

After they ask the question about guns, they usually ask if they can see my bezooms, even if I'm in because one of the kids has an ear infection. THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY CAN.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
19. It's fortunate that we've had the opportunity to hear both sides of the story.
Oh, wait--no we haven't. We've heard the woman's story, and we've heard that the questioned nurses didn't know anything about it.

If the woman was discharged because she refused to answer this one question, then obviously that's bullshit.


But is it just possible that other factors were at work, too?



Also, I accept that your pediatricians didn't ask that question, but here's a quote from the article itself:
According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, pediatricians are urged to inform parents about the dangers of guns in and outside the home and they recommend that they incorporate questions about guns into their patient history taking and urge parents who have guns to remove them from the home.


So it seems that even if these questions are not common in your experience, they are clearly recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Regardless of why he discharged her, I'd say that the question itself was entirely appropriate and reasonable.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
36. Nor mine. nt
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
61. Mine neither.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
69. Mine did
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. I was NEVER asked about fire arms in my home with either my son or my two stepchildren.
According to the article, the Paediatrics Board urges Paediatricians to warn parents about the dangers of fire arms in the home. It doesn't say to ask parents whether or not they have them or to refuse to treat them if there are.

Personally, I hate guns, but I don't see any reason whatsoever to inform my doctors of whether or not there are any in my home. It isn't any of their business, period.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Did your pediatrician ask about dangerous cleaning chemicals in your home?
Did you/would you get as upset about it as if they asked you about guns?
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
31. No, they never did. And I wouldn't expect them to ask me. They could, reasonably,
tell me about the dangers of cleaning chemicals in my home. I wouldn't get upset about that any more than I would if they told me about the dangers of children and fire arms.

I would not expect them to ask me about cleaning chemicals.

BTW, I generally use nothing more dangerous than white vinegar and liquid dish soap.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. It's super-duper that you use white vinegar and dish soap, but that's really not the point.
The pediatrician is taking the commendably pro-active step of assessing the dangers of the environment in which the child is being cared for. Honestly, I have no idea why anyone would find this intrusive or inappropriate.

If someone brought in a child with a six-inch-long laceration in her thigh, would you expect the pediatrician to ask no questions about the injury? Asking about firearms in the home is, essentially, the same thing.


Establishing a patient history is a normal and reasonable procedure, and failing to establish that history is a sign of carelessness on the part of the doctor.

Did your pediatrician give you those developmental assessment sheets to fill out? Did your pediatrician ask if your child is in a home or daycare facility with lead paint? Do you fail to see these as necessary for establishing the patient's history and environmental safety?


Why are you so skittish about this? Is it because you fear the intrusion of a medical professional who actually takes a proactive interest in the well-being of his or her patient?
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. The physician has the right and perhaps even the duty to explain and caution the parents
about hazzards to children. They don't have the right to information about anything I keep in my home. Period. It is an invasion of privacy... something a liberal or progressive should understand.

And no. Being asked to treat a child with an injury and asking questions about the injury is not the same.

For one thing, the doctor needs to know if there is a possibility of contamination of the wound and other stuff like that. For another, if a child comes in with an injury such as you are describing, they are required by law to ask about it and report it to CPS if it is suspicious.

They are not required by law or for treatment reasons to demand answers to personal questions having nothing to do with their treatment.

I answer reasonable questions from doctors. I've always been proactive in my relationships with my doctors and develope good relationships with them. They show me respect and I show them respect. If they don't show me respect, then I don't go to them or send my family to them again.

Why am I so skittish? Why are you so willing to give up your rights to privacey and mine too?


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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. The doctor can ask any question that she feels appropriate to providing care.
You are welcome to decline to answer, and you are welcome to seek another doctor who doesn't make you so nervous by asking terrifying questions about matters that relate directly to the health and well-being of a child. Equally, if the doctor feels that you are being obstructive or deceptive in your answers, she is welcome to decline to treat you further.

Would you prefer that the doctor ask nothing? If she sees a pattern of injury on a child, does the doctor have no business asking questions about those injuries? What, exactly, do you think a pediatrician is supposed to do?

Being asked to treat a child with an injury and asking questions about the injury is not the same.

I don't believe that I was claiming that they're the same. Instead, I pointed out that asking questions about an injury and asking questions about a situation that might reasonably lead to injury are both reasonable duties of the physician.

