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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 07:29 PM
Original message
"When do you want people to die?"
When do you want people to die?

I'm watching Moore's CAPITALISM right now, and at the place in the film where he is talking with the attorney who is investigating the deaths of workers whose companies secretly insured them and then collected the money as beneficiary, Moore asks him that question.

"When do you want people to die?"

The only things the attorney could come up with are
1. War
2. Terrorism
3. Drug trials.

Right here on DU, we have heard from people who have been telling us that there ARE people who want them to die:

1. People who have been ill or injured, and waiting to get disability. They are put off year after year, until they get the message that they are suppposed to die to save the government money.

2. People who are on disability, and there is constant effort to find ways of cutting them off, even though that means there will be no means of survival.

So, what about it, DU? Why are THESE cases of suffering and potential death not a cause du jour for liberals or progressives? Why is there no outrage on our behalf?

Why is there no mass outcry to change this abominable state of affairs?

Are there lives that are worth more than other lives?

Is it only some causes that can receive popular support?

Be honest here, DUers. WHY do you not take up this cause, and save some lives?

We're waiting to hear from you.

People are literally dying.
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. K & R
I'll comment more tomorrow, Bobbie. I'm a little emotionally fried at the moment.
My dog broke his harness, jumped our fence, and bit a Chihuahua. It's been a messed up 24 hours.

I do hope people read this important post.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. I'll be looking forward to your comments tomorrow.
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caseycoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R
It seems that sick people, old people & poor people are not on any high priority lists. After all, how useful are they?
:sarcasm:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. We sure are useful if we just die and save money.
Of course, if liberals and progressives would actually work on our behalf, we would VOTE for them, thus being "useful".

:shrug:
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. May I suggest a reason?
We are all too comfortable...

And with our leaders they are also comfortable just the way they are....making good money and living the good life and their future is so bright they need shades...so why stir things up too much.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. What can we best do to make you uncomfortable?
"Afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted".

How would you like to be afflicted?

As the saying goes, careful what you wish for.

YOU could end up betting on which comes first, your disability or your death.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I am afraid I am already as uncomfortable as I can get.
things have not been going to well lately in terms of the world as a whole...
We need a change of heart and who knows that might be on the horizon.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Then who was the "we" to whom you are referring?
Edited on Sun May-02-10 08:14 PM by bobbolink
Are you as uncomfortable as those being cut off, those waiting with no income?

I ask again... when does it become important?
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
32. yes I am on the downhill side of life.
But I can still feed and care for myself for now.
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Mojeoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
72. I am on disability and I almost can feel the vibes of tea baggers
telling me to kill myself.
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I ain't going anywhere!
So they can f**k off!
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chillspike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. Those people have to be set up somehow
There has to be a way to use technological advances in self sufficient living models to support these people when and if they lose their government support. I would buy them land somewhere and help them put up cheap off- grid housing that doesn't have a mortgage for one and no electricity bills. Just for starters.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. "Those people"? "United We Stand", right?
So, that sounds like a fine idea. How to get that started at DU?

People are suffering and dying. Its time to DO Something.
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chillspike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
9.  How to have a home with no house payments and no utility bills!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I'm sure that is easily done on $674 a month.
Or the $0 that many DUers are getting, as they wait to see which comes first, their death or their disability.

So, what are you going to do about it?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. "Those people" are all of us.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. thank you.
How quickly some forget.

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chillspike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. you make it sound like because i use the pronoun "those"
Edited on Sun May-02-10 08:24 PM by chillspike
...i am denying they are people when i only meant it as they are of a special case. of course we should help them...and the problem is dependence...i'm not talking about the dependence the right wingers are always complaining about...i'm talking about the dependence that makes people slaves to others...capitalism and socialism are two sides of the same coin, with socialism being the kinder side but both requiring dependence...we need to free people from the overwhelming dependence, whether it is on an unscrupulous employer or the government, on others by making people more self sufficient. and you take steps toward that by eliminating recurring bills that come with the cost of living. You eliminate the mortgage, you eliminate the electricity and water bills, etc. you free people up while reducing the burden on others. especially those who complain about their tax money going to helping people. you push new technologies like safe cloning of food. if food can be cloned in the lab (which it can), that technology can be shrunken down and moved into the private home so people can eventually supply their own food from a few initial cells. in the meantime, you provide the programs people need to survive but you push these self sufficient living models so you side step the debate in the future of whose responsibility it is for helping the unemployed. because people are going to always argue about where and to whom their earnings go. they will always argue about it. the idea is to avoid the whole argument.
i personally think a portion of every ones earnings should go to help. i really don't believe that any one person's earnings are entirely their own. i feel we are all part of the same GROUP species. if we were meant to not help other members of our species we would have evolved into a solitary one.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. "Those people"
"Those people"
Blacks

"Those people"
Homeless people

"Those people"
Women

"Those people"
Latinos

"Those people"
Gays

"Those people"
Hippies

"Those people"
Immigrants


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chillspike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. point taken
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Sounds fine... now when are you going to do all of this?
And, as I asked before.. how do people on $674 a month, or $0 a month, get into this?

Morgages?? :rofl: We can't even get into RENTALS.

I agree we should all be able to own our own homes, for the safety that provides.

Now, ..... HOW?

ANd, as I said in the OP, what are you doing NOW about the lives that are threatened because they are less trouble DEAD?
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chillspike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Some will need governmental help to lay the foundation...
....some will be able to save up enough themselves. for others, charity will get them there.

there's no easy answer because it requires a massive effort and commitment of funds for the harder cases.

but you sell it to the government as a way of ultimately relieving it of some of its burdens and saving tax payer money.

i've have even formulated a proposal and sent it to the president but i can't make him implement it.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Then how about getting groups to support your proposal, rather than
sending it to someone who doesn't even see it?
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chillspike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. do you want to support my proposal?
i would love it if you did.

for the last 15-20 years i can't even get musicians to collaborate on my lyrics.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I'm one of those people being cut off. I have been trying to get DUers to get active
to eliminate homelessness.

So, you need to start pushing YOUR programs.

I'm doing all I can while living in my car.

THAT is why I am challenging DUers to take homeless and disabled people as seriously as they take immigrants, gays, blacks, etc.

IT IS TIME.
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chillspike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. a few years ago...
Edited on Sun May-02-10 09:01 PM by chillspike
i drew up a sketch on Google SketchUP for a homeless shelter on wheels as a temporary solution for the problem of cold weather the homeless face during winters in the city...

It was going to be heated and it had a padlock so its occupant could be safe inside at night...and it was to have a solar panel, an ipod and even a wifi and a mini stove....It could be hitched to a bicycle for transport too..You can see it here (not the best sketch):

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=3a79...

i was going to build and stock them myself with my own money if i was ever able to get myself out from where i am to some space where i can work on them. then i was going to go to the nearest city and hand them out.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. How else can I say this... I DO NOT NEED A SHELTER.
I am a person.

I am a good person.

I need a home.

Did you get any of what I said earlier? I am particularly talking about DISABLED PEOPLE.

BICYCLES?

DISABLED?

WE NEED LIVABLE INCOMES.

WE NEED HOMES.

It. Really. Is. Quite. Simple.
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #31
81. Guaranteed minimum income for all.
Edited on Tue May-04-10 06:27 AM by tango-tee
Affordable housing. Permanent housing, not homeless shelters where illnesses can proliferate. How can anyone there ever feel safe and "at home"?

Why can this not be done if billions upon billions are available for unnecessary wars and the development over ever more sophisticated weapons? We need to get our priorities straight.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #27
35. "to eliminate homelessness"
Gonna have to eliminate the human race to fix that one.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #35
42. No, just eliminate the homeless
:think:
Problem solved!

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #42
52. Thank you. Your "humor" is very comforting.
Now, just put your effort where you mouth is and get us the pills so we can do as you suggest and remove ourselves from your glorified presence.

