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I'll make a deal with all the Obama defenders on the DADT survey.

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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:15 PM
Original message
I'll make a deal with all the Obama defenders on the DADT survey.
He is the Commander in Chief. Whatever happens in the military, or because of the military is his responsibility. He must renounce this survey for the bigoted hatchet job on gay people that it is.

If by Close of Business on Monday, July 12th, he has not renounced this bullshit survey, then don't come to me and tell me he's just "playing chess" or "dancing nuance" or whatever excuse you've come up with this week.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. An interesting proposition.
I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. I doubt it too, but since I made the pledge I'll have to hold my breath until Monday.
I can deal until then. :hi:
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. actions tell the truth. the survey was an action. his words mean nothing without action to match nt
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. the new retort for this sort of comment from the "defenders" is
Edited on Sat Jul-10-10 09:30 PM by jonnyblitz
"BUT I THOUGHT YOU WANTED OBAMA TO USE THE BULLY PULPIT !!11"

No we want BULLY PULPIT FOLLOWED BY ACTION which one would think would be obvious, but i guess not to "some".
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. True!
And I should amend that pledge, that he should drop the survey from consideration or urge congress to repeal DADT before the August Recess. It would be the honorable thing to do.

And a snowball's chance of it happening in July.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
45. "Actions tell the truth"? What? So the invasion of Iraq was action, was it the truth?
And there is a huge difference between a placating action and a meaningful action.

Not sure what your point was here but I hope you are not defending the Pres on his lack of action on DADT.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. Think I missed something . . . what survey?
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:45 PM
Original message
Here
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KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. the one Obama had nothing to do with creating.
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KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Did any of you bother to take a look at the preliminary results of the survey?
Its in the article I posted from DKOS. Overwhelming support for GLBT people.

I would think you would find time in the angergest to be happy about that.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:53 PM
Original message
Here's a link...
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. IMO the survey is being used as a ruse to keep DADT. It's an easy way out,
survey says... soldiers will be unhappy... I might be wrong, hope I am, but I'm not really optimistic anymore, the BS is so thick in everything. I guess the next step is to go back and do surveys on civil rights from the 60's. Maybe the people don't want civil rights... I'm so tired of the BS.

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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Pentagon: Sorry, soldiers say no. Congress: Sorry, we tried. Obama: Yes, we can!
And nothing changes.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. There you go again Mr. Negative!1 come on, be chirpy, stick
Edited on Sat Jul-10-10 10:14 PM by jonnyblitz
your head in the sand and make believe there is no war or oil spill or financial crisis or massive unemployment! EVERYTHING IS FINE!!!! :silly: be a good little brightsided new age woo!!!

seriously these "why are you always negative" clowns need to read Barbara Enrenreichs book "Brightsided, How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America". In my view "why are you always negative" is yet another variation of a STFU post.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I have that audio book. Listened to it twice!
It's brilliant. I've been waiting for years for Tony Robbins to be run over by a 10 ton truck. I thought I was alone in seeing the empty void that is "Positive Thinking". :hug:
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #26
88. my mother got sucked into that positive thinking crap. they told
her that it was her fault she got breast cancer because she was "negative". :puke:
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #88
94. I think the worst My Mom was in was that Men/Mars Women/Venus thing.
I came over one time and her stack of Aries & Aphrodite books were stacked 4 ft high. She still got a divorce, because darling husband never went to a shrink to get anger pills! A lot of help those books did her, when he refused to read them! :eyes:

My cousin died of BC. I know she was very involved in the "movement" with pink magnets all over her car, and outings with her friends, but I don't know if she got caught up in the blame game.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. my mother went right down the woo checkoff list and she gets
books like "the secret" and "celestine prophecy" and she gets so pissed at me when i make fun of them. at least she survived and hasn't relapsed and it's been since 1992.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. I got swarmed at work when I called The Secret "crap".
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 03:41 AM by Touchdown
5 women who I guess were in the same cul... err... book club glared at me, grabbed their staplers and wrist guards. I ran away!

