The death penalty for white collar corporate crimes

[bluestateguy]

I have made this suggestion in the past only to get shouted down by anti-death penalty people.

But the testimony of the anti-American Tony Hayward today should cause such people to reconsider.

The fact is this, white collar corporate criminals are every bit as dangerous as the worst Al Qaeda terrorists.

[SeattleGirl]

1. I won't shout you down, but I will disagree with you, because

I am not a proponent of the death penalty.

[AnArmyVeteran]

40. Im an opponent of the death penalty too, but we could use creative ways around it.

We could subject Tony Hayward to the same blast that occurred on the Deep Water Horizon rig, coat him in oil, and submerge him under the water for 6 hours and if he lived then fine. But if he couldn't take what he caused others to experience then so be it. But saying that, I am against the death penalty.

Oh yeah, and if he lived he would be branded on his forehead the letter "M" for murderer. If we're talking about old time justice we might as well go way back.

[sharp_stick]

2. As the rest of the world gets rid of the death penalty

you want to bring it back for crimes not considered for the death penalty for the last two centuries?

I need a facepalm graphic to put in here I think.

[Statistical]

3. Sad.

Why not death penalty for all crime.
The reality is death penalty is only used in the most severe of crimes right now (and in most parts of the world it doesn't exist).

We shouldn't be expanding the definition of what is a capital case.

I mean if Tony Hayword can be executed for criminal negligence that obviously equal protection under the law means that YOU also could be executed for criminal negligence.

If Bernie Madoff can be executed for fraud then all fraud (not just corporate fraud) is not a capital offense.


Not the world I want to live in. Thankfully the Supreme Court would find it Unconstitutional anyways.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. Not only do I oppose the death penalty but...

...what is this pushing people into execution chambers for being "anti-American"?

Tell me what capital punishment anti-Americanism laws you would like to have on the books the next time the GOP wins an election.

And by comparing them to al Qaeda are you going to demand Britain surrender them or face military invasion or are you just going to use drone strikes and Special Forces to hit their London homes and offices?

BP owes us and owes us big but let's not be ridiculous.

Absurd, just absolutely absurd.

unrecc'ed

[Angry Dragon]

5. I feel they should be tried for murder just the same

as any person. Just because they work for a corporation should not insulate them from prosecution

[Statistical]

8. Criminal negligence (even one that results in death) is not murder in any state in this country.

Had the rig been owned by an individual they would not be facing murder charges either.
Not ever instance where someone dies is murder. Murder has a very narrow and distinct definition.

[Angry Dragon]

12. Let me explain and then you can correct me where I am wrong

Bp has a history of violating safety procedures.
People have died because of this.
They violated safety procedures on the Deepwater knowing beforehand
that the possibility of something going wrong
people could die.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. People can always die

But murder requires "malice aforethought" not "shitbaggery aforethought."

BP has much to account for and I suspect they will be dancing on our hook for the next generation or two but let's be reasonable.

[Angry Dragon]

17. Do you feel that some of the execs should spend some time in prison??

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. More than likely.

I'm sure there are whole chains of responsibility that need to be seriously investigated and when found appropriate, prosecuted.

But what if a supervisor somewhere is on record saying, "Don't do that, it's not safe." (I don't know of any, I'm just sayin')?

Would such a person be spared the impending dragnet?

I want justice. I want the Gulf restored and I want people's livelihoods back.

But I don't want to prosecute just to make ME feel emotionally better and I don't want to fabricate crimes and penalties. We aren't dictators, we aren't tyrants.

At least, I hope we aren't.

[Angry Dragon]

23. Thank you for your answer

I also just want the people responsible held to the same laws as the person on
the street. The same laws for everyone.
I feel until this is done corporations will continue with their disregard for the common man.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

25. They can only get away with...

...what the politicians and judges let them get away with.

It happens with celebrities too and it's disgusting.

I guess judges see it as, "Oh, he's rich. He stole using a pen and pices of paper." whereas the poor kid cracked somebody over the skull with a piece of pipe. Fact is, lives are still destroyed even if the means weren't as violent.

I'm not saying it is fair, I'm just describing it.


BTW - does your username mean what I think it means? A rather coarse sexual practice, if I'm not mistaken.

[Angry Dragon]

27. No??......... ....................

I have a fairly vivid imagination and I have no idea what coarse sexual practice you could be referring to.
I was not even aware that teabagging was a sexual sport until I read about it on DU.

I have a dragon as a totem and I have anger towards the way this country is sliding down the path of other previous civilizations.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

28. I'll PM

Unless you're too scared to find out.

HINT: It's worse than tea bagging.

[Angry Dragon]

30. Pm if you wish.........

[wolfgangmo]

34. Why are white collar crimes prosecuted less harshly than blue collar.

The rich write the laws for the rich. We live in a plutocracy. What is the average wealth of the average senator? 20 million? 100 million? More?

Government should fear the people. Our government has forgotten that and doesn't even give a shit about the average american. The government is just an adjunct of the corporations. Until that stops democracy and justice is dead in the water.

Will it take blood in the steets? Heads rolling on the ground? I hope not. But I would understand it if a mob of people burned K street to the ground.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

39. "What is the average wealth of the average senator? 20 million? 100 million? More? "

That's why a vote for Alvin Greene is a vote for honest government!

joking

kinda

[Statistical]

24. That still isn't murder.

Murder is very specific definition (varies slightly by state).
Criminal negligence is not murder.

That isn't to say that executives shouldn't be charged with criminal negligence or any other charges that fit, it just isn't murder.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. Murder is murder

Manslaughter is manslaughter.

Negligience is negligience.

Why all this trying to make one thing analogous to another? Charge each person for the crimes they are directly, factually responsible for.

I don't think that's the way we want to be judged by those who disagree with us.

[lpbk2713]

6. Liquidate all their assets except for the clothes they are wearing at the time of arrest.

Make sure there are no ghost accounts or trusts in the name of family members.
If they ever get out of jail make sure they live in absolute poverty.
This is the least they deserve for all the lives they ruined.
They need to know the stakes of the game they are playing in their board rooms.

[KonaKane]

7. I've got an idea for a fate worse than death for these people.....

Life in prison, and *paying* back every single one of their victims.

Believe me, the white collars would prefer a firing squad to this.

[wolfgangmo]

9. Death Penalty? No.

But I would support any law that went after these crooks and stripped them and their immediate families of all stolen money with huge penalties that are many times the original theft. I would also go after any accountant or lawyer who helped them steal by revoking their licenses permanently in ALL states and fining them heavily.


These crooks are stealing money and their lame explanations of "misreading" the market is pure BS and we all know it. Do the crime, do the time. Steal money and lose all of yours and all of your families money too as long as they were connected to your business or any of your businesses.

And the same goes double for BP and other companies who knowingly damage other people and companies and industries.

But death. No. Channel that rage into hurting these bastards where it counts. Make it so they can never again make money in the fields they used to steal in and that they lose everything just like their victims.

[AsahinaKimi]

11. hell no.

you start this ball rolling and it only heads down hill for everyone.

[AnArmyVeteran]

13. We need White Collar Criminal Forfeiture Laws passed NOW!

PASS FORFEITURE LAWS FOR WHITE COLLAR CRIMINALS NOW!

There are laws that empower the government to seize all property, bank accounts, automobiles, essentially all possession of a person who is caught dealing even a small quantity of drugs. So why are there no equivalent laws to strip away all the possessions of white collar criminals like Ken Lay, Bernard Madoff, Tony Hayward and thousands of others like them?

Our Coast Guard can seize any vessel at sea and arrest all on board if drugs are found. Then all of the assets, mansions, automobiles and bank accounts associated with those on board can be seized by the government. So the government can seize all possessions of someone with even a relatively small amount of drugs, but they are unable to seize BP assets or arrest any BP executive even when they kill 11 human beings and destroy our environment. Does anyone see a problem and inconsistency with this picture? Anyone?

"We the People" need to FORCE our government to pass forfeiture laws to strip away every dime from any white collar criminal who steals more than $100,000 and the higher the amount stolen or damage done, the greater the punishment. CEOs of corporations should be held personally liable for everything that goes on in their companies if the culture of that company caused harm to others. And in the case of BP, which has had countless violations of the law, all the leaders of the company should be immediately arrested and tried for the crimes they commit. Currently a corporation can violate the same law over and over again and all they have to do is pay a paltry fine. Since corporations write the laws that govern their activities they gladly pay these fines and treat them as just another cost of doing business. We need a law that if a company commits the same offense 3 times the CEO goes to prison. We could even call it something novel like the "Three Strikes and You're Out" law.

CEO's make millions a year, often 500-1000 times what a hard working average worker in their company makes. But why? Why do they get paid so much when they apparently have zero responsibilities and are accountable to no one, especially to those they wronged through their willful or unknowing negligence?

Let's pass a law that would seize every possession of any white collar criminal. Take their mansions, fleets of luxury cars, yatchs, jewelry, bank accounts, stocks, bonds, even their family dog. Take EVERYTHING from them AND their families! The only way to combat corporate corruption is to make corporate leaders accountable. How would you like a job where you got paid millions, but you didn't have to know anything that goes on in your company and you were insulated from personal liability even if you knew your company was putting people at risk?

But of course conservative republicans would balk at any such law because they seem to love it when corrupt businesses screw people. In 2000 Bush said "Businesses MUST be allowed to regulate themselves!" Republican deregulation has almost destroyed our country. They destroyed the economy. They started two wars based entirely on lies. They caused the Wall Street meltdown. They caused millions to be foreclosed on. They caused millions to be unemployed. They prevented health care reform in 1994 resulting in the deaths of 45,000 Americans every year. And now because of virtually zero regulation and an MMS stacked with corporate cronies conservatives could have possibly destroyed the Gulf of Mexico, along with eleven human beings.

Call your representatives and DEMAND they pass a White Collar Criminal Forfeiture Laws!!!!

NOTE: I understand that the jury is still out regarding Tony Hayward's involvement in the Gulf disaster, but if someone is paid so much and lives like royalty they should be responsible for every act committed by the company they are supposedly running.

[dchill]

18. Absolutely - none of these corporate raiders have anything...

personally at stake. It seems like even their reputations can't be hurt. The law should clearly be against this kind of no-risk gambling - whether it's underwater or Wall Street. They should all stand to lose every last ounce of their personal wealth and property when the fan gets clogged with their waste.

[AnArmyVeteran]

22. But time after time they go to jail for 3 months & when released they keep all the money they stole!

If you steal, steal big! The more you steal the less your punishment. And if you steal enough you wouldn't even have any punishment.

What gets me is when a person or a corporation is fined that money doesn't go to the victims of the crimes. It goes to the government. They are exceptions, but generally fines go to the government and the victims get nothing.

[wolfgangmo]

35. +1

You said it much better than I can. I'll call my congress critter. Of course she's Michelle Bachmann so don't expect much.

[Bluebear]

15. SHOUT SHOUT SHOUTING SHOUT SHOUT DOWN SHOOOUUUUUT DOWN

Signed, anti-death penalty people.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

19. How is disagreeing shouting down?

If a RWer wandered in here would he be shouted down or would he be confronted by a majority of people who don't share his beliefs and have facts to refute his assertions?

Sorry I don't share the lust for death that seems to make some people salivate.

And sorrier still much of this chest-thumping death-mongering seems partly for moral outrage but partly because BP and other corporations are easy political targets. Killing and politics are a bad combination. It makes me wonder how we can honestly claim to be the anti-war, peace movement when we're just as willing to kill those we don't like as the RW and Taliban.

When does the lunacy stop?

[Bluebear]

32. I don't know how a computer can "shout you down" :)

Unless you're hearing things.

[cali]

16. I am anti-death penalty with no exceptions ever.

so consider me as shouting you down if you so wish, but being opposed to the dp means being opposed to it across the board.

[dchill]

20. Me too, but....

couldn't we maybe just tase him, bro?

;)

[Nuclear Unicorn]

26. I saw your post and texted the BF (cuz he's really creative like this)

ME: qwik gimme sadistic punishment 4 criminal u want 2 suffer but not kill

HIM: y not kill?

ME: just gimme

HIM: dip balls in boiling texas habenero bbq sauce

[dchill]

38. First thought - Cruel AND Unusual...

I LIKE IT!

:)

[EOTE]

29. If I believed in the death penalty, I'd think it should apply to people like Hayward.

However, I don't. Life in prison sounds more than reasonable, though. I think yesterday wouldn't be too soon for that fucker to get there.

[The Magistrate]

31. Indeed, Sir: For The Corporate Chiefs And the Corporations As Well

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

[JackRiddler]

33. Not for death penalty, but there's no doubt it would have a deterrent effect on white-collar...

crime, whereas it has no deterrent effect on individual crime.

White collar crime is committed because it so obviously pays.

[proteus_lives]

36. I'm not closed to that idea.

Let them know they're not untouchable.

[tekisui]

37. Absolutely not.

We need to be heading the other direction. End the death penalty altogether. That is one slippery slope we should not even consider.

[Curmudgeoness]

41. The pre-oil spill me would have said no. Today, I agree.

[Stinky The Clown]

42. I can support a very different kind of "death penalty"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8437016

[Parche]

43. I am all for the DP

But only for murder....:hi:

[Overseas]

44. How about life sentences in our regular overcrowded prisons?

Don't want Tony Hayward to become a Big Oil Martyr.

[treestar]

45. I am against the death penalty to start, so what would be wrong

with being against expanding it?

In criminal law, it is the intent that counts. A first degree murderer is the most dangerous person. It's because they specifically intended to kill. If there is a death penalty, it should surely be limited to that.

[Jkid]

46. No death penality

I prefer a life sentence for white collar corporate crime in aggravated cases. The BP spill is such a case because it wiped out not only the Gulfs ecosystem, but also the livelihoods of people who rely on the Gulf.

[jgraz]

47. Consider an economic death penalty

Liquidate all their assets (as suggested above) and legally bar them earning or accepting any money for the rest of their lives. Put them on welfare and prevent them from owning anything or living in any place that they can't pay for with their welfare checks.

[NYC_SKP]

48. How about Death Penalty for the Corporation, Life in Prison for the Executives at fault?

Dissolve the corporation, kill it, liquidate the assets and distribute these to the victims.

Any leftovers can go to balance the budget.

:shrug:

[ZombieHorde]

49. I am against the DP, but I may support a full asset grab for some.