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Imagine we're all aboard a ship, and its sinking. What do we do?

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:03 PM
Original message
Imagine we're all aboard a ship, and its sinking. What do we do?
So imagine that we're all aboard a very big ocean liner, the biggest in the world perhaps. And that ship is taking on water. It's structurally unsound, and its sinking.

Now imagine that the officers and captains of this boat are divided into two factions. One faction has some very distinct ideas about how life on board our ocean liner should function. This faction wants to take certain passengers - based on the color of their skin or their sexuality - and lock them in their cabins, deny them the same freedoms that other passengers enjoy. This faction also wants to remove some of the chairs from the deck of the ship, and designate that the remaining chairs are exclusively reserved for "first class" passengers - those with the most money and/or influence. This faction wants to charge for those seats and restrict who can use them. These are a just a few things this faction of officers and captains wants for the ship.

On the other hand, the other faction opposes these ideas. This second faction believes that all passengers should be able to move freely around the ship without discrimination, and they also desire to add more seats to the deck open to a greater number of passengers, and so on. Clearly there are distinct differences between these two factions.

Under normal circumstances, if our ship wasn't sinking, I'd be very much aligned with the second faction that opposed oppressive measures. But we have a special circumstance that changes things a little bit. Our ship is sinking.

What's worse none of the officers or captains from either faction will acknowledge that our ship actually is sinking. Despite the gaping hole in the side of our hull, they continue to declare that "the fundamentals of our ship integrity are strong" and "we are the greatest ship in the history of the world!" Faction #1 tells us that our ship is in good shape, but we should remove the restrictions on engine output so that we can freely get where we're going faster. Faction #2 opposes this, and tells us that we need tougher restrictions on engine output and better procedures for navigational decisions so that we can "continue" to be safe.

Neither faction of debating officers and captains acknowledge that our ship is sinking. Meanwhile, members of these two factions take terms steering the helm of the ship. And no matter how is steering, the course is always the same - right through a field of dangerous icebergs, any one of which could further damage our ship beyond hope.

So here I am, as a passenger on this ship. Our ship is in the process of sinking. Under normal circumstances, I'd only be focused on supporting Faction #2's plans for the ship, because they seem more fair and equitable than Faction #1's. But the ship is sinking! Given the fact that the ship is sinking, its absurd that neither faction of officers or captains will even admit to the problem, let alone start taking critical emergency steps to address the crisis.

It seems then I'm left with few good options. If neither faction of officers and captains will address our sinking ship, and just pretend like we are not in a crisis where our very ship itself is at risk, then it seems like I must get in their face, and try to shake them out of this absurd delusion and demand that the address the crisis.

But that seems not to be working, and all the while we are taking on more water. If I was in this situation, as a passenger, what would I do? First of all, I certainly wouldn't be angry at anyone who is critical of both factions of officers, since both factions are choosing to ignore the crisis for their own purposes. Secondly, if the two factions are unwilling to help address the crisis, I'd have to do my best try and find passengers who will.

So I'd want to start showing passengers the hole in the hull and the fact that we are taking on water, and convince them that we must do something about it. No action is too extreme if it means saving our ship from sinking. I'd want to get enough people organized to confront these officers and demand that they turn the ship around. I'd want to tell crew members and engineers ordered by these factions to focus on everything else but our sinking ship that we were taking over and were going to star fixing our ship whether they liked it or not.

If officers refused to listen to our demands, then its time to replace those officers and captains - there are more passengers than there are officers. All other issues would be less important than the immediate saving of our sinking ship. If officers and captains continued to refuse to even admit that we are sinking, then it would be time for the passengers to relieve the officers and captains of duty.

We in a fight to save our very ship itself. That's what I believe. I get that some disagree. However that disagreement seems to fly in the face of a huge amount of facts already meticulously documented. And think about it for a second, if you really believed as I do - how would you possibly expect me to take any different position that I am taking?

I would like Democrats to be part of the solution. But I want a solution more than I want to just keep electing the same establishment Democrats at any cost. It really doesn't matter who wins as long as our ship is still sinking and no one is addressing it. We have to demand that Democrats stop playing footsie with wall street and stop caring more about the political calculus how how they can avoid doing anything "controversial" in order to win elections and start saving the fucking country from its demise. And if they are consistently unwilling to do that, the only choice we're left with - that I can see, is to stop supporting those who refuse to do so and support those who will. If there is no one who will, then WE need to step up to the plate.

If you want to challenge the logic of this, be my guest. But I think what you will find is that it all hinges on accepting the premise that we are losing America. If you accept that premise, then most of the rest of this logically follows. If you don't accept that premise then it won't.

But if you don't accept that premise, I respond that this is what I have on my side of the argument:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8187415
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. You have nothing left but personal attacks.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. there is no logic in your post
it's a rambling, hackneyed analogy that fails on multiple levels. It's silly to compare a country to a sinking ocean liner.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Further personal attacks. It's all you have.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. "Your argument is stupid" is not a counter-argument.
Edited on Sat Apr-24-10 10:23 PM by Political Heretic
If you like to make an actual rebuttal, I'm all ears.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I reject the analogy.
again, there's no logic to argue against. You're stating that the U.S. is in such dire straits that the imminent implosion of the county is nigh. That's a prognostication, not logic
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. It's called a premise. And its backed by this:
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. tap that thread
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
37. Your criticism lacks substance.
There's not a shred of reason to it.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
38. I have no idea who you are speaking to and I like that
I only have seven people ignored. Clearly, I have done well.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. Then what would you compare it too?
A walk in the park?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. why is it necessary to compare it to anything?
It is what it is: a large, complex society with a lot of problems and possibilities.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Perhaps so people with small minds can
understand the enormity of the situation.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
42. America is a sinking ship is a metaphor.
The sinking ship is the vehicle (no pun intended) and the country is the tenor.

Riddle: What has sixteen balls and sings?

Answer: A quartet.
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KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. You look for a teabagger to toss overboard
to keep the sharks busy while you swim for shore.

No, seriously, good post. I just couldn't resist.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. And if the hole in the hull is only in your imagination?...nt
Sid
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Then its "imagination" that includes this:
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. tap that thread
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. Agreed. This ship, in reality, is soaring. Like the Hindenburg
props to Colbert :)
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. The Democrats are tied to lifeboats of corporate money, so they survive while the rest of us drown.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. I imagine I'd swim. (n/t)
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leeloo Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. You lost me after the 3rd paragraph...In answer to the first part i
would swim for it....
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Joe the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. If a ship is sinking the first you want to do is....
get off the damn ship! If no one is doing anything to better the situation then its up to you to get off the ship and save yourself before it goes under. Good analogy but rather than stick around and try to convince people that something is wrong a better solution would be to just bail into a life boat and let those who refuse to face reality just sink along with the ship, they're utterly helpless.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. so when are you bailing?
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. Sorry, cali, not all of us are living off mommy and daddy's fortune
Edited on Sat Apr-24-10 10:49 PM by superduperfarleft
and can afford to escape whenever we want.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #29
47. ouch.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Agreed
As an expat, thats my line of thought
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. IMO the root cause is not having public financing. As long as we have
endless streams of money flowing into the election process and masses of people swayed by the propaganda by any party I don't think much of this will be solved. The elected, any party, will be beholding to the highly monied interests.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I don't disagree - so what do we do about that ?
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. I've been questioning that myself for sometime now. In USA, Inc. money
talks, buys power, wins elections, generally the rest just talks. It's asking those that could change it to cut off their lifeline of support. It is so entrenched and the SC was so willing to give corporate personhood for corporate financing of candidates. I can just imagine what that will bring. One method is to provide more and more focus on the money trail focusing on the source and the resultant effect. Combined with that would be effective investigative media. Then the hard part is getting the "right" people to watch/follow it. People on DU and similar would, but the hard RW would ignore it as some socialist crap I'm sure. All this said. I do feel the key to success is "breaking" the election-hold high monied interests have in determining/winning antiquated elections.
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
17. Well as a former priest I can assure all of you, including Shelly Winters, that we WILL make it "up"
to the engine room.
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skamaria Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. Sinking ship
Rearrange the deck chairs.............
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
21. Make fun of chicken policies. Pretend no one is noticing
And the band played on
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
24. If a ship has a gaping hole in the hull, turning it around won't matter.
It's going to sink.

I see your analogy though, and I shouldn't view it so literally.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. "I had a popular thread and I'm gonna tap that bad boy for all it's worth"
:hi:
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. ROFL...
yeah, I noticed that too.

Sid
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
39. More personal insults without substance. A familiar pattern.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. If he isn't smiling when he says this then he's wasting bandwidth.
Although this particular ad hominem could be a joke, it's hard to tell without any emoticons.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #25
40. Do you have anything of substance?

:clearly rhetorical:
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
30. K&R
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
33. kick for reading tomorrow --
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
36. K & R nt
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
41. I'm personally burning the furniture.
YMMV
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
44. Personal attacks and imperious derision,
That's all they've ever had.

The facts don't bear out their fantasy and it gets scary for them. I can't decide if it's a case of "boiling frog syndrome" or "person falling off of a skyscraper", but they both end the same, sad, shocked "surprise".

All sheep share a common destiny.


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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
45. We let the captain be in charge, in my experience.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Really. The ship is sinking, none of the officers or captain is acknowledging it is sinking
And you're response is "we just let the captain be in charge."

That means we drown. Is that how much you want to follow captain? Follow the captain even if the captain refuses to acknowledge our sinking ship? Just sit by and say, "oh well the captain is in charge so I guess we're all going to die."

:blink:

Verrrrry eye-opening, thanks.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. OK. let's pretend your metaphor makes sense
let's say there is a big honking gash in the ship and that it's presumably in the middle of the deep sea. What is the captain supposed to do? Clearly he can't repair it out there. So it's either attempt to get help- and just who does he get help from- or it's head to dock. And that illustrates just why this metaphor is so silly.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. That assumes the captain acknowledges that the ship is sinking.
This one doesn't.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #50
57. How do you know? Maybe the captain is simply trying to avoid panic
while figuring out what to do.

As I've said, it's a poor metaphor.
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #46
55. Perhaps the captain is right and there are just alarmists around screaming
"We are all going to die!" Sorry, I am going to trust the captain.

Having been on ships that were in tenuous situations on many occasions, I can guarantee you that the basic rules of stay with the ship and follow the captain are there for good reason. To do otherwise is mutiny, and you had better be pretty damn sure that your captain is unfit to lead and that you are more capable of leading before taking that position.

Your position that the captain refuses to acknowledge the seriousness of the situation is your perspective and nothing more. If you truly believe that, then you may indeed need to find other passage. I personally would not board a ship if I thought the captain were insane or incompetent. Or, once on a ship with such a captain, I would seek to replace him at my first opportunity. I feel quite secure at this time and see no need to do that.

And if by "verrrry eye-opening" you mean that you think you have me figured out and can spin this into something more than what I have actually said, go for it. Good luck on your new ship.
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Pharlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
49. Assuming the hole were
small enough for everyone to stand around discussing the issue instead of immediately implementing emergency procedures:

- If the ship were still in dock, it could be evacuated in an orderly fashion without loss of life.

- If the ship was out to sea with no outside help immediately available and there was enough time for everyone to stand around discussing the issue without immediately implementing emergency procedures:

The captain would, rightfully, place a particularly unruly passenger under 'arrest' or 'restricted movement' for attempting to incite a riot onboard his ship. Remember, a ship is NOT a democracy nor a republic. It is an authoritarian dictatorship and The Captain is 'GOD' on board that vessel while it is at sea.

And, that, is why your analogy is a false one.

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. This assumes, again that the captain acknowledges there is an emergency.
Which he does not - in fact no officers or captain does.

So the choice is, follow the captain in a "ruly" fashion and die?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #51
58. so now you're a mind reader? how interesting.
and it's certainly not as if you have any solutions. that couldn't be clearer.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
52. And what if the ship is NOT sinking, but some goofy passenger is running around
..the decks screaming that it really *IS* sinking?


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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. +1...
That's a much better analogy of the situation, and this thread.

Sid
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
53. Thanks for this post Political Heretic.
Just ignore some of the ignorant comments! You are doing a fine job of trying to get people to think. I like that much better than the people who just want others to shut up. You know, the ones who are as nasty and juvenile as can be.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
56. I'll give you part of your analogy.
Just as an unskilled mob of passengers wouldn't know the first thing about repairing or piloting a ship, neither would your revolutionaries.
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
59. I'd be busy building myself a raft of some sort and getting it stocked
while everyone else can bitch back and forth on this hypothetical sinking ship :P
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
60. I would direct my faithful manservant / bodygaurd to secure space on a lifeboat using cash to bribe
one of the crewman responsible for ushering women and children to safety. I would then direct my man to go below decks and shoot my romantic rival and retrieve my fiance.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. My heart will go on...
:)
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AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
61. My solution: Make Paste out of the Ship's Leaders to plug the hole...
I would take the captain and all of the ship's leaders and make cement out of them and plug the hole. Since they are responsible for the hole they should fix it or they should be the main ingredient in the repair material. Of course, to do this the people on the ship would first have to stage a mutiny against the idiots who caused the ship to get damaged.

BTW, right wingers are attacking President Obama blaming him for this problem but their leader, GW Bush, let over 12 million illegals storm across our border after 9/11. Bush spent billions on Homeland Security and billions on wars but didn't do anything to stop the invasion at our southern border. While Bush's 'security' forces were compiling no-fly lists of suspected terrorists and strip searching grandma and little kids at airports millions of illegals were flooding across our borders. I always wondered how many in that number of illegals were terrorists who flew to Mexico and just walked across our border.

Why didn't one member of the media question Bush about the stupidity and inconsistency of his supposed 'War on Terrorism'? Never once was he questioned about the absurdity of his wars while letting millions enter our country illegally. Anyone remember Bush saying immediately after 9/11 how he was going to protect Americans from further attacks? And instead of using our military to DEFEND the borders of the United States, the corrupt imbecile Bush sent them half way around the world to be killed defending the financial interests of corrupt republican-friendly corporations, like Halliburton.

And remember, even though passengers are scanned, searched and subjected to all kinds of intrusive examinations the entire bellies of every plane are filled with cargo that is never inspected? There are virtually no safeguards against someone planting a bomb in a plane's cargo hold.











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