Congrats on your Mom. BTW. :hi:
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Female soldiers are being raped by heterosexuals and brass covers for rapists
I want THAT little unhappiness taken care of. The gays are not raping anybody. It's some of the heterosexuals who are the real problem. The military needs to get their house in order and go after the real problems they have in the ranks. Stop using the gay population for scape goats and diversions.

I am tired of the BS too, RKP5637. We lose good military personnel who have done nothing wrong and keep the rapists? The brass needs to be outed for their part in denying rights innocent soldiers some while protecting some who are criminals.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. I always expect the worst on LGBT issues. nt
Edited on Sat Jul-10-10 10:04 PM by jonnyblitz
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. +1
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Safetykitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
70. I agree. It's a win-win for administration on this.
If they do the "we had no idea" that the survey was going to be worded like this, they come across as inept.

But if they stick by it, it gives them oodles of cover that can be spun just as you said.
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KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. Who is defending the survey?
Certainly not me. I've said in many posts that its a shitty, offensive thing. What I resist is the idea that Obama is responsible for it, which is demonstrably not.

Please reframe your erroneous OP.
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #9
53. Nobody has suggested that Obama wrote the survey...
but he is the CiC which means he IS responsible for it and it means that failure to renounce it in a timely manner is tacit approval of it in the fact. Minimally, he was not aware of its' content until it was leaked but even at that, it's such a hack-job blatant attempt to undermine his ability to carry out his stated action that failure to renounce it on his part would represent acquiescence to the subversion of his authority.

Someone else said they'd hold off on criticism on this until July 12 which seems like a reasonable course of time for the president to get around to commenting on the push-poll nature of the survey if not the offensiveness of its' wording...if he doesn't he deserves every bit of the flack he catches. It's clearly written to elicit a specific response to provide political cover to renege on a campaign promise.

Remind me, how many is he allowed to break before we're allowed to call him on it?

You might want to drop the snark and reframe your erroneous attitude.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
74. Who said he wrote it or was responsible for it? The question
in the OP is what is he going to do about it? Is he going to ignore it and do the right thing, or use it so that he can stall while he 'looks into it further' or whatever?

If he ignores, that would be great. But your question has nothing to do with the OP.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
104. Erroneous OP reframed:
Where's OBAMA's outrage that he was kept in the dark on the DADT survey?
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R
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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. Will Pres. Obama run in 2012?

IMO, no.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
15. Exactly.
Very well said indeed, and a point I have made in other threads. What he does next is the whole of it all.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
16. I haven't seen any DUer defend the survey
I've seen people ask that the questions in the survey not be distorted - and make the obvious statement that it isn't Obama's survey. If he defends it himself, then you can rip him a new one. He hasn't that I've seen.
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KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Outrage is more fun than facts.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #18
52. +1...nt
Sid
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
79. Why was this survey needed? Do you ask for an opinion about
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 02:37 AM by sabrina 1
people's rights or do you just do the right thing? Isn't it pretty obvious what is the right thing to do? Should people NOT have been outraged during the civil rights era? What would have happened if the decision to pass the Civil Rights Bill had been based on a survey?

Your disdain for outrage is a little disturbing. Some things actually are outrageous, one of them being when a segment of the population is being denied their civil rights.

Excuse me if I remain outraged as long as some people are being denied their rights, and I can assure you as someone who has experienced this outrage (which you apparently have not or you would never have made that statement) that is NOT fun.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
109. Ignorance is more comfortable than reality.
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Born_A_Truman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Neither have I ...
:hi:
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. See post #17
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
41. I really don't know that person
I haven't known them to be a strident Obama supporter, or any kind of Obama supporter for that matter. I could be wrong.

I would really want to know if any of the BOG is defending this survey itself. It's a different thing to say, wait a minute, Obama didn't write this. But most of the questions in here are just horrific and shouldn't be defended in any way.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. and I believe
your opinion on this is honest, clear eyed and insightful.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Uh, no. The offer as is stands. It's his military, so he should denounce the survey.
Keeping quiet on this is not an honorable thing to do. DUers are trying to have it both ways. To feign shock at the survey, while sycophantically washing Obama's balls of any incriminating residue. He commissioned this survey as part of the compromise on DADT he made with the Pentagon and Congress. Whether he wrote it, saw how it was worded, or even knows what's in it is irrelevant. It's his. He owns it, and it's up to him to denounce it.

"If he defends it, then you can..." What a ridiculous and insulting thing to say. It's too late to keep quiet. He needs to denounce it as fast as he did that reverend who's name is slipping past me. I'll rip him if I see reason to rip him. I do not need or seek your approval to do so!
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I said that he should denounce the survey
And if he doesn't, or defends it, you can rip him a new one.

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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Oh' ... Ok!
:hug:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. I'm appalled and shocked at this survey
I think most Obama supporters are. I believed the concept of the survey would be to delve into legal issues, like what would constitute job harrassment or discrimination, things like that.

Would you shop at the commissary if there was someone gay there? It's necessary to ask that?? Or, would you stop going to the officers club if you thought someone there was gay? You would?? Well, the officers club just got a lot snazzier then.

The whole thing was stomach-churning. I honestly could not believe anybody even thought to put those questions to paper, let alone that they were approved and by a number of people.

UnBeLievable.

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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. I'm getting touchy on this thing.
As a gay man and a former soldier who had to hide in fear of his job, his approval and sometimes his complete set of teeth or even life when in the barracks, I'm a little too interested in seeing this issue completely gone. I don't want any other kids to go through that crap.

So please forgive the kneejerkiness in me.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. I really appreciate your solid, direct, uncompromising opposition
to this travesty of a survey.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. Oh yes, they have
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
55. Failure to rebut it is defense by omission.
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 12:15 AM by Chan790
It's such a blatant effort to undermine his position that failing to address the survey's inherent-bias would be beyond the pale.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. It was leaked yesterday afternoon
You know, can he have one week-end with his family? I can't remember the last week-end he had absolutely nothing on his agenda.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. eek
"can he have one week-end with his family?"

(Probably not the most sensitive question to ask in this thread, when we're discussing deployed soldiers who can't be with their families at all - or in some cases even acknowledge that their partners exist.)
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. Do you have week-ends with your family?
Do you suppose 99% of DU does? Nope, everybody isn't in a war zone, that's a fact.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. as a veteran it just rubs me the wrong way
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 12:41 AM by noamnety
when a CIC (or his supporters) talks about how little time he has with his family or how very difficult it is being a war president. I wanted to punch Bush in the face when he spouted off about the war being harder on him than anyone else.

I'm just saying when the topic under discussion is soldiers being deployed half way around the world in a combat zone with families who don't know if they'll ever see each other alive again, and in particular the soldiers under discussion aren't even allowed to be with their partners and if they do come home in a coffin the military won't even acknowledge their partner at the funeral ... it just strikes me as extremely poor form to choose that time to make a comment directing people's empathy instead toward Obama who gets to live with his wife and children but perhaps would like more leisure time with them on weekends.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #61
68. The topic is response to a survey
Not a war emergency.

And I'll tell you what rubs me the wrong way, the "as a veteran" line. Because you've got no more right to make a complaint than any other citizen.

I'm sure people suffering in the gulf wish the President could devote all his time to them.

And I'm sure Detroit unemployed wish the same. And flood victims. And Haitians. And the sick and crippled and dying.

I literally don't remember the last time I saw a weekend where the President had NO official duties.

So yeah, I'll say a response to the survey can wait until Monday.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. There are a lot of soldiers who get no weekends off.
I stand by my statement that it's insensitive for the soldiers in a war zone to be asked to please consider how unfair it is that their rear echelon commander hasn't had a full weekend off in a while.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #68
84. If you want free weekends you don't run for President of the U.S.
You agree when you accept the job that there will be issues of vital importance that won't wait until Monday for you to get around to them. That is why many people don't want the job.

I doubt Obama himself would try to excuse not addressing an important issue because he needs to spend the weekend with his family. So please, you are not helping him at all by assuming that he is taking the weekend off to be with his family and that is why he has not addressed this survey, and I'm sure he'd tell you that himself if he were here.

