Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Excuse me for not feeling patriotic

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
SocialistLez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:23 AM
Original message
Excuse me for not feeling patriotic
I haven't felt patriotic in quite some time.

If I had the money, I'd probably be living in Canada.

Excuse em for not feeling patriotic about a country that:
allows others to profit off the suffering of others (health care industrial complex, military industrial complex, prison industrial complex, etc.)
does not guarantee health care for everyone, regardless of ability to pay
does not provide a good K-12 education
does not guarantee full employment or make an attempt to have full employment
has a corrupt legislative branch (Congress)
is engaged in two wars that we won't win
racially profiles its own citizens (War on Drugs)
locks up more people than any other country in the world
has allowed itself to be corrupted by Big Business
does not treat everyone equally under the law
hardly gives a damn about its own citizens


That is all.
I am sure many of you can add more to the list but I am sure you get where I'm going with this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unhappycamper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Recced back to zero.
Looks like you have some unreccers on your case.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DarthDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I Recced It Too

At +4 now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. Thanks for pointing that out with the 1st response. Otherwise I would never have known.
Especially 2 minutes after the thread had posted.

You post such great threads, so couldn't you have found something more important to say with the first response other that to point out UnRecs? :shrug:

I've seen this done and then the next day the thread was on the front page with over 100 Recs. A day from now nobody will be able to either Rec or UnRec this thread, so what will it mean then? But a response will always kick it to the top of its forum. Of course, you know this already.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
116. Thank you for the reminder.... gave it my one rec to give.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
134. Unrec! How DARE you question this country on the anniversary of its founding?
Blind patriotism, that's what makes this country great, especially today! :patriot:

Pointing out the flaws of the United States and expressing how you feel about it? Unacceptable! Don't you know we live in the greatest country on Earth? No facts or data or information clearly proving the contrary can change that!

:sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #134
140. Think I actually saw many less flags today . . .
went thru quite a few towns here in Central NJ today -- saw very little

of flags! Maybe the country is waking up?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. Feeling patriotic is nothing - doing something to make things better is patriotic
Edited on Sun Jul-04-10 08:28 AM by stray cat
and if you don't do it why should anyone else - and those who do want to remake it into something you despise will win and deserve to because they care enough about their vision (even a bad one) to make it happen


It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. Teddy Roosevelt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
46. exactly . . . . like voting for some change
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #46
97. didn't we do that in '08?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #97
114. I thought so.....
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #97
166. we thought we did . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #46
120. When all we can come up with is voting and protests that don't work, we are screwed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
89. Well said
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
94. That's why you back Progressive action, right?


Yep, some people DO things!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
113. Great TR quote
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #113
162. here are some quotes by TR you don't often see, and reveal him, along with
the rest of this book, to be a far more 'complicated' figure, shall we say, than most people realize:



THE IMPERIAL CRUISE

A Secret History of Empire and War

By James Bradley



James Bradleys incendiary new book about Theodore Roosevelt is not really packed with secrets. Much of the material it discusses has long been hidden in plain sight. But Roosevelt biographers often subscribe to certain orthodoxies, and one of them is this: When Roosevelt made noxiously racist and ethnocentric remarks about Anglo-Saxon greatness, so what? He was just voicing the tenets of his time.


Mr. Bradley, the author of Flags of Our Fathers, does not simply cite Roosevelts egregious talk. He presents this much-ignored aspect of Roosevelts thinking with sharp specificity (I am so angry with that infernal little Cuban republic that I would like to wipe its people off the face of the earth, Roosevelt wrote in 1906) and then goes on to make a much more damaging point, angrily and persuasively connecting Roosevelts race-based foreign policy miscalculations in Asia. His thesis in The Imperial Cruise is startling enough to reshape conventional wisdom about Roosevelts presidency.

.............

If racism is nothing new, Mr. Bradleys readers may still be surprised at the xenophobic ugliness of the photos, letters, cartoons, lyrics and political speeches cited here. And if, for instance, American use of waterboarding against turn-of-the-century Filipino prisoners is not unknown (it was the subject of a New Yorker article last year), neither is it common knowledge. Nor, perhaps, are the lyrics to The Water Cure, a vintage United States Army marching song: Shove in the nozzle deep and let him taste of liberty/Shouting the battle cry of freedom. The toughest parts of this book re-reveal things we should already know.

Mr. Bradley builds The Imperial Cruise around the public relations event that its title describes: a 1905 voyage of the liner Manchuria during which the first daughter, Alice Roosevelt, and the future President William Howard Taft, then Roosevelts secretary of war, docked in the countries that this book describes.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/books/19book.html




can't recommend this highly enough.

here's an excerpt....

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/books/excerpt-imperia...


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #162
174. I did see in a TV bio that he was a vociferous war-monger...
and nothing made him happier than going off to fight the Spanish-American War. He is quoted as saying he would leave his sick and dying wife in order to be a soldier.

Sad that it took the death of his son to change his attitude on that.

As you said, ...a very complicated man.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
118. Wow, you hit that nail on the head.
There have been some here trying to interest people in trying new strategeries, but it comes to nothing.

THAT is the real telling point.

Very, very sad. :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
155. Yes well, that is against the law and that man is either rich and everything is just fine,
or he is struggling to survive or in jail.

The doing is the key, but what is left to do is terrible and we're not there yet.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DarthDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. Fight Against It

I think your list is largely accurate, especially the part about selling out to corporate interests. But the answer is to fight it through the democratic process - - that's the essence of patriotism.

Just my $0.02 and NOT an attack on your views. I get your frustration. The Terminator's attempt to use CA state workers as pawns the other day by cutting their salaries to minimum wage (or eliminating all pay for professionals such as state-employed doctors and lawyers) was one of the most depressing news items I have seen in a while, excepting the Gulf crisis.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SocialistLez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I didn't see it as an attack on my views. =]
That news about minimum wage for state workers was pretty depressing.
He is just making things worse for the state of CA.
Sure you save money now but when these people start having their houses foreclosed on and such, it won't be pretty.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LiberalLoner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Great post. You see things very clearly and write so well. I'm depressed and
frustrated by all of this too. I used to really believe that we as a people were generous and caring - I bought the myths back when I was a kid - for awhile there when I was 8, 9, 10, I believed we were on the way to making a better world and I had hope. I haven't had much hope since then. Less hope every year. But I'm grateful for every person who is courageously fighting to try to make things better. I agree the news from California was jaw-dropping. Just unbelievable. This can't possibly end well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DarthDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
22. I'm Glad :)
Thanks for taking my post in the spirit it was intended.

We moved to CA early last summer, but my parents have lived here for well over 20 years, and I lived here with them for a while, so I've always felt a California connection. You might have seen that the state officer in charge of implementing the wage order successfully blocked it by arguing (in a hilarious irony - - this guy sounds like he's brilliant) that the state payroll computing system couldn't handle the change. And I don't think there's any real danger that the salary cut will ever take effect - - it was just a stupid threat. But it was very, very, very scary. The only way to fix California is to repeal Proposition 13 (here's one site dedicated to the effort) or get 2/3 of the Assembly and the Senate, as well as a Democratic governor, so that taxes can be raised. The ridiculous term limits on the state legislature, which enfeeble it and strengthen the governor, need to go as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SocialistLez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I agree with you on Prop 13.
I also think it shouldn't take whatever the amount is in the state legislature to raise taxes.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
38. "...fight it through the democratic process..."
And what process would that be? Voting? On electronic voting machines that are mostly owned by one corporation? The democratic process has been compromised & corrupted. And from the democratic party on this critical issue? Crickets.

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery..." Zappa
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DarthDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. This Type of Defeatism . . .

. . . doesn't seem to accomplish anything. If you really believe that everything is so hopeless, hide under the bed while the rest of us try to change things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. Your idealism will accomplish as much as hiding under a bed.
After the 2004 election, you couldn't visit this site without seeing multiple links to BradBlog throughout the day. Now that the dems are back on top, the issue has been largely forgotten. You spout off platitudes about fighting within the democratic process, all the while ignoring that it's as rigged as Vegas.

How are we going to overcome the electronic voting system, when the party that supposedly represents the People doesn't even raise the issue when they are in the majority? How are we going to get the biggest 'voting' segment of the population - the non-voters - to care about this issue, when they don't even go to the polls? How are we going to get honest reporting on electoral inconsistencies with a media that is as corrupt as the rest of the system?

What you call defeatism, I call reality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DarthDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. And I Say, Work to CHANGE Your Reality

Stop whining on a message board and fight. I don't subscribe fully to black-box conspiracies (how did Obama get elected? How did Al Franken win? Etc., etc.), but if that's what you believe, I respect that, so do something about it. That's better than carping about it and dissing others for their views. And by the way, I'm not an "idealist." There's a middle ground.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. By educating people about this critical issue, I am working to change reality.
I didn't diss anyone. I just pointed out that the system is rigged & expressed frustration at what appears to be an insurmountable obstacle of apathy. You however, called me a whiner & told me to crawl under a bed. x( You're the one dissing others for their views.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DarthDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Okay, Sorry

I apologize.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Accepted!
As for your question as to how Obama won, I think TPTB disliked the McCain/Palin ticket so badly, that they let the People's choice stand. That's just my opinion & not based on anything concrete. TPTB love that the teabaggers continue to vote against their own best interest, but they don't want them in charge!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #48
159. Calling people expressing legitimate, real criticisms "whiners" doesn't do a damn thing to change
reality either.

Talking about & coming to consensus on what the problems actually ARE & why they are happening is quite an important part of "changing reality," & calling people names for that = shutting down that discussion via the use of shaming tactics.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #159
184. Neither does incessant whining and negativity.
There is a difference between criticism focused on finding solutions, and never ending complaints meant only to perpetuate an atmosphere of negativity, defeatism and "poor me".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donquijoterocket Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #47
148. And what you call reality I call cowardice.
Just because you don't see the links to Brad Blog doesn't mean it's gone away nor that any of us have forgotten that the basic processes of governance are some of those in greatest need of reform and that that's likely to be some of the toughest alterations we can attempt.So keep your head wherever it's at and call that view "reality" meanwhile some of the rest of us are going to be out in what you call"reality" trying our best to change it.Anybody not willing to fight that fight has no real idea of what reality is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #148
180. ~sigh
Another belittling response from someone who didn't bother to add anything constructive to the discussion of the issue. :eyes:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
121. Ah, yes, it had to come...... badmouthing those who see through the illusions.
You make assumptions.... those who see through the illusiona may actually be doing a lot more than you. We don't know that, because we don't know what they are doing, and we don't know what *you* are doing.

But the assumption makes you feel superior.

Now *That* is a big help in the giant scheme of things, isn't it?

"United We Stand" :rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #121
143. If they were actually "doing something" about it....
They wouldnt be in here trashing the place they claimed they were trying to fix. That sure looks like working to undermine your efforts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #38
51. I think it was Stalin who said
something to the tune of, "it isn't the people who vote that count, its who counts the votes." Nowadays they don't even have to wait until the polls are closed to declare a winnah, they only have to pre-set the machines to accomplish their intent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SocialistLez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #51
77. I've never heard that quote but it makes so much sense. NT
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #77
82. I was paraphrasing. Here's the exact quote:
It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.
Joseph Stalin

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/josephstal10...

And yes, it makes perfect sense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SocialistLez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #82
87. Reminds me of something I heard from Orwell Rolls in His Grave re: the media
"What you want in a media system is ostensible diversity that conceals an actual uniformity."

Joseph Goebbels
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. He'd be so proud of American media!
Or maybe he'd be jealous that Murdoch and Co. did a better job of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #38
122. You're so right.... all the great movements in the past that actually accomplished something
did a lot more than "work through the system".

Why can't we develop the creativity of action of the Abolitionists, the Suffragettes, the Civil Rights movment of the 50s and 60s? All of them chose actions that were suited to the time and the problems.

All we can think of is continuing to do what we did 40 years ago. Even though it isn't working, we keep expecting different results.

Are we not as smart and creative as the movement people of ages past?

Or do we just want to kvetch?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AnotherDreamWeaver Donating Member (917 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #122
132. I think what happened to the Black Panthers and Earth First! quiets the crowd
The infiltration and conflict that is created by those in power makes for distrust. There was a peace group in Fresno, Ca. that found out they had been infiltrated by someone in law enforcement when he died in a motorcycle accident and they saw his picture in the paper. Judi Bari with Earth First! won her law suit against the FBI (she died before the trial ended, but her daughter got the award I understand.) The FBI guy who was first on scene when the bomb went off under her car seat had led a "pipe bomb training" just a few weeks before, and had set off bombs in three vehicles. Now what was that all about? Those who get to noisy seem to have accidents. Or how many reporters revealing corrupt politics or law enforcement have been found to have "committed suicide", some by shooting themselves twice in the head?

But there are brighter things to talk about. We may try to work for a positive change, not just 'protest', but those working to feed the hungry, like "Food Not Bombs" even gets harassed. But we have to do what we can within the limits we set to keep ourselves "safe".

I'm not sure how to create a new system, but maybe the solar pulse I have heard may be coming will erase all the computer data on the globe, cars and planes with computers fail operate. A new system would just fall in our laps. What might we make of it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scruffy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #122
152. You are so right
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
157. However the Terminator did go to Washington DC last year
Edited on Mon Jul-05-10 02:38 AM by truedelphi
And ask Geithner to loan the state o f Calif. some 20 billion.

Given that the good people of Calif. give $ 1.00 for every 73 cents that comes back to them, this request for our getting some needed money is long over due.

However Geithner refused. Meanwhile, over the last four or five weeks, Bernanke has been setting up plenty of accounts to help the European bankers deal with the economic crisis being faced there.

Something is very wrong with this picture. The Federal government has all sorts of money - another 30 billion just went out the door to make sure that DynCorp and Blackwater are being paid.

But there is nothing in the coffers of the state of California. Schwarzenegger does not have access to the Fed Reserve printing machine. The California legislators are dragging their feet about passing a budget. Maybe the governor figures if all the state workers start screaming at their legislators, something will get done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WVRICK13 Donating Member (930 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
167. We Do Need To Fight
through a democratic process in order to maintain stability. The question is how can we do that when our politicians are bought and owned by corporations? I believe we need 6 year terms for all politicians and a one term limit with elections replacing 1/6th of Congress every year.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
6. I put my flag out this morning.
I'm not too thrilled with what's going on in this country either, but I'm not giving up on it. Generations of my family have been here since the Revolutionary War (and fought in it, I might add). Their sacrifices mean something to me.

AND - I dislike the word patriotic, as it gets throw around and abused by the Right, as if somehow representative of their ill-conceived and twisted interpretations of our Constitution.

This is my home, I want it to be better and as a liberal, intend to continue working towards fixing the problems we have instead of throwing up my hands and declaring it's a lost cause. I'm not at that point yet.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Hear hear
:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mudoria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
50. Well said!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dr Morbius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
43. You know what? Fuck them. Let's take the word "patriot" back.
Let's force them to stop us from taking it back.

I'm with you; quitting guarantees failure. Continued effort promises the possibility of success. Giving up on America is not an acceptable option.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
64. This is my kind of subthread
:applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
56. I put out my flag too!


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
69. Well said!
My family has been here since the 1760s and fought in the Revolutionary War as well.

I'll never stop fighting for the betterment of my country!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
conturnedpro09 Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
81. This patriotic liberal put his flag out too!
God bless America! I hope everyone has a happy and healthy 4th of July!

:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. GLBT Americans are treated like second or third class citizens
And, women also often are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SocialistLez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. That is sort of what I referenced to in: all citizens are not treated equally
I am for marriage equality since it seems like the only thing the LGBT community is fighting for and we have a chance of winning.

I'd much rather go beyond marriage.

www.beyondmarriage.org
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. Some don't even regard GLBT Americans as worthy of being citizens, some
would stone GLBT Americans to death, that is how bigoted and racist this country is IMO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SocialistLez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Stone us? Nah, I think they'd much rather shoot, hang, etc.
Stoning takes too long.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. But stoning would be more painful, I think of them as so cruel and heartless. I would
not put it past some of these people to start extermination camps if they came to power, they are made of the same evil cloth as those who conducted the inquisitions. I have often thought in my lifetime that many citizens one day might have to flee America for asylum in other countries. I think of the US as a rather unstable bellicose country.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
123. Exactly. And the same with poor people. We're all bottom of the barrel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
9. Patriotism is highly overrated
Edited on Sun Jul-04-10 08:40 AM by lunatica
When I think of patriotism I think of teabaggers. It is unjustified militaristic jingoism based on hatred and fear towards the other. In any country.

Patriotism has nothing to do with loving your country because you can do that and still love the world it's a part of. Bah to patriotism! It's divisive and the excuse and rationalization for wars and violence in order to acquire what others have. Our government's penchant to go to war is a manifestation of the shadow side of this country which covers it greed and hatred by invoking patriotism.

True love of your country is when you can see where it shines and where it needs work and you do your best to fix its faults in your wish to make it the best it can be. But even that idea has been snatched by the military in their recruitment ads. Be the best you can be. As if the best you can be is a killing machine for corporate benefit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DarthDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. GREAT Post

So true about the jingoism. Appropriate during, say, World War II. Not really so much at other times. And it's NOT the same as supporting the troops, of course.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. Excellent. I also listened briefly to some of the blah blah blah patriotic
speeches recently, they left me empty and hollow... hollow words and talking points. I used to feel inspired by the USA but not much so anymore for reasons as you outlined.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
160. hollow is indeed the word.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
66. +1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
75. +1 for your post and a kick for this thread.
Reading everyone's posts on this thread reminds me that there are people who are not caught up in the insanity. Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassicLiberalRoss Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
98. How long d'you think the United States would survive...
-- without a functioning military? Forget about years or months, lunatica, or even weeks... how many DAYS do you think we'd survive if we just decided, spontaneously, to lay down our arms?

My guess is... twelve.

Smart Liberals are realists.

Naive Liberals believe that everyone, everywhere, given the chance, can be reasoned with.

And history be damned.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #98
141. YES!! Let's burn every village to save it -- eh .. . save ourselves . . . before they come here!!
Edited on Sun Jul-04-10 10:04 PM by defendandprotect
Sadly -- America is the terrorist nation --

and we're in the same gene pool which gave us the genocide vs the native American

with all its brutality and cruelty --

and the enslavement of African Americans here -- and another 100 years of brutal Segregation!!

What's our kharma like after having dropped nuclear weapons on civilians in Japan -- against

all advice of military officials!

Vietnam?

1 million Muslims dead now in Iraq -- bombing Iraq for 20+ years -- ?

and every other farce from Panama to Afghanistan?

This MIC needs to be overturned -- as IKE made clear decades ago!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassicLiberalRoss Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #141
146. Satire, right?
Has to be. I'll just assume that it is.

HAPPY 4TH OF JULY!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #146
153. Unfortunately -- truth, not satire . . .
Happy Independence Day --

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassicLiberalRoss Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #153
154. I wish the Republic many more!
Edited on Mon Jul-05-10 01:26 AM by ClassicLiberalRoss
Kind of interesting, though, that you refused to respond to my question (although, to be fair, I had addressed it to another poster, but still...)

So here it is again: How long, in your estimation, would the United States survive without a military?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #154
156. How long will it survive with a MIC . . . ???
Edited on Mon Jul-05-10 02:09 AM by defendandprotect
that's probably more the question as they prepared for decades to

militarize even the skies!!

Despite your confidence in a MIC, we're much more threatened by Global Warming --

as the Pentagon confirmed to W quite a ways back . . . they assured him "more of

a threat than terrorism" to the nation.

As you can see we're in a near-Depression stage, if not in one already and they are

weakening the nation further by attacking domestic programs while remaining in two

wars which are bankrupting the Treasury! What sense does that make? None, of course.

I didn't "refuse" to respond to your question -- the answer should be obvious --

What's the MIC now that we know of? $700 billion and rising every year?

What if we cut that figure in half -- how long could we survive?

We have about 1000 times the nuclear weapons that any other nation has -- and we've

actually dropped three of them on civilians!

The quesiton should be with such ragged kharma, what will our fate be?

We've been bombing the Iraqis for almost 30 years now -- killed half a million of their

children first time around -- and 1 million Muslims this time around!

Who will have mercy on us?

Live by the sword, die by the sword --

Violence only breeds more violence --


And I'm sure that the idea of demobilizing would be to just junk the whole system in

one day!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassicLiberalRoss Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #156
158. I take your point, the Military Industrial Complex is a valid concern...
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower was correct about that and it certainly needs watch-dogging -- but my question to you still stands: How long do you estimate the United States would survive without a military?

(The answer is it wouldn't, but I'm anxious to hear YOUR thoughts)

And just to respond to a few of your other points: Since 1945 the United States has resorted to deploying TWO nuclear weapons on civilian populations and not the three you alluded to in your post (where the hell was the third one, exactly? I'm sure you're ready to tell me)

But speaking about the two that fell on Japan... what else should we have done to end the war, my friend? NOT dropped the bombs that together claimed 100 thousand lives but that saved at least ONE MILLION? (And yes, it is well known that a land invasion on the Island of Japan would have claimed more than a million Japanese and American lives combined, just ask your vaunted Dwight David Eisenhower)

So with that in mind... WHAT SHOULD WE HAVE DONE TO END THE WAR?




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #158
183. You're being obsessive . . . but I'll try one more time -- happily --
Edited on Mon Jul-05-10 03:06 PM by defendandprotect
If you demobilized -- and I gave a huge clue in the last line of my prior post --

it certainly wouldn't be done overnight -- and it would be done along with other nations.

What about simply getting rid of nukes -- gradually -- ?

What about bringing back the troops that we kept overseas after WWII -- ?

How about simply NOT expanding our military bases any further in Iraq or Afghanistan -- ?

How about we stop building Taj Mahal Embassies used more for war than diplomacy costing

the American taxpayer huge sums needed at home -- ?

STOP pushing Star Wars and the militarization of the skies -- ?

That's another huge money trap -- hundreds of billions -- trillion over last decades -- !!

And how about stopping new war mongering all over the world -- ??

And how about stopping our protection of and financing of Israel's warmongering all over

the ME -- ??

Those are simple things to be done which don't effect our safety --

Let's be honest, after the Berlin Wall fell we had no enemies in the world -- as Colin Powell

and Condi Rice say clearly in video -- things were so peaceful we'd have to go out and find enemies!

And we did!

Do I think that we would suffer attacks? No ... Who is going to attack us?

"The Russians are Coming! The Chinese are Coming!" are all Newt Gingrich rw fearmongering --

unfortunately it works.

If W had told anyone that it was actually the Russians who did 9/11, we'd still be rolling on

the floor laughing. Our problems with threats to the US are from within --

and from Global Warming.


Of course, you are possibly also asking how the US would survive without the MIC economic base?

Also think that's nonsense . . .

In fact, many have looked at the world and and where we are now vs the industrial revolution

and corporatism and clearly we would have been ahead of the game -- and still have the planet --

had we never ventured forth into the exploitations of nature via capitalism/corporatism.

And that includes the horrific destruction by the MIC of nature -- starting with atomic weapons

which very likely have also contributed to Global Warming--

Demobilizing would be gradual -- and we have to kick capitalism in the ass and get rid of it --

It's simply another form of violence -- economic violence.



And just to respond to a few of your other points: Since 1945 the United States has resorted to deploying TWO nuclear weapons on civilian populations and not the three you alluded to in your post (where the hell was the third one, exactly? I'm sure you're ready to tell me)

My apologies -- the third one was the one tested and NOT used on Japan but certainly it did

damage soldiers, the environment -- and "downwinders."


The Hiroshima bomb, a gun-type bomb called "Little Boy," was made with uranium-235, a rare isotope of uranium extracted in giant factories in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. The atomic bomb was first tested at Trinity Site, on July 16, 1945, near Alamogordo, New Mexico. The test weapon, "the gadget," and the Nagasaki bomb, "Fat Man," were both implosion-type devices made primarily of plutonium-239, a synthetic element created in nuclear reactors at Hanford, Washington.<15>

The reason I mentioned THREE, however, had to do with another theory -- i.e., that the first

two atomic weapons were created by the Germans and taken over by us -- and that the third one was

actually made here. Something I didn't get into in that post, subsequently.

We also exploded many nuclear weapons later on the Bikini Islands and many other testing sites --

we exploded them at ground level and under the oceans -- and below ground level.

AND, in the 1960's we also exploded nuclear weapons in outer space --

some think we were trying to knock out the Van Allen Radiation Belts!

And W also exploded another huge bomb after he took office in waters off of Florida, as I recall/?


But speaking about the two that fell on Japan... what else should we have done to end the war, my friend? NOT dropped the bombs that together claimed 100 thousand lives but that saved at least ONE MILLION? (And yes, it is well known that a land invasion on the Island of Japan would have claimed more than a million Japanese and American lives combined, just ask your vaunted Dwight David Eisenhower)

If you lead a very sheltered life you could think that -- Eisenhower and many other top officials

were completely against nuking Japan. "Immoral" among many other questions. And unnecessary.

After six months of intense strategic fire-bombing of 67 Japanese cities the Japanese government ignored an ultimatum given by the Potsdam Declaration

We were in little danger from Japan -- as our military well knew -- and there are many interesting

books on this topic. Japan was finished.


So with that in mind... WHAT SHOULD WE HAVE DONE TO END THE WAR?

Well, here's one of the most right wing sources you can probably find ... John McCloy --

To the end of his life, McCloy felt "we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping the bombs." The use of nuclear weapons on Japan "was not given the thoroughness of consideration and the depth of thought that the president of the United States was entitled to have before a decision of this importance was taken." (McCloy quoted in James Reston, Deadline, pg. 500).



http://www.doug-long.com/mccloy.htm



I'd just add these two points on edit . . . do you think that IKE's warnings about the MIC

came because he was frightened of reducing the MIC, or because of the threat of the MIC to

America and the world?

and two -- here's something to think about that tends to stay in your mind --

After we nuked the Bikini Islands, a native woman from those islands made this comment . . .

"Americans are really smart about really stupid things."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
129. Here Here!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Newsjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
10. Nationalism
It's sad that patriotism has become conflated with nationalism in the USA. DU has some of some of the truest patriots I've seen.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off in the 4x4 to the tractor pull where me and the missus are gonna stop at the Walmart Supercenter on the way to pick up a case of Bud Light to share with the kids. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
11. Yes, but they are FREE!
And even those prisoners, they have FREEDOM to look forward to. That's something to keep them going. They can look forward to being FREE to

Marry a lover of the same sex
Use cannabis for relaxation or medical purposes
Walk the beaches of Louisiana
Photograph cops who are abusing their authority
Visit the Grand Canyon
(well, as long as they are white)
Call in to a conservative talk show and express a differing opinion
Take their favorite soda with them on the airplane

I'm sure you can think of many, many more FREEDOMS that we should be thankful for today!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
12. understandable
On a day like this I still dream of what America can be. Been doing that since I was a youngster.
And sometimes I compare what we are compared to others.
But, admittedly, the trend has been backwards since that asshole Reagan.

Enjoy some Paul Simon American Tune for the 4th
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_sl4r0eGVY
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
14. I get where you're going with this
It's the July 4th version of the annual Thanksgiving day "look-at-me-I'm-an-edgy-contrarian-collective-guilt-a-thon".

It's the assertion that to acknowledge, let alone admire, the insanely courageous act of a small group to declare their separation from an oppressive superpower by non-violent means is totally without merit, because look where we are today.

As if observing one good aspect of our history somehow negates or ignores or denies the many problems we have. Many humans have the ability to grasp the concept of duality - that one can have both positive and negative characteristics.

I'm sure it'll disappoint you to find out you're not actually breaking any laws by not 'feeling patriotic'. There there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
29. I don't think you get it at all
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:12 AM
Original message
Another opinion you won't be arrested for.
:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
35. Is it a sad thing to you that people don't get arrested for opining?
I find that is a good thing myself. If I wanted to get arrested I would do much more than declare myself unpatriotic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Oh for fuck sake. Talk about not getting it.
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. So you think people like me should shut up because we have the
Edited on Sun Jul-04-10 09:31 AM by lunatica
freedom not to? Should people who dare to express the sentiments they have every right to express shut up because they aren't being arrested?

What is there to get 'for fuck's sake'?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
63. Where did I say that?
You really did not read and/or comprehend my post.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
backtomn Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #63
117. Don't lose sleep over it......
....some people are just unhappy when others are happy. They are so sure of America's unworthiness that even this day and its meaning are unacceptable. Any positive thoughts about this country are a sign of selling out. I can protest and disagree, but still see the benefits of this imperfect union, even if others can't.

Enjoy the day.....we should. We can deal with the other issues tomorrow. That is what adults and Americans do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #14
36. Yes, every year. Next comes the anniversary of the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The second-guessing of the Truman Administration's decision to use the atomic bomb to bring World War II to an end.

:nuke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #36
70. I love those threads.
I always try to expose the woo-woo crowd to real history.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
39. .
:applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
67. -1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
great white snark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
72. Well said
We can be both good and bad. I think the good greatly outweighs the bad so today I celebrate....for more good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
16. Yep, a very good list. I hope it turns around. Money controls the power in
Edited on Sun Jul-04-10 09:22 AM by RKP5637
this country. And frankly in the big picture they have little to lose by neglecting the good of the entire country IMO. Until we get the money and bribery out of our gov. not a whole lot is going to change IMO. We need publicly financed elections. And cut out the crap of corporate donations, all of the shenanigans and the tremendous amount of money that flows into the inept MSM.

We also need to cut the enormous amount of money flowing into the MIC, there again is a money magnet and power.

The typical citizen is becoming voiceless and frankly in the way of the NEW USA, Inc., expendable. Proof of that abounds.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
90-percent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
21. These are the good old days
After we go through the next two election cycles with the power of the Supreme Court Citizen's United decision of last January, we'll all be living in a full scale replica of Joe Stalin's Russia at the height of his powers.

The monsters all of us fools will be electing will be increasing their size of the pie they are shrinking and the rest of us will be selling our organs to keep from starving.

-90% Jimmy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. Yeah, that's my feeling too. I think DU is going to be stunned by what happens
over the next two election cycles. Our majorities we had have been squandered IMO. The democrats needed to join and move forward in lock/step motion, but instead they argued among themselves, broke rank and have given the republicans (or whatever this creepy party is now) the edge.

Americans are not known for being the most astute when they vote. As usual Americans often vote in the wrong people for the wrong reasons. Many don't even understand the issues, they vote by the latest sound bite, the latest attack ad, what their preacher told them and now many by what Palin, Beck and the herd told them.

This is becoming a very creep country, and I do seriously fear what citizens might be voting into power. Nixon, Reagan and Bush might look like saints compared to what we might have to endure in the future.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dr Morbius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
25. OK. You are excused. But please excuse me for feeling patriotic.
Because although it could legitimately be argued that America:

allows others to profit off the suffering of others (health care industrial complex, military industrial complex, prison industrial complex, etc.)
does not guarantee health care for everyone, regardless of ability to pay
does not provide a good K-12 education
does not guarantee full employment or make an attempt to have full employment
has a corrupt legislative branch (Congress)
is engaged in two wars that we won't win
racially profiles its own citizens (War on Drugs)
locks up more people than any other country in the world
has allowed itself to be corrupted by Big Business
does not treat everyone equally under the law
hardly gives a damn about its own citizens


It's also a country with a substantial number of people are trying to END the profiteering off the suffering of others. It's a country that WANTS to guarantee things like a decent education and healthcare and hasn't yet figured out how.

My daughter has been receiving a splendid public education, and she had special needs. I am a product of public education and I was approached by multiple excellent colleges when I briefly considered further education after high school (I couldn't afford it). My wife is a product of public education. Is public education as good as it could or should be? No. But please realize that I know from personal experience that not all public education is awful. Schaumburg, Illinois has EXCELLENT public schools. In terms of quality of education versus property taxes, Schaumburg is one of the best places in America to raise a child. The schools are innovative, professional and run as efficiently as possible. Public education can work, and does work in lots of places in America.

Look. Okay, the corporate overlords have their tentacles tightly wound around our government. They've prompted our government into two wars, created a prison-for-profit system, and deregulated everything so a half-dozen corporations can dominate every profitable market which exists. It sucks. But America is more than that, and our government is more than that.

Our government is also the DHS guy who's absolutely committed to protecting the country from a terrorist attack. It's also the soldiers who have the rotten luck of serving their country at this time, and putting on a uniform each morning that they know they might not live to remove. It's also your kid's teacher, and the cops who showed up with the ambulance when the old woman down the street had a heart attack. It's the lady at the Social Security Administration who processes requests for lost cards, verifying the IDs and making sure the information in the computer is correct. Government is the social security check you're someday going to wait for every month. Government is the local fire department.

Government, at many levels, actually does give a damn about the citizens. For every bad cop, there's a good one, probably a dozen. For every racist community, there is a progressive community that conscientiously does try to treat everyone fairly and equally. For every Republican, there's a Democrat. For all the bad things America does, America does some good things. America is an idea, in addition to being a nation or a government. That idea lives on, perhaps not in all Americans but in some. It lives in you and in me. We're here. We count. We want to do the right thing, despite opposition from the misnamed "right." We have failed often, and our successes seem bitter. But we can prevail if we continue to fight. We're America, you and me, as much as the big white buildings in the capital and the overpaid blowhards who work there. And I love America.

Happy fourth and please try to see the good side of us while you righteously fight against the bad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SocialistLez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. :)
From my personal experiences, public school isn't horrible. At the same time, I realized in my own school how those of us who pushed ourselves were treated and those who could care less were treated.
I received a world class education (IB) while other classmates were just an afterthought for their teachers.

I know not every community has a crappy public school.

I thank you for your post. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
27. actually, public schools provide a good K-12 education for most kids - don't buy the Duncan/Obama
union busting hype. Kids who put in the work and have family support at home do well for the most part.

Msongs
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #27
53. Problem with education is that
what they don't teach, you don't know. Pretty convenient, that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dr Morbius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #53
86. I'd say that part of a solid educational plan includes teaching the kids how...
...to educate themselves further. I am 48. I graduated high school at 18. I did not go to college. And yet I am considerably more educated than a high-school graduate because I've educated myself. America's students today are not necessarily being taught this, but it's the key. Teach them how to think and teach them how to learn; everything else is largely secondary.

They can't teach everything. A lifetime is not enough to amass all the knowledge there is in any given field, let alone 180 days a year, six or seven hours a day. It's more important to give the kids the skills than to try to teach them everything, I believe.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. Yes, teaching kids not only how to learn,
but to generate in them a love of learning, which includes constantly challenging them to keep their minds open to new, and even unpopular, ideas.

Like you, I am also primarily self taught and going on the premise that curricula is controlled by a branch of the federal government, my main question has always been, if you were the government, would you then teach students how to control you. So I asked a lot of inconvenient questions, especially in history and civics courses. I was pretty much a school teacher's worst nightmare.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dr Morbius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #88
103. Well then, as a fellow troublemaker, I bet the teachers remember us best!
:D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. I'm sure you're right,
although I never meant to come off as a know-it-all, even if that's how it seemed to them. Its just that I had read enough of the old books in our attic to know the teachers weren't telling the whole truth about a whole lot of things, which only made me want to dig deeper to find more of those hidden truths. I'm not finished doing that yet in my sixth decade of life, not by a long shot. But its much harder to hide the facts about who we really are with the world wide web at our disposal .... as long as one doesn't believe everything and keeps vetting the info until those facts line up like good little ducklings. Those "a-hah" moments when several isolated facts click together makes all the research worth the effort.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
40. I rec'd your unrec
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
31. I have to admit that if I had the money I would also go to Canada.
Although considering I am from the U.S. I'm not sure why they would want me.

When it comes to leaving the country of one's birth, the reasons for doing so are different for everyone and they are their reasons, personal to them, and nobody can tell them they are wrong.

There are people in the world who leave their countries to find a better life elsewhere for economic reasons, some for the opportunity to even have a life. My own family came to this country some 380 years ago from Great Britain in search of a better life and at that time it was a dangerous endeavor.

Historically there have been people who have left their native country due to religious persecution, oppression, or ethnic violence. In hindsight, who could tell those who fled pre WWII Germany, even early on before things got really bad. Although I'm sure at the time there were those Germans who questioned why they did flee, but likely most of those who stayed, died.

I wonder if when the Roman Empire was declining and crumbling if there would have been those Romans who would have left if there was anywhere else to go?

Yes, there are lots of reasons to leave and everybody has their own line where enough is enough and nobody can tell them their decision is wrong for them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
33. NO MATTER WHAT THE CORPORATIONS AND
THE SUPREME COURT DOES, I still love this great country of ours and wouldn't leave it. But I did really get upset this morning. I was checking our TCM and saw one of those old travel logs showing DC. They showed the Lincoln Memorial and made the statement that he saved the Union which was FOR THE PEOPLE - BY THE PEOPLE -AND OF THE PEOPLE.....I got so damn upset because of the congresses we have had, and because of the people of this country who continue to vote them in. They along with the five aholes on the Supreme Court have made this country FOR THE CORPORATIONS, BY THE CORPORATIONS AND OF THE CORPORATIONS. It is a damn shame that we the people don't have the guts to make a clean sweep of congress and put in people who also love this country. Ones who won't accept lobbyist money to fill their pockets to vote for corporations, make laws and rules to benefit corporations, and who do not allow such POS as Fox, Beck, Savage, and Rush rule the airwaves. That's my rant. AND WITH ALL ITS FLAWS I AM DAMN GLAD TO BE AN AMERICAN BORN IN THE USA.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Autumn Colors Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
34. DItto here - if I had enough $ to leave & not work, I'd be in New Zealand (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scrubthedata Donating Member (216 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
49. I feel the same as the poster, but one day a year I try to look on the bright side. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #49
59. I'm just here for the free food.
lol
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. LOL!! Happy 4th!
:hi:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. That's beautiful!
:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SocialistLez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
78. He he. I plan to make that into a protest sign for the anti-gay protestors
or for future tea bag protests.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #78
111. My retired buddy David in San Francisco
is the person who invented "I can't afford an actual sign" that he takes to all our protests to give people a chuckle. :hi:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SocialistLez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #111
177. There is one sign I've seen: I'm just here for the donuts. It had me laughing my ass off. NT
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
57. Yes, America totally and completely sucks
There isn't a single redeeming quality about this god-forsaken hell hole. It's the worst. Anybody who like America is either stupid or a kapitalist oligarch
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #57
85. So then, what are you doing here?
Just curious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #85
181. What am I doing here?
I'm trying to master the art of conveying thinly veiled sarcasm via typed comments on an internet message board without having to use the actual sarcasm emoticon.

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #181
185. Ah. Sorry, consider me spanked then!
As much as I appreciate good sarcasm, I am not always good at reading it. Carry on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
58. Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
62. I don't think Canada would take you FYI
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThatsMyBarack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
65. Neither am I
For all the same reasons.

Except I just posted THIS a few minutes ago! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
68. Every country has their shame and issues. I'm still happy and
proud to be an American.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
71. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
73. A cynic is one who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing
The Canadians don't want a lot of Americans immigrating. There are too many black and brown people in America.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
74. Patriotism, shmatriotism. I like fireworks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kurtzapril4 Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #74
92. Hell YEAH, Bette! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
76. Not an ounce of patriotism here either
Frederick Douglass' speech, this image:



and a rant I found online pretty much sums it up for me.

HAPPY CORPRAT DEPENDENCE DAY, America. Pfft.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
conturnedpro09 Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
79. *sigh* Only on DU... n/t.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #79
93. What is only on DU?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
conturnedpro09 Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
80. self delete.
Edited on Sun Jul-04-10 02:32 PM by conturnedpro09
Repeated post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ishoutandscream2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
83. Recommended. This country could do so much better
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
84. Patriotism is the will and the energy to make us better.
Not just wave a flag.

It is a verb.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sciguy Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
90. Well said.
Short, sweet, and to the point. Thanks!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
95. You're excused. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
96. i understand how you feel.
if we were young we would leave and move to a european country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
colsohlibgal Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
99. USA
We populated this nation the old fashioned way, we stole it from the Indians, we were the immigrants then. Manifest Destiny, God liked us best. Exceptionalism. We're better than everyone else.

Each day the rich get richer and the bulk of us are asked to sacrifice so the rich can get even richer. One way they reach to get rich is to use non connected, non rich people as cannon fodder. They control the message and the money and the MSM and Washington. Twisted Gordon Gekko type capitalism.

If I was 20 or 25 I'd look hard at moving to Scandinavia or France.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
100. On the 4th of July I suddenly had the craving for
Edited on Sun Jul-04-10 04:52 PM by AsahinaKimi
Mexican cuisine today. I don't know why. Went out to this place and had an enchilada, taco, and tostadas. Came with lots of refried beans, sour cream, cheese, and fresh veggies. The plate was huge, but I managed.


Late Tonight, I will have Sashimi, with edamame, if I am not still full. (Unlikely, as big as that platter was!!!)




I guess the only thing close to American that I am (barely) eating is a box of CRACKER JACKS! oh and yes, they still have a toy inside! XD
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
101. You forgot: letting BP pollute our oceans, Monsanto pollute our food,
Edited on Sun Jul-04-10 05:13 PM by earth mom
and big pharma poison babies with too many vaccines while the CDC and FDA turn their backs!

:grr:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Real Gone Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
102. "is engaged in two wars that we won't win" EXCUSE ME?
Iraq has been won. Sorry to dash your hopes for defeat there.

President Obama has even called Iraq a success. You may not agree with why we are there, but we won. We are occupation forces. Look up the definition.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #102
105. we pissed away thousands of lives and trillions of dollars there.. for what?
It was based on a lie. Oh, "we won". Whoop-de-fucking doo. I want that $9 Billion Dollars back that the GAO said were "totally unaccounted for" in Iraq. I want to know where all those spooky WMDs were. I want to know what the fucking POINT was.

Yay. We won. Goody.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Real Gone Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #105
108. No one said we were right
...but don't disrespect those who died by calling it a loss.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Calling Iraq a loss (or a win) is beside the point.
What it is is a waste and a crime. That point can be made without disrespecting the brave men and women who fought in that ignoble cause.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #108
126. The a few years after we leave (if we ever leave) it won't be a "win".
Well maybe for the defense contractors as they ramp up for the next "war".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #108
151. The disrespect was in sending them there in the first place.
Edited on Mon Jul-05-10 12:04 AM by Warren DeMontague
Did we defeat the military of Saddam Hussein? Yes, of course, no one thought we wouldn't.

However, like you said, now it's an occupation. How, precisely, does one "win" an occupation? Who are we supposed to be fighting? What are the yardsticks by which we measure "success"?

None of that was clearly defined, EVER, and frankly I don't give a shit WHAT people want to call it, the important thing is to bring those people home.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #105
144. Declaring victory and leaving..... an old game.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #102
119. I must have missed our Glorious Victory in Iraq.
Darn it! I guess "American Idol" was on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Real Gone Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #119
133. While you were watching American Idol, I was listening to
President Obama.

Mr. Obama called the US engagement in Iraq a success,


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0522/Obama-to-West-Po...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #133
186. Oh my god, you were a troll?
Wow. I never would have suspected.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #102
173. Wait 2-3 years..
... we haven't "won" anything.

As for what Obama says, at the end of the day he's just another politician trying to justify his bad decisions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
104. I'm patriotic; but that doesn't mean I wave the flag and rah-rah about how great we are.
It means I bust my ass as much as I can to make this a free country for ALL men and women that does not depend on slave labor to prosper.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #104
142. You and me both.
In fact we have alot to answer for, and fix. As long as you are engaged in doing something about it, you'll never get a complaint from me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
107. K & R nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
109. +16 trillion
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
112. patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel anyway... so fuck it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
115. Well said! K&R
Canada is a beautiful place...lived there for a while and would live there again in a heartbeat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
124. Patriotism is for fools and tea bagger repuke morans!
Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in evry age. Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnsons famous dictionary, patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. Ambrose Bierce

That pernicious sentiment, Our country, right or wrong. James Russell Lowell

My country right or wrong is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, My mother drunk or sober. G. K. Chesterton

Patriotism which has the quality of intoxication is a danger not only to its native land but to the world, and My country never wrong is an even more dangerous maxim than My country, right or wrong. Bertrand Russell

Patrioism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. George Bernard Shaw

Youll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. George Santayana

The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations. H.G. Wells

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. Patriotism is its cult. . . . Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for ones country which is not part of ones love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. Erich Fromm

One of the great attractions of patriotismit fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat, Bully and cheat, whats more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous. Aldous Huxley

Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudice and patriotism . . . Extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots Gordon Allport

It seems like the less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. Elbert Hubband

Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy. William Inge

Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority. Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. Goethe

Into the cultural and technological system of the modern world, the patriotic spirit fits like dust in the eyes and sand in the bearings. Its net contribution to the outcome is obscuration, distrust, and retardation at every point where it touches the fortunes of modern mankind. Thorstein Veblen

The standardization of mass-production carries with it a tendency to standardize a mass-mind, producing a willing conformity, not merely to common ways of living, but to common ways of thinking and common valuations. The worst defect of patriotism is its tendency to foster and impose this common mind, and so to stifle the innumerable germs of liberty. J.A. Hobson

2. Patriotism and War:

At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot. Jules Renard

No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism. Preserved Smith

Naturally the common people dont want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. Hermann Goering.


3. Patriotism and Religion:

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. Guy de Maupassant

God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed. Luis Buuel

To be patriotic, hate all nations but your own; to be religious, all sects but your own; to be moral, all pretenses but your own. Lionel Strachey

When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism! David Starr Jordan

4. The American Syndrome:

If you have a weak candidate and a weak platform, wrap yourself up in the American flag and talk about the Constitution. Matt Quay

How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be American before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries? It is really too easy a disguise for our shortcomings to dress them up as a form of patriotism. Edith Wharton

The 100 percent American is 99 percent an idiot. George Bernard Shaw

Treason is in the air around us everywhere. It goes by the name of patriotism. Thomas Corwin
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #124
164. where'd you get all them quotes? all in one place?
best post in a most excellent thread.

gonna send this to my flagwaving wingnut pals

thanks!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #164
182. Been collecting them from here and there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rury Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
125. I'm with you
I am working to improve my country, but until it gets to where I believe it should be and lives up to its ideals, I don't fly a damn flag on this day or any other!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rury Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #125
136. Excuse YOU, I'm not a "quitter"
I said I'm working to IMPROVE my country!
I just said I don't fly the flag because we have a hell of a long way to go!
Capiche??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
127. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
128. K and R because I feel the same way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
130. not much to feel patriotic about
but to look forward and celebrate it's potential... then act on it. That's true patriotism. Saying one loves their country, right or wrong is a bit brainwashed and stupid. It's the opposite of patriotism actually.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
131. WOW
Edited on Sun Jul-04-10 08:51 PM by humbled_opinion
Everything you mentioned can be fixed at the ballot box. Lets get busy.

Now I feel very Patriotic. When they take away our ability to vote the government that we want thats the day that I will feel Unpatriotic... Until then I reserve the ability to HOPE.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SocialistLez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #131
178. They have already taken some people's ability to vote.
In many states it's very hard for ex-felons to get the right to vote.
I think EVERYONE over the age of 18 should be allowed to vote, even if you're in jail, prison, or wherever.
As long as you are a citizen on this country, you should have the right to make decisions about what direction it is moving in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zenprole Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
135. Point of Order
A great post but, as part of any effort to turn back uber-control by corporations and the wealthy, the tone has to change. The biggest part of it is the 'excuse me' and other hesitant notes in posts, articles, and daily conversation.

The proper form of address isn't "excuse me," but "Here are the facts. Who's with me?" Loud and strong and as unapologetic as BP, the Supreme Court, Arne Duncan or, for that matter, Dick Cheney.

There's no one here to make change but us. If America can still change for the better, it won't be pretty, quick, or kind to the criminals, apparatchiks, and collaborators who've dragged it into the gutter. Here's to it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
137. misplaced --
Edited on Sun Jul-04-10 09:54 PM by defendandprotect
genocide vs the native American --

enslavement of the African here --

Certainly you were going to question all of its behavior --

post WWII begins to get sketchy again --

working to keep liberals out of government all over the world -- Europe/Japan --

resurrecting the Mafia to do that in Italy!

Questionable dropping of the apprehension and prosecution of Nazis --

Allen Dulles bringing in tens of thousands of them to America and using them to

found the CIA and funneling them into FBI and other branches of government!

McCarthy Era --

CIA coups all over the world --

Vietnam -- a huge lie --

Coup on JFK and our "people's" government --

All the Bush wars as the family alone defeated the "VN syndrome" -- !!

Panama, Gulf War I, perpetual bombing of Iraq -- and now Iraq and Afghanistan!

We're the terrorist nation --

and its sickening --



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
138. Once you understood what our government has done --
Edited on Sun Jul-04-10 10:06 PM by defendandprotect
You continue to question it all . . .

genocide vs the native American --

enslavement of the African here --

Certainly you were going to question all of its behavior --

post WWII begins to get sketchy again --

working to keep liberals out of government all over the world -- Europe/Japan --

resurrecting the Mafia to do that in Italy!

Questionable dropping of the rounding up and prosecution of Nazis --

Allen Dulles bringing in tens of thousands of them to America and using them to

found the CIA and funneling them into FBI and other branches of government!

McCarthy Era --

CIA coups all over the world --

Vietnam -- a huge lie --

Coup on JFK and our "people's" government --

All the Bush wars as the family alone defeated the "VN syndrome" -- !!

Panama, Gulf War I, perpetual bombing of Iraq -- and now Iraq and Afghanistan!

We're the terrorist nation --

and its sickening --



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eecumings Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
139. You would live in Canada?
I moved to Canada, became an imigrant, after GWAsswipe stole his second election. I prefer living in Canada.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #139
147. What is the process like?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #139
171. Good for you! Was it difficult?
We have a decent bank account, are both well educated and employable. I have had enough of living in OozeBeckistan. Is there a web site that describes the logistics?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WileEcoyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
145. Be of good cheer;
Goodness will prevail. The corporate fascist state will soon fall and we Democrats and Free thinkers will be there to pick up the pieces.

In the long run justice will arrive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
149. You are right, we really suck.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
150. Recommend highly. Thank you, SocialistLez. Today was the first
time in decades I didn't go to a celebration.

This year it feels like we are losing more freedoms than we are gaining.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
161. American exceptionalism is an insidious force that . . .
cultivates the worst of humanity's destructive tendencies -- war, inequality, environmental destruction, unemployment, and a whole lot more . . . and when coupled with religion, it may in time do more harm to the planet (and to humanity) than any other ideology in human history . . . every time I see a Hummer or an SUV with an American flag flying out the window and anti-whatever bumper stickers all over its ass end, I want to puke . . .

my country, right or wrong . . . when it's right, keep it right . . . when it's wrong, make it right . . . too bad most people only pay attention to the first five words . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
163. Yeah! Keep talking like this! We're sure to take 2010 and 2012 with that kind of rhetoric!
Electoral gold!

:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
165. America was founded on some noble (liberal) ideals
You can feel patriotic about those without having to shut up when she fails to live up to them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobburgster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
168. Funny how...
I posted something wishing we could go back to the ideals of our forefathers, and there was no interest on here. Guess it is better to wallow in the negativity, and wanting to run away.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jester Messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
169. I find myself overcome by apathy.
I'm burned out, couldn't give a damn if I wanted to. 7/4 was just another day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
brewens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
170. My flag still stinks after being dipped in shit for 8 years! I may
get that smell out and be able to fly it again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RoccoR5955 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
172. K & R n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RedRoses323 Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
175. Agree..
:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jbeing Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
176. Your Permission
I would like to send this to my elected representatives
(including the President). But I want your permission first.
Or, if you like, maybe you could send it to the White House.
Let me know. 

Until then, you have stated and framed the issues perfectly.

Thanks,

JBeing
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SocialistLez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #176
179. You can send it. I would have NO problem with that at all. NT
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu May 25th 2017, 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC