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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 01:39 PM
Original message
A Presidency in Peril: The Inside Story of Obama's Alliance with Wall Street


A Presidency in Peril: The Inside Story of Obama's Alliance with Wall Street
Author: Robert Kuttner

Robert Kuttner—cofounder and coeditor of The American Prospect magazine, Distinguished Senior Fellow of the think tank Demos, and author of the New York Times best seller Obama’s Challenge: America’s Economic Crisis and the Power of a Transformative Presidency, the most prescient political book of 2008—has written a new book. A Presidency in Peril: The Inside Story of Obama’s Promise, Wall Street’s Power, and the Struggle to Control our Economic Future is available now from the Chelsea Green bookstore, from Amazon.com, and booksellers everywhere.

Can Barack Obama redeem his presidency?

Throughout his first year, Obama dismayed many of his most fervent supporters by failing to make a Roosevelt-scale break with the old economic order that brought the economy to crisis. He sought common ground with Republicans who were determined to destroy him. He gave priority to Wall Street over Main Street. The far right began to appropriate the populist anger.

In this definitive account of Obama’s first 14 months, best selling author and economic critic Robert Kuttner tells the story of why Obama did not rise to the occasion in 2009, how he filled his administration with the same financial elites that produced the collapse—and how Obama can still redeem his presidency and the promise of a new progressive era.

As Kuttner explains, the wake-up call after the Massachusetts senate election and Obama’s belated leadership on health reform are just the beginning of a long road back to the hopes that Obama kindled as a candidate. Kuttner concludes by reporting on the interplay of progressive activism on the ground and presidential leadership in the White House.

http://www.chelseagreen.com/content/announcing-a-presidency-in-peril-now-available/



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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kick
I tried to rec, but the usual suspects beat me to it with a neg.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
52. I did too, but it says the 24 hours for rec'ing are up.
Isn't it still on the rec. list though?

I hope Obama pays attention to those who are trying to help him regain the support of those he needs most, his base. Starting with getting rid of Rahm Emmanuel and Geithner, Bernanke et al. It doesn't look like much change when you see the same faces, Gates, Petraeous et al that we saw when Bush was in the WH. Don't we have any Democrats in this country who could fill those roles? Isn't that what people voted for?
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R
This is one of the more disturbing things about this Admin. :(
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Goodnight Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
37. It's THE most disturbing
All the other disturbing things basically come down to this one.
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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. War, torture, and permanent detention without trial
are pretty disturbing too
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Goodnight Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #43
60. Yes, but the wars are allowed to go on because his Wall Street buddies profit from them
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. Too bad not more info at the link
But I think the author is being overly optimistic. This feels like 1994 all over again.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. You can get more information at this Amazon link:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. kr

"Obama’s belated leadership on health reform are just the beginning of a long road back to the hopes that Obama kindled as a candidate"

Huh?? WTF?
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
38. Am surprised Kuttner did not 'get' that kabuki dance.
Edited on Wed Jul-07-10 11:43 AM by ooglymoogly
The fact that he did not, puts his whole premise into question.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. It's just business as usual.

Every president is similarly beholden to the Owners. There will be no new New Deal, the Owners have no fear of the people. "Progressives' have no weight because they do not take a firm stand against capitalism and thus can be safely ignored.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Unless or Until we can elect someone who...
"welcomes their hatred"--FDR

Even LBJ, War Warts and All, recognized that as leader of the Democratic Party he had an obligation to those who were NOT in the top 1%.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone


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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. the man in your sig is the one who OUGHT to be in the WH now.
RIP, our last best hope.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Accidents happen...
...to Liberal Democrats.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. More often than not, ONLY to liberal Democrats.
Kucinich doesn't need to be blasted. They can just marginalize and make fun of him and it works.

