The GOP almost destroyed America 2 years ago, now they want to finish the job this Nov.

[MrScorpio]

They need to be stopped.

[asdjrocky]

1. Oh nos!

I'm so afraid!!!!

[sufrommich]

7. What the hell is so funny about what the OP said? nt

[asdjrocky]

27. I don't believe in fear polittics.

Mostly, I find most of what the posters says to be mostly funny most of the time.

[sufrommich]

32. You don't fear Republicans coming back to power? nt

[asdjrocky]

34. Nope.

[KonaKane]

49. Interesting. Do you know what site you are on?

And what the purpose is here?

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tavalon]

88. I've already said I'm voting straight Dem ticket,

but I get where he's coming from. Perhaps, it might just be better to pull the bandage off and see the ick underneath. The repugs are batshit crazy but clearly we didn't get enough of their shit if the Obama administration thinks it's okay to tack to the right. Maybe we need a refresher. That said, I don't want to go there. I already got the t-shirt. I know they're batshit crazy without putting them back on top. I almost said, putting them back in control but even as the minority party, they are controlling most everything just fine. I wish my Democrats would take a lesson in how to be an effective minority party. Which, BTW, they will be soon enough, if they don't consolidate their feces.

[HughMoran]

90. 'cause you hate Democrats

:shrug:

[treestar]

96. Not very realistic. The Republicans still have plenty of support

Don't know where you are getting the idea they can be ignored as irrelevant.

[HughMoran]

107. Republicans = Democrats in your eye?

??

[Arkana]

131. Well, judging by your signature, you won't know either way.

[Bobbie Jo]

12. Rightly so.

Poor attempt at snark, aside.

Can I assume your complaints will be resolved under Republican rule?

As for me, the prospect of this scenario concerns me a great deal.

[no limit]

52. Well we do know his complaits won't be resolved under Democratic rule either

[Bobbie Jo]

60. I like my chances better.

So, no..."we" don't *know* any such thing.

[no limit]

61. Yes, we do know. But ok, how long do you give Obama to atleast take some liberal positions?

A year, 2? I just want to know so when it doesn't happen in that time frame we can look back at this thread and you can then explain to me how I need to keep supporting democrats unconditionally?

[Bobbie Jo]

65. Honestly...

...."explain to me how I need to keep supporting democrats unconditionally?"

Sorry, but if you don't have a basic understanding of the concept by now....no amount of "explaining" is going to help you. Besides, the constant EXPLAIN TO MEEEEE...pissing match is wearing me out.

Carry on.

[no limit]

73. No, I still don't understand why I'm supposed to support a party unconditionally

when the party pisses all over me.

Sorry for not getting it, clearly I wasted you time because you made such great arguments.

[Bobbie Jo]

76. If you can't discern from the experience of Republican rule...

You're just too "high maintenance" to be part of the solution.

[tavalon]

91. Way to influence the discussion

Throw insults. Lather, rinse, repeat. You forgot to mention the pony.

There are good things Obama has done. There are shitty things Obama has done. There are a lot of things he hasn't even touched (and I'm willing to wait and see on those things). Unless you're willing to discuss particulars, you aren't really helpful to the discussion. So, please, talk substance and nuance rather than sloganeering. Otherwise you are just noise and we have more than enough of that.

Obama has fallen short of what I thought he was going to be. Some of that is stuff I projected onto him. My bad. Some of his choices have been jaw droppingly bad (domestic eavesdropping, indefinite detention, Afghanistan) and coming from a Democrat, they were especially horrifying. Some of the stuff he's done has been mired in compromise but may end up being really helpful in the long run. His nominations to the Supreme Court have been magnificent. I was terrified that his track record of appeasing batshit crazy repugs would carry over to those nominations, but I was blessedly wrong.

Look at the last paragraph I wrote. Convince me and the other folks who are frustrated by showing examples. Remind us of the good done by Democrats rather than playing the fear card. Because, otherwise, we are going to think the Democratic strategy is to take us for granted because, after all, where are we going to go? And that is galling. People who are choosing to abstain in the fall are likely doing it because they are furious at being taken for granted. Convince us that we aren't being taken for granted. That's how you need to campaign.

[Bobbie Jo]

102. Here's the thing....

"Look at the last paragraph I wrote. Convince me and the other folks who are frustrated by showing examples....."

This forum has offered a plethora of "examples." That you and "other folks" continually go out of your way to disregard the facts, the discussion has become an exercise in futility. What I'm expressing is my own *frustration*.

"Throw insults. Lather, rinse, repeat. You forgot to mention the pony."

Seems you've missed the poo-flinging coming from the "other folks." Perhaps you don't recognize the effort to stop cowering to the angry mob.


"Convince us that we aren't being taken for granted. That's how you need to campaign."

I stand by my earlier statement....If you REALLY don't get it by now, no amount of hand-holding is going to get you there.

[Raineyb]

97. In all fairness to you. YOU don't really know much.

At least that's what one would conclude based on your posts.

[Bobbie Jo]

101. For example?

Because I know enough to see that you usually don't back up your own bullshit assertions.

[NJmaverick]

120. It's not about fear it's about caring

do you care about our Country?

