Palin's Tea Party ==> 3rd Party Deal Broker?

[speedcat]

Let's face it, these third-party wannabees like the Tea Partiers are just not working, never have. America for good or bad is destined to be a two-party system until Refucks become rational again, because at least in the near term, the smart money in the dem party will remember Nader 2000 and say "never again". In the near term, there will be no dem split that risks getting the likes of Palin in office.

And so any split to form a real deal-broker 3rd party would have to occur in Refuck ranks, and the split would have to be credible to non-Refucks. So we are left with a split to create some kind of rational right-wing, which to many of us is an oxymoron, and rightfully so... but recall back in the day the American politic was not so far twisted to the right - we actually looked a bit closer to other democracies in terms of our political/ideological splits. Our left was closer to theirs, and our right closer to theirs as well. Today we are ultra-right wing. I'm not saying this change is going to happen... just that this is what would be required to get a third party with spoiler power. Once there are is a third party with long-term viability, I think the 4th party would be easier to reach than the third was. But I digress.

The main problem we face is that the American public is so short-sighted and lacking in attention span, that presidential elections are won and lost on stupid youtube-style attack smears by losely connected bad actors. Remember swift-boat? Of course you do, it's a new verb in American English. But most Americans are so tuned in to American Idol or whatever that they have no idea what that term means. This is really dangerous. The only thing that won the last election was Obama's ultra-simple message of hope and "yes we can", and of course that everyone hated W. But we won't have that sort of perfect storm in most elections. And the spawn of Karl Rove are very well trained. What do we got to go up against that?

[LoZoccolo]

1. I think we need to decide what is foundational in rational politics.

Think about what happens every Thanksgiving here, when a bunch of people get in arguments with their families and shout a bunch of stuff at them that won't convince them of anything. Then the right-wing relatives get dismissed as beyond hope. People need to realize that they've got a complex task ahead of them that requires patience and finesse in getting these people to the point where they can even evaluate the propaganda in front of them. We need to think more than one move ahead, and we need to define our next moves, rather than just trying to apply the strongest, most conspicuous attack against our enemies (they're already prepared for that and it's among the easiest to defend against). Persuasion is an art, and the "toughest" get shot down immediately. Work on getting your opponent to think rationally, get them to start seeing for themselves where they are being ridiculous without even pointing it out yourself and there will be little they can do to hold on to the absurd.

[speedcat]

2. but what if they are beyond hope?

I mean these people are truly "wrapped around the axle," they're so embroiled in the simple belief of how "evil" health care reform is that they don't even use data or reason to make decisions about issues. They use emotion first, allow their minds to be made up quickly, and then spend untold amounts of time and energy trying to arrange their facts around this simple and deluded hypothesis. How do you unravel them from that axle? One person at a time? OMFG then we have our work cut out for us.

[laertes]

4. Anti-spin

You unwrap folks by not spinning the issue. A lot of the folks I talk to day by day aren't necessarily against health care reform, they just know when they are being bullshitted. Americans seem to have a good BS detector if nothing else. Reform is going to be expensive and it's going to be a little painful to enact. Yeah, it's deficit neutral (we hope) but it requires a trillion dollars of new fees and taxes. Since the leadership is avoiding that part of it the public gets antsy kinda like "what are they not telling us".

One of the problems on all sides these days is that no one wants to be honest.

[LoZoccolo]

8. I think it would take more time to really establish that than to assume it's not true.

The thing I really try to push on DU is strategy. Books on political strategy are few, but that may be simply because there are actually few strategies. I'm talking about things like Don't Think of an Elephant, The 48 Laws of Power, The Art of War, The Prince, or The 33 Strategies of War. Being direct and reasoning with people is only one of many strategies. A lot of these books are somewhat amoral, but if you do not like that they can be read to understand what strategies other people are employing.

[laertes]

3. Great points

I think the closest we have come to a 3rd party candidate making a difference was Perot in '92 and he split a lot of fiscal conservatives off of the GOP and handed Clinton the election. Proto-Tea Party?

I'm not sure that there's not a Dem split going on. There's a vast difference in philosophy between, say, Allen Boyd of Florida and Nancy Pelosi. Pelosi has managed to whip folks like Boyd into voting the rank-and-file but that doesn't mean the divisions aren't festering.

The swift-boat attacks on Kerry worked because his campaign sucked-ass at responding to it and allowed the accusations to gain traction. Looking back, Kerry was just a bad candidate and when he played his vet hand he opened himself up to all sorts of shit. Oh fuck, aren't we all glad that Edwards was never Vice President???

Agreed on Obama. He played perfectly into the short-sighted, mindless American electorate who worry more about who's gonna get voted off the island. If the GOP manages to field as charismatic a candidate then that fucker will get elected, too. Sad.

Christ, now I'm depressed.

[speedcat]

5. sorry 'bout that!

If the economy gets better, which it should, then Obama should be re-elected... so perhaps we're good for the next 6 years or so? Hope that makes ya feel better! :)

[laertes]

6. And if it doesn't ....

...we're fucked.

[speedcat]

7. I completely agree

time to consider other places to live?

[unapatriciated]

9. Just speak the truth- often and LOUDLY...

"Facts have a liberal bias" Stephen Colbert