Why am I so skittish? Why are you so willing to give up your rights to privacey and mine too?

Why do you value your dubious claims of privacy over the safety of your child? Why do you infer that a doctor's professional and appropriate concern--as described by the American Pediatric Association--is an attack on your privacy? Why so paranoid?

If the doctor asked whether you keep roller skates on your staircase, would you run around screaming that she'd violated your privacy?
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #45
78. You know what Orex? You have no rights over me and neither does my doctor.
My child is eighteen now and the only problem I ever had with his paeditrician was that the complacent and arrogant, "I know better than you", young doctor refused to listen to me when I told him that my son had fine and gross motor skills development delay. "Oh children develop at different rates," he told me when my son was three. Same answer when my son was four. And again when he was five and six. When my son was seven, his first grade teacher (finally someone) agreed with me at the end of the year that there was a problem. "He keeps falling out of his chair and he can't get a good grip on his pencil. I'm requesting that he be tested."

"Well," said the doctor. "If the TEACHER thinks there is something wrong, then maybe there is." :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :grr: :grr: :grr: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

And that was the last time I ever took my son to him.

By the way, the testing on my son came back that he was three years behind in his fine and gross motor skills development. Had the doctor not chosen to believe that I was an hysterical mother who was looking for trouble and ordered testing and then occupational therapy for my son, he would have been nearly good to go when he started school. Instead he didn't catch up until he began high school.

Perhaps you are a doctor and that is why you think doctors have to the right to the answer to any question they ask that they can even tenuously link to the child's health. But doctors are not infallible and don't have the right to demand answers to questions that are really none of his concern.

As to my "dubious claims of privacy over the safety of my child." Who the hell do you think you are?! I have always been very careful of my son's safety. In fact, the only times in his life that he has gotten a sun burn were times when he was in the care of a summer camp and the other time on a school field trip. Both times he had sun block with him, but, for whatever reason, was not able to apply it every two or so hours. In my care he hasn't had so much as a sunkissed nose. He had one accident when he was four when he fell and hit a metal pipe hand rail in an outdoor theatre... and that was due to his motor skill problems. The problem the doctor always implied was in my head.

I would tell you what I think of you and your nonsense but that would probably put me in violation of TOS. Suffice to say that I am done with you. Welcome to ignore.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. Feel better now?
:eyes:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
70. My son was poisoned by cleaning chemicals when he was two
They were not minor consequences.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
57. My doctor asks me that question in the same group with seat belts
It's just risk evaluation. If I say I don't wear seatbelts (I do, though) I'll get the canned seatbelts save lives speech. If I say I have guns (I don't), I'm guessing the next question would be whether they are secure, a valid question in my mind. But I certainly wouldn't expect to be fired by my doctor if I have a gun.
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mike r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. So children have to suffer for their parents' owning a gun
Well, we know guns are a leading cause of strep throat and ear infections...
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. dead kids with bullet holes in them "have to suffer for their parents'owning guns" sometimes nt
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. A very small amount....
In 2007 2722 children aged 1-10 died of accidental causes:

MV Traffic 972
Drowning 599
Fire/burn 357
Suffocation 200
Pedestrian, Other 158
Other Land Transport 70
Struck by or Against 66
Fall 52
Poisoning 51
Natural/ Environment 41
Firearm 39


Accidental firearm deaths made up 1.4% of accidental deaths and <1% of all deaths.

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/fatal.html

Then again that is from the gun lobby I mean CDC.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Suicides and accidental deaths from 11-18 up that a bit, of course.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Generally 18 year olds aren't seen by pediatricians.
Still 1-18

8,430 accidental deaths (121 or by firearms)
1,231 suicides (493 or by firearms)

Total deaths 12,187 95% of which did not involve firearms.

Pools, cars, stairs, household cleaners, stoves, electrical wiring, heavy objects all kill a magnitude more children.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
71. When parents don't luck up the guns, yes, kids can suffer
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. What is uncomfortable about answering yes or no?
The doc was not asking random questions but administering a survey designed to gauge child's health and wellbeing. I'd dismiss a noncompliant patient, too.

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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
51. It's none of the doctor's business whether or not she does
The question by its very nature implies that merely keeping a gun in the house is a dangerous act, even if it's unloaded, even if there's no ammo anywhere in the house. This is what we call observer bias, and it has no place in a doctor's office.
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spotbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. How about seat belts and bike helmets?
My kids pediatrician always asks about those as well.