[BeFree]

2. That IS the message

Plain and simple. They almost destroyed America.

Don't let them out of the cage to roam free and finish us off.

Democrats must unite for the next six months or all that we have worked for will be ruined. Get your shit together, people!!

[no limit]

8. Piss all over the liberal base for 2 years then in the election cycle pull the guilt card on them

love it.

[Skidmore]

9. Can't wait to watch the RW piss all over this so-called "liberal base"

after it claws its way back in with the help of some of its so-called members.

[sufrommich]

10. It's unbelievable. It's like watching people cheer on the

right wing in this country. WTF.

[Skidmore]

15. I think we've reached the unsavory point where

right meets left and in an ugly spot.

[Donnachaidh]

13. so basically let's fearmonger by using the old *lesser of two evils* chestnut

That's so Big Tent... :eyes:

[Skidmore]

19. You know, if the big tent isn't filled with people who do not exactly

agree with you, then the only claim to it is to encourage constructive dialogue and compromise. Otherwise you end up with a whole bunch of separate tents and everyone trying to lay claim to the campfire. Nothing is accomplished when groups on the left and right do not step forward and realize that EVERYONE has a stake in this nation, even people we don't agree with. Sometimes that means only getting part of what you want and living to fight another day.

[no limit]

21. Right, because if you worked your ass off for someone that made you promises

then broke those promises you are supposed to look the other way and keep fighting hoping that the new promises that are made won't get broken again.

If you are that type of person I have a bridge to sell you.

[cliffordu]

30. In the real adult world that's the way shit works.

Bummer.

[no limit]

36. lol real adult world. Well calling liberals thay worked their ass off children is a step up

Better than being called fucking retarded I guess.

[cliffordu]

48. I feel your pain.

I waited 40 years for help for PTSD.

But you didn't hear me snivelling all the time about not being obeyed by politicians of any stripe.

Pretty big leap from me to Rahm......but that's the only tactic you have left.

Pity, really.

And very telling.

[no limit]

51. Very telling? How so? What did my reply tell you exactly?

And I'm glad you finally got help for PTSD. I'm sure all the "children" you are berating had absolutely nothing to do with that.

[cliffordu]

56. No - but we vets did.

Your self importance is really funny.

:rofl:

[no limit]

62. Right, liberals fighting their asses off over the last decade for issues such as PTSD didn't do shit

and you ask us to give you our unconditional support, like I said, good luck in the election.

I would like to know though, what did you find telling about my earlier post. You didn't answer that question.

[WonderGrunion]

68. You've fought your ass off for over a decade and still can't get a liberal President?

Can you elect any pure liberals to national office?

Sounds like you need the Democratic party way more than you're willing to admit.

[no limit]

71. The democratic party has thrown me under the bus time and time again

so I'm good on that, good luck to you guys. Maybe they'll prove me wrong by 2012, until then I'm chillin.

[cliffordu]

82. Well.....

:rofl:

right on.......

[Raineyb]

100. Then it won't matter if liberals vote third party will it?

Since the party doesn't need them. Right?

That doesn't really match the "vote for Dems or the Republicans will get back into power" argument.

[WonderGrunion]

103. My post said nothing about "not needing liberals"

It did say that liberals need the Democratic party more than than the other way around.

[newspeak]

109. I wished you hadn't of said that

For those who are Wellstone, FDR Democrats, it's rather insulting when a group is attempting to change the face of the party to a "new democrat" pro-corporate, over people type of party.

You're words bring a challenge to some whether or not they can still influence a change within their own party or if it is too late.

[HughMoran]

110. Yes, pragmatic politician Paul Wellstone!

<snip>

Russ Feingold likes to wrap himself in the mantle of Paul Wellstone’s legacy. Those of us who admired Paul Wellstone and understood his philosophy find the Feingold/Wellstone comparisons offensive. Wellstone fought for liberal principles and wasn’t afraid to criticize bad policy and bad bills. That’s where the similarities end. Wellstone understood the basic fact that all no votes are equal. He understood that a pragmatic half of a loaf was better than the purity of no loaf at all. As his friend writes:

But to be pragmatic is not a bad thing. It is not the same as rank opportunism. To the contrary, pragmatism is the very essence of a political calling, for it means to make the most of the means available to further the ends of politics. The question always is, what ends? Paul viewed politics as a moral enterprise, grounded in basic convictions about democracy, equality, community, and mutuality. Those convictions guided his career in the Senate and shaped the compromises he made.

We need more of Wellstone’s pragmatism and less of Feingold’s rank opportunism. Maybe then we wouldn’t be facing the defeat of financial reform at the hand of the junior Senator from the state of status quo.

http://bluewavenews.com/2010/06/28/feingold-will-vote-to-protect-wall-st-from-financial-reform/

[newspeak]

113. Yes, Wellstone's pragmatism, accept if it did more harm to the people

He also went against the mining corporations for mine safety-he was for regulating big business. And this is an article-again Wellstone could be pragmatic, but not all of the time. And, after eight years of Little Boots, I'm wondering if he had lived, how pragmatic he'd be today seeing the damage done.

[HughMoran]

119. It's always easeir to espouse & be endearing when looking in the rearview

The present rarely appreciates what it has.