Funny too that you think a veteran doesn't have the right to view issues directly concerning the military differently than anyone else. You may think that, but the fact is that veterans DO view military matters very differently than the rest of us. Not much you can do about that. Their experiences are way different so it's natural that this would be the case.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #84
114. If there's an emergency, he won't have this weekend off either
Responding to this survey can wait until Monday.

I said veterans have no more right to an opinion on the President's time than someone in the gulf, Haiti, etc.

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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. I didn't mean immediately.
But if we get to the middle of the workweek and he's not even acknowledged the issue I think criticism becomes valid.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. Rip him a new one
I already said that. I would hope by 5:00 Monday, barring any new emergencies. It took me about 3 minutes for my stomach to churn enough to know this was shit. Shouldn't take him much longer.
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #56
126. I can't believe you actually posted that
Somehow the GBLT community should STFU so it doesn't RUIN HIS WEEKEND? Are you serious? Ask yourself if you would have said that about Bush. Be honest with yourself. Then perhaps you will have a light bulb go off and realize how awful what you said really was.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
17. I didn't see it as a hatchet job.
So, maybe that bias isn't actually in the survey, but is coming from somewhere else...

Here's another question from the survey:

" If Dont Ask, Dont Tell is repealed, how, if at all, will your military career plans be affected?
- I will stay longer than I had planned
- I will think about staying longer than I had planned
- I will think about leaving sooner than I had planned
- I will leave sooner than I had planned
- My military career plans would not change
- Don't know "
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Which is another bigoted question
How would you feel if that question were asked about any other minority group?

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Yup, replace it with "Blacks," "Jews," "Catholics," etal
It wouldn't be allowed.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. I think it would be good information to have for training and education.
If, for example, soldiers exhibited a high level of religious or ethnic bigotry, then corrective action could be taken, using actual metrics.

" If Dont Ask, Dont Tell is repealed and you are working with a Service member in your immediate unit who has said he or she is gay or lesbian, how would that affect your own ability to fulfill your mission during combat?
- Very positively
- Positively
- Equally as positively as negatively
- Negatively
- Very negatively
- No effect
- Dont know or does not apply"

Note that 6 out of the 8 possible answers equate to "This not actually a problem", which is characteristic of push-polling.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. How will your career be affected?
You think it should matter if someone is going to quit because there are minorities they don't like in the service?

Or that they will feel bad?

Do they ask them how they will feel about the guts of a 3 month old baby being splattered all over the road before they send them into war? Because, you know, they could take corrective action, using actual metrics... like not having anymore wars. Yeah, that'll happen.

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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. You know why that career question is in there, right?
There was a right-wing talking point that people would leave the service in droves. The questions involved (there were several) are asking if this is actually true, or complete bullshit.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. It Does Not Matter
We shouldn't want a soldier who would leave anyway. Good. Get them gone.

They said the same thing when they had to make room for women. Guess what. Everybody learned how to serve together.

It's not acceptable to be asking these kinds of questions in this day and age. It's bigoted, pure and simple.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Asking someone if they're bigoted.... is bigoted?
Are there other questions that people shouldn't be allowed to ask, and where can I find the list of opinions people aren't allowed to survey?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Why do we need a $4 million survey of bigots?
Are we going to base the decision to repeal DADT on the opinion of bigots? Are they saying they need to know how many bigots are in the military before they decide what policy to implement? Or are they saying they need to accommodate the bigots? Where are the questions designed to guarantee a safe and equal workplace for gay soldiers?

Do you socialize with your unit? Who the fuck cares. Some do, some don't. That's not news. Socializing has never made any difference in whether a military unit succeeds at its mission. Ever. It's insulting to imply that anybody is such a social pariah that the military has to worry about them going to a bbq.

You're not allowed to survey men about serving with women with smelly pussies either, or how embarrassing it will be to go to a bbq with her. Does that make it clear to you?
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. You're equating being "homosexulal/"lesbian" with "smelly pussies"?
If you think those are bad words, I don't know how to help you.

The cost works out to 10 bucks a soldier, and they *do* need to figure out how to (if there's a reason to) implement changes in policy, training, and administration.

"Where are the questions designed to guarantee a safe and equal workplace for gay soldiers? "

Take the actual test yourself. The whole thing, not just whatever cherry-picked questions are being waved about to claim bias. You'll find that the questionnaire covers a large variety of hypothetical workplace issues.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. That was the implication in the survey
That soldiers would find gays so offensive they would be unable to perform their jobs, wouldn't be able to even shop for food, and would head for the doors in droves.

They MAY need to implement changes in policy, training, and administration. THIS survey isn't going to do a thing to help them define what any of that is. I DID read that entire survey, from start to finish. That is why I say there is nothing useful in it.

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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #49
91. You didn't answer the question she asked.
Should the decision be made based on bigots?
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #91
102. I don't think the decision made will be based on bigotry.
The decision has already been made.

Implementing the decision, in the best way possible, is the challenge. For that, you need data, not anecdotes.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #102
110. What does that even mean?
What are the various options on implementation. Phase-in or lottery on who gets to come out and when? By division?

This implementation logic escapes me. You end DADT, and order the service members to act accordingly or they get a court martial. This is the military. They follow orders. You don't have to study how to implement.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #110
118. This is the military. You can't just issue a directive and everything changes.
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 04:32 PM by boppers
It's a massive bureaucracy where absolutely nothing is simple. Here's how much it took for an earlier implementation of people *already* openly serving:

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collecti...

8 freaking years, studies, commissions, plans, insubordinate officers, resistance in the forces, etc.


edit: it was 8 years, not 10.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #102
117. What data or anecdotes are needed to correct a wrong that
a majority of Americans agree on now? The important data is that American citizens who have served their country in the military are being driven out because of ignorance. There is absolutely no logical reason to consider data that comes from ignorant bigots that I can think of. I would imagine that all intelligent, fair-minded Americans would simply say 'get it done, and it's overdue'. Who else's opinion do we need?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #49
106. The poster wasn't equating that, the fucking SURVEY is
My God, it is a blatant and bigoted push poll.

This pretzel-tying must have sprained your back. Take some Advil and put some ice on it.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #106
121. I agree it's a push poll. Probably not the same way you see it, though.
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 04:48 PM by boppers
I was rather surprised to see the way they set up the questions and answers, they put in more "good, don't care, makes no difference, I'd learn to deal with it by doing xyz" kind of answers than "do not want" answers...

...*AND* they put all the "hey, ending DADT is not a big deal" answers as the first answers available...

...*AND* they phrased many of the "hey, I have a problem with this" answers in such a way as to ding the personal pride of the person taking the test, compelling them to swallow their opinions and talk it out with their fellow soldiers, or seek out a superior for guidance...

....which means that the net effect is likely to be that the survey will show massive, overwhelming, acceptance (or indifference), to ending DADT.

Have you taken the survey and read all the questions?

edit: missing word
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #35
105. You do not base a group's civil rights on responses from a skewed survey!
Your defense of this survey, which IS what you're doing, is appalling.

And, you are quite aware that such a survey, whether it be about Blacks, Jews, Women, etal, would not be enlightening, or good for research, but would be a bigoted push-poll, and would NEVER be allowed, like this one. Except for maybe one on Women, since they are often treated like shit, too.

You really should be be defending this POS "survey."
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #105
123. Uhm, no. The military has been doing this for many years.
Here's a pile of research on race relations in the military:
http://tinyurl.com/38dnrrt

Are you saying the the military is not doing the research that the DoD search page says it's doing?

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. Ummm.... no...... they don't
I'm saying your response doesn't match what I said. Big Surpeise.

You really like defending this fucked up survey.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. My response was to this:
"And, you are quite aware that such a survey, whether it be about Blacks, Jews, Women, etal, would not be enlightening, or good for research, but would be a bigoted push-poll, and would NEVER be allowed, like this one."

I then demonstrated how it was allowed, and used for research, by pointing you to a place where you could find it.