They see the outcome of negligent stupidity.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Depends on your state's laws, I suppose
Seat belts are mandatory pretty much anywhere there's pavement or road signs. Bike helmets are mandatory in my state for kids and teens.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #51
72. Never bothered me
They asked about guns and if the kids were in car seats and when they were older if they wore seat belts and did I make sure to lock up medicines and household chemicals and if they wore bike helmets and how much time they spent playing video games. I actually appreciated being reminded of all these safety issues. And I appreciated the doctor's expertise on child development. Being a parent is the most important job I'll ever have. And I'll always be grateful for the help I got not only from our doctor but from many others when my kids were little.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #72
84. I will concede that if a doctor truly feels the need to ask...
Edited on Sat Jul-24-10 10:58 AM by derby378
...and he senses that the patient's mother or father is uncomfortable with answering the question, the doctor could say, "I'm not passing any value judgements on you either way. But can I make a few suggestions on how to handle guns in the house with children present?"

Granted, the Ocala doctor in question is entitled to share his side of the story. I hope he does. But if he corroborates what that mother has claimed, that is seriously not cool.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. Why would she be uncomfortable answering that question?
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. What if they asked her if she keeps a vibrator in the house?
Should she answer any questions?
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Yeah! YEAH! What if?
Snork.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. And why should anyone tell her how she should feel about a question
Are we the 'feel' police :)
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Oh, I wasn't telling her how to feel. I was wondering why she would feel that way.
Curiosity, and all.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. of course we are
Edited on Fri Jul-23-10 11:04 AM by davidinalameda
:sarcasm:

haven't you noticed poster after poster on this site doing that?

some of these people should worry about what goes on in their own homes for once

it's no one's business if someone keeps guns in their homes or not

how about alcohol? how about cars? how about electrical appliances? how about if the home has gas appliances since carbon monoxide kills people too

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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
42. Your examples sort of fall apart there.
how about cars?

I don't know how they do things in your neck of the woods, but in my area you aren't allowed to take your newborn home from the hospital unless you demonstrate that you have an approved car seat properly installed. Or is that none of the hospital's business, in your view?

how about if the home has gas appliances since carbon monoxide kills people too

My pediatrician asked about our smoke detectors and, later, about our CO detector. Does this strike you as none of her business, as well?

some of these people should worry about what goes on in their own homes for once

Maybe that's true about "some of these people," but it sure as hell should apply to pediatricians, whose job demands that they worry about what goes on in other people's homes.


Tell you what--why don't you give us a list of questions that you deem acceptable for a pediatrician to ask? I'm sure that you have a better idea than they do about how they should perform their patients' risk-assessments.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Last thing I heard...
Vibrators cannot kill or even hurt people...

Just sayin'...

:P

:hi:
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
52. They could if you smacked someone in the head hard enough with one
:evilgrin:
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. That is such a GREAT comparison
:sarcasm:
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. All she had to do was ask, "Why do you need to know?"
Edited on Fri Jul-23-10 10:41 AM by rocktivity
and depending on the answer, proceeded accordingly.

:headbang:
rocktivity
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
29. All the doctor needed to do was explain why he was asking,
Edited on Fri Jul-23-10 11:36 AM by Gormy Cuss
It sounds like both of them blew it.

eta: the doctor doesn't need to know the answer to the question. The parent's hesitation or refusal should have lead the doctor to proceed under the assumption that there were guns in the home. The purpose of asking the question is to discuss the dangers associated with guns where children may have access to them unsupervised, nothing more.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
54. I have seen a number of doctors go way outside their expertise, this is not unique
In my experience is that most who do that are not US born and do not really understand US culture. YMMV.

One particularly time a clearly foreign born physician would not address my wife but only spoke to me when both of us were present. He also seemed very concerned about lesbianism among high school girls, which had nothing to do with the asthmatic attack we were there for. Our letter of complaint was not the first one the hospital had received about him.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. Your doctor wasn't Tom Coburn MD of Oklahoma was he?
I remember reading that highschool lesbianism was a big concern of his.

Oh yeah, I guess he's not foreign. He is very strange though.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. No, various places around the US
I have no problem with foreign born docs or foreign trained docs (US or not). However, you need to treat the entire patient in their environment if you are doing any more than minor stuff. The one that just ignored my wife was a real winner.
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islandmkl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
15. maybe it was future reference in case of billing disputes...
the ped just might want to know what to expect in case he does some creative billing...

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Dogtown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
20. So she *says*....
This plays so badly I don't believe a single word.

I think she was asked a series of statistical questions without any emphasis on a particular question. She responded aggressively rather than hesitantly to the question about firearms. Since she pitched a tantrum in his office, the doctor decided he didn't need the interruption to his business and resigned as her physician.

Her TeaBagger buddies convinced her she could get her fifteen-minutes and/or could possibly sue.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I hadn't considered the TeaBagger angle, but otherwise I agree that your assessment seems reasonable
:thumbsup:
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. It blows me away, what people will go to the media with...and the fact that some editor goes, "RUN
WITH IT!" is even more depressing.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. And what people will react to with knee-jerk indignation, without having the whole story...
even here, on DU.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
48. "even here, on DU."
Au contraire! Especially here on DU.
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
27. What about the physician's "conscience clause" - does not that reich-wing principle apply here?
It's not like he denied her any medical care. She got 30-days notice - far more compassionate than the pharmacists that deny medication to patients.

This teabagger obscenity of a mother is simply trying to protect her right to have her kids show up at the doctor's office with a gunshot?


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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
32. Why go to the statistics?
Edited on Fri Jul-23-10 12:03 PM by Turbineguy
If the Pediatrician can save one child's life by asking such a question, that's the job. What's the problem? It's really no different than a Physician asking how many alcoholic beverages you consume on a daily basis or if you smoke.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
33. The American Academy of Pediatrics considers gun violence a public health issue.
That probably has something to do with why he asked.


http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/p... ;105/4/888
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Sgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
34. From the American Academy of Pediatrics website
Edited on Fri Jul-23-10 12:13 PM by Sgent
AAP Firearms Policy

Because firearm-related injury to children is associated with death and severe morbidity and is a significant public health problem, child health care professionals can and should provide effective leadership in efforts to stem this epidemic. The AAP recognizes the importance of a variety of countermeasures (educational, environmental, engineering, enactment, enforcement, economic incentives, and evaluation) to begin to curb dramatically the number of firearm-related injuries to children. The AAP makes the following recommendations, which reaffirm and expand on the 1992 policy statement71:
1. The AAP affirms that the most effective measure to prevent firearm-related injuries to children and adolescents is the absence of guns from homes and communities.
a) Firearm regulation, to include bans of handguns and assault weapons, is the most effective way to reduce firearm-related injuries.

b) Pediatricians and other child health care professionals are urged to inform parents about the dangers of guns in and outside the home. The AAP recommends that pediatricians incorporate questions about guns into their patient history taking and urge parents who possess guns to remove them, especially handguns, from the home. Loaded firearms and unlocked firearms and ammunition represent a serious danger to children and adolescents. At especially high risk are adolescents who have a history of aggressive and violent behaviors, suicide attempts, or depression.30,68,71
2. The AAP urges that guns be subject to safety and design regulations, like other consumer products, as well as tracing.
a) The AAP supports efforts to reduce the destructive power of handguns and handgun ammunition via regulation of the manufacture and importation of classes of guns. Engineering efforts (eg, personalized safety mechanisms and trigger locks) are of unproved benefit and need further study. (Trigger locks, lock boxes, and other safe storage legislation are encouraged by the AAP, until guns are fully removed from the environment of children.) Other such measures aimed at regulating access of guns should include legislative actions, such as mandatory waiting periods and/or background checks.
3. The AAP urges the development of quality, violence-free programming and constructive dialogue among child health and education advocates, the Federal Communications Commission, and the television and motion picture industries, as well as toy, video game, and other software manufactures and designers, in an effort to reduce the romanticization of guns in the popular media.

4. The AAP supports the evaluation of firearm injury prevention and intervention strategies such as conflict resolution, alternatives to violence, storage techniques (eg, trigger locks, lock boxes, and gun safes), and educational programs for children and adolescents.72

5. The AAP urges that a coordinated, comprehensive, national surveillance data system be maintained by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention as well as the National Center for Health Statistics.

6. The AAP supports the education of physicians and other professionals interested in understanding the effects of firearms and how to reduce the morbidity and mortality associated with their use. Organizations such as the Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan may work with the AAP and individual chapters to foster an advocacy network to protect children from injury and death from firearms.

