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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:09 AM
Original message
Sibel Edmonds, George Tenet's lies, and al Qaeda's nukes
While we're piling on George Tenet, I wanted to pick up on one particular lie from his 60 Minutes interview.

Tenet says "If al