It's the serious threats such as the Kennedys and Wellstones (that is, politicians with progressive ideas and public appeal) of the world they have to rub out.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Wellstone stood for peace.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
76. +++
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Like FDR, JFK was viewed as a class traitor.
Edited on Tue Jul-06-10 06:30 PM by Mimosa
Those who were born middle class seem to want to get into the upper class when they win national offices. It means their children will become 'somebodies' not nobodies like the rest of us. So they strive to please the lordly class.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. That person would have to drive around in a Popemobile 24-7.
Edited on Wed Jul-07-10 08:52 AM by HughBeaumont
Corprocrats don't take too kindly when you have some interloper trying to mess with even a smidgen of the 700-million-fold advantage the Ruling Class have over everyone else.

Don't make me President. I would need one of those and would be surrounded by a personal army at all times.

The wealthy would have a TMTR of 50%, possibly higher. Corporations would be kowtowing and steppin-fetching to ME and the PEOPLE, not the other way around. The Pentasewer would be massively defunded.

This notion of "empire", "Manifest Destiny" and the "world cop" would go away.

Universal health care. Universal education. Guaranteed minimum income. Maximum wage. Institute all of these, and co-ops & free enterprise will flourish. Manufacturing would be brought back. Infrastructure and public transportation would be improved under works programs.

If the private sector has shit to say, I'll tell them right back "START HIRING, START PAYING, STOP BITCHING. For the past century, YOU have been the problem, NOT the solution. Own up and stop acting like a bunch of diaper whiners. You have every advantage known to mankind. Under this new way, waaaaaah . . . you'll still be rich. Assholes."

Of course, with the ruling class, it was never JUST about them being rich. It's that everyone else around them has to be poor, stupid, fearful and easily controlled.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
48. Wait . . . they SHOT the Pope while he was in a Popemobile . . . didn't they?
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #48
62. Mehmet Ali Agca shot the Pope while he was in an open car greeting the crowd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34hZPisnIA0

Later on, all . . . . well, both popes . . . travelled in this thingamajob:

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #62
75. Thanks . . . somehow my memory was that he was in one of those funny carts--!!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #62
77. Actually he was riding in something quite open . . .
&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.news.sky.com%2Fskynews%2FHome%2FWorld-News%2FPope-John-Paul-II-Attacker-Agca-Released-From-Prison-In-Turkey%2FArticle%2F201001315528094%3Flpos%3DWorld_News_Third_Home_Page_Article_Teaser_Region__8%26lid%3DARTICLE_15528094_Pope_John_Paul_II_Attacker_Agca_Released_From_Prison_In_Turkey_&size=34k&name=15528150+jpg&p=Attack+on+Pope+by+Agca&oid=084cd5033d61f8b0&fr2=&no=5&tt=19&sigr=18mluc7pi&sigi=12eou92v7&sigb=12p6fs4tc
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
40. I love that
FDR quote...'welcome their hatred.'

Damn the multi-nationals. Everyday I'm going to email the Investor Relations of a multi-national and just tell them they are what is wrong with America today.

I emailed the '$-minders' of Target earlier today...after calling their toll free # and speaking to a woman in Manilla.

I asked for the address of Target HQ so I could mail Gregg Steinhafel, CEO, a note. She gave me some 'Mail Stop # TF51AX' and then a PO Box #. She had no physical address. So I clicked on 'Investor Relations' and found their physical address.

I miss 'mom and pop store.' I miss local hardware stores. I miss local drug stores with a soda fountain.

Target with a Starbucks inside...I don't miss at all.

F*ck Target and the fact that they eliminated Dept. Leaders who earned a couple of dollars more than the usual $8/hour.

I'm shopping at 2nd hand stores and local grocery stores as much as possible.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. Sounds like a must read book
From the OP:


"In this definitive account of Obama’s first 14 months, best selling author and economic critic Robert Kuttner tells the story of why Obama did not rise to the occasion in 2009, how he filled his administration with the same financial elites that produced the collapse—and how Obama can still redeem his presidency and the promise of a new progressive era."

I think many of us were shocked at some of Obama's cabinet appointments. In many ways I'm seeing Obama has been doing what Bush would do if he were still president, except for judicial nominees.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
35. That was the day any "hope" I had died.
These names: Rahm Emmanuel, Tim Geitner, Larry Summers.

When I read those names I knew we were royally fucked. :cry: I had never been a "True Believer" but I thought we had at least a 50/50 shot at him being something differant.

I now completely understand The Powers That Be will never let a true reformer anywhere near our White House.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. Agree --
I've always been suspicious of those who have a meteoric rise --

but took confidence in those who suggested they'd been watching Obama a long time --

Obama also definitely tried to separate himself from the DLC --

so I voted for him --

That's the hard part now -- to see so much new damage being done with the refinancing

of the wars over the last four years now -- Obama actually increasing the troops in

Afghanistan -- and Obama now taking up the where Bush left off in attacking Social Security

and Medicare!

This is all farce -- yet the American voter keep trying to believe in a new savior!



As William L. Shirer, author of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, put it in speaking of the excesses of the Nixon administration, "We could become the first country to go fascist through free elections."

And I'd question every election back to Nixon/Humphrey --

The large computers used by MSM and the individual voting computers began to come in during the

mid-and-late 1960's - just about the time America was passing The Voting Rights Act!


:)
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
58. Ditto
BHO's choice of those vermin said it all.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
13. K&R
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. The fact is that big money interests can hold our country hostage.
And our political system is designed to protect them. If they go down they can and will take the whole country with them. There is little anything a progressive president can do except to work towards modest gains here and there. The problem is our system of government and economic system, and it is virtually impossible to change those things in any significant way.
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I think you are right. But it must change or we die.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
27. "Can"?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
47. NATURE will play the final cards in this because capitalism is not only
exploitive of human beings and a threat to democracy --

it's highly exploitive of nature, natural resources and animal-life -- all of which

has resulted in disastrous pollution of the planet and Global Warming ---

40% of what is coming up in the Gulf with the oil is Methane Gas which creates

Global Warming and will only increase our problems tremendously.


"Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" have to be challenged and ended --

they are simply licenses for the elites to exploit nature -- with "god's" blessing!


Capitalism is a suicidal concept --

and we have to stop judging everything by the yardstick of a dollar bill!

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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
17. If he wants to redeem his presidency, he had better start right now.
A good start would be dumping Salazar, Duncan, Geithner, and a few others tomorrow.

The repukes are united. They are not going to support anything, any time, any how that he proposes. He needs to grab the bully pulpit. Grab the populist anger, and shoot them down in flames on an hourly basis. He has nothing to lose.

And if he's still trying to figure out whose ass to kick, he can start with BP, all the way back to Buckingham Palace!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
49. Don't think anyone goes this far in this direction unintentionally....
but always hope I'm wrong!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Deleted message
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. The people who decided that Obama and Clinton were the only "serious" candidates
Obviously.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
51. MSM pushed out anyone more liberal . . .
Same thing happened in the Kerry race -- Kerry had like 3% approval as

they went into the primaries -- then ooops! he was suddenly the candidate!

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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. You ask that in a way that makes me suspect you have some
Edited on Wed Jul-07-10 09:07 AM by Jackpine Radical
hypotheses about the answer.

So go ahead--speculate. I'm really interested in your thoughts.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
21. Recommend
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
22. K&R
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marketbreakaway Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
23. Obama Needs A PLAN!
The health care reform that we got is not a plan, it is a
mess.

Here is a plan:  We are going to remove the cost of health
insurance from american business by extending medicare to
everyone.  We are going to pay for it by including in your
income tax the value of the employer benefits.  We are going
to control costs by rationing care to the elderly, requiring
significant co-pay, providing a national health database and
limiting torts.

Cap and Trade is not a plan, it is an excuse for more taxes
and limiting personal freedom.

Here is a plan:  The federal government will sponsor and
indemnify the building of 100 nuclear electric plants across
the county combined with a super efficient power distribution
system.  The federal government will encourage the movement
off of oil and onto natural gas and electric by increasing the
federal tax at the pump by 10 cents per month for the next 48
months.

Filing law suits against Arizona is not a plan, it is a civil
war.

Here is a plan:  The US will withdraw its troops from
Afghanistan and Iraq and South Korea (et.al.) and will
permanently station those troops along the borders to prevent
illegal immigration HOWEVER the US will simultaneously change
its immigration laws to allow any person to immigrate
providing that they can show that they legally provide for
their own support.