--------------------------------

I don't agree with their entire firearms policy, but they generally are a good organization who does a good job with evidence based recommendations. At a bare minimum I think we can say the doctor in question was acting inside of his professional guidelines.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. I would have said "Yes, my guns are kept secure" and then
I would have told him / her I did not want to hear any more of his AAP anti-gun propaganda. And made sure and use that exact word "propaganda".
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. It would be much better to counter with pro-gun propaganda.
And make sure that you use that exact word "propaganda."
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. "Firearm regulation, to include bans of handguns"
Doesn't matter if it is the most effective; it is Unconstitutional.

Kinda like saying the most effective way to reduce the number of abortions is to ban them.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. Here's to the unConstitutionality of banning firearms
:toast:

Looks like a few key provisions of FOPA will be the next to go.
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Fla_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
35. "Hell no, Doc....
"Hell no, Doc... I'm running a meth lab in my home, and can't have an accidental firearm discharge setting off the ether. Next question?" :evilgrin:
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madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
37. The guy asked about guns but not whether the parents smoked??
:wtf:

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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Where does it say that?
Incidentally, that's also a question that our pediatrician asked.
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madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. The pediatrician for my first child told me Joe Bugel is a douchebag.
Seriously. He seemed more interested in what a simpleton Joe Bugel was, and didn't ask us any questions.

:shrug:

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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
39. How many people would mind if they asked what their religion was and discharged them over it
Edited on Fri Jul-23-10 01:11 PM by Taitertots
If they asked what political ideology they had and discharged them for refusing to answer.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
43. Wow. I AM old.
when my kids were little, the questionnaire consisted of stuff like:

have they ever had chicken pox, measles, whooping cough
were they premature
were they allergic to anything.

and that was about it :)
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gauguin57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
49. My gynecologist's office form always asks whether I always wear seat belts.
Now what seat belts have to do with my hoo-hah, I have no idea. At least "whether there are guns in the home" is a VERY pertinent question when you're dealing with the health of children.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
55. Disgusting!
:puke:
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
56. After she declined to answer he could/should have said:
"Well, ma'am, just to keep you informed the APA believes unsecured firearms in the home pose a significant threat to minor children. If you do keep firearms in the family home we strongly encourage you to review your family's practices on keeping firearms safely stored. Now then, how do you rate your family's sodium intake?"

Because no matter how she answered he is/should be powerless to impose his personal preferences on her but he could still offer her sensible information.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
58. Family and pediatrician tangle over question
Among inquiries about babys health was Do you keep a gun in the house?
By Fred Hiers
Staff writer
Published: Friday, July 23, 2010 at 6:31 p.m.
Last Modified: Friday, July 23, 2010 at 6:33 p.m.

... He said he asks such questions of all his patients because if there are guns in a home with children, he advices that parents lock them away so children dont hurt themselves ...

He said that more than half the families he treats have guns.

Okonkwo said that during the summer, he asks parents the same kinds of questions about whether they have pools at their homes and gives advice about keeping them safe so children dont wander in and drown ...

He said he would stop being a childs doctor if the parents also refused to give information about whether they had a pool or smoked in the house ...

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100723/NEWS/100729867/14...
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
59. They each have the right to decide whether they want to continue
a Dr/Patient relationship. Sounds like this one is over. Find another Dr. and move on.
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
62. My two cents...
Doctors should NOT ask questions like that.

They SHOULD have a print out with helpful information that covers a range of issues, such as:

1) Gun safety and gun locks; locked area for medicines
2) Car seats/safety belts, electronic car windows; Danger of death due to leaving a child in a hot/cold car
3) Household chemicals, electrical outlets, stairs, swimming pools, cribs, lead tainted toys, choking due to small objects, suffocation due to plastic, strangulation due to mini-blind cords
ETC
ETC
ETC

I think it would be appropriate to ask the person to sign (or initial) a form stating that the doctor/office gave the person the information. Just to put into the records so that the office could keep track of who they have given out the info to.








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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Why shouldn't they ask? n/t
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. The question is "Why should they ask?", it's none of their business. n/t
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Public health and safety is their business.
Guns in the home are a public safety issue.
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Wrong.
The job of a physician is to take care of a patients physical & mental health MEDICALLY.
Physicians have NO RIGHT to know what possessions you have in your PRIVATE HOME.
If a problem has been 'reported' then it is the job of Child Protective Services to investigate/ask questions.

A doctor that asks someone if they have a gun in their home and then refuses to threat that person/family when they decline to answer the question has crossed the line.

The doctor should be reported, investigated, and reprimanded.




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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #76
80. Seriously?
The job of a physician is to take care of a patients physical & mental health MEDICALLY.

So if a doctor identifies--or might reasonably be able to identify--a credible but not-yet-realized threat to the physical or mental health of a child, you're saying that the doctor has no right to take action to mitigate that threat?

The doctor should be reported, investigated, and reprimanded.

I'd hate to see how you react when the doctor forgets to give you a lollipop at the end of the exam.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
67. The same reason we take our shoes and belts off at the TSA Airport Checkpoint..
Edited on Fri Jul-23-10 09:14 PM by lib2DaBone
..The same reason we all have to be x-rayed and have our genitals exposed and flashlights stuck up our ass...

Because some asshole somewhere did something...? Now we all pay.. because it's common sense of the "least common denominator."

Plus.. it's profitable for the MIC.
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
74. And of course some people are cheering this.
Weird. I wonder if the same people cheered that doctor that said he wouldn't treat anyone that voted for Obama?
Thanks to the search function, we don't need a magic 8 ball to tell us the answer is a resounding "No".

More of the "It's ok if someone I agree with does it!" from moral relativists.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Again, it's a good thing that we've heard both sides of the story, and not just the woman's version
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-10 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Well it isn't like any of you needed both sides of the story
Edited on Fri Jul-23-10 10:49 PM by JoeyT
to decide she was a crazy teabagger that just thought the evil librul doctor was going to take her guns.

Sounds like she didn't think it was any of his business. And I agree with her. It isn't.
People that have kids and guns should be required to have trigger locks and take safety courses and all that good stuff by the government, not nosy pediatricians. Actually I think everyone should have to take courses and own trigger locks, not just people with kids.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #77
81. Um, think about what you wrote.
First off, I don't see the post in which someone suggested that she thought "the evil librul doctor was going to take her guns." Maybe I just missed it in the shuffle, or maybe I've forgotten it because it's late. Help me out here.

Well it isn't like any of you needed both sides of the story

Are you kidding?!? Since she ran to the media about this, it's entirely appropriate to judge her account of it based on her account of it.

We're forming opinions about the side of the story that we've heard. You (and others) are forming opinions about the side that you haven't heard, based solely on the side that you have heard.

:wtf:
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. Wasn't hard to find
Edited on Sat Jul-24-10 02:28 AM by JoeyT
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I'm not sure how you missed it, since you responded to it and called it "reasonable" to claim she's a teabagger because she didn't think it was any of a doctor's business which of her constitutionally protected rights she chooses to exercise how do you reason that into being a teabagger?

Apparently it's "reasonable" to pull how it went down and her exact motivation for complaining directly from ones ass.

If he'd asked her what religion she was and she'd refused to answer would people still insist she was a teabagger? What about if he'd asked if she'd like to quarter troops in her home?
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-10 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. I don't see where anyone suggested that the "evil librul doctor was going to take her guns"
Perhaps you could post that part again for me.

If he'd asked her what religion she was and she'd refused to answer would people still insist she was a teabagger?

Well, that's just a dumb question, and I hope that you realize it. It seems that the kneejerk outrage contingent has decided that the doctor's sole motivation for asking about the guns was to violate her privacy, and for some reason that same contingent refuses to consider that maybe just maybe the doctor was actually following established guidelines in compiling a patient history. After all, why in the world would the doctor want to ask about basic home safety while examining a child? The next thing you know, the doctor will ask if the child has normal bowel movements. Outrageous!

You and your ilk can howl about the intrusiveness of the question if you want, but the fact is that doctors are in the business of asking questions that--in other contexts--would be a violation of privacy. I mean, if a guy on a subway asked about your prostate, you'd probably find that a bit untoward. But if your physician asks that question in a medical context, then presumably you can suppress your paranoia long enough to realize that he's assessing a patient's history.

It's the same here. The doctor is asking a reasonable question in a reasonable context, and the patient for some reason chose to run to the media to spread the word. That choice alone makes me wonder what's going on here.

What about if he'd asked if she'd like to quarter troops in her home?

Wow. And I thought that the first question was dumb.


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