As to your contention that an opinion survey would determine civil rights, do you have evidence that this particular survey of opinions is going to determine civil rights, or is that a synthesis of your own making?
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
42. Of course you didn't. n/t
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
86. You don't think that is a bigoted question?
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 02:56 AM by sabrina 1
" If Blacks are integrated with Whites in the military, how, if at all, will your military career plans be affected?

- I will stay longer than I had planned
- I will think about staying longer than I had planned
- I will think about leaving sooner than I had planned
- I will leave sooner than I had planned
- My military career plans would not change
- Don't know "
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #86
103. Asking a question about personal bigotry is not institutional bigotry per se.
Lets take a look at the possible answers:

- I will stay longer than I had planned (Cool, I like this)
- I will think about staying longer than I had planned (Cool, I like this)
- I will think about leaving sooner than I had planned (Not sure, have to think about it)
- I will leave sooner than I had planned (I'm a bigot)
- My military career plans would not change (don't care)
- Don't know (don't care enough to have a random opinion)

Out of six responses, only two are open to the bigots. This is institutional push polling at its finest, where they're saying "get with the program, or be in the 33%, and get out". They could have gone with four:
- I will stay longer than I had planned (Cool, I like this)
- I will think about staying longer than I had planned (Cool, I like this)
- My military career plans would not change (don't care)
- Don't know (don't care enough to have a random opinion)

...but that would have been so grossly, obviously, biased as to be a political weapon.

On "black and white" integration, have a gander at this:
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collecti...

It took 8 years, lots of studies, commissions, training changes, cultural changes, and push forward/back to make the change.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
127. Of course you didn't. nt
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
29. And if he DOES renounce the survey by the end of the day on Monday?

Will you come back here and admit that every negative thing you ever assumed about Obama was wrong?

Will you eat crow?



I'm guessing no.... but we'll just wait and see, won't we.


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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I will eat crow on this issue, and this one alone.
Edited on Sat Jul-10-10 10:24 PM by Touchdown
As an olive branch, I will extend significant benefit of the doubt before rushing to judgment in the future. Fair enough?

As far as negative things I believed in the past is concerned. Bush & Cheney are not in jail because "We're moving forward." ... so there's your answer to that. ;)
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. I'll say, yet again, that he listens and corrects mistakes
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #34
69. Good answer.... but I wasn't talking to you, ruggerson

I was talking to the over-the-top OP.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #69
89. So why don't you answer the fucking OP?
Hmmm?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #89
95. Was there a question posed in the OP? n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #95
99. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. Are you going to acknowledge that, or are you going to run away like you thought I would?
:shrug:
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
44. Since you're so certain, why not offer to put your money where your mouth is? n/t
Edited on Sat Jul-10-10 10:58 PM by QC
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KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #29
63. I will be astounded that he responded to some hostage deadline on a webforum.
Which I do not think he even reads.
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haele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
50. I just read the survey; while I think it's basically BS -
Most of the questions on the survey are the basic "what is your military life like, what is the command morale like, and how important is it for you to stay in" type questions the military has asked whenever they think of doing a policy change.
The question "Assume Dont Ask, Dont Tell is repealed. How important, compared with the repeal, would the following factors (Pay, Benefits, Time in Service, Job availability on the outside) be to you in deciding whether to remain in the military?" is quite telling.
It looks more like the Pentagon is searching for a reason to take a "snapshot" of how the leadership and their current policies - and deployments - are affecting troop morale and retention than it is to see what the troops feel like about the repeal of DADT.

Haele
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
51. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #51
62. My, you're certainly sensible tonight.
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 12:53 AM by jgraz
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #51
64. Wow - what an awful and callous reply.
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 01:00 AM by myrna minx
Most of the people I love are gay, lesbian or trans- and I find your response to be rather :puke:
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. What's awful about it? I just thought he had something
big and fleshy in his mouth while he was taking a shower and tried to say "Arugula". :shrug:
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #65
73. i like arugula, actually.
:)
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #64
72. when the first words of a post are; "I'll make a deal with all the Obama defenders"
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 02:13 AM by dionysus
it's already looking for an argument, no matter what issue it is.

in this case, he's setting up a strawman that if obama doesn't make a speech he wants him to make BY MONDAY!!11!, him and his "defenders", are homophobes.

it's worn out.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #72
78. "I'll make a deal with you. If you do this, then I'll...um...and if you don't...I'll..." n/t
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #72
81. ...



Nitpick compensates for his limited fighting ability by pouncing on points that are only marginally relevant to the discussion. For example, if his opponent in a sports forum conflict casually mentioned the Cubs' 4-2 victory in the 1908 World Series, Nitpick would quickly counterattack with something like, "4-2 !? Any moron knows the Cubs won the Series 4-1! Someone so ignorant about baseball history can't possibly know anything about salary caps!" Even if the minor point is conceded by his opponent Nitpick will return to it whenever the battle turns against him. Though weak, Nitpick is very tenacious and will never admit defeat. Nitpick is a close ally of Artful Dodger.


http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/nitpick.ht...




Therapist can be a highly annoying and therefore very effective Warrior. Instead of making a frontal attack, Therapist attempts to shift the focus of the conflict to the combatants' psychological motivations and problems. He will freely speculate about other Warriors' insecurities, personalities and relationships, but he will almost never directly engage the subject of the dispute. CAUTION: Evil Clown, Imposter and Troller often masquerade as Therapist.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. i love that site too, but i'm just giving you my opinion
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #51
93. So you are opposed to the repeal of DADT! Okay!
Could you explain why you as a democrat, which I assume you are, would oppose granting civil rights to gays?
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #93
101. I really shouldn't be defending him, but
He's not here to defend DADT. Judging by his user name, the more drunken sex and orgies for him, the better.

He's just here to poke a stick at me, cause I got a little big headed, which I guess was fun for a while.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #93
115. um, no, i am not opposed to appealing it.
:shrug:
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. Okay, that's good. I guess we'll find out what Obama thinks
and does within the next week or so. It's not a difficult decision as a majority of Americans now support it. The military will follow the law as they are required to do, so I'm very hopeful that this will get done.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
66. don't hold your breath waiting
here's the plan: say you're for something, do some token things you think will make people happy, then behind the scenes let the disrimination and absurdity fester
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #66
75. so you're saying obama is fucking with ppl on this, in reality wanting to screw over the GLBT
community?
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #75
96. well, I don't think he necessarily is actively seeking to screw over GLBT
my sense is, he really wants nothing to do with it
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #75
107. I didn't say this, Skittles did, but I'll answer for me: yes
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 07:08 AM by LostinVA
If either DADT or DOMA are repealed it will be in SPITE of Obama, not because of him.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
67. K & R nt
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
76. What if I come up to you and do that anyways? n/t


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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. well, i'll still run up to you and make fun of oasis, so at least you'll have something to do
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. I'll make a deal with you. If you see the Oasis movie...
http://beatcrave.com/2010-06-18/liam-gallagher-aims-to-...

Actually, it won't matter. Everybody else will see the Oasis movie, and it will be even more critically acclaimed than Magical Mystery Tour or the Beatles cartoon.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #76
82. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #82
87. Backing away slowly...
:yoiks:
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #87
90. Oh' Please! Like I'd want an Oasis fan in my house!
Get real! :P
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. Are those those two feuding brothers from Old America?
:hide:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #92
100. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
108. recommend
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
111. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #111
113. And that is a two way street
The President is opposed to equal rights because of his religion. He says so himself. This is a fact. It is not a fact that any of us who post on DU can 'say whatever you want whenever they want' to other DUers. This is a moderated forum, with rules. Rules that are not made by you, now are they?
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KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #113
119. That is false.
President Obama NEVER said that he is opposed to equal rights because of his religion. He said he is personally in agreement with gay marriage. He also said that as president he would do his best to see that all married people were treated equally by law, no matter who they are.

Attributing incendiary falsehoods to our Democratic president is really a terrible swat at what we all hope to achieve.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
112. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
120. I truly doubt Obama is going to be moved by this hostage demand technique.
"You do this by _________ or I'll ________________"

In fact, it's not even very smart here.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
122. Thanks for the kick, *ignored*
:rofl:
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
128. Any updates on this, Touchdown? n/t
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