[newspeak]

126. and, we are supposed to learn from the past

Since Reagan, I've seen pro-big business influence government to the point where the present has culminated from those policies. I've lived through the S&L debacle (that we paid for), the junk bond scheme, the enron deregulated "screw customers" and employee move, the wall street "let's gamble on american's misery-mortgage fraud rip off. And now, with all of the wrong moves-thousands of people are dead and wounded (deceptive war), Little Boots and congress raided the treasury as fast as their corporate friends could carry it-so now, it's oh well we're financially in trouble, let's gut education and let's cut the social safety net and depend on these same corporations to provide shitty services to the people while further bilking them.

As safety regulations have been, we've had three tragic mining accidents, and those miners knew, knew the company was cutting corners to make more profit over their lives.

I watched Clinton sign Poppy's NAFTA-GATT treaty, he signed the deform welfare bill or screw the poor (now I wonder how that works when there is even less jobs), Fairness Doctrine bye-bye, Telecommunications Act--what a joke.

We take one step forward, and it looks like ten steps back--that's what it looks like to me. The environment we are in today, I think there are two options-rein in too big to fail businesses with strict regulations and pass bills that create the flow of money from the bottom to the top or keep genuflecting to wall street and the corporations, allow them a free for all, and privatize the shite out of everything and watch this country sink further into fascism. And, it is fascism, isn't it? When the people have so little influence, and big businesses are running the show.

And, so far, every time it's let's move forward, another crime has been swept under the rug, and we, the people, are the ones who are hurt from such actions.

[HughMoran]

128. Pehaps you'd like to go back and live in 1950's America? 1960's America

When did we have an ideal society where people weren't being persecuted, politicians weren't criminals and industry wasn't taking advantage of workers?

Rolling everything into a giant ball of poo doesn't intimidate me at all - life sucked far more when I was a kid. Things are not moving forward as they should be, but we're looking an awful lot harder to find issues than back when the divisions were clear as day.

[treestar]

115. Vote third party

Good luck getting that Socialist or Green President and 60 Socialist Senators in today's America.

Since your activism is so needed by the Democratic party, then it would follow that we'll lose without you and the Socialists or greens or whichever you pick will be winning. Since you are so powerful.

Why didn't you do this before?

[cliffordu]

83. What I find telling is you immediately equate what I said

with Rahm...The insult to end all insults among....someone.........

Very telling that you have no real argument, just angst and name calling and masturbatory self importance.

[no limit]

95. I was just pointing out to you that you calling us children was a step up from fucking retards

so I guess we are making progress.

Good luck in the fall.

[cliffordu]

98. Thanks for all your earnest help and particularly your

courage during the rough times.

[HughMoran]

111. There is a certain repetitive, tiresome nature to these arguments

:boring:

[treestar]

114. Then why aren't you willing to fight your ass off for another decade

To get a public option or whatever else you want? Why now, is that out of the question and the POTUS is supposed to just deliver it to you on a silver platter?

[cliffordu]

138. But I did, grasshopper, I truly did.

Maybe It got shitcanned.

:shrug:

[tavalon]

93. Sorry dude, I'm calling bullshit

The reason you got put into the same category with Rahm is because, in this situation, you played the same game. Berating and guilt tripping is not the way to shore up the home team. I know its difficult to listen to all the anger but belittling those who feel that anger doesn't diminish it one iota. The thing is, if people here can just sit with the anger we're feeling and not tell us we shouldn't feel it, we could probably work past it to get to a place where we can feel good about voting for the Democrats.

I'm going to vote straight ticket Democrat but I'm doing it despite the gall I feel. I'm doing it because the alternative is worse, so yeah, the fear game works on me. But don't expect me to pretend that the Democrats have been acting like Democrats (except for the spinelessness -that's always been a Dem trait) and that I should be grateful for the shitty job they've been doing. The only people who have done a worse job than the Democrats in the last two years are the Republicans.

[cliffordu]

99. I never said you had to be grateful for anything

I don't care if you're grateful or not.

And the Dems do act more like R's every chance they get.

Be as angry and point out all the evils of the party as it is. Fabulous

I have a right to my own opinion

And I don't play the same game as Rahm - That's like calling liberals socialists.

Jerk knee, avoid thought all together.


Funny how when your little buddy up there berates it's just fine, when someone else does it, not so much.

infants.

[KonaKane]

79. And they didnt give me everything exactly as I wanted it....

Then I shall throw a tantrum, work against my own party, and cheer on the Republicans getting power again. Yes, that is a swell idea.

[no limit]

130. Do you not read? It's not that they didnt give us everything we wanted, its that they broke promises

but keep pretending like that isn't the case.

[KonaKane]

133. Obama has kept 119, broken 19. That's a fantastic record for any president, really.

I believe if you are waiting for a president he doesnt break a single one as the realities of their job become apparent, you are going to be waiting for a long....long...time.

[no limit]

141. That stupid list from politifact is simply not true

they leave off countless of things under the broken section. But hey, it makes a great talking point.

[no limit]

18. You won't have to wait long. When you piss off the people that got you elected

don't be shocked when they aren't so excited when the next election comes around.

Anyone that says we are cheering for republicans is so dishonest and so disingenuous that I would think this was freerepublic. But I guess that kind of thing has no ideological bounds.

[Skidmore]

20. When that's been accomplished, I expect we won't be hearing anymore

shrieking from those on our side who are helping the RW along.

[no limit]

23. You know who is helping the RW? The so called democrats moving this country further to the right

it's not the people that get pissed about that fact no matter how guilty you want to make them feel.

But by all means keep cheering, glad this is a game for you. When the RW is back in power it won't be because of people like me that got sick of being taken for granted, it will be the fault of people like you that support democrats no matter how insane they get.

[WonderGrunion]

69. This country hasn't moved to the right since Bush

It simply hasn't moved far enough left for you. Why must President Obama pass a liberal purity test for you to vote against Republicans winning.

[no limit]

74. It hasn't moved left at all. And yes, it has moved right on a number of issues

Afghanistan moved so far to the right even the RNC chairman doesn't support it.

The places it hasn't moved right on were as centrist as possible, healthcare bill gave us some left leaning things but the entire bill was based on the right wing idea of mandates.

[treestar]

116. Since you got Obama elected, next time, get the Green candidate for

President elected, OK?

Er, why didn't you do it this time?

And I'm sure President green will never "piss" on you. Not when you get him those 60 Green Senators.

Hopefully the greens march in lockstep, so they won't be differing over things.

[Donnachaidh]

17. there's a decidely shrieky quality to the guilt trip.

After all, we're not supposed to be the party of fear, are we?

[sufrommich]

22. God, what melodramatic bullshit. nt

[no limit]

24. Don't say anything bad about the president or the bad evil republicans will be elected

no, that's not fear mongering at all.

[sufrommich]

26. Of course, that's not what the OP said at all . There is a pretty

good correlation that a no vote for the democrat is a vote for a republican ,no?

[no limit]

42. There is also a good correlation between not pissing all over your base and having them work for you

[sufrommich]

43. I'll work for the dems. Others will too. If you prefer roaming

the desert in your hair shirt, be my guest.

[no limit]

44. I prefer not being pissed on and called fucking retarded. But by all means, work your ass off

wish you guys luck (and I mean that sincerely). For now I'm done fighting.

[treestar]

117. When you get that Socialist President elected

Will you be encouraging us not to criticize him/her?

[cliffordu]

29. Then sit it out.

who could give a shit?

:hurts:

You look great when you pout, by the way.

[tavalon]

92. Not a winning strategy for sure

I'm galled at how they treat us. I'm voting for them anyway, despite my anger. But I suspect that many of us will just abstain.

[NJmaverick]

124. Who pissed on whom exactly?

[sendero]

87. Yeah..

... and with the presidency and majorities in both houses of Congress, we did NOTHING OF SUBSTANCE TO STOP THEM.

[TwilightGardener]

3. It's like every slasher movie you've ever seen. They keep coming back

until the credits roll.

[groovedaddy]

4. How far to the right can this country go? So far that the Democratric party (at least the elected

officials) are to the right of Dick Nixon. Time for the Repubs to go away, let the Democratic party be the establishment party and then progressives form a TRULY progressive party.

[sufrommich]

16. And then the republican's can have their war with Iran,

and their "pure" capitalism and their religious government. Brilliant plan!

[no limit]

25. Name one action Obama took on Iran that is different from what the Bush admin did.

[sufrommich]

31. Is there not a drawdown of troops in Iraq? An end in sight?

Do you understand that the republicans want ANOTHER front opened in Iran? So because you can't have perfect, you'll settle for batshit insane? Is that what you're saying?

[no limit]

35. So you cant name a single action that is different from Bush?

[sufrommich]

37. .

[sufrommich]

38. I see a huge difference between Obama's sanctions against

Iran and the GOP inevitable plans for war with Iran, you don't?

[no limit]

40. What is the difference? The GOP had 8 years to start war with Iran

it didn't happen. And I don't see what you are basing your assumption on that democrats are less likely to attack Iran than republicans are when the actions are all identical.

[JoePhilly]

53. Wrong , wrong, wrong ...

They did not have 8 years ...

First, there was the invasion of Afganistan ... then Iraq. Those DELAYED any Bush invasion of Iran.

But they did not prevent the Bush administration from racheting up the "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" rhetoric.

And anyone who thinks that Obama has continued that rhetoric is insane.

[no limit]

57. Bush never bombed Iran, that is a fact, for a while he even had the political will to do so

yet here we are in 2010 and you can't name a single thing Obama has done differently when it comes to Iran but you are convinced the republicans want war and democrats don't.

I'll ask again, maybe you can't actually give me an answer this time. What are you making that assumption on?

[JoePhilly]

58. You are WRONG ...

The Bush administration REGULARLY made threats against Iran. John Bolton was on Fox News REGULARLY describing the very likely need to BOMB them.

Bush made him our UN ambassador and after he left that position, he said this ...
http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/John-Bolton-Iran/2007/10/29/id/322027

Or how about this ... Cheney threatens Iran ...
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/may2007/iran-m12.shtml

Or we could consider this ...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CRG502A.html

That last link is useful ... much of the positions there, and in the links it includes related to a group called the Project for New American Century ... or PNAC. William Kristol of Fox News is one of the founders.

That group believes that the US must use its military to FORCE the Middle East (all of it) to do what we want.

The Obama administration is so far away from this ideology that the comparison is LAUGHABLE for anyone who knows who PNAC is, and what its role in the Bush administration was.

Obama, counter to your view, is trying to leverage Colin's Powell's foreign policy model here. The Powell Doctrine was rejected by Bush and the PNAC members of his administration, but Powell was right.

[no limit]

So you basis that democrats are less likely to attack Iran than republicans is threats? Look at this

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/iran/article/793755--iran-slams-barack-obama-s-nuclear-war-threat

Jesus, talk about a threat right there. Did the Bush admin ever threaten to nuke Iran?

[JoePhilly]

66. Can you read??

The article you posted does not say Obama threatens to nuke Iran.

If you paid attention as you read this ... prior to this announcement, the US maintained the right to nuke ANY country, including Iran and NK. See ... we ALREADY maintained the right to nuke Iran and NK, and many other countries.

This change in policy reflects agreements with other countries, and Iran and NK, for obvious reasons, are not included. Big deal.

There is no change in policy regarding Iran and NK in this respect.

In other words ... if the Obama administration had not changed it's policy regarding the other countries, you'd be lacking a link to scream about.

[no limit]

72. Wait, wait. What are the obvious reasons from exculding Iran and NK from a nuclear attack?

Yes, there was a change in policy. The administration decided that we would never nuke any country without nuclear weapons but decided to leave 2 countries out, NK (fair enough, they have nukes) and Iran (which doesn't have nukes).

That's not a threat? How about this:

Story

Sure sounds like the Bush administration, doesn't it?

And finally, yes, I can read. I read your reply. It boiled down to neocons are evil (no duh) and the Bush administration made lots of threats. As I showed you Obama is not shy to threats. So I am still waiting for anyone to point to a specific example of the Obama policy on Iran being different from the Bush policy. Feel free to do that at anytime.

[KonaKane]

80. Didn't Bush ACTUALLY START two wars?

And how many has Obama started again? Christ, I feel like I'm talking to "one of them".....

[newspeak]

106. Little Boots opened Pandora's Box knowing

that it didn't matter if it was repug or democrat, that box wasn't going to close anytime soon. He opened it for the MIC, who is making a literal killing off of the citizens of this country. I am for any politician who is for the MAJORITY of the American people-whose first priority is to the American people. Little Boots needlessly put Americans in harms way for a buck--as Kissenger has said, we are cannon fodder. When a politician, be it repug or democrat, pass bills that further deregulate corporations, pass bills that give corporations more advantage over the american people who are hurting now, and give corporations carte blanche to rape and pillage our land for a pittance with little regard to the environment or people's livelihoods (while those corporations send our resources out of the country and make obscene profits off of it)-then I'm not willing to support such actions against the people.

The mess we're in was created by eight years of Little Boots with six years of a very compliant majority repug congress. But, the DLC is also responsible for our present predicament and some democrats in congress went along with Little Boots. In eight years of *, job creation has the worse numbers in at least fifty years, and yet the people in this country seem to have a short term memory problem-those who created the problem, are now saying they have the solution. It is utter madness!

Obama has done some positive things, but for those bills that really matter, and his appointments that really matter, it seems that he has kept some of Little Boots people in place-and there may be a reason for this. I am not impressed by his appointments that affect our economic condition-and so, I see that the status quo is maintained-no sweeping change (as what is needed to get us back on our feet) yet, that will change the direction this country is headed.

I will never, however, vote for those who are responsible for this FUBAR--I will vote and campaign for those who have the interest of main street over wall street. Now, living in Nevada, I am forced to vote for Reid, because again, the alternative is a nightmare.

[KonaKane]

134. Thank you, that well elucidated why I am still a Democrat.

I wish more would read your thoughts on this.

[treestar]

118. Bush would not be drawing down there!

Are you nuts? :shrug:

[KansDem]

5. I don't understand it myself...

The GOP was horrendous for America! Reaganomics was a failure; "Trickle-Down" was a joke (did we really think if we gave the wealthy more money they would invest it in America?)

The GOP wars are based on lies; GOP Corporatism killed the Gulf.

We gave the banks and Wall Street hundreds of billions to "help them out"--they pocketed the money while tossing homeowners out and moving American jobs overseas...

All under the GOP...

Do we really want another round of this?

I don't understand it myself...

[The Hitman]

11. BUT

Where is the messaging?! Why do the dems not say this?

[MisterP]

47. every one of which is being continued by today's Dems, aided and abetted by fabricated panic about

the wrong cats getting into the Mouseland government!

[inna]

140. It doesn't matter what WE want. It only matters what THEY want.

[tabatha]

6. Yes.

It is also very easy to deride "the lesser of two evils".

However, from day one of Obama's presidency they have vowed to destroy him EVEN if it means destroying the country.

If the Dems lose, then they will have successfully destroyed Obama.

That cannot happen, otherwise there will NEVER be a shift to the left ever again.

[WonderGrunion]

70. I wish I could rec a response

Obama has moved the country to the left. It just isn't left enough for some people here to cut him any slack.

[newspeak]

108. the problem is this "left" and "right" meme

I think a better meme would be "the people" and "big business." This country, however, has been for "big business" against labor, against the majority of the people for quite some time. It is not just repugs who have sullied their hands with deregulation, anti-labor and outsourcing. And, let's not forget civil liberties and the constitution. So, instead of "left"- "right" maybe those terms could be changed to "pro-greedy huge businesses" and "pro-the rest of the people."

[JoePhilly]

105. +1000

[David Zephyr]

14. K&R.

Simply stated. Powerful truth. K&R.

[opihimoimoi]

28. THE GOP HAS A DEATH WISH and they wanna drag us into their Delusional Realm

N who the heck is Pat Toomey, Republican,,,,wanting to continues the GOP Madness?

Vote BLUE

Never ever Red

[inna]

33. Deregulation under Clinton has greatly contributed to the crisis.

[JoePhilly]

54. Another great argument against letting the GOP get majorities in Congress.

[NJmaverick]

121. I'm sorry did you say Reagan or Clinton?

[inna]

139. Look up Glass-Steagal repeal, NAFTA and WTO, among others (and notice the dates).

Deregulation (and Friedmanite economics in general) started under Reagan but only escalated under Clinton.

[tom_paine]

39. The most difficult part is that I see both sides of the picture

Even if I do agree, like many here, that we needed an FDR performance from Obama, but instead got a DLC Bill Clinton performance again, I also see your side of it.

From my perspective, the fusion of the two sides comes down to this: If the choice is between Good Cop & Bad Cop, I'll choose Good Cop every time.

So I will vote straight Democratic, as I have since 1998, when my disgust for the Limbaugh-Gingrich RW Authoritarianism the Republicans were embracing grew too great. But I doubt I can muster up the enthusiasm to donate or work campaign, as I have done in every even-year election since 2002.

You see, beyond the policy debates lies something deeper. People can't be expected to be endlesly enthusiastic when they are being taken for granted or even betrayed on almost EVERY SINGLE ISSUE, at least the significant ones.

Has Obama done some good things? Definitely. But not on a single thing that gets to the heart of the matter of what is wrong with this country, which is surging RW authoritarianism, or as I like to say "no more conservative and liberals, only neoconservatives and neoliberals left in power".

Instead of saying anything even remotely like, "The economic royalists hate me, and I welcome their hatred," Obama has kissed their ass every time even reassuring that he did not begrudge them their insane Robber Baron compensation.

Instead of even trying for a Public Option in HCR, Obama dealt it away to his Corporate Pals on Day One, then played an elaborat joke on his "base of retards".

I don't want to sit here listing examples, but you get my meaning. How can a person remain enthusiastic about this after pretty much 30 years of it, the last 12 being especially odious and painfully obvious? And the last 4 years, with the Democrats in "control", nearly agonizing?

And ultimately, as Obama has painfully showed, does elevating DLC Democrats even really slow down the destruction of this country by Republican Policies when much of the DLC policies ARE Republican piolicies of a decade and a half ago, like Health Care.

Sure the GOP must be stopped. Unfortunately, the DLC Democrats who run the Democratic Party are pretty much Republicans, too. They are just Bob Dole Republicans.

So yes, I will sigh and cast my vote for Good Cop. Just don't expect me to be enthusiastic about it. I'm just one of Rahm's Retards.

[WillyT]

46. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said...

:applause::applause::applause:

:yourock:

:hi:

[JoePhilly]

55. Silly.

This is what is happening ... we on the left are too quick to scream foul.

We know the GOP is AGAINST anything Obama does. So when he puts a stake in the ground, some percentage of the left, say 5% to 15% screams its not enough and loudly opposes him too.

The media adds it up ... 40% from the right, 10% from the left Against ... and then declares that 50% of Americans think Obama has gone too far. The sheep in the middle (say 10%) move to against and reflecivly agree that Obama is doing too much.

So the cowards in congress balk even more. And we end up compromising even more.

Understand, what I am describing is how the politics works ... we should be able to both support Obama's TACTICAL starting point AND then also describe our STRATEGIC goal. The place we want to get to.

But we are unwilling ... we are too impatient to make incremental progress, and yet we are also apparently willing to allow the GOP to retake control and move in the opposite direction.

[tom_paine]

67. OK, fine. You have a right to your opinion In fact, you have a built in scapegoat.

Which is, ironically, the same scapegoat the RW and the DLC has...The Left.

I don't begrudge you your opinion. I have been watching this all unfold since the mid 70s, and it took me 25 years to even start to break out of M$M "conventional wisdom". Even THEN I didn't want to believe it.

You see, I believe you are trying to jam an increasingly upside-down set of circumstances into the ever narrowing slot of "conventional wisdom". And yes, it SHOULD work as you say... if the entire system had not been stretched, distorted and neutralized out of all recognition by a long-range RW Plan and a bunch of clueless or complicit Democrats that didn't resist when they had the chance, to oversimplify just a bit for the sake of brevity.

Let me just give you something to chew on: Why is it that the M$M adds up the 40% of the Right against Obama and the 10% of the Left "against" Obama (though I would NEVER answer a poll that I disapproved of Obama because the media would interpret it exactly as you said) without ever specifying or even mentioning the criticism that comes from the Left (thus making sure the public is never exposed so those ideas), thereby giving the false impression that it's all just "against Obama" from the same side?

Why is it that, during the election the M$M used to say No terrorist attack would be good for McCain because it proves Bush policies are working, but they also said A terrorist attack would be good for McCain because it would show Americans they needed a tough security policy.

Modern politics and media is now FULL of these lose-lose situations for the Democrats. And THAT is most definitely NOT how politics should work, where one side is losing even before the rigged game starts. It works like that specifically because the system has been so throughly gamed and neutralized by the RW over the past 40 years at all levels

Obama's only option was to come out swinging and shatter the misperceptions. To use the bully pulpit like FDR and pull no punches. Instead, for whatever reason we can never know, he throughly played into the misperceptions, the Media Hologram, our National State of Fugue or whatever you want to call it; relegitimizing the Republicans, working with them even as they shit on him, making concessions to "win their votes" that he never got anyway, and so much more.

How many years of "dry powder" will it take before YOU start to wonder if maybe something is going on that is well outside the bounds of our increasingly narrowed, loony national "conventional wisdom"? Maybe when the Catfood Commission and Congress raises retirement to 70 and increases the Payroll Tax while "defense" spending skyrockets?

Who knows? One day, maybe you will have your "Alice Through the Looking Glass" moment, too. And I am willing to bet that, just like me, even after that you will resist believing it because it's too painful and frankly, too crazy to be true (even though it IS true - life frequently is crazy and doesn't make rational sense, somehow we seem to have forgotten that).

Or, you could continue following "conventional wisdom" and just blame The Left. You'll certainly have the pleasure of running with the crowd.

[JoePhilly]

104. The problem I see here is this ...

You assume that I see "the left" as some monolithic entity. It is not.

That 10% of the left who is AGAINST policy X is not the same 10% that will be against policy Y. It shifts around, and includes different people at different times.

And your suggestion that I blame the left is also incorrect.

At the core, the problem is with the GOP and the media. That 40% is getting fooled into supporting policies that will hurt them. Where the "left" gets hurt is in the political tactics.

I was listening to Stephanie Miller the other day. And a guy called in claiming that the "majority of Americans are against HCR reform" ... and that clearly proves that most Americans see it as too liberal.

You and I know that is not true. But that's how it gets played. And so if the President and the Dems push harder to the left, then the media will play that up as "Obama is ignoring the American people", a meme we're heard over and over.

Last point ... you wanted Obama to come out swinging ... but if you recall, he ran as a moderate ... as a President who would work with Democrats and Republicans.

Personally, I think its time for him to explain to the American people that the GOP is unwilling to do that under any circumstances, and so the gloves are now off. But ... given he ran as a moderate who would work across the aisle, I'm not sure we can be surprised that he has actually tried to do that.

[Hydra]

84. Want some of this?

:popcorn:

We're in a situation so looney, so far outside the lines of "accepted reality" that most people simply can't wrap their minds around a simple fact- we aren't in charge here, and haven't been.

I vote Dem because the sooner everyone sees how ineffective it is, the sooner we can stop blaming it on people who don't vote.

The Repubs will win in a landslide, despite having no logical reason to still be alive as a party. That was the opportunity missed, but it was never on the table anyway.

[tom_paine]

94. "We're in a situation so looney, so far outside the lines of "accepted reality"

that most people simply can't wrap their minds around a simple fact- we aren't in charge here, and haven't been."

This is a chief characteristic of authoritarian/totalitarian states, creating a fantasy that contravenes the brutal realities surrounding people, the fantasy being much more comforting to the mind and ego.

The chief difference between the old dasys and now is that now, totalitarianism (at least the American version of Inverted Totalitarianism) is so much more "kinder and gentler" than the old, brutally ham-fisted version, which could never work here because of any number of factors but mostly stemming from the Founding Ideals of the nations.

Combine that with the fact that the "plausible deniability machine" of Corporate M$M and it's partner, the RW Lie Machine, are so much more subtle and powerful than anything human beings have ever faced in the past, and it becomes easy to see why so ver very few even now, at this late stage, notice that something is very very wrong and the the "old normal" is never coming back.

Sadly, I see the script of 1994 being revisited, up to and including the DLC President who let the Bushies go, then was repaid with a smashing on all fronts. The Corporate M$M/RW Lie Machine fusion is so much more through now that I don't even think Obama could have won in 2008 if the Bushies hadn't purposefully smashed and looted the economy just prior.

[newspeak]

112. How I wish Howard Dean was still in the DNC!!!

I am not a "new" democrat, I will never be a "new" democrat!!!!! For those of us who do not want to see the majority of the American people suffer, who do not want to see the safety net cut, who do not want to see even more privatization for greedy dickheads, then we can either change the direction of the party or, with enough dissatisfaction, something new will be created. It's that simple.

[NJmaverick]

123. The liberals that Rahm referred to as "retards" were the ones helping the GOP

by attacking the Dems. There is a serious misconception that Rahm was referring to all liberals as retards, which simply wasn't the case.

[Scurrilous]

41. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Obamanaut]

45. For the most part, whether the majority is R or D, it is business as usual.

The foxes in office get their fill of the chickens, make sure their friends get as much as they want, and leave the scraps to the general public.

[KonaKane]

78. This sounds like the t-bagger viral mails I get every day

With the trademark "they are all the same" meme.

[Obamanaut]

81. They ARE the same. Just different alphabet characters with their names. We

rant and rave about how congress is screwing us, and every two years we go to the polls and reelect at least 90% of the ones seeking reelection. The only sure way to get a new face is for one of them to die in office or retire.

Then, for another two years we rant and rave about how congress is screwing us.

People who refuse to admit this have their heads up, er, in the sand.

[KonaKane]

135. A libertarian/RW meme if ever I saw one.

Anyone who can seriously say the Democrats operate exactly the same as the republicans when they achieve power, is someone who has not been paying attention.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

137. Tell that to people who lived on $5.15 an hour until the Dems took over congress

That would be me. My husband earned 6 dollars an hour. The Republicans had Congress for 12 years and they did fuck all to help us. Dems had Congress for less than 100 days when they raised the minimum wage.

[NJmaverick]

122. That's a proven false naderite talking point

Bush showed just how wrong and how destructive that false talking point can be.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

136. ROFL...yeah Im sure we'd be in the exact same spot with President Gore from 01-09

That "Dems and Repubs are the same!!!!!" line is total bullshit. Hopefully most people have memories that go back longer than a year and a half and don't fall prey to such mushy headed "logic".

[SoCalDem]

59. Until the majority of people here figure this out, we are screwed

Our politics of "move ahead..never look back", allows the blame-worthy to escape unscathed every time, since the attention-span of most Americans is just slightly less than that of a newborn baby.

We start-over every 2/4 yrs, and then wonder why we never accomplish anything anymore.

[RandomThoughts]

64. The people that say there is no free will.

Also want to keep people from being accountable. There is a delusion that people can not choose what they do. And so nobody should be held accountable for what they do.

It is a delusion for people to excuse bad behavior.

There needs to be justice, and part of that includes those that think they are above that. Not target justice for an agenda, but an equally applied justice across all of society.

It is true that a person should not hate the person, but they can have methods of enforcement to keep society in order.

[glitch]

77. It's like the windows virus that constantly rebooted the system,

no chance to get anything done until the virus is eradicated.

[newspeak]

129. well, Little Boots sure as hell accomplished something

gave us with his repug friends, the "screw you pharma bill", gave us two war, and big business and the wealthy can do no wrong. More tax cuts for the rich, while the other folks can foot the bill, lose their jobs and see their pensions go bye-bye. Oh, and he loved that constitution TP-it might have been a little rough wiping his arse; however, I'm sure he saved it for special occasions. :sarcasm:

So much damage was done in those eight years, do you actually think a vapid response will rectify the problems we face today? Or will we see "token" improvements, just enough to satisfy most of the constituents and maintaining a very damaging status quo?

I'm not optimistic with the response so far and those he has chosen to respond to creating and implementing these policies. We will see-in the end we'll see if our public educational system will be dismantled and weakened for corporatized schooling, if health insurance companies wind up having reasonable rates or screwing the consumers (with less services), if Obama's special commission on social security and medicare wind up handing our money to wallstreet and screwing those who have not yet reached retirement or if he raises the cap.

See, I know what the repukes will do-as NAFTA-GATT-I want to see just what policies the "new democrats" favor. We shall see.

[mdmc]

63. If only someone would think of the children!

[HughMoran]

75. Agreed

[lib2DaBone]

85. It will be the DEMS that hand it to them on a silver platter..

[tavalon]

86. I am extremely unhappy with my "team", Team Democrat

I would even say I'm furious with some of them. I sent money to some of the primary challengers. But I will vote in the fall and I will vote straight Democrat, even though Rahm is trying to goad me into not doing it. I am going to ignore him and I'm voting Democrat. Why? My choice is between them and batshit crazy and we've already experienced plenty of batshit crazy.

That said, in the long view, we must get corporate money out of politics. Corporations, almost without exception, are the evil we must fight. They've co-opted plenty of our guys and all of the other guys.

[DCBob]

89. Especially the conservatives.. they feel they lost a golden opportuntity from 2000-08..

They were unable to force their favorite conservative policies on America because Bush and congress werent effective enough or conservative enough or brave enough. They think they might get another opportunity if they can take back congress in 2010 then win the WH in 2012. God helps us if they do.

[DarkValkyrie]

125. They won't stop until things go their way

Republicans are conservatives, conservatives naturally fear change, so they just want to go back to their ways that never work. They want to help the rich avoid taxes instead of the average. They are brainwashing their own supporters to take their side by using words like socialism and big government. This country will go back into darkness if they gain control of the senate or house. Just when things were starting to get a little better...

[Overseas]

127. I agree. Stop those Greedy Obstructionist Plutocrats !! //nt

[AtomicKitten]

132. Yes indeed.

:fistbump: