Out of curiosity: would you/could you pay 5,6,7 dollars a gallon for gas?

[TZ]

I hate offshore drilling as much as anything and what BP did is sickening. But the sad fact is the reason why we have such cheap gas as opposed to the rest of the world is because of things like offshore drilling. I think a complete ban on it would be disasterous for our still weak economy--gas prices would shoot up at a time when many people are barely surviving financially as it is.
I could, because I have a decent secure job and I don't drive much (my commute is 8 miles round trip.
And despite what people think, most people can't just avoid gasoline altogether either. Most people can't/won't bike to work and even if they take public transportation thats still using gasoline,if a lot less than individual driving.
Our current way of life is so dependent on oil its not funny. We obviously need to look at switching to alternate energy sources. But thats going to take a long time.
This is a difficult and long problem to solve. And while I'm going to have my own personal boycott of BP, I don't think just ending off shore drilling is the answer......:(

[liberal N proud]

1. It would be have to pay it

It would be looking at what else do I have to give up to keep driving to work.

There is no public transportation option where I live.

[Statistical]

2. You WILL pay 5, 6, 7 dollars a gallon eventually (even with offshore drilling).

It is only a matter of when. Anyone still alive for next 20, 30, 40 years will see gas prices that high and likely even higher.

[depakid]

26. When will very likely be by the middle of this decade- and maybe sooner

My guess is that the administration knows that, which is a major reason why they went ahead with their own, ill fated drilling pronouncement as sort of a political prophylactic against the cries of drill, baby drill.

If only they've waited- and used that as a compromise position during the climate bill debate rather than having played their preemptive, unilateral concession game again....

[Statistical]

31. Yup. Even the DOE (which is very conservative on prices) is waking up to that reality. $200 oil.

Also note these prices are in 2008 thus not adjusted for inflation.

The high estimate for 2020 is roughly $200 oil (in 2008).

Say inflation from 2008 to 2020 averages 3%. That is $285 per barrel in 2020 dollars. $10 rise in oil adds about $0.20 at the pump (assuming taxes remain flat).

$285 oil means gasoline prices in the $7 range. Also demand will fall at $7 per gallon gasoline (higher efficiency vehicles) which means less tax revenue (taxes are flat per gallon not % of price) thus we can expect gasoline taxes to rise pushing prices even higher.

[Fumesucker]

3. At sixty plus miles per gallon it wouldn't bother me all that much..

My relatives in the UK already pay close to that..

[county worker]

17. My first bike was a Honda Silverwing. That 500cc engine use to vibrate quite a bit.

My hands always tingled for a long time after riding. I would like to have another one again though for the nostalgia. I lived in Los Angeles and road from Hollywood to Santa Monica a lot.

[Fumesucker]

42. The reason Honda made the CX and GL 500's an 80 degree twin instead of a 90 degree one..

The 90 degree prototype was "too smooth"..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_CX_series

Initially conceived as having a full 90 degree angle between the cylinders like the similar Italian Moto Guzzi machines, early testers reported that the prototypes were too smooth.

My grips are very soft and I have a throttle lock cruise control for long trips, I've had bikes that vibrated worse and I've ridden Harleys that you couldn't go five miles on without your hands, feet and butt going to sleep.

I'm near Atlanta and we have some nice curvy roads around here too, the Blue Ridge Parkway is particularly popular with bikers.

[WestSeattle2]

4. You hit the nail on the head.....many of those screaming to halt

all offshore drilling will be the first to scream when a gallon of gas hits $6. The fact that that would decimate all those earning minimum wage or close to it, is of no concern to them. I believe that most of the screamers live in high-density urban areas surrounded by public transportation.

[BeFree]

47. Screamers?

WTF? Did you come up with that on your own or did you listen to Palinbaugh too much?

Yeah, I'm one of those greenies that is to blame for BP going cheap and screwing the gulf to hell. So now we're screamers?

[WestSeattle2]

97. If your response is an illogical, irresponsible "no more offshore oil"

then yes, you're a screamer.

[old mark]

5. It's not a matter of "would" it is a matter of when we have to.

Gas in Europe has been that high and higher for decades, and AFAIK there is not much to be done about it but make more efficient a transportation that relies less on oil based fuels.

We are spoiled and have been since cars became popular.
Nothing new.

mark

[TZ]

9. But a immediate jump

in price, which is what a ban would do, would DEVASTATE our economy.

[old mark]

56. Especially with so many out of work and such poor public transportation.

Many-especially rural and even suburban people-would be totally isolated and unable to get anywhere even to shop or look for work.

We are stuck with oil-and coal-and nuclear power-for some time to come and there is NO MAGIC solution.

mark

[TZ]

67. Yep. Even here in DC where we have decent public transportation

its so overloaded NOW that things have been getting bad. Our subway system is having an awful time of it lately..fatal accidents, delays, horrid overcrowding and now HUGE fare increases. I cannnot imagine what would happen in DC with a huge sudden spike in gasoline prices..:scared:

[old mark]

86. We have busses here, and taxis and that's it other than private cars.

Sadly, this is Reading, PA, once home of a railroad - we have NO passenger rail connection at all...I have to drive either to Philly or Lancaster to catch a passenger train anywhere. (Philly train station is over 2 hours drive each way.)

And ALL our food etc is delivered to the stores by truck.

mark

[Statistical]

89. Oh the sad irony of no railroad in Reading. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. n/t

[old mark]

91. Like Sarah Palin, I can see something from my house - The 19th Century

brick train repair building for the old Reading Railroad - they built, re-built and repaired railroad cars there for many decades. It is a large garage and storage area now for salt used for snow and ice control on the streets.
I can see it from my patio.

mark

[RKP5637]

6. Some of us have no choice until we get public transportation that in usable/available in

more locations, as well as reasonably priced alternative vehicles. IMO people don't choose to use gas, sadly at this state we are dependent on it...

It will take IMO a massive gov. program to switch. We need a heavy investment in alternative energy/vehicles, but none want to pay taxes for such and also want cheap gas. Everyone for the most part wants everything as is typical in America.

Additionally we have a corp. run gov. many with vested interests in keeping things the way they are... money talks and commands great power, and often that is in direct conflict with the best solution.

[NNN0LHI]

7. How about we just go back to purchasing the cheap, safe oil from those countries that don't like us?

Would that be too much to consider?

Don

[Statistical]

18. Countries that don't like us sell oil for the same price. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

21. Is that 'price' before or after the cost of the current Gulf oil spill is factored in?

[Statistical]

23. Is the 3 decade long oil spill in Nigerian Delta somehow better?

Oil is oil. Doesn't matter where you get it. If you want oil you will have oil spills.

I don't see killing Marine life off the coast of Nigerian a whole lot better than killing it off the coast of FLorida.

Given we consume 25% of worlds oil maybe we need more spills close to home (rather in some African country) to drive home the point how damaging oil consumption is. Maybe?

[ecstatic]

41. That's the point I've been wondering about. I'm not thrilled about drilling

ANYWHERE. Spills will happen wherever drilling is done. So if Americans are driving cars that use oil, should we just be blinded to the consequences of oil use while other countries suffer? The ugly American stereotype comes to mind...

[Statistical]

49. It is sad. We happilly consume way more energy than any other country on the planet.

Yet we are only upset when it destroys "our earth" as if Nigerian Delta was on another planet or connected to a different ocean.

Maybe massive spills close to home (as opposed to near the homes of brown people) is a good thing. Americans will need stop being in denial and realize that our lifestyle is destroying the planet.

[meeshrox]

48. You know, you have a wonderful point...

Would it matter if our oil came from the Niger Delta (Shell) or the Amazon (Chevron)? Shell, Chevron, BP...really, why would it matter whose environment is destroyed? All of these oil companies have at least one major environmental disaster and all of them have screwed the residents of those regions. Shell's problems, unfortunately, are not just marine spill damage. Residents have revolted and now it's an issue with human life, too.

There are so many pages for the Niger Delta/Shell issue:
http://www.essentialaction.org/shell/issues.html
http://www.amnesty.org.au/action/action/21246/

Shell's "official" page for conditions in the Delta:
http://www.shell.com/home/content/environment_society/society/nigeria/conditions/


Not that I have answers to the problems other than switching the oil company subsidies to renewable energy subsidies! Obama has pledged to do that, so I guess that's a start!

[northoftheborder]

22. Yes, I purchased a Prius.....

as soon as I could, and I will buy an electric hybrid or an electric car as soon as they come out and access to charging stations are available. Our city just built a very sophisticated and expensive light rail out to one the suburbs, and I'm shocked to learn that the commuters are not pouring onto it, and usage is less than estimated. We are too spoiled driving our huge cars around everywhere we want - we have to change - and change a lot. I'm nearly 75 years old, and won't be driving forever, so I am very interested in public transit being MUCH better than it is now. The selfishness and greed of the nation as a whole for the last 30 years has produced the situation we are in now. I fear for my grandchildren. This generation (my children) has failed. What happened to the "Age of Acquarius" ?? We must inspire those we know to push for change, for a different paradigm, an attitude that we're all in this together. The hate, the narrowmindedness, the suppression of even listening to new ideas must be changed into effort to solve problems for all of us. I don't know how we do that, but our election system has to change first. Get the money out it. That's the bottom line.

[SocialistLez]

59. If you don't mind sharing, what city do you live in?

I've checked out the DART system in Dallas and I'd LOVE to live in Dallas to be able to use their public transportation system. Looking on the website, it was amazing what places the buses or light rail will take you.

I know other cities have better public transportation system but there is something about Dallas I like.

[MH1]

64. give the light rail time, I bet it is packed after a few years

I live in Philly burbs and there's a massive transit system that gets knocked for a lot of issues (cleanliness, or rather lack thereof; timeliness, or rather, lack thereof; etc) and yet the trains are packed full during commuting hours.

People just need to learn about it and get used to using it.

[asdjrocky]

8. That only leads to other questions.

What do I get for my 5, 6, 7 dollar gallon of gas? Is it just a gallon of gas that keeps the richest corporations richer, or do I get more?

Do I get cleaner air and safe and pristine beaches? Do we get to keep Alaska beautiful? Do we get fast trains and better transportation systems?

There are a lot of arguments for higher fuel costs, the question is, where the higher prices go.

[Brickbat]

10. Yes.

I like driving, and I like living where I live.

ETA: Of course, the price of everything -- particularly food -- would go up, too.

[tsuki]

11. I am torn on this one. Higher prices would hurt an already underseige

middle class. But, it would also lead to fuel saving measures, like 4/40 AC, less idling in parking lots to keep the car cool, organized trips, inflated tires, calls for more fuel efficient vehicles, etc.

The answer will be long, difficult and painful.

[Selatius]

12. I could pay that kind of price. I wouldn't like it though.

But I live relatively close to work and drive a 4-cylinder that gets like 30mpg in city driving. Unfortunately, American infrastructure is not really designed for that kind of strain because there really isn't a mass transit grid. A lot of people would become tied down to their localities. It would be as if the United States reverted back to an earlier age where travel was much more difficult.

[arcadian]

13. I'l be sharpening my knives

Because when that day comes people will be starving in the streets as food prices will also go through the roof.

[Statistical]

20. People are starving in France? Japan? Most of Europe & Asia? n/t

[arcadian]

33. They have been used to paying higher prices for gas.

Here a shock to the system like will more than likely send us tumbling. Why do you think they are so frantically trying to maintain that status quo.

[Statistical]

35. It isn't going to double overnight.

Also if prices do go from $3 to $7 overnight in the US guess what happens in Europe.
Yup $7 to $11 in same amount of time.

Oil prices are going higher and they are going higher quickly. People need to get real about that.

If you own a giant Dodge Ram which you use to commute and look cool might be time to sell it and not when gas is $5+ and rising.

[nichomachus]

65. Using the price of gas in other countries is misleading

First, they don't drive as much as we do. You don't find people driving 60+ miles each way to work. They don't have to get in the car just to go get a loaf of bread, go clothes shopping, or go to a movie or a restaurant. You can walk. Also, they all have fantastic public transportation systems. I have never felt the need of a car in Europe. In the US, there are only about five cities where you can get around without a car. I was recently in Barcelona. You can go almost anywhere in the city in 10 minutes by metro for less than $1 US. You can also walk. In three weeks, I used the metro three times.

Second, they drive much smaller cars in general. SUVs and the like are a rarity.

Third, their cars get much better gas mileage that the exact same model in the US. A friend who has moved to Europe had a car in the US that got 20 mpg. He has no car in Europe, but recently had to rent one and got the exact same model he had in the US. He got 54 mpg.

[Statistical]

69. Exactly all those things were driven by HIGHER fuel prices.

If tomorrow gasoline was $5 a gallon I guarantee you there will be less SUV and more hybrids sold.

[nichomachus]

76. No, that's not true

Having vibrant, easy-to-maneuver inner cities was not driven by the price of gas. That was just a sane planning decision made by sane people -- rather than being driven by real estate developers. That's just misinformation. Having cars that get shitty gas mileage in the US is not the result of the price of gas, but corporate greed. Gas companies regularly frustrate attempts to enforce gas mileage standards. There is no reason the same model car should get 20 mpg in the US and 54 mpg in Europe -- except corporate greed.

Also, much of the price of gas in Europe is from taxes -- which then go to fund social programs like single-payer universal health care, good public transportation, infrastructure maintenance, etc.

[Statistical]

80. Real Estate development was driven by LOWER fuel prices.

McMansions in suburbia makes a lot more sense at $1.00 a gallon gasoline then it does at $7 a gallon gasoline.

"Having cars that get shitty gas mileage in the US is not the result of the price of gas, but corporate greed."

Really? We have fuel efficient cars right now. 30mpg, 40mpg, 50mpg. They have been continually outsold by 10-20mpg SUV for a decade.

Why? BECAUSE GASOLINE HAS BEEN SO DAMN CHEAP. The same exact companies sell much higher efficiency vehicles in Europe? Same year, same companies, different models in Europe. Why? Higher fuel prices make things like a Hummer look stupid.

"There is no reason the same model car should get 20 mpg in the US and 54 mpg in Europe"
Provide a single example. You can't.

[murray hill farm]

14. It really is not a matter of "if"...

since we will all pay that much and more in the probably near future. Individuals will need gov't help financially in transitioning to electric vehicles, but it will be less costly than continuing with the oil addiction. This can be done.

[stray cat]

15. i work for a living and can't afford to live near where I work so yes

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

16. millions do and seem to get by,

I find the idea around here that people will somehow stop driving because of gas prices funny, check out Toulouse France $9 a gallon and people there drive absolutely everywhere.

[Luminous Animal]

19. Actually, the pretax cost of gas in Europe is about the same as the U.S.

http://www.babeled.com/2008/06/02/us-versus-european-gas-prices/

And, as the article points out, depending on the strength of the dollar, the pretax cost can be less in Europe than the U.S.

[Fumesucker]

32. Who buys gas in Europe without paying the taxes?

I have family in the UK and they are all paying around $5 to $6 a gallon or more.

Very few giant SUVs over there..

[Luminous Animal]

40. The OP claims that we in the U.S. pay less for gas because of off-shore drilling.

And that simply is not true. U.S. and European pretax price for gas is about the same. The reason why Europeans pay more for gas at the pump is because of they pay more in taxes.

[Fumesucker]

44. The OP is right and wrong at the same time..

We don't pay less because of off shore drilling but we would pay more without it..

[KittyWampus]

24. Indirectly we already are through subsidies & health problems.

[meeshrox]

55. Precisely. I wonder what the real gas price is when the subsidies are factored in?

Something to look into...has someone already done the calculation?

I LOVE Google!
http://www.icta.org/doc/Real%20Price%20of%20Gasoline.pdf

The "real price" is on page 34. They list their financial contributors (including Union of Concerned Scientists and Sierra Club) and methodology, too. Haven't read through the whole thing (yet).

[Demoiselle]

25. I drive very little. I would pay that if I had to.

But I know it presents a huge problem for people who must drive long distances every day.
I live at the edge of a big city and have two commuter train stations 3 minutes walk from my house, which does a little to lessen the problem...but not enough, of course.
Europe has sky high gas prices and, in general, an extremely efficient public transportation system, all focused on big city population centers. We've become a nation of suburbs...after WWII we chose to cover the outlying countryside with houses. I hope we can rethink it all. But its gonna take a lot of time, effort and a willingness to change.

[Winterblues]

27. Virtually everything in america is delivered by truck

YOU would not just pay 5,6, or 7 dollars a gallon. Every single thing in every store would go up drastically in price..

[kestrel91316]

28. Well, we DID pay a tad over $4 just a couple of years ago here.

$5 is only 20% more. We'll be paying it soon enough.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. The question isn't "would" it's "How much". n/t

[Klukie]

30. No and neither would most Americans

Remember what happened when gas prices went up during the Bush years? People cut back because they couldn't afford it and out of principle. Plus we saw a huge demand for fuel efficient vehicles and a huge decline in Gas guzzler sales. We need to be forced into being responsible and economics is the only way it will happen..I say bring on the high cost.

[cherokeeprogressive]

34. Yes, and so will most Americans.

Think about it... do we have a fucking choice? Not every city/burb/rural area has available public transportation. In fact, relatively few do.

You think the economy is bad now? Wait till gas gets as high as some here want it to. We're fucked either way.

[ecstatic]

36. A guy I know from London said gas is currently $10/gallon!!!!!

American's would riot if prices ever got that high here.

[Romulox]

37. I rock an 1.8l i4. I'm not afraid! nt

[Dappleganger]

38. Yes, but we'd have to ride scooters and eat rice and beans.

Rice and beans I can deal with as long as we can add our own veggies. Scooters in this area would be dangerous outside of our 5-mile neighborhood/shopping zone. I worry that the community college and local university are farther away than that.

Dh would ride a motorcycle to work (25 miles each way) with no problem. So yeah, we could make it work. The public transit in our area is nearly non-existent (very car-centric city, a collection of suburban neighborhoods).

What you're forgetting is that when gas is pushed that high everything else goes up in price as far as goods are concerned. It also really hurts the truck drivers and any other business which depends upon driving.

I am all for raising gas taxes to stick it the oil companies to force them to help us with alternative fuel research and implementation.

[joeybee12]

39. Yup...however, conservation is NOT a dirty word...

...and if we have some leaders who knew this and led the charge, offshore drilling would be a thing of the past.

[jgraz]

43. Seriously? We have TWO PERCENT of the world's oil reserves.

And oil supply hasn't affected the price of gas since the Reagan administration. It's all governed by big finance and speculation.

[TZ]

45. Hmm.

I think you aren't entirely right. I remember well what happened to the prices when Katrina came and all the gulf platforms were shut down.

[Gormy Cuss]

50. But was that the market taking advantage of the situation or was it supply-driven?

Price gouging is a common response to fear of shortage. If there is a perception of a shortage people are willing to pay more for a product.

[TZ]

52. Oil prices have more to do with perception of supply

than actual supply. I have no doubt that if the Federal Government banned ALL offshore drilling the price of oil would triple overnight. Just because the prices aren't really tied to supply doesn't mean it wouldn't be devastating to the economy.

[Gormy Cuss]

57. Two years ago gasoline cost about $1.25 more than it does today.

(DOE estimate, 6/2/2008: $3.98/ gallon. 5/31/10: $2.73/gallon.) Two years ago wasn't the peak price -- it was already declining. The reasons for that decline are complex but it's very likely that part of the explanation is that the gas prices had gone too high, too fast and people reacted by reducing demand. I suspect that the faster the gas prices increase, the more precipitous the drop in the demand.

When the most recent runup happened people also sought out ways to reduce their costs in the longer run by looker for work closer to home or replacing gas-guzzling vehicles with ones that had better fuel efficiency. During the Arab Oil Embargo in 1973 or so, the reaction was similar. So if the price of gasoline suddenly shoots up to $6 or $7/ gallon I would expect the reaction again.

There may be short term negative consequences on the economy and there would most certainly be severe negative consequences for people living from check to check but the overall effect on the economy? I'm not an economist so I won't Frist that one.

[Greyhound]

77. Exactly, the price is determined by speculation, not supply. Therefore,

it is not a 'free market', but is controlled by a cabal. This situation requires one good-faith supplier who's pricing will force the re-imposition of competition.

[ixion]

46. Big Oil thanks you for your support

there are other ways of getting around. It just takes motivation. That's to Big Oil apologists, that motivation has been delayed for decades. It will, however, be necessary. We're burning off a finite resource. Let's use our brains for once and move on.

[TZ]

51. Yay! The "I must be a shill" post!

What universe do YOU live in that you don't know how destructive suddenly banning oil would be? 50% unemployment and a poverty rate that was as high as any third world country would IMMEDIATELY result.
I'm sorry nothing is that easy. And if you think that its okay to just go off oil cold turkey you are not only uninformed but pretty god damned insensitive. Just thinking about all the people (most of whom are middle class people) employed by big oil who would be out of a job (and a livelihood and their houses) if we did as you suggested is frigtening. Or did you learn nothing from what happened in Detroit? Ugh. :banghead:

[ixion]

93. Please show me where I said "ban immediately"

because I didn't say that. I DID say that Big Oil has stifled alternative energy for decades, so if we're going to have a problem, it will be our own fault.

Again: Oil is a finite resource. Whether you like it or not, we will have to find alternate sources of energy. That is just a simple fact.

[meeshrox]

53. Your post reminded me of a line from BNL

'Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.'


I'm sure they had different context when that was written... :)


See, I talk with my husband about banning offshore drilling quite a bit, even before this leak. We live in Tampa Bay and dread the thought of our dumb-fuck state legislature allowing drilling in state waters. I know that drilling could never just stop. But, using that as a reason to not make the hard economic decision to switch over to sustainable energy is a cop-out my husband uses as a crutch all the time. We disagree strongly on this. I think it's necessary.

[RT Atlanta]

54. YES

If we could use the tax money now for some serious human and social infrastructure investment. Gladly would I pay that sum per gallon.

[SocialistLez]

58. I wouldn't mind it IF my car were more fuel efficient.

I'd love to see an increase in the gas tax that would go towards funding mass transit projects.
I'd love to take the bus to most of the places I go BUT the bus service around here sucks.

The price of gas is going to go up eventually and it's time we started preparing for it in a hurried fashion.

[guitar man]

60. Yes, I could

It would be the perfect excuse to spend more time with my baby :)

[leftyladyfrommo]

61. I would have to. I'm a petsitter and I have to drive to get to my work.

I would have to add the cost of gas into my prices

[jp11]

62. I could pay more and I think a tax for subsidizing renewable energy sources or fund discounts

for alternate fuel vehicles is a good idea. IF gas went to 5-6+ a hybrid or Electric Vehicle would be on my to do list sooner rather than later. I don't drive very far to work so I could deal with a higher price on gas but the other areas where high oil prices go up might be a different story, fuel surcharges on goods moved via truck/plane etc I don't think we'd see that if it was a .25 or .50 tax on every gallon of gas/diesel but again I don't know.

Anyway I agree stopping all drilling isn't the solution, no more deep sea drilling, *maybe* that can go on *if* there are significant and substantial backups/safety plans for accidents but otherwise no and it is just a way to continue our ways of excess over facing the change we need to deal with. The primary focus IMO should be pushing for changes to how we get around, oil alternatives, and immediately much higher fuel efficiency on vehicles, as well as the way oil is used in products all the plastic garbage we make.

[MH1]

63. I could and would.

There should be some tax credit figured to help lower income folks who would be impacted by the increased transit cost. A higher credit should apply in areas where there is no mass transit. States should bear some of the burden because that could incentivize expanded mass transit.

[phantom power]

66. We already pay it. We pay it in oil wars and climate change and BP's oil gusher.

[hobbit709]

68. Gas here is cheap because we don't tax the shit out of it like in Europe.

If we taxed it at $3/gal it would cost about the same as in Germany.

[entanglement]

70. Most people would be "HUGHly, seriesly screwn" at $5 per gallon, not to mention $7. Eleventy!!11!

[seabeyond]

71. the problem here is ALL living expensive ahs risen dramatically and wage is lower....

so you haev a double hit. not only is our wage not rising to meet cost of leveling rise, but our wage is tanking. being hit twice as hard

raise the gas price and it is just more money lost and harder to make it at the end of the day

jobs arent so easy to find. not in large city, only transportation is car.

[Confusious]

72. There is no choice, we would have to bend over and get raped.

We've made this a car country. We did it to ourselves. So can you really rape yourself?

[GreenStormCloud]

73. I remember when gas was $.10 per gallon. Yes, ten cents per. N/T

[Desertrose]

79. I remember 29¢..... n/t

[quiller4]

74. Because we drive less than 5500 miles each year I wouldn't mind. n/t

[JuniperLea]

75. The rest of the world pays that price and higher...

And we will be paying it too, eventually, with or without offshore drilling.

[G_j]

78. let us not forget,

let us not forget,

(I've probably posted this 20 times in the last month, because it's the biggest elephant in the room)


http://www.energybulletin.net/node/13199


The US military oil consumption
by Sohbet Karbuz

The US Department of Defense (DoD) is the largest oil consuming government body in the US and in the world

“Military fuel consumption makes the Department of Defense the single largest consumer of petroleum in the U.S” <1>

“Military fuel consumption for aircraft, ships, ground vehicles and facilities makes the DoD the single largest consumer of petroleum in the U.S” <2>

According to the US Defense Energy Support Center Fact Book 2004, in Fiscal Year 2004, the US military fuel consumption increased to 144 million barrels. This is about 40 million barrels more than the average peacetime military usage.

By the way, 144 million barrels makes 395 000 barrels per day, almost as much as daily energy consumption of Greece.

The US military is the biggest purchaser of oil in the world.

In 1999 Almanac edition of the Defense Logistic Agency’s news magazine Dimensions it was stated that the DESC “purchases more light refined petroleum product than any other single organization or country in the world. With a $3.5 billion annual budget, DESC procures nearly 100 million barrels of petroleum products each year. That's enough fuel for 1,000 cars to drive around the world 4,620 times.”

..more..

[grahamhgreen]

81. YES YES YES YES YES YES YES - ESPECIALLY WHEN IT MEANS REAL HEALTH CARE AND RENEWABLE ENERGY!

[laughingliberal]

82. Our business is barely hanging on. That would be the end of us.

We've cut our driving to the bone but we can't avoid pick up and delivery. We're hanging on as best we can but, unless the economy makes a big turnaround, we're done for. I think $4 per gallon would be the end at this point.

[TZ]

87. i'm sorry to hear that.

I figure you wouldn't be the only ones this would happen to...:-(

[laughingliberal]

90. No, we would not be. In our part of Nevada most in our business have closed up shop.

And the ones who haven't are, like us, about to starve. But, at our age, the chance of finding a job is a joke. Our only option is to keep plugging along, doing the little work that comes our way and hope for the best. We're basically working for food and gas money. I keep wondering if we'd do better on the corner with a sign.

[HuckleB]

83. We'd drive much less, especially around town.

We live in a pedestrian and bicyclist friendly city, with fair mass transit, however. It would not be as difficult for us to make more of a transition away from the car than we already have done. People in other areas might find such a transition to be much more difficult, I suspect.

[Cleobulus]

84. Gas is more expensive in the rest of the world especially Europe because of...

taxation which pays for things like public transportation, which reduces per capita oil consumption. Prices at the pump only reflect a small price compared to everything else we rely on oil for. First things first, the United States imports approximately three quarters of its oil from mostly Canada and Mexico though significant portions from elsewhere(Middle East, Venezuela, etc.).

In addition, additional reserves of oil offshore are simply not big enough to offset future price increases from dwindling supply or increased worldwide and national demand. We are talking cents here, a decade or more down the road. Current reserves, at this time, aren't going last nearly as long as people think, and all future exploration, off both coasts, the Arctic, etc. aren't going to be worth it.

I'm not saying that just stopping the pumps on current platforms won't cause price shocks, they would, and pretty severe as well, however, frankly, we are going to get price shocks, the question is when. You can forget paying 5, 6, 7, or even 10 dollars for a gallon of gas, I'm more concerned with paying 5-6 dollars for a loaf of bread. Compared to most of western Europe and Canada, our wages are already severely depressed, on average, compared to theirs, and even with things such as VAT etc, they have public safety nets much more robust than ours, their money "travels farther" so to speak, to help low income workers. We barely have a safety net to begin with.

So we have a combination of factors that leave us completely unprepared for oil shortages, an oil dependent economy for food, technology, manufacturing, transportation, etc. that has no alternatives to replace it within this decade. These are going to be interesting times.

[JoeyT]

85. I could. I could also afford to pay the increased price for other goods that would come with it.

The problem is that many people couldn't.
I'm continuously baffled by people that insist that what we really need is $10 a gallon gas. Starving all of our poor when the price of food skyrockets wouldn't be worth whatever benefit we could get out of it. Do we really want to see parents that are barely scraping by paying twelve bucks a gallon for milk? Yes, Europe pays more than we do for gas: They also don't have to truck their food the distances we do. Growing it locally isn't an option in most places. I'm as pissed off at BP and oil companies as anyone and have been for a long time. But I'm not willing to sacrifice the poor to force a lifestyle change. There are other ways to do it that won't cause mass starvation.

A much better way (IMO) to save the planet without starving a significant percentage of our populace to death would be to mandate all new cars get 60+ MPG 2 years from now and make the car companies stick to it. Yes, Republicans will bitch that it's TEH SOCIALIZMS@!!!! but they're going to claim that about anything anyway, so we may as well do some good while they cry. It's not like that's an unworkable goal. We've had cars that weren't hybrids that got almost that much before.

Edited to add: For a lot of people in this country the price of gas may not mean the difference between making their next choice a hybrid/electric or a guzzler, it may mean the difference between life and death. What good are social programs like food stamps if it takes a month's worth of stamps to feed a family for a day and they starve the other 29? We liberals HAVE to think of what a policy or decision will do to the poor because no one else is going to.

[Statistical]

88. True cost of gasoline about $15 per gallon.

We are already paying that it is just mostly hidden (subsidies, tax breaks, low cost oil leases, tax credits, offsets, cost of expanded roads/highways/etc, pollution costs, etc).

The price at the pump is an illusion. Gasoline is very expensive and pretty good our government won't be able to hide it anymore.

[blindpig]

92. Take the profits out of it. Nationalize.

[Yo_Mama]

94. This is a good question

I drive a small car and could kind of do it, although sometimes I'd fly instead of drive.

But a lot of people would lose their jobs (such as they have) because they wouldn't earn enough to offset travel costs and they'd have no alternative way of getting there.

There is another factor here, which is that both food production and goods transportation is utterly dependent on petroleum. If petroleum costs rise sharply, the price of food and all goods will also rise sharply. Many of the less prosperous residents will abruptly find themselves paying far more just to eat and buy the basics like clothing and medicine. So it is a double whammy; the average household would find that food and basics abruptly consumed 10% more of their after-tax income, and bang, we'd be in a depression. Also, a lot of people would be very cold in winter.

Here is data for distillate (diesel and heating oil) by end usage from EIA:
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_cons_821dst_dcu_nus_a.htm
You notice that about 80% of it is rail/truck/farm/industrial. Quite a bit of gas usage is also farm/industrial, gas usage is higher in rural areas per capita. But most trucking and heavy farm/construction machinery uses diesel.

At this point gasoline accounts for less than half (between 40-45%) of all US petroleum usage. 2004 graph here:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/dem_image_us_cons_prod.htm

US gas consumption has dropped since 2004:
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=C100000001&f=A

It seems to me as if electric vehicles are beginning to show some hope, although battery capacity and replacement cost are the constraining factors. But even if no single person in the US were running a petroleum-supplied car for transport, our economy would still be acutely dependent on oil and large variations in the end cost of oil would still determine whether the economy grows or shrinks.

The issue is how we can get our energy with the least damage to the environment. Assuming that electric vehicles for commuting purposes do become workable, we will need very large new supplies of US electricity, and it will have to be from non-green resources (except for hydropower), because wind is far too unreliable and solar will not generate power during the prime recharge hours.

There has been an effective block in the US on new hydropower projects, and I think we might want to revisit that. It is true that they do have an impact on the environment, but overall they seem to have far less of an impact than either the new gen of natural gas wells (having a terrible impact on ground water) and or deep-sea drilling.

It might well be that the near-coastal drilling and the tar/shale sources are significantly less environmentally damaging than the deep-sea accidents. The East Timor deep-water spill last year was another new deep-water project that resulted in huge ocean contamination.

[SoCalDem]

95. GLADLY....... if

we had:

national health care for all with NO point-of-service/out-of-pocket payments

no-cost college for our kids

top notch public transportation at a fair price

4-6 weeks paid vacations for all workers

generous PAID maternity-paternity benefits for new parents

unemployment benefits for all unemployed (regardless of their "former employer's participation"

old age pensions for our elders


you know.. stuff like that.. the things that civilized countries have.. It makes car-ownership & gas-buying "easier" to accept..and many Europeans only rent a car now and then,. when they WANT to drive somewhere.. their other transportation needs are met via public transportation..

[a la izquierda]

96. Hell to the no.

I don't have to pay it and I sure as hell wouldn't. But I do understand that there are people in this country who do not have such choices.

[taterguy]

98. We have cheap gas because we subsidize automobile usage

That policy was understandable in 1950, when we didn't realize that oil was a limited resource and we weren't aware of how bad it was for the environment.

Things have changed.

The problem is how to undo the damage we've done.

Can we?

I dunno.

Think I'll have another beer.

[Warren Stupidity]

99. Yes if in exchange the tax revenue was invested in green transportation

technology - public transportation, alternative fuel vehicle infrastructure etc. Europe has been doing this for decades now and they are way ahead of us. They have extensive public transportation systems, major investments in alternative power, their cars all get much higher mileage, etc. We are the Empire of Dumb.

[DailyGrind51]

100. I could not afford it on my salary, yet I really need my car to get to work.