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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:06 PM
Original message
Trickle down Economics
Edited on Thu Jul-22-10 08:27 PM by nadinbrzezinski
Trickle-down economics
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Critics often point to a decrease in tax revenue as an effect of Supply-side or trickle-down economics.<1>

"Trickle-down economics" and "trickle-down theory" are terms of political rhetoric that refer to the policy of providing across the board tax cuts or benefits to businesses, such as tax breaks, in the belief that this will indirectly benefit the broad population. The term has been attributed to humorist Will Rogers, who said during the Great Depression that "money was all appropriated for the top in hopes that it would trickle down to the needy."<2>

Proponents of these policies claim that if the top income earners invest more into the business infrastructure and equity markets, it will in turn lead to more goods at lower prices, and create more jobs for middle and lower class individuals. Proponents argue economic growth flows down from the top to the bottom, indirectly benefiting those who do not directly benefit from the policy changes. However, others have argued that "trickle-down" policies generally do not work,<3> and that the trickle-down effect might be very slim.<4>

Today "trickle-down economics" is most closely identified with the economic policies known as Reaganomics or supply-side economics. Originally, there was a great deal of support for tax reform; there was a dual problem that loopholes and tax shelters create a bureaucracy (private sector and public sector) and that relevant taxes are thus evaded. During Ronald Reagan's presidency, the Democratic controlled House, at the urging of President Reagan, cut the marginal tax rate on the highest-income tax bracket from 70% to 28%.<5><6>

A major feature of these policies was the reduction of tax rates on capital gains, corporate income, and higher individual incomes, along with the reduction or elimination of various excise taxes. David Stockman, who as Reagan's budget director championed these cuts but then became skeptical of them, told journalist William Greider that the term "supply-side economics" was used to promote a trickle-down idea.<7>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics

With no further comment... but this is so basic it is not even funny.

Added as requested...

The paradox of thrift (or paradox of saving) is a paradox of economics, popularized by John Maynard Keynes, though it had been stated as early as 1714 in The Fable of the Bees,<1> and similar sentiments date to antiquity.<2> The paradox states that if everyone tries to save more money during times of recession, then aggregate demand will fall and will in turn lower total savings in the population because of the decrease in consumption and economic growth. The paradox is, narrowly speaking, that total savings may fall even when individual savings attempt to rise, and, broadly speaking, that increases in savings may be harmful to an economy.<3> Both the narrow and broad claims are paradoxical within the assumption underlying the fallacy of composition, namely that what is true of the parts must be true of the whole. The narrow claim transparently contradicts this assumption, and the broad one does so by implication, because while individual thrift is generally averred to be good for the economy, the paradox of thrift holds that collective thrift may be bad for the economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_thrift
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. You seem to be under the delusion that words mean things. Pretty fascist of you, really...
;)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I know those delusions
But hey, this is like when Right Wingers bandy around the term COMMUNIST.

Have you ever asked a real RW to define it? I have... hilarity ensues.

IT came to the point that I carried, for a while, a standard dictionary of political science.

By the way... Authoritarian is more to my liking...

:hi:
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. It's right there in the RW dictionary:
"Communist noun. 1. Stuff I don't like. 2. Stuff that Rush says is bad. 3. Things that Democrats say."

:)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. RLOL
Thanks for the laugh.
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ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Trickle-down should have been abandoned in 1988.
But it was such a money maker for Bush I and his constituency. This utterly stupid economic plan reversed 190 years of established progress.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. No doubt. But not all we do in the economy
is part of it. And that was the point.

Oh and name used by Senior in 1980 still applies... voodoo economics... it has created a few undead economies, if you ask me.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. nadin, perhaps add this to OP
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Done
also known as the Keynsean Trap... but that is far more obscure.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. +1, n/t
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. And across the globe the disparities between rich and poor grew
and so did unemployment and outsourcing.

Trickle down failed big time. Bury it!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. The problem is the number of people misusing the term
and we need to be careful about using words correctly, as they have meaning.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. This sounds like a call-out from another thread.
Edited on Thu Jul-22-10 08:50 PM by LAGC
I guess it doesn't matter how the rich spend their money, it's more important how they get/keep it, eh?

Is that the moral of the story?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. It is a definition of a term
which is being misused, regularly.

It is, albeit not liked, an attempt at education.

LANGUAGE, that is WORDS, have meaning.

By the way... you still think that they are keeping whatever money they are injecting into the local economy? This is what is known as a standard economic exchange. The same kind you and I engage in when we take our cars for service. Or are you engaging in trickle down? I certainly am not.

Now want to speak trickle down, let's talk about 15% marginal tax rates, which should be raised to 70%... that is what the theory is about... lowering marginal tax rates.

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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. so when is someone going to pee some money down on me?
waiting. waiting. waiting. still bone dry. waiting. waiting. waiting...
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AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. When a millionaire becomes a billionaire you get a penny, that's trickle down.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Actually you don't
if you got a penny, then it would work, badly, but it would work.

Trickle down, using the tax rates, is a full transfer of wealth, upwards.

Here is the rub... proven. If I spend 15 % in tax rates... I will take my money and park it. If I spend 70% in tax rates, I will reinvest my money to hide it.

Evidence for this, very simplified... the 1950s when that marginal tax rate was 90%, versus today when it is 15%.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. oh fer chrissake
my fault. If I'd looked at the originator of this thread, I wouldn't have wasted my time posting my joke. :eyes: back onto ignore you go. no time or energy for attention-whores.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Oh thank you
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. When trickle down, which has to do with TAX rates
not regular economic activity, such as buying and selling of goods, is repealed. See the 1950s. Marginal Tax Rates were 90%... I'll be nice, no loopholes, 70%.

There are a couple other reforms needed, such as a real industrial policy... but if you think spending money for services is trickle down, then you and I engage in it every time we take the car for service, or when we buy coffee at a coffee shop. We don't, that's the point.

Words have meaning.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I don't think tinkledown is spending money for services...
I was around for Reaganomics. I know exactly what tinkle down means. Cut taxes for the poor, overburdened special people who are super-wealthy and some day some of their money will be used to create shit jobs for peons so we get some pennies peed onto us.

I simply want to know when some of that piss-down economics is going to reach me here at the bottom. No more; no less.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Why you and I have to start, if you haven't done such yet,
putting pressure on DC to raise those rates...

I am just going, cut taxes... ok how much more? At 15% marginal they are near the bottom, if not bottom. The theory don't work and it is time people in policy positions jettison it.

On this though, some of these folks have the masses convinced. As I like to say, hoodwinked. Oh and we are STILL in the middle of it.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. Does this OP have a point? If so, it is unclear.
You pasted a Wikipedia definition of a well-known concept and add nothing except a vague comment suggesting that there are so many dummies on DU that don't get it as well as you do.

Aside from continuing to cast yourself in the comfortable and comforting role as mentor and school marm, what is the point of this OP?

Is it Wiki cut-and-paste day? If so, I better get started! It looks like I'm late!
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
21. Horse and Sparrow Economics...
In other words, the theory is that if you feed all the oats to the horse, some of those oats will come out the other end of the horse and feed the sparrows.

In a nutshell, it's the GOP serving us a platter of shit and telling us it's chocolate...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Yes, a more colorful way to put it
but I posted this because a few people are misusing the term and confusing regular economic activity with this piece of crap.

I like it though... I might, with your permission of course, reuse it.

:hi:
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. The term "Horse And Sparrow" dates back to the Great Depression.
Assclowns like Hoover and Harding were using "trickle-down" economics to shit on the middle class, and that's what they dubbed it. I'm far from the first to use this term.

:hi:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-10 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I knew about Hoover
by the way, here is one for you, the concept goes all the way back to... the Grant Administration... the 1870s were great too, if you love Depressions that is.

But I did not know the term went to the Great Depression. Why I love DU!

Thanks.
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