Shouldn't a College Degree Keep You Out of Poverty?

[dajoki]

Shouldn't a College Degree Keep You Out of Poverty?
by Lauren Kelley June 11, 2010 01:30 PM (PT)
http://uspoverty.change.org/blog/view/shouldnt_a_college_degree_keep_you_out_of_poverty

There's good news and bad news in a new report from the Institute for Higher Education Policy. The good news: an increasing number of low-income young adults are going to college these days. The bad news: many of those low-income students remain in poverty after they graduate.

Sigh.

The report (pdf) http://www.ihep.org/assets/files/publications/m-r/%28Brief%29_A_Portrait_of_Low-Income_Young_Adults_in_Education.pdf found that 47 percent of young adults whose total household income was near or below the federal poverty level were enrolled in an institute of higher education in 2008, a healthy five percent increase from 2000, and another 11 percent had earned a degree. However, about one in ten of those students “failed to immediately transcend the poverty threshold.” In other words, they passed college but college failed them.

The introduction to the report quotes President Obama's State of the Union Address from January: "n the 21st century, the best anti-poverty program around is a world-class education." Apparently, and unfortunately, things don't appear to be that cut-and-dry for many impoverished young adults. Although higher education opportunities are expanding for poor populations, outcomes are not getting any better. Which raises the question: What good is a college education without a positive outcome?

There are a lot of surprising statistics in the report that are begging for explanation. (White low-income students are twice as likely as African Americans and Hispanics to remain poor after graduation? Really?) Future reports in the series, which is being funded by the Gates Foundation, will examine educational aspirations, academic preparation, movement in and between schools, and financial aid and debt burdens among low-income young adults to give all of us a better understanding of what's going on here so we can try and address the problem(s).

Even for young adults not coming from low-income backgrounds, college is expensive and may not be worth it in this economy. If we don't start improving educational outcomes for poor students, college might start to seem like a worthless pursuit for everyone – and I don't think that's a road any of us want the country to go down. Gregory S. Kienzl, director of research and evaluation at IHEP, summed it up best: "If you have a degree, you should no longer be poor."

[nickinSTL]

1. Doesn't matter how much education you have

if there are no jobs.

Considering how many teachers and librarians are losing their jobs right now, expect the numbers of college-educated that slip below the poverty line to skyrocket if the economy does not improve almost immediately.

I still maintain that Obama's failure to adequately address the jobs issue is so far his greatest failure and the one most likely to cost him reelection in 2012.

[dajoki]

4. Are you saying...

that college isn't worth the trouble and students should just forget about it? I think if you have a college degree you are one up on the job competion.

[nickinSTL]

25. no - the article might be saying that, but I'm not

My concern is the lack of jobs.

I'm absolutely in favor of education. I have a master's degree and don't regret that despite the fact that I'm deeply in debt (and of course, a large part of that was to pay for the degree) and the fact that I don't make much money.

I'm very concerned with the Obama Administration's failure on the jobs front.

[dajoki]

26. I see n/t

[HughBeaumont]

64. What's Obama supposed to do, force corporations to hire people?

Even a WPA-type groundswell/infrastructure rebuild will still not mean that many jobs for people with master's degrees.

The creation of "21st Century Jobs" is on the vaunted private sector, not Obama. Corporate America are the ones sabotaging American progress. When you make higher education worth no more than a height requirement and hold more precedence on how cheap you can get a worker rather than the kind of job he/she can do for you, where's the ROI in that? We have the potential for 15 YEARS of no net new job growth. "Most Powerful Nation in the World"?

For all of this blather about "our children are our future", we sure do an absolutely AWFUL job in showing it.

[dajoki]

76. Then we need...

a 21st century type WPA program so that people with masters degrees will have some other options.

[SocialistLez]

112. Exactly. Plus if you have people with jobs paying taxes, buying homes, etc

then teachers, librarians, etc. will be employed.

Those teachers, librarians,etc. will shop in the stores keeping cashiers, managers, etc. in business.

[dajoki]

115. It should be...

easy to see but those idiots in Washington have no clue.

[HughBeaumont]

127. The ripple (or domino) effect -

Prevelant in places like Northeast Ohio. When a plant closes, all of those secondary businesses that depended on the incomes of WORKING Ohioans . . . close shop also.

Multiply this by thousands, and you got a shitsicle on your hands.

[Flatulo]

120. Damn straight...

I just heard from a friend at H-P that they'll be outsourcing 9,000 more technical positions to China, India, and Costa Rica.

Their goal is to have no US employees.

[KamaAina]

124. Ah yes, Carly Fiorina's legacy lives on

Boxer needs to hammer that point home at every turn.

[Flatulo]

164. It's a real shame, H-P used to be a great company. They valued their

employees and had first-rate engineering.

May they rot.

[AmyDeLune]

152. So after one graduates from college, move to China?

Or India. Or Costa Rica. *sigh*

[Demeter]

139. WPA Employed All People

Artists stayed alive doing art, some of the best America has ever produced.

Parks, reforestation, water and sewer and all sorts of infrastructure in use today were WPA projects.

Teachers and librarians were employed by the govt.

The 21st century, unless it eliminates people entirely, does not take out job categories.

The 20th century 10%-er commission jobs and paper-pushing jobs are gone. The newspaper industry is collapsing, but not the need for news. I forsee it returning and not just on line, either, but the old model must die off completely first.

[provis99]

29. the purpose of college is to get an education, not get a job.

I wish people would remember that. A college degree isn't a free job certificate. Frankly, if universities start training people for jobs, I would say that the university system has failed, and we need to just switch to vocational schools.

[dajoki]

34. I never said that was the case n/t

[Confusious]

50. If it doesn't train you for something then what good is it?

Opining on Plato over bar-b-qued squirrel in your luxurious cardboard box?

[William Z. Foster]

158. wow

No wonder education is under assault.

[Confusious]

162. Whatever you think you know,

when it comes to my opinion, you don't, so don't even try.

If you get a degree in underwater basket weaving, or some of the humanities, don't expect much when you get out.

[Bert]

60. Possibly

Maybe if you are getting a degree in philosophy. My degree was in engineering technology. It gives me a somewhat general education in addition to the part geared towards engineering. It also gave me about 25,000 in debt that I have to keep ahead of. I have lately taken to taking some supplemental training at Ivy tech as well as self study, with online aids. The reason being that my degree is too deep in knowledge and not broad enough. There seems to be some bias at least in my program against propietary training. And that would be my advice to any tech graduates from universities, get some extra accredidations. My degree was in Electrical and computer engineering technology, bs., specializing in factory process controls, ladder logic and power distribution, as well as the bascis of circuit analysis with some computer programming. I found out however that I was getting job offers as a second fiddle to people from tech schools because I did not have Microsoft training(system admin, Active directory), cisco(certified network associate), and comptia type(A+, Security+, Network+, Linux+) certifications. There is a bias agaisnt teaching proprietary things in universities.

After getting about 6 certificates in a years time because I had the general knowledge to quickly take and pass these courses my job prospects have increased enormously, and the costs were significanly less than that at Purdue where I got my BS. My suggestion to any tech students in my situation would be to take some summer classes in IT skills at say an Ivy Tech type institution during the summer, as well as getting some work experience while in school even if it means an extra year. Otherwise, once getting your degree you will be asked for certs and experience and you may have to take a job as an industrial electrician for a while like I did just to make ends meet and stay ahead of your loans.

[HughBeaumont]

65. THANK YOU.

Colleges are not corporate farm clubs.

[Bert]

71. Then why do I have to pay for it?

If I should get education for it's own benefit, that is fine with state funded education. I am however expected to pay huge amounts of money. How shall I pay this money back? From my job at the cleaners?

[HughBeaumont]

109. And there is the point . . . ALL education should be subsidized.

Unfortunately, we have a crumbling empire that measures it's penis through the might of it's military rather than the intelligence of it's citizenry. So WE the PEOPLE have to end up paying through the nose for something that, in every sense of the word and just like health care, is a human right.

This country's priorities are so goddamned out of wack it's pathetic.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/89

[Freedom is not free]

128. Who are "We the People"?

We the People are the government's money pool. How is it the responsibility of the people who choose to advance their education in something marketable to subsidize the studies of philosophers? What if every American wanted to study unmarketable skills? Who pays for your intellectual degree when the only skill everyone has is flipping burgers?

The utopian assumption is that everyone is motivated merely by excellence. While that is true in many cases, the vast majority of people find their motivation from financial gain. What is the point of excellence if someone who performs at a lower level is equally compensated?

Do we simply expect stupid people to serve us while we get our degrees so we can look down on them in their stupidity?

[liberation]

140. Well, someone got lost on their way to their libertarian meet up?

Which book by Rand are you guys reading for the book club this month? Ironically, Rand was a failed philosopher herself.

Your argument can easily be flipped: the assumption that greed motivates people solely would mean that everyone would end up getting degrees in business administration. But what happens then, when everyone is a manager? Who engineers the stuff these managers are supposed to market?

Furthermore, In that case why should the lowly peons subsidize the education of those who are going to study business and thus undermine their (the workers) earning potential?

It turns out that almost every field of study is interconnected. Biology may not be a money making discipline, but medicine would be impossible without its foundations in biology, chemistry, etc. Should students who are going to med schools, and thus have the opportunity to make lots of money, subsidize those lowly poor biologists and chemists? You bet your sweet myopic ass.


I recommend that before some people make claims as to what education is and how it should be managed, they should at least bother getting an education first.

[Freedom is not free]

145. You misunderstood my point.

I couldn't agree with you more. The point is that I own the responsibility for what I want to be when I grow up. Not "We the People". If I want to spend $4,000 and 18 months learning a trade, I can save $ and be working quickly. If I want to drop $200,000 and 12 years, I can be a medical doctor. My choice. It bothers me that it is so difficult to enter medical school. Make it harder and the cream will rise to the top.

When government subsidizes, government decides who deserves the subsidy. There are many who read these pages that believe the government is qualified for this job. That's a slippery slope because the government can change and the chosen in one group may be the outcast in four years. Then your race, political leaning, etc. may determine what you should be educated to do. Would Republicans want Democratic politician telling them what to be when we grow up any more than Democrats would want Republicans to?

[haele]

148. Doesn't work that way with the GI bill - one of the most heavily subsidized programs there is -

As long as your education - or certification course - is from an accredited agency, it doesn't matter who you are, or what you get your degree or certification in. Same with Pell grants and other educational subsidies.
When the State of California used to provide "free" university to it's residents, there was no requirement other than a qualifying grade in high school or at an equivalent school or junior college.

Likewise, the government has all sorts of subsidy programs existing that don't require race, political leaning, or religion. That people who have fewer resources may have programs to assist them that people with better resources or who already have "a step up" don't need, is not discriminating by race, politics, or any other measure.

There are laws and regulations in place that currently protect against discrimination against a qualified person for everything but excessive wealth or "class".

Haele

[liberation]

149. ... but you are not agreeing with me at all.

Public funding of education has nothing to do with limiting choice, on the contrary... funding education leads to increasing access to it, which is the opposite of limiting choices.

The solution is simple: Fund all fields of study, and make access to them dependent on academic ability... not economic ability. That is actually the way of allowing true genius to actually rise to the top, rather than filter out possible talent that hasn't been born with a silver spoon.

Stop drinking the libertarian cool aid, and thinking that logically dissonant talking points are valid arguments (they end up being nothing more than tangential red herrings)

[Freedom is not free]

166. Believe what you want.

But who decides academic ability?  What we fail to realize is
that, anything we favor happening today because we are in
power may hand power to the other side.  We claim the
intellectual and tolerance high ground on this site, yet are
so dismissive of any alternative thought.  Hmm, kind of
ironic.

[smirkymonkey]

135. +100

Couldn't have said it any better.

[burnsei sensei]

161. Don't tell the corporate elite that.

They've been keeping universities like mistresses for years.

[Madam Mossfern]

133. Good idea!

Far too many people go to college than should. I am not trying to be an elitists, but downright practical. When my kids were small, I let them know that they would either go to college to become a professional or become a tradesperson. College is not an extension of

What's wrong with vocational schools?
Bring back the crafts and trade guilds.
It's about time that tradespeople got more respect.

That's one strategy to get the economy back on track.

[bobbolink]

138. Abso-fucking-lutely! Education is to make better citizens, and should be for EVERYONE.

It is very short-sighted and IGNORANT of this country to equate education with a meal ticket.

[Beartracks]

160. Still, an educational degree must be valued...

... by employers. An earlier poster said it best: many companies look to see how cheap they can get the college grad, not how much value they bring with them to the company.

Unless the college grad is applying to be CEO, of course... Ha!

--------------------------

[Progressive_In_NC]

165. When it costs 40-140K and you have to pay for it, a job has to be the end all

The cost of education is driving this trend. My parents spent a few hundred dollars in 1960 and 1964 to go to a state school. I spent 28K to go to a state school in 93-97, my kids (10, 6 and 1) will spend about 50K to go to the same state school system around 2020. It can't keep going up like this, and for me there were few grants and scholarships available, and my kids will face the same situation. I make just enough money to NOT be considered for need based aid, but not enough to afford three college educations comfortably.

[Dappleganger]

9. In agreement, the lack of good jobs is inescapable. nt

[truedelphi]

54. Obama has addressed it Starting saying around this time last yr., that the problem was

That people needed to be educated.

That is when I knew he was talking out of his Ass.

Every single field of endeavor has shrunk in the USA, as the research facilities are often in Asia, the manufacturing is in Mexico, the textile industries in Honduras or Bangladesh.

But the Upper One Percent was quite clever about this-- they eliminated and offshored one industry at a time.

The textile manufacturers were the first to go, but the computer crowd said, "Well, if they had just gone to college and gotten a degree in computers, they'd be fine."

Same comments were made when the auto industry and all that that entailed went down to Mexico and other places. Cars, tires, mufflers, wrenches, everything now made everywhere from Korea to Mexico.

Then the call centers opened in India and Pakistan and those computer tech jobs were mostly gone too.

The best field of endeavor if you don't want to be laid off is in delivery - UPS can't have some grunt in Pakistan deliver the package from San Francisco to Indianapolis.

With 18 to 22% of us not working, this means that the libraries are on half time, the college classes are cut back, then jobs are even less available. Less money in the economy -so even the neighborhood diner lays off people.

[nickinSTL]

yeah - well, that's not good enough

I don't mean that Obama has to "address" it - like make a speech about it

He needs to push a major jobs bill. DO SOMETHING to actually CREATE jobs.

Otherwise, he's wasting space in the Oval Office and needs to be replaced.

If there are still no jobs and no real hope for jobs by November 2012, I'd say his chances of reelection are no better than 50/50 - which is sad, as he had the potential to do so much more, IMO.

[truedelphi]

68. The inner policy wonks are already planning our future.

And it doesn't include our nation returning to becoming a manufacturing nation.

Watch C Span sometime, and see what these Senate Aides and others are saying.

On one symposium about the hunger in some far away country, (probably Africa) this young twenty something said in her very polished and educated way that since the American populace wasn't going to see a return to real jobs any time soon, maybe some type of VISTA, Peace Corps jobs could be developed and created, to employ us.

It's not gonna affect her, just like it is not gonna affect Obama. The Political class is there to be the mouth piece for the corporations. They will gild the lily, but it is just too bad if no one for us if no one waters said lily.

[nickinSTL]

56. Delete - dupe

n/t

[OnionPatch]

114. +1

Boy, that's the truth. Having a job that can't be outsourced is more important than having an education these days.

[truedelphi]

147. This is totally off topic -

But I just planted a S__t load of wild onions in my rock garden...

With yr user name as it is, thought you'd resonate with that too.

[OnionPatch]

163. Lol, cool!

I do love to garden. But I chose the name from an old song that goes....."I'm a lonely little petunia in an onion patch, and all I do is cry all day" because I'm the only liberal in my neighborhood. :)

[Brickbat]

2. A world-class education does no one any good if there are no jobs. Also, some well-paying

jobs used to not require bachelor's degrees and now do so, and that creates a false need for college degrees. IMO.

[hedgehog]

8. There used to be apprenticeship programs for some jobs

that paid you a wage as you learned. Now you pay for community college and hope you find a job to pay that off.

BTW - did you see the huge jump in wages with this change?




Me, neither.

[Brickbat]

22. Trade unions still run apprentice programs.

Why anyone would pay to go to community college when there are apprentice programs is beyond me.

[eShirl]

48. maybe they aren't aware of the apprentice programs?

[Dappleganger]

80. Schools don't actively advertise them.

Our oldest daughter noticed early on that all of her high school teachers pushed, pushed college constantly and never mentioned tech school. Not one guidance counselor made any sort of announcement about them either. Everyone automatically assumed each student was going to college, AND if they found out differently they were treated like scum (including my artistic daughter). Her art teachers couldn't understand why she wasn't going into teaching (when both her teachers were losing their JOBS in the school system, duh!). My daughter prefers to work on her feet and with her hands, not in the books, although she was a good student. Nobody gave her any direction, we had to dig it up ourselves even after multiple phone calls to the guidance office for advice.

[Confusious]

52. There still are

Just fewer of them. Nobody needs wagon wheels anymore. Nor a blacksmith.

[truedelphi]

70. That is my not so humble opinion also.

I have had friends whow ere ten years younger than me who spent the first two years getting college credits for things like remedial math.

By the time they are through with their four year degree, they know about as much as I knew when I got out of HS.

[Ikonoklast]

3. There are no guarantees in life, none.

There is no level of education that I know of that comes with an automatic salary, or a lifetime ticket good for a high-paying job.

[Dappleganger]

10. Unless your last name is Bush or Cheney.

There will always be a job guaranteed for you if you're in those families!

[deaniac21]

16. That is what sucks. Even Kennedy's, Roosevelts, and Gores

have to start at the bottom.

[Ikonoklast]

44. That is only temporary.

Mightier families with more power and wealth have fallen.


Time is a great equalizer.

[hedgehog]

11. Maybe no guarantees, but at least some opportunities that don't depend

on luck. A willingness to put forth effort should take you somewhere.

[dajoki]

45. Yes, great post n/t

[CubicleGuy]

143. Here's a quote from a bigwig at the Federal Reserve Board:

According to LDS scholar Hugh Nibley (now deceased):

Here's a quotation from the chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve Board: "Our economy is a form of fraud perpetrated by everybody on everybody. It is a world in which nobody keeps his word. Even if you could adjust perfectly for it, it would be a very unpleasant world." -- Approaching Zion, "Gifts"

There are no guarantees any more, because we have arrived at the point where we truly live in a world where nobody keeps his word. It's all a fraud, perpetrated by everyone, on everyone.

[geckosfeet]

5. Nope. But colleges would have you believe that.

[Taitertots]

6. College Graduates average $20,000+ more per year and have half the unemployment rate of uneducated

If you have a college degree you are FAR less likely to be poor. College is absolutely worth it for anyone able to get in and complete it.

[provis99]

30. those facts have NOTHING to do with having a college education.

That fact that social science has discovered, is that those people who are most likely to get a college education, would have been the ones to get higher paying jobs anyways, even if they hadn't been to college. The real disgrace is that colleges have known this for decades, yet still push this false correlation that college degree= good paying job.

[dajoki]

35. In some cases it does n/t

[Taitertots]

41. Where is your support for this claim?

Social Science is a fairly vague source.

[depakid]

79. I'd kind of like to see it too

[quaker bill]

110. It is true that I made "shop foreman"

very quickly without a college degree, because I knew how to read an electrical schematic, run a VOM and fix the factory equipment. On the other hand, when I lost the job due to the factory closing, I took two years and finished my Bachelors of Science. When I got my degree, I immediately started earning about 4 times as much, and I now earn roughly 20 times as much money per hour.

That being said, there are lots of kids out there with degrees in environmental science selling shoes and waiting tables. I know because every so often I get to hire one. They seem pretty happy about it.

[freebrew]

121. The real disgrace:

Colleges push the assumption that a degree is a guarantee of intelligence.

After working with degreed engineers for the last 20 years, I can definitely tell you that assumption is false.

[New Dawn]

100. Where did you read that? How did they conduct their survey or acquire their data?

[undeterred]

7. The value of an education has to be considered separately

from the ability to find work. Educational institutions (at least colleges) should prepare you to think and maybe have a strong background in a particular area. It might make you stand out from non-college educated applicants but it doesn't guarantee anything.

What helps in finding and keeping a job? Reliability, computer skills, knowing the right people... figuring out what is helpful to a particular employer, and honing those skills.

[Lucky Luciano]

57. "knowing the right people"

WHen you go to college, you have a far greater probability of meeting good people and friends for life who will eventually be part of your network for getting a better job.

[dajoki]

77. That is a big part of it...

meeting as many people as possible so that you have a network to rely on years later.

[CTyankee]

66. Well, there ARE exceptions, altho they are scarce.

Look at George Clooney, for instance. His father probably had a college degree and George was on his way to one but he dropped out to pursue his acting career. He is one of the biggest stars in American film history.

There are sports stars who do not choose or cannot graduate from college but for whom college sports gave them their catapult to stardom.

I also think Bill Gates was a Harvard dropout. But I guess Gates is an outlier.

Don't know about the whiz kids at Google and E-Bay.

[patrice]

12. Without discounting the importance of one's economic life, education has intrinsic human value in

and of itself.

And, leaving aside the question of what constitutes an appropriate education for each individual, people are better off for knowing more about themselves and the world, than they are in knowing less, whether they are employed or not.

[Taitertots]

86. You can get a profitable degree and still take humanities classes

People are not better off starving with an advanced knowledge of underwater basket weaving.

They are better off with productive jobs and a few less credits in philosophy.

[amborin]

99. +1

everyone has to worry about supporting themselves, but it's too bad that, more and more, education is pursued for instrumental reasons, and valued in market terms; it's important in and of itself, priceless

[lostnfound]

13. A full-time job of any kind ought to keep you out of poverty.

I don't understand why we should accept a community where maids, janitors, fruitpickers and clerks aren't paid enough to live on.

[dajoki]

15. You are absolutely correct n/t

[LiberalLoner]

17. I agree completely n/t

[etherealtruth]

19. The "best" comment I've read in a long time!

[conspirator]

74. Predatory capitalism. I apologize for the redundancy n/t

[justabob]

75. yes, absolutely

It makes no sense that someone working 35-45 hours a week cannot meet basic living expenses: up to code dwelling, clothing, food, a car (most places)... I have never understood that. You shouldn't have to have 2-3 jobs and work 80+ hours a week to live in a decent dwelling, buy food, clothing and medicine (and maybe see a doctor occasionally) whatever basic needs. It is completely insane. You have to pay folks enough to cover those costs and have a little on the side if anything is ever going to get better.

[New Dawn]

102. Exactly.

[leftstreet]

105. +1

[SocialistLez]

113. +100 NT

[SomeGuyInEagan]

125. +1 I wish I had written that n/t

[LARED]

14. What does this mean?

However, about one in ten of those students “failed to immediately transcend the poverty threshold.” In other words, they passed college but college failed them.

Ok so if immediately upon graduation you don't have a good job, "college has failed them"? What if you get the great job a year later? Did college still fail them?

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. It depends on what that college degree trained you to do. n/t

[no_hypocrisy]

20. Degrees are a means, not an end. A job is an end.

I've had 9 years of college and could only work as a midnight shift telephone operator for 8 years. And it paid my bills. No regrets.

[provis99]

32. no, the degree is the end, not a means.

The purpose of college is to get educated, not get a job. If all people want is a job, then the government should indulge in massive Keynesian economic spending to create jobs.

[dajoki]

42. I think its both...

a way to get a good education , but also a way to get a good job. A lot, of course, depends on what field one chooses to study.

[no_hypocrisy]

62. I can compromise. A degree is both an ends and a means.

My point is unless you have a salary, a degree is relatively worthless for paying your bills.

With three degrees, I have more choices than many individuals as to vocation. Unless I'm working, the education is potential for a future position. If I'm working, it's the knowledge, skill, experience, problem-solving, imagination, etc. that allows me to do my job well.

[Starry Messenger]

21. If there are jobs, it does.

But everyone going to college and getting a degree does not magically eliminate poverty, no matter what Bill Gates, Arne Duncan and his boss says.

[dajoki]

24. There is nothing that will "magically" eliminate poverty...

it will take hard work.

[Starry Messenger]

27. I agree.

But the DOE seems to think they've found the magic bullet with their education policy.

[dajoki]

39. And the DOE might be wrong n/t

[stray cat]

23. Why? A college degree doesn't mean you are competent to hold a job

or capable of basic math, literacy or common sense. Surely you have met college grads you would never employ.

[provis99]

33. of course. Because college degrees have nothing to do with jobs.

[alfredo]

28. But if you come out of college with a debt of a quarter million,

you might be seen as a bad credit risk and unemployable. It might even prevent you from getting a security clearance.

[riderinthestorm]

31. Education is necessary for a functioning democracy.

The more highly educated our population is, the better off we should be in being a literate, thinking, functioning society and democracy.

I would never begrudge education as an intrinsic value for all of us.

Someone said it better on another thread, we need to de-couple the notion that college is just a means to make money.

It CAN be that. But it would be great if we understood that college can and should be a whole lot more.

[Trillo]

36. A high school degree should keep one out of poverty.

So, yes, so should a college degree.

But, reality says that isn't true. In either case, one ends up, in the vast majority of cases, working for a corporation, who skims some value of your labor dollars for themselves, they pay you less than you're making for the corporation (trickle up).

Thus, by working for a corporation, some amount of relative poverty is created amongst the employees. Their system is now so overwhelmingly in control, one paradox seems to be that by not working for a corporation, poverty is also created.

So, the thinking about education leading one out of poverty seems to be an illusion. The economic game seems to be little more than a crap shoot at Vegas, combined with continual parasitism of the less educated by the more educated, and also combined with parasitism of the more educated by the owners, all so a few may live like kings.

If you're not in poverty, thank your luck and good fortune.

[dajoki]

38. "If you're not in poverty, thank your luck and good fortune"

That's about what it comes down to now, isn't it?

[ProgressiveVictory]

37. nope

[blondeatlast]

40. "Shouldn't a job keep you out of poverty?" I could agree with that statement,

but not that a college degree should.

We need plumbers and electricians and busboys and grocery-store cashiers just as much as we need B.As.

[gleaner]

43. Degrees really don't seem to mean much anymore ...

My niece, in her 40s studied Journalism and got a job at a paper where she lives. She moved to a better position at another paper and is now an editor. The problem is the papers are going under. At her paper they have meetings once a month where they announce which positions are going to be eliminated and who they will keep and who will go. They eliminated her job once and put her in another position because she is a good worker and works long hours without question and sometimes without compensation to keep her job. All of the employees at the paper are required to take a week of unpaid furlough time at least once a year and that is called "vacation." They are discouraged from taking any paid vacation time or personal days.

When she saw the way things were going, she went back to university at night and got a Masters hoping that would increase her job security. It didn't. Now she is trying to switch fields and is starting at ground zero at a junior college taking basic classes that she needs to flesh out a Doctoral program she had begun. She is drowning in loans and her parents who are retired cannot help any more. She lives with them rent free and that is about all they can do. She couldn't make it any other way. She works hard, she likes education for its own sake and I think for the first time she sees how bad it is going to be and that none of this will make any difference. The jobs are not there, but she keeps trying and trying even though it is like hitting her head on a brick wall.

She has two degrees, working on a third and if anything she is getting poorer. I gave you a rec and a kick.

[dajoki]

46. At least she is determined...

and people like her seem to succeed. My oldest daughter did something similar, she always wanted to be a teacher but there were no local jobs for her and she didn't want to move. She got a job in a hospital in the financial area, went back to college where she got a Bachelor os Science in nursing. She is now working at that same hospital as an RN and doing quite nicely.

[William Z. Foster]

55. they came to mean money

Once college degrees came to be about making more money than others any social value they once had was doomed. There was a time when higher education called people - intellectuals who are otherwise useless mouths to fed while others do the necessary work - to self-sacrifice and public service, not to a gravy train of the good life.

"Live by the sword, die by the sword." The perks and status and trinkets the corporations give can be taken away by the corporations.

The attitude that people with degrees should somehow be protected from the horrors the rest of the population have been facing is morally depraved. Many people made a pact with the devil - "we will get our degree and shill for the rulers (that is the main thing for which people are paid the higher salaries) in exchange for status and money" - and the devil doesn't keep his bargains.

[gleaner]

108. I don't think this applies in this case ....

She has a social conscience, worked hard for everything she has and never expected to have anything handed to her. When she was in her early 20s she used to volunteer at Planned Parenthood to walk the patients across the picket lines of people screaming death threats and obscenities. She didn't do that for herself. She got death threats in the mail, her picture was published and she was followed. She stopped when they closed the clinic and has since devoted herself to other community service. Her parents worked for the public school system so they were far from rich and privileged. She went to school to learn and work at something she loved. She got screwed not people who make judgments without knowing who they are talking about. She remains a Progressive and still tries to find good where there is none. More people should live with the idea that helping others is important. Maybe then everything wouldn't be for sale, including people who seek knowledge and self development. Intellectuals are not parasites they are the driving force for change because they have the intelligence to know what needs to be changed and improved. That is why they are usually one of the first groups of people to be rounded up and murdered by dictators.

[William Z. Foster]

154. not talking about her

You said college degrees have lost their meaning. I was talking about that.

"Helping others" is a gentrified position, and one that takes for granted and reinforces the hierarchical social conventions and arrangements.

I intellectuals can be the driving force for change. Our culture has created and efficient method for co-opting them and getting them to side with the ruling class. That has made intellectuals in this country parasites. Organizers and resisters, social critics, scapegoated ethnic groups, and artists are the first people rounded up.

Ruling class people "do good" and "help others." Working class people cooperate and work together when given the chance to do that. You say that if people helped each other, that then everything would not be for sale. That is backward, and the notion that solving social problems through individual personal moral conversion is an upper class sentimentality. It works the other way around - if everything were not for sale, people would be cooperating and working together. "Helping" implies that one person is superior to the other and is then "doing good" by tossing them a few things.

It is meaningless to say that a person "is" a progressive. Politics is not about personal beliefs or other interior subjective states.

[gleaner]

155. You are playing semantics here....

I'm a Quaker. Our beliefs are the opposite of what you state. We hold out our hands in kindness to others because without that life would not be bearable. We believe that people of all races, cultures and walks of life are equal because everyone carries within themselves a bit of truth. If we come together and share our truth we may begin to make sense of the whole, but no one has the whole truth.

So if you tell me that "do good" means one thing to you that is your truth and you are entitled to bear it. It means something else to me and is not limited to a rigid definition of a "class" system which you have devised to house your beliefs. Normally I would go on and on here discussing and debating because that is one thing that Quakers do. Unfortunately for me I have a roaring bladder infection which by any semantic definition is making me feel like crap, and the medicine I am taking enhances the effect.

I thought you were talking about my niece because you posted what you did in direct response to a post about her. An easy mistake. Now I think you are talking mainly to hear yourself speak. So I am going to take my infection, give it plenty of fluids and leave you to it. Play nice and make a lot of friends. You never know when you might need one.

[William Z. Foster]

157. that is fine

I wasn't questioning your beliefs.

[Liberal_in_LA]

47. interesting. Saving link for later reading

[Codeine]

49. I hate that fucking attitude.

A degree doesn't entitle ANYONE to ANYTHING more than what everyone else should have. You're not special because you got your degree. NOBODY SHOULD BE IN POVERTY! Working people shuld all have reasonably stable and comfortable lives, whether or not they have gotten a higher education.

Every time I see that "I have a degree and college loan bills -- I should have a better job!" bullshit I want to fucking beat people with a bat. People without degrees work HARDER for far LESS money, so shut your fucking cakeholes.

[dajoki]

53. I have no degree...

but I busted my ass my whole life. My daughter has a degree in nursing and she works as hard as anyone I know. You can't just lump everybody into particular categories, there are always exceptions to the rules.

[XOKCowboy]

73. Amen again Brother Codeine

We have a neighbor who worked all his life on his family's farm. His older brother went from High School directly into college and for a while into the business world. Then came the oil bust in the mid 80s and the older brother lost his high paying job and came back to work the farm to pay the bills.

One day the younger brother told his older brother that he knew someone who needed a truck driver. The OB said "But YB, I have a college education". YB replied "Yeah he knows that but he won't hold it against ya".

[Taitertots]

87. I'm sure being on a farm helped his business career ambitions

Isn't that like me sitting around in the city complaining that I can't find farming jobs.

[XOKCowboy]

89. Yep...

Hence the lack of sympathy from his younger brother who by that time had worked hard and become successful without the benefit of a college degree. While OB was obtaining all the trappings of a up and coming petroleum engineer YB had put all his time and money back into the farm. When the oil bust of the early 80s came to Oklahoma, OB found himself like thousands of other petroleum engineers. Out of work and mortgaged to the hilt. Luckily he had family to go back to.

[Taitertots]

90. What do you mean by "family farm"?

Does that mean the younger brother was given a farm? What are all the younger brothers who won't be given a farm supposed to do?

Lots of people become successful without a college degree. I'm sure the younger brother worked quite hard too. That still doesn't change that his situation is very unique to people whose parents own a business that they will give to their children. For every one younger brother, there are a dozen outside the family farm workers who will never be able to advance within the business.

[XOKCowboy]

93. No he bought it like most farmers do...

The farm they grew up on eventually became quite valuable as housing real estate. Dad and Mom sold out to retire and the sons were left with a decent inheritance. YB took his and bought land up near our place. He worked his butt off (and still does) to become a respected rancher. I'm happy to say that his brother took that truck driving job and now has 5 other trucks in his business.

Don't get so defensive. I never said that you didn't work hard for your degree. I just agree with Codeine that just because you went to college and got a degree that you're entitled to anything.

[Taitertots]

95. With money that Mommy and Daddy gave him

I'm sure he works hard, but couldn't have gotten there without a handout from Mommy and Daddy. What are all the people whose parents are impoverished supposed to do?

I'm not entitled to anything when I get my degree(soon). I'll have to continue to work hard and even then it is not a sure thing.

[XOKCowboy]

98. Gosh I think that's point of the OP...

You finally got it. My neighbor got just enough inheritance to put down as collateral on his own ranch. He's been working for 40 yrs to pay it off. He's never been rich, just prudent, smart and hard working.

I wish you well with your endeavors and hope that your investment in a college degree comes to fruition.

[Taitertots]

83. No one should be in poverty

Workers should be able to have stable and comfortable lives.

People who work harder should be better compensated. Be it working harder by educating themselves and doing jobs the uneducated CAN'T do, or working harder at jobs even the uneducated can do. After several YEARS of hard work at a university, college graduates have earned their higher pay.

As if people with college degrees didn't work harder when they earned a degree. I've spent years working and going to school, so don't tell me people without degrees work harder. Why don't you try and learn how to integrate multi-variable functions after a full day at work? Why don't you try to learn it and tell me how much less work it is?

[New Dawn]

103. There are many people with degrees working at low-wage jobs (i.e. near or at the minimum wage).

I hate it when people imply that having a college degree automatically insures that one will at least earn a living wage. It sure as hell does not.

[liberation]

142. Misery sure loves company, don't it?

[The Midway Rebel]

51. My college degrees have enabled me to retire from blue collar labor

However, they have not enabled me to stay out of poverty.

[defendandprotect]

58. Only if you have naive expectations of capitalism and its criminal activities . ..!!

[Hekate]

59. Mentoring and connections weigh as much as the degree. Mentoring is huge...

I know: I didn't have any. Took me a couple of decades to figure that out.

Hekate

[Nay]

67. Same here, Hekate. 35 years ago when I was in college, I should

have forgotten the studies, joined a sorority, and made connections like a crazy person for the 5 years I was there. I would have been WAY better off. Too bad I didn't know shit about that, thought that hard work was the key, and that who you knew was irrelevant.

[riderinthestorm]

91. Hekate, can I pm you? My daughter is in a masters program and I'd love some advice

from someone who has been there and understands the "lay of the land" so to speak on mentoring and making connections count in a very esoteric field of study.

[Hekate]

94. Certainly -- if I can help I'll be glad to

:hi:

[Mass]

61. For most, no. Between low entry level jobs salaries (if you are lucky) and students loan,

it does not keep you out of poverty.

What it gives you, though, is better opportunities to find a new job and better opportunities to get a better paying job as you acquire experience, but nothing is guarantied.

[Bert]

63. It is in fact a gamble

Especially for doctors, they are taking out a couple of hundred thousand dollars or more of loans. They may even get washed out and still have the loans. And if you dont pay the interest on these loans quickly, the amounts will double with the Sallie Mae setup we have, glad to see Obama altered that somewhat. However, you are gambling that you will make more money and be able to complete your degree as well as get a good job so that you will make enough more money to make it all worthwhile. You may not get the best grades, your industry may have a downturn, at least in your area, the whole economy may fall to shit, you may be forced out by H1B's who will work for less and make less waves. But what is you alternative? Go work at the local Ford or steel plant? Join the army?

Best to be born independently wealthy and be selected to political office so you can be sure your entire class of parasites pay little to nothing in the way of taxes and keep profitting off the backs of the poor and dissapearing middle class.

[ThomWV]

69. If you go to college to get a degree it really don't mean squat.

From what I have seen over the course of decades just about any idiot can get a college degree if they have the money and time to go to school, but those who go to college to get an education, they do just fine.

[WCGreen]

72. Exactly.

A Liberal Arts degree was viewed as the best way to prepare yourself for life.

Now there is far too much emphasis on getting a job in the field of your study.

That is why they have accounting degrees.

For this path, college is little more than a vocational degree.

[Taitertots]

84. Did you go to college?

"from what I have seen" leads me to believe you went to college. What college did you go to? I want to know which one I should avoid because any idiot could get a degree from it.

[ThomWV]

156. Yes, quite a few years ago - but it hasn't changed, any idiot can get a degree

BA, BS, doesn't matter. Any idiot that show up most of the time will end up with a degree if they just do what they are told to do.

[aikoaiko]

78. Of course not, but college degree do increase your chances of earning a decent income

as long as one is not stupid with loans and credit card debt.

[DimplesinMI]

81. Been there....done that....Unemployed with Student Loans

I believed in that dream too. The better education I obtained, the more marketable I would be to the employer. Well trust me..being unemployed for two years with over 30K in students loans...I have quickly changed that view. The worst part about this..I was only 10K in debt before I decided on an attempt to gain my Master's degree. What a bad decision, now that I look at it. On the road to poverty.........

[Taitertots]

85. I'm sure your prospects would be so much better without the degree

Did you get a degree in a field that would offer no career path?

[XOKCowboy]

101. You mean like electronic engineers?

Who's jobs have largely been outsourced overseas. Or maybe computer engineers? Same thing.

Good Luck with your degree. I hope that it has more of a future than the electrical engineers of 20 yrs thought they had.

[Gormy Cuss]

82. I strongly suspect that the later reports will discover that high debt accumulation is the culprit

perhaps in combination with mediocre education at diploma mills -- the kind of places that promise the moon, accept AND graduate students who lack the fundamental skills to succeed at a college level, and charge a boatload of tuition in the process.

Of course without looking at the data that's just a WAG.

[New Dawn]

104. Even if you have zero debt, you are still poor if you can only find low-wage jobs.

Many people with college degrees are in that situation right now.

[Orsino]

88. Our economy and government should keep everyone out of poverty.

The sheer luck involved in affording college shouldn't be a determining factor.

[dajoki]

111. Agreed...

and I had hope when this administration took office, now, not so much.

[Skittles]

92. half the people I know with college degrees are idiots

[cherokeeprogressive]

119. Not sure of the percentage, but I know and have worked with degreed people who couldn't think their

way out of a room with one open door.

[Skittles]

153. yup

[alarimer]

96. A job, ANY job should keep one out of poverty.

Degree or not, we need a LIVING WAGE act now.

[Greyhound]

97. Bingo!

I was afraid nobody would point out the obvious. Too many have lost sight of that simple fact.
:thumbsup:

[kas125]

106. My son just graduated from Purdue. He's working at

a fireworks store...

[New Dawn]

107. Exactly, there are a ton of people in that same type of situation now.

But corporate media propaganda tries to portray getting a college degree as a "ticket to success." Or at least a means of earning a living wage. That is definitely not guaranteed!

[BR_Parkway]

116. I think the whole meme that a college degree would be the key to success

in our culture has more to do with keeping the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs palatable - where I live, there were hundreds of mills doing textiles and furniture - and an entire workforce that was employed at good middle class wages that could provide for their family with only one breadwinner. Most of those workers had a high school diploma or less, most of them wanted to give their kids a better life and everyone bought into the "key to success is a college education, that'll take you out of the mill". Sadly, the mills got taken out from under all of them in the quest for more and more profits, and the college educated kids got funneled into call centers and fast food.

[dajoki]

117. Its sad...

that story could be told about nearly every town in the country.

[BR_Parkway]

118. And the PTB used that natural desire of the parents for their kids to do

well to "sell them" on the concept.

[dajoki]

137. Exactly n/t

[AngryAmish]

123. Actually, the colleges and universities put that out there

Keeps the suckers paying for useless degrees.

[raccoon]

132. Yeah, doncha know college and university faculty and staff want to keep their jobs. nt

[crazyjoe]

122. most kids these days have everything handed to them, college or no college

they are totally unprepared for "life" after their parents stop giving them stuff. They have never had to fight for anything (like a job) in life. I brought my kids up very diffently, people thought i was a mean father, now we have a nurse, and engineer, and architect in the family!!

[KamaAina]

126. This study dealt with kids from low-income backgrounds

not the ones who "have everything handed to them".

[SoCalDem]

129. Not necessarily.. There are degrees, and then there are DEGREES

A degree in the "job of the moment" can mean big bucks for those lucky enough, but there are always degrees in niche areas that will usually not amount to much in the way of "payback".. a few come to mind:

art historian
poetry
literature
library science
social work

these are all worthy degrees, but there are not many jobs attached to those degrees, and if there are, they are likely to be low-wage for many years, unless you are lucky and/or "know someone".

[Myrina]

131. ... not to mention the 'for-profit college' degrees ...

... from most of which you get a bill of about $50,000 in loans to pay back, and a degree that's basically written in crayon on a napkin.

[Greyhound]

134. Three huge former clients of mine will not even consider "graduates" from these diploma mills. n/t

[End Of The Road]

130. Some young 'uns I know are in poverty BECAUSE of their degree.

STUDENT LOANS.

[smirkymonkey]

141. That would be me, and I'm not so young anymore.

Going to graduate school was the biggest mistake I have ever made - I'm not even using the degree and I only borrowed around $45k which has now ballooned up to over $100k since I have been putting it in forebearance because I have been unable to make the minimum payment. I still can't withtout practically putting myself in poverty. I do ok, but I don't even make what I owe and I feel like I will never be able to pay it back unless I win the lottery or something highly unlikely like that.

[bobbolink]

136. recommended and booked marked for excellent information

I'm so traditional that I believe that education is pursued for its own value, not just a meal ticket.

But this is appalling, and needs serious action.

Thanks for posting!

[newtothegame]

144. Not really. A college education has been a bad investment job-wise for over a decade.

We've got people spending $100k+ to graduate with a thesis on "Ethnic and religious identity of homosexual bobbin boys during the late Baroque period." And yes, that's damn close to the thesis of one of my classmates during grad school. Knowledge is wonderful, but people come out with such obscure and inapplicable degrees/knowledge that it's hard for them to get a job in the real world.

[liberation]

150. Funny how now "real world" equals "corporate America"

Ironic given that capitalism is based in completely abstract concepts.

[newtothegame]

151. Sad reality but true reality nonetheless.

If people want to make a point by still getting those extremely obscure degrees, good for them. But the current market has no place for them.

[pundaint]

146. I would say no. Anybody with sufficient time and money can eventually find a college to pass them.

The real world requires evaluation skills and adjustment of approach, or political connections. College is merely another way of making excuses for unfair division of our birthright as citizens. The more ways the People can be divided, the harder it is for Us, to recognize our commonality of interests against our Governing/Military/Corporate oppressors. The longer they can keep US separated, the further ahead they can get.

[LWolf]

159. Not when it costs so much to get the degree that you are left

hobbled by debt when you graduate, and not if you can't find a job that uses that degree.

Not if your degree puts you to work in the public sector.