Obama needs a plan.
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AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Obama needs to FIRE all of his corporate advisors & appoint progressives
The people advising Obama couldn't care less about representing the people who worked so hard to get Obama elected. He needs to fire corrupt hacks like Salazar from the Interior Department as well as several other members of his cabinet. And if he doesn't do it quick he is going to lose in 2012.

I have no idea what happened to candidate-Obama, but whoever is in the White House is NOT that person any longer. Obama is compromising with the devil every time he gives into the right wing. I didn't work for and elect Obama so he could cave in to the republican party. Obama needs more than a plan. He needs GUTS. He needs to grow a pair and not just play angry to the cameras. He needs to START to listen to the people who got him in office. But ever since he's been in office he has been caving in to republicans, even though they don't reward him with one vote. I'm beginning to wonder about President Obama's intelligence if he thinks it's helping the country by compromising with people who will not support anything he does.

Wake up Obama! START LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED YOU! And republicans didn't elect you, WE DID!


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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. Your plan is out of Glenn Beck's playbook. Whatever... n/t
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
73. To be fair
I don't think Glenn Beck's playbook would open with expanding medicare to everyone. Then finish with troop withdrawals.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-10 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
80. Thoughtful suggestions.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
29. K&R
The lack of naysayer posts thus far leads me to believe our DLC New Dem contingent must be sleeping in this morning.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
42. Maybe they're on holiday?
So much overtime must take a toll after all....
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
31. I think we stand a better chance being represented if we fight for
public funded elections.

We do not have a MSM that challenges, never mind reports on much of anything that is of
importance. Has anyone read of an article where Obama recently had to defend via detailed questions about the alleged
meaningful financial reform? I haven't.

Has anyone read where Obama answered tough questions about Arne Duncan and Race To The Top? I haven't. I may or may not agree
with Obama on several of his policy choices, but what kills me is how a president does not have to directly defend them.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
54. In fighting for anything . .. the first step is for Americans to UNITE ....
and I don't see that happening --

Imagine, Senior Citizens aren't united!

All LABOR doesn't identity with labor unions!

We are no longer united in regard to the environment/NATURE which is fatally damaged --

remember EARTH DAY which they have pretty much disappeared!

Millions and millions of unemployed and they're not UNITED!

Though there are people trying to organize them!

IMAGINE!!


Meanwhile, corporations are organized every which way, up and down and sideways!

Organized patriarchal religion is the underpinning for patriarchy, itself --

and capitalism was invented by the Vatican when Feudalism was no longer sufficient to

run their Papal States.

We are controlled by hierarchies of power now in large part!

And concepts of rule which are fascist and ROTTING!!



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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
32. "This guy is just an asshole who hates puppies and freedom...." in 5, 4, 3, 2 nt
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BEZERKO Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
34. Will buy soon!
Also on my list to read soon is The Empathic Civilizatoin by Jeremy Rifkin.

K&R
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
36. Roosevelt-scale break with the old economic order
Well that's rich because it was Roosevelt's reforms that saved the old economic order.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. Interesting insight. (nt)
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. I would prefer Roosevelt had destroyed capitalism rather than reform and regulate it
However, his policies allowed capitalism to co-exist with the people of this country for several decades without a disaster of this magnitude. The systematic rollback of the New Deal protections over 3 decades led us where we are. That is how effective it was. It took 3 decades of dismantling to bring us to this point.

I think the clear message of history is that leaving the capitalist system in place was a mistake. Capitalism seems like some sort of sci-fi monster with an ability to keep resurrecting itself to wage war on people. The only real answer to this is to notice that we gave them a chance to rehabilitate themselves last time they brought us down like this but they have proven congenitally incapable of playing on a level field which allows them and the majority to prosper and grow. Time to kill the monster. They have proven themselves craven and incapable of existing without destroying others in their insatiable quest for 'more.'
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. I have to agree with you
However the monster has control of both parties in a two party system.
I don't think it can be killed without reforming the Democratic party or the other alternative that I can not speak of without getting banned.

it would rhyme with "taber hardy" if I had the freedom to speak it's name.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. I agree.
Edited on Wed Jul-07-10 01:56 PM by Starry Messenger
Keynes was the compromise position IMO. Look how little time it took to roll back those reforms. Nowadays we'd think ourselves crazy-lucky if anything like a New Deal reform was put in place. The only reason we "got" the New Deal was because of threats from the Socialists. Your image of the sci-fi monster is spot on.

edit: image

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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. How can you 'destroy' Capitalism?
It seems to me that the natural instinct of humankind is to cut a good deal for oneself.

The only thing that kept people alive in the old Soviet Union was a thriving black market.

Even stalwart China is embracing free-market reforms and becoming a global colossus in the process.

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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Capitalism rewards the "natural instincts" of sociopaths.
It does not cut a good deal for the greater number of humankind. I'm not laughingliberal so I apologize for answering in her stead. I know that the Soviet Union and China had problems, but I honestly feel at this point that if their economic plans had been allowed to thrive on a level playing field instead of being under threat from the capitalist powers for their entire existence, we might have seen a radically different outcome in history. The capitalist powers have been busily at work throughout time to root out and destroy any attempts to establish any success with socialism in any form. Hell, even our own rather non-radical public school system is under attack these days from both Dems and Reps for being "socialist".
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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. You should talk to people who comre from failed Socialist states.
I've worked with many people from Russia, Poland, Serbia and Hungary.

To the last one, they all believe those systems were hell on earth.

I don't know how many times you can blame American Imperialism for the failures.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. Oh, you know people.
Well, naturally that changes everything.
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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #65
69. Rather than believe some anonymous internet poster, educate yourself. nt
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. Oh, I am. nt.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. Why? We're going to get to witness a failed capitalist state up close and personal.
I can't think it will be any prettier.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. "Socialist" states???!!!! Why do you call those Stalinized bureaucratic regimes socialist?

They didn't have a capitalist economy, however, they also didn't have democratic rights and majority control over the state and economy which are essential to socialism.
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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. I wouldn't have made a difference...
Majority (read poor) control over the state and economy = massive wealth redistribution = flight of capital = eventual failure.

I find it richly ironic that our mostly lassez-faire economic system is arriving at the same exact result (eventual failure) by a completely different process.

Just my $0.02.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Your response is yet another demonstration of how little is understood by
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 04:08 PM by Better Believe It
the great majority of honest liberals/progressives regarding socialist theory and history.

I'm not knocking you. I think you're yet another victim among millions in this capitalist economic/educational system.

It's just another example of how our educational system pretty much ignores and doesn't teach that economic/political history starting in elementary school and high school.

What we almost exclusively read and study in school regarding the history of Marxism, socialism, Stalinism, Social Democracy, etc., are books written by hard core anti-Marxists! I'm sure we can learn a lot from them about socialism!

Just think for a moment about what books you have read written by some of the greatest and best know Marxists in the past century, foreign and domestic.

Books and speeches by people like Rosa Luxemburg, Gene Debs, Big Bill Haywood, Trotsky, Ernest Mandel or Fidel Castro.

Can you even find many or any of the numerous books written by the above in your local school library or public library?

Those are slim pickens I bet!

All I can do is suggest that you read literature written by pro-Marxists in order to get a more accurate and balanced picture of their actual opinions and proposals.

After you've done that you can have more knowledgable and informed conversation or even debate with someone who is a "die-hard" socialist on DU!



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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. I generally trust what history has taught us. For example, the Danes
have a strong welfare state, high taxes, and a market economy, and they consistently rate as the happiest people on earth.

I'm the first to agree that we have a toally out-of-whack wealth/income distribution in the USA. It's going to get ugly if the pendulum doesn't swing the other way.

And isn't it at least possible that you have been snookered by Marxist idealogy? :)

Myself, I'm just a dumb engineer. I just look at the data.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Which one?
Edited on Fri Jul-09-10 01:00 PM by Better Believe It
"And isn't it at least possible that you have been snookered by Marxist idealogy?"

Which one?

Just as you have many different political currents among pro-capitalist organizations you have at least as many among those who classify themselves as "Marxists", including groups that have completely betrayed basic socialist principles of democracy, human rights and social equality.

But, to answer your question, I don't think so. I've haven't been successfully misled by those who have embraced reationary regimes in the name of advancing "socialism".
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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Thanks for your candor and civility, But I have to question the
moral validity (and I say this as an avowed atheist) of any socio-economic system that has, as its basic premises, that the individual is rather unimportant, and that all labor has equal value.

Likewise, there are a lot of very intelligent Libertarians (probably the most diametrically opposed idealogy), who place utmost value on individuality and private property, to the exclusion of all other values.

I have problems with both ends of the spectrum.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #57
67. I thank you for answering in my stead and far better than I might have. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #41
59. Americans have to talk politics with one another . . .
Edited on Wed Jul-07-10 02:23 PM by defendandprotect
and religion --

Americans used to be better informed because the Democratic Party had people in

neighborhoods who were there to answer questions and keep Democratic voters aware

of what was going on with the thinking within the party and with legislation --

That's long gone -- we've all been abandoned to right wing propaganda coming from

the TV and out of GOP mouths - like Limbaugh!


People are told they can't understand the "complications" of economics today --

"Experts" can complicate anything --

A society's economy is generated by the people -- their needs --

you can still use seashells if you want -- it's all about trading what is needed.

Imagine if we uninvented the dollar bill?


Today the dollar bill represents illegitimate power -- a highly mobile transportable

power which is "harvesting slave labor" all over the world.



We have to understand the frame work of the power over us --

Patriarchy -- it's underpinning which is organized patriarchal religion ---

and capitalism which was invented by the Vatican to run its Papal States when

Feudalism was no longer sufficient.

Look at the hierarchies of power -- the corporatising and militarizing now of even our

schools/colleges over the past decades!


The greatest threat to the right wing is liberals and free speech!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
56. Many have pointed out that regulation saved capitalism from itself . . .
unregulated captailism is merely organized crime --

but today our government is protecting and legitimizing those crimes with

bail outs, failure to use our anti-trust laws to break up monopolies --

and failure to prosecute those crimes.

We can't even get a cap on interest rates which are now over 26% while savings

accounts and CDs are barely paying 1% --

Federal Reserve is lending money to member banks at 0 interest or slightly above

and the banks are investing the money in Treasury notes paying 3.5% and 4% -- !!

Our government and elected officials -- all candidates -- are pre-BRIBED and pre-OWNED

by corporations.

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Hassin Bin Sober Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
44. k and r
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RATM435 Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
55. Obama piss it away .
whats the old saying lie down with dogs you get fleas there is a story over at crooks and lier's
about how these same corporations that obama is coddling are sitting on 2 trillion dollars
obama is book smart street smart i don't think so.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. Good question . . . how much of what BP has told him over 75 days does he really believe?
Edited on Wed Jul-07-10 02:28 PM by defendandprotect
If Obama believes any of it, we're in for a really huge disaster!

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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. You said it.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
68. This is very sad to me
I had such hope that he would do a better job of putting idiots and idiotic laws in their place. I hoped for an end to war, DADT, and the implementation of stiff regs on lobbyists, corporations and wall street. I hoped that he would be an over the top communicator and would keep us in the loop every step of the way. I had such hopes that the constitutional rape that was implemented under Bush would be reversed and that torture would become a thing of our very dark past.

Mr. President for all our sakes at the very least be an over communicator and tell us where you think we're headed instead of leaving us in the murky water wondering if there is any hope to repeal so many wrong decisions and give us a chance to really rise to the top and each handle and help move us progressively forward instead of sinking into the morass with those who can't or don't think about anything but puffing up their egos.

Please, you really have to do better and please hurry.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
78. If it is not already too late..
... it's so close it doesn't matter. Obama had a once in a generation chance to be a relevant president, and he blew it.

The health care reform bill is bad but the financial reform bill is truly laughable. It does nothing to fix anything. this game is going to continue until the country is on its knees and the pols have no choice but to enact real reform.

That will take several years but it is coming.
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-10 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
82. Obama is one of the financial elites.
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