I'm sure when your mother becomes one of us, she will thank you.
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NM_hemilover Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #52
61. Can't decide which is more interesting,


his off hand, limp joke regarding the elimination of the homeless, or your over-reactionary offer to commit suicide followed up by a cheap shot as his mother.

Was just curious what city you are in. Also, you speak very clearly, can organize your thoughts for an open debate, have internet access and transportation, what were you doing before becoming homeless ?

If my questions are too personal then no problem, I'm just curious.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Your compassion is overwhelming.
I'm glad my pain could give you such a good laugh. At least I was good for something.

Once you have disected me, then what?
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NM_hemilover Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Like I said,

I was only curious, and tried to specifically state that because of the sensitity of your topic. Both his lame joke, and your over-reactionary response were interesting, not "a good laugh", read it again. Without any back story or understanding FROM you, then it's just internet conjecture. I was curious what you did before your situation became what it is, and how you came to be in the situation you are in, it sometimes helps to gain the confidence of the people you are demanding action from, but I'm not sure "action" is really what you are looking for.

Homelessness is booming here in Albuquerque, even though our job market crash, and housing value drops have been less severe than other places, (the reason I asked where you are). We live near UNM, and I give a few bucks to people who come up to me asking for help, it doesn't change thier lives but maybe helps that day.


Good luck, take care.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. "Over-reactionary".... dear one, trade places with me for five fucking minutes,
then take a look at the ugliness of what you are saying.

When its YOUR mother, maybe then you will get a clue.

When people take pleasure in saying hurtful things to those who are the most vulnerable and hurting the most, they do me a big favor. OTHER people see the things that are said, and it gives them a fuller understanding of just what it is we live with.

So, thank you for being that bad example. You have educated a lot of people with your judgmental words.
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NM_hemilover Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. "dear one" now THAT'S funny !


Never said anything about your situation is funny,...... but your condescending "dear one" is hysterical, need lots of time and open dialog to explain why.

You made it perfectly clear that you are an internet tough guy, and rather than engage in a conversation about your situation so I might understand you a little, I need to just do as you command and get a clue. I don't want to trade places with you for "any fucking" minutes but thanks, and I still don't think what I asked was ugly.

Also,

I'm not offended, and you didn't "strike a nerve" with your constant "when it's YOUR mother" comments, but my mom passed in 2000. No need to apologize, I know she died but you could not have known that, it does tell me that you want the largest personal infliction of guilt possible, swing and a miss. Just one example of the misunderstandings we have exchanged, those kind of assumptions are what made me curious about you.

Again, good luck and take care, translated : "I hope things improve for you and be safe".

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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #67
82. Dear friend,
bobbolink has been homeless for years.

I truly believe that when Bobbie raises her voice in anger, it comes from a sense of deep desperation and is not meant to attack you as an individual. What she needs to see is that we - as progessives - acknowledge the horrible extent and ramifications of homelessness and poverty. What are we willing to do attack this monstrous problem? It is a problem which encompasses generations, from infants born to poor mothers, to those unemployed in middle age, to disabled seniors who face the end of their days in poverty. And it is a cycle which will keep repeating itself.

There is so much wealth consolidated in the hands of so few. What do we make of this? How do we proceed?

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NM_hemilover Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. No worries,

No doubt there are plenty of other posters who know boblink, understand her situation and are the ones she was addressing, it's pretty clear what bobo says is scripture, anything else is considered offensive and making fun of the homeless. I'm not homeless, and although I guess I understand some theoretical reasons people get into the situations they do, I don't have any "real" understanding because I've never been homeless, and certainly never had the chance to have a conversation WITH a homeless person, ABOUT being homeless.

The homeless people that we come in contact with in the area we live, (Albuquerque) usually are very polite, obviously uncomfortable asking for help but also are obviously at a point where they have no choice but to ask strangers for help.....we have never said no to someone who needed some help, I've rented hotel rooms numerous times, bought lunches, spare cash etc. I know it doesn't change anyone's life but might help a little that day. However the guy who gets in my face and tries to teach me why I "owe" them something gets told good luck. I don't know how being homeless for years has affected boblink,...... I can only imagine, and I can appriciate she doesn't think it's any of my business.

Boblink thinks, that by me asking about her situation that I am somehow trying to belittle her and her situation. That's not the case, but I'm just a faceless nobody typing on a discussion board, exactly the same as her so who REALLY knows. Nobody typing on this board is any different than anybody else, it's truly an honor system level playing field. Where ever she is, how ever she got there, I wish her good luck.

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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
16. K&R
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Ronald Raygun had the answer to your question...
he cut disability off for many of the disabled people drawing it and was startled when they started dying off in droves waiting for a revaluation of their cases.

Perhaps someone here will have the numbers.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. the point is, WHAT are DUers going to do now?
Edited on Sun May-02-10 08:41 PM by bobbolink
Blaming Reagan means that people still die, while Reagan's worshipers laugh.

Is that acceptable to you?
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
41. The other point is...
Edited on Mon May-03-10 09:05 AM by dajoki
people need to stop being made to jump through hoops just to get a hearing in front of a judge. Denial-appeal, denial-appeal, denial-appeal, OK maybe now you can see a judge. Obama also needs to take this seriously, many more judges need to be appointed to whittle down the huge backlog.
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caseycoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
24. Kick.....n/t
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. .
:hug:
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
28. The hierarchy of outrage, it seems, is directly proportional to who holds the election cards
If we want to live by our philosophy of being a Democrat, or strive to follow religious doctrine, we have to speak for those falling under poverty income or are paychecks/programs away from loosing their home.

Advocates can only help impoverished from becoming totally invisible.

I've emphasized the message, "when everybody does better, EVERYBODY does better, but it's not working, given the distractions of every day.

This is therefore a question for which I cannot a proper answer, certainly not anyone who needs an answer today.



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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
29. How many will die?
Human needs have to be provided for all, livable shelter being top on the list...to let folks die because of housing shortages is the shame of all of us...

K&R :hug:
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
33. A place where left and right meet.
Some on the Right: This person should die, they're costing me money.
Some on the Left: What is happening is awful! I feel sorry for him / her, but wouldn't it be better for EVERYONE if they just, you know, went to sleep and never woke up?

That's basically the difference. They arrive at the same conclusion, but with different paths. The person on the right is more focused on what it means to them, personally. The person on the left is concerned about "the common good" for everyone else but the individual. After all, if an individual wants to go against what is for "the common good" then they are "selfish" and "greedy."
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caseycoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. How depressing!
How can people truly on the left even think that way? I can't even begin to understand that mindset.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. It's individualism vs collectivism.
When it comes to the Right they're most often associated with selfishness. It's about enhancing themselves at the expense of others. That's how the libertarian individualists on the Right think. "I've got mine, now fuck you." Is their mantra. Then there are the collectivist authoritarian on the Right, and while their focus is still more upon personal benefit it is extended to the state. Therefore, an individualist libertarian on the Right would be against taxes because it takes away from what they earned, but a collectivist authoritarian on the Right would have no problem with taking taxes - particularly from those they believe don't deserve money - in order to grow the state for whatever purpose. More often than not, the money is invested in the military.

There are similarities on the Left. You have the collectivists authoritarian who believes that society as a whole should prosper. In a world with limited resources tough decisions must be made. If there are suddenly a thousand people who need brain surgery and only five people capable of performing the procedure, someone has to make the choice about who gets the procedure, and who doesn't. That's effectively a life or death decision. On the authoritarian Left you might have people ranked according to their value to society. If the Society / Culture values science and art, then the scientists and the artists will be first. There might be other schemes, but ultimately it's a form of rationing - rationing is unavoidable in a system with limited resources. The opposite side of that coin are the libertarian individualists on the Left. They are concerned with society as a whole, but not at the expense of the individual. Their focus is to try and create a system in which everyone starts at a fair and equal place, and from beyond that point luck, nature, and personal ability determines your fate. When it comes to sharing scarce resources, it would operate much like it does today in the United States: first come, first serve, with the potential to jump ahead on the list determined by medical need.

Most strains of communism - especially traditional communism - will take you down the path of the authoritarian Leftist. Norway might be a good example of a nation that has libertarian Leftist leanings, as are a number of other Scandinavian countries, and New Zealand. No countries in the Western World are all out authoritarian in nature, but both Political Parties, taken as a whole, are moderate authoritarian rightists. Obviously, the Republican's are more extreme on both counts.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. That is not the Left at all.
Edited on Mon May-03-10 06:44 AM by blindpig
Practically speaking, there is no left. The so-called leftists which you describe are making a fashion statement at best. A real leftist is not satisfied until every person has access to what should be a human right in a society as rich and productive as ours, food, shelter, clothing, health care, jobs, pensions, amenities.

k&r
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. Impossible in a world of scarce resources.
There will always be those who have more than others. There will always be the have and have nots. It just comes down to how you want to distribute the resources that are available. That leads you to collectivism vs individualism. Here is my post from above on that point:

When it comes to the Right they're most often associated with selfishness. It's about enhancing themselves at the expense of others. That's how the libertarian individualists on the Right think. "I've got mine, now fuck you." Is their mantra. Then there are the collectivist authoritarian on the Right, and while their focus is still more upon personal benefit it is extended to the state. Therefore, an individualist libertarian on the Right would be against taxes because it takes away from what they earned, but a collectivist authoritarian on the Right would have no problem with taking taxes - particularly from those they believe don't deserve money - in order to grow the state for whatever purpose. More often than not, the money is invested in the military.

There are similarities on the Left. You have the collectivists authoritarian who believes that society as a whole should prosper. In a world with limited resources tough decisions must be made. If there are suddenly a thousand people who need brain surgery and only five people capable of performing the procedure, someone has to make the choice about who gets the procedure, and who doesn't. That's effectively a life or death decision. On the authoritarian Left you might have people ranked according to their value to society. If the Society / Culture values science and art, then the scientists and the artists will be first. There might be other schemes, but ultimately it's a form of rationing - rationing is unavoidable in a system with limited resources. The opposite side of that coin are the libertarian individualists on the Left. They are concerned with society as a whole, but not at the expense of the individual. Their focus is to try and create a system in which everyone starts at a fair and equal place, and from beyond that point luck, nature, and personal ability determines your fate. When it comes to sharing scarce resources, it would operate much like it does today in the United States: first come, first serve, with the potential to jump ahead on the list determined by medical need.

Most strains of communism - especially traditional communism - will take you down the path of the authoritarian Leftist. Norway might be a good example of a nation that has libertarian Leftist leanings, as are a number of other Scandinavian countries, and New Zealand. No countries in the Western World are all out authoritarian in nature, but both Political Parties, taken as a whole, are moderate authoritarian rightists. Obviously, the Republican's are more extreme on both counts.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. Faulty premise

There is not a scarcity of resources, how those resources are distributed is another story.

That an excess of capital has brought is to this current debacle is proof enough that resources are available.

Why will there always be haves and have-nots? That is a capitalist fairy tale told to justify their existence.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. So resources are infinite?
You are saying the following:

1. There will always be enough doctors to see every individual who desires to see one, and every individual will receive platinum quality care.
2. There is enough land on planet Earth for every human who desires a home to have a home, and still enough land for animals, plants, and other nature to co-exist.
3. There is enough tangible wealth (in the form of physical resources - not paper money) for everyone to have a fair share.
4. There are enough organs, such as hearts, to go around for those who need a transplant.

Etc. Etc.

If you believe those things, my friend, I'm not the one who believes a fairy tale.

I believe the following:

1. There is a shortage of doctors, but this can be overcome through incentive programs. However, even if the shortage is overcome, not everyone will receive equal care. There will always be great doctors and shitty doctors, with most doctors falling somewhere between the two. Who gets what depends on access, which is determined by location, luck, connections, wealth, need, among other lesser factors.

2. There is not enough land on planet Earth for everyone to have the home of their dreams, and live out the idyllic vision. Some people are going to have to live in crowded cities. Some people will have to rent while others buy. The focus should be making cities more attractive places to live (and of course combating sprawl), so that there is a focus on human urbanization, which would in turn free up rural areas for local wildlife.

3. There is not enough tangible wealth in the form of physical resources, and not everyone will have a fair share. This is hugely determined by luck: The average American is almost certain to have vastly more tangible wealth than someone in Africa, or any other poor and developing country. However, as we also know, luck is only part of it - current standing in the world - be it social, political, or financial, also determines how much you get. Is it fair? No, but I would challenge anyone to design a system that was fair. After all, I know someone who needs a car to get to work. Hey, you have two cars - I'm going to take one of yours and give it to them, without compensation, because it helps someone in need and its fair. What is "fair" is entirely subjective.

4. Like the above, there aren't enough organs to go around. The important thing to do is to design a just system that ensures everyone an equal shot at getting what they need. However, even in such a system people - good, innocent, people - will die waiting. There is no "fair" way to distribute an organ.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Again, poor assumptions.

Doctors, see Cuba

Land: land pattern uses are currently predicated upon the capitalist model, which gets you suburbs and all the rest of the wastefulness of consumerist society. The 'burbs gotta go. Obviously biodiversity must be preserved and imho this will require re-integration of humans into the landscape. Perhaps not easy but the capitalist alternative guarantees doom.

What is 'a fair share'? It means everyone gets the same, so that may mean that we won't have near as much 'stuff', but what of that? Most people in the 'advanced economies' admits that we got too much as is. Who needs twenty brands of toothpaste? Why should 'the average African' have less?

Transplant organs, man you are pushing it....though I will speculate that in a society without junk food and with universal health care that such contingencies will be much less common.

"The poor will always be with us' is a ruling class meme.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. So, in other words, you want to eliminate choice for "the common good."
So therefore, you're an authoritarian leftist, which would explain why you've taken objection to my posting. Organ transplants aren't "pushing it" - they're a serious problem. Go speak to someone on a waiting list, and then tell me there's plenty of stuff for everyone.

Twenty brands of toothpaste exist because people want twenty brands of toothpaste. Different brands satisfy different needs. Some help whiten teeth, some help strengthen weaker teeth, some help fight bad breath, some have a better flavor than others... some have special medication in them which means you can only get them with a prescription from the dentist.

Your solution to the problem is effectively to strip away choice, to take things away - by force, if necessary - for "the common good." After all, why should someone in a developing nation have less, right? Therefore, if you have more, you should be forced to give it away. It doesn't matter if you work hard, and play by the rules, "the common good" trumps individual wants and desires.

Naturally, it ignores what motivates a human being - the desire to improve ones life, to do well, the desire to seek a purpose. These things are fine, of course, so long as you don't improve your life too much. You don't want to do better than others, because in so doing, you'd be taking resources away from someone else, and that isn't fair. You're free to seek a purpose, so long as that purpose aligns with what someone else thinks is for "the common good."

Sorry, I'm in no way shape or form authoritarian. I have a strong desire to see the lives of all people improve, but not at the expense of effectively enslaving others to my own personal desires. I don't presuppose to know what is for "the common good" of all humanity, but I figure each individual can figure out what's best for themselves so long as they're given an equal opportunity. I'm all about removing obstacles for everyone, not putting up new ones.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Your 'choice' is delusional.

Your 'choices' are those which the capitalists provide for you, and they only do that if they can make a profit.

Authoritarian? What could be more authoritarian than what we have now, where we are virtually forced by economic contingencies in our lives to be parties to imperialism and ecocide?

Authoritarian for demanding that everyone gets a fair shake and we not trash the planet for the benefit of the few? You bet. But it's not like I'll be calling the shots, that is the job of a community of consensus.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #44
78. I think we're talking about "the United States" not "the world"
And the United Stats does have enough resources that we could feed, house, and provide medical care to every single person in the country if we chose to do it. The entire world is a very different story.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. the profound silence from the "left" IS the statement.
If "the left" truly cared, there would be a huge outcry.

Then, you can look at statements like this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Just goes to show bobbie..

there ain't no 'there' there.

That sort of crap that you linked to is the mindset promoted by the ruling class to justify their existence and fools like that just carry water for them while people suffer.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. So where are the people who are actually DOING anything about the suffering?
The Latinos are now popular so they are getting massive support.

On and on with various groups.

So, I repeat... where is the caring and action for the people who I am talking about in this thread?

??????????????

Yup, we are USED by idealogical groups to prove how pathetic the system is, but there is NO action.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. "How many deaths will it take til they know that too many people have died?"
All the analysis in the world doesn't save even ONE life.
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #50
83. Not all of us, Bobbie.
Not by a long shot.

Sorry for the long silence. Will you accept my apologies?

In solidarity,

t-t



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caseycoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #38
51. Thanks blindpig.
That is what I believe. Leftists may be few & far betwen these days, but we are still here.
It hurts to think that "practically speaking there is no left", however, I will have to concede the possibility that you are correct.
:cry:
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
75. Yes but not so much human rights as human NEEDS
Freedom of speech, assembly, are human rights. Human NEEDS are mandatory for survival, most of the things you list, shelter, clothing, food, health care, are in this category of NEED...Everyone's needs must be met, we must demand them...NO deaths due to a lack of a need should be tolerated, a cry for help for all in need is being made here...how will we answer?? Why is this allowed to be? We have to stop deaths due to needs not being met...
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #75
79. +1000. K&R n/t
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #33
47. You know, that is fine, and I will buy that. I am willing to sacrifice my life for the common good.
But, you see, that is NOT allowed. Yes, we are supposed to suffer. I guess our suffering is entertainment for the masses.

BUT, when we get the message that we are superfluous and are supposed to get out of the way, and take that message and try to kill ourselves, then we are locked up and cost the society THOUSANDS of dollars each, to "teach us a lesson".

Now, you tell me what the hell kind of logic THAT is. And with the suicide rate among homeless people, you know that these THOUSANDS are adding up Bigtime.

So, you want us out of the way for the common good. Fine, as another DUer said, we are nothing but useless eaters to all of you.

So, provide the means for a painless exit, and we will be gone.

Gladly.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. You can put out those harsh words, but you can't take responsibility for the outcome?
:wtf:
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #47
59. Not sure what you're talking about!
Edited on Mon May-03-10 01:05 PM by Meldread
I wasn't supporting the position of the authoritarian left. (Which is all about "the common good".) I'm not an authoritarian leftist. Read my response in Post #43.

Your original post was basically asking, how the left can act this way / do nothing. I was attempting to explain it in the post that you responded to, and then further explained it in Post #43.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
34. Kick.
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caseycoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
37. How can we, as American citizens..
allow our government to kill people. Cutting off someone's SSI arbitrarily is as good as a death sentence. So is making severely disabled people wait a few years to award them the funds to survive. How long can one survive on ZERO dollars per month? How many times can we just say "Oh what a shame." and then put it out of our minds? When will we progress to the point where we actually give a damn about each & every suffering individual? I don't have the answers. I wish I did.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
39. "Are there lives that are worth more than other lives?"
How can we help but feel this statement is true, no matter what you read or watch on TV, we are excluded from the conversation. It takes three years, if you're lucky, to get approved for disability and the backlog of cases is just getting worse. I personally know a family where the husband died while waiting to be approved, and he finally was, after his death. Enough said.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. .
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #39
49. There is never "enough said" until heartless "progressives" finally take action
and get this whole mess changed.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #49
85. You are correct...
speaking about the entire subject, but the man in that post was my brother-in-law and I wanted to stop myself before I said something I might regret. I could go on about it but I would rather not. I hope you understand.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #39
68. And how long to be approved for housing?
2 units for every three people...
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
45. K&R, bob.
Mass action is coming, can't be stopped. The question is how many will die before it starts...I don't know, this country is killing so many people all the time that the numbers are gruesomely absurd. Property is theft...
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
46. K & R nt
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
53. K&R
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
63. Wake up America...
it could happen to you...http://homelessness.change.org/
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
65. It does offer a glimmer of hope that
even homeless people can sometimes have access to important films like Michael Moore's "Capitalism, A Love Story". Whoever, or whatever organization hosted the viewing for you, deserves thanks.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. wow....that is an interesting backslap.....
I AM a member of society, you know.

Maybe that is what you would like to change?

:wtf:
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. +1 nt
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #69
77. In what way was that a "backslap"?
Edited on Mon May-03-10 11:19 PM by Quantess
I think it's wonderful that you were able to view the film. I'm sure it isn't always easy to watch what you want to when you're living in your car. I think it's very nice that someone or some organization made it possible for you to see it. Edit to add: Maybe we should all thank them.
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NM_hemilover Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #69
86. why do you think that everybody who responds to your
post, wants to remove you from society ?

Was it the phrase "even the homeless" ? Because I really don't think the poster was trying to insult you, or try to suggest that homeless people should be removed from society.

I read a portion of the report you linked to in another thread, and it's a pretty good read, hope to have time to finish it later. I agree you are certainly a member of society, but so is everybody else, and I doubt everybody on DU wants to "do away with the homeless".

The report you linked to, made clear a lot of the points you are expressing, without leaving people with the "what the fuck did I do" expression on thier face.

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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
70. Only if they are contemplating voting Republican!
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
76. K&R
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Mekki Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
80. Questions like these!
Questions like these!
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happy_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-10 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
87. Father of dead man also died homeless
It's been nearly 13 years since a homeless man named Vernon Konukpeok was found dead near Ship Creek.

On Thursday, the body of his son, Vernon Konukpeok Jr., was discovered just after noon in a crude homeless camp nestled amid fallen brush just off one of South Anchorage's busiest intersections, according to city police.

Police say Konukpeok Jr., 39, had been sleeping at the camp, which is encircled by a Seward Highway on-ramp, with his cousin and a woman with whom he'd been known to panhandle. When the cousin woke up Thursday morning, he found Konukpeok dead.

There did not appear to be signs of foul play at the scene of the death just across from a Holiday gas station, police spokesman Lt. Dave Parker said. The cause of death was under investigation.

Konukpeok's father was 44 years old when he was found dead in the Ship Creek area June 2, 1997, according to police. Details of his death were not immediately available Thursday, though his name was among those who at the time were added to Bean's Cafe's list of the "homeless or hungry" who died in Anchorage, according to a news report....

Six bodies have turned up in Anchorage parks or camps this spring. None of the deaths appear related or involved foul play, according to police. Twenty people have been found dead in Anchorage streets and parks since last May, most of them homeless or familiar with street life.


------------------------


Now, if stories like this found the same sort of attention as say...'OMG Sarah Palin wrote on her hand'...then maybe something will be done about it.

One way to help, look at what is going on in your community and make the local media aware of it. Ask them to cover the story of your local homeless, with pictures. So many people were affected by images of the oil spill(isn't it obvious why we don't see pictures of the war(s) anymore?)... we need more pictures of homeless camps, tent cities, real life stories of every day people, two income working families who still can't afford housing, people forced into bankruptcy due to medical bills, disabled people unable to get low income housing, single mothers kicked out on the street because their job was outsourced etc.

We have to teach the media how to do their jobs. If you see some stupid ass story about Sarah Palin, or Britney, or American Idol, or dancing with the stars for GOD's sake- don't click on it. Do not encourage them. Same goes for stupid ass threads on DU. Search for stories about poverty and the homeless and post them. Support others who do the same. We can at least do our part to raise the level of dialogue and intelligence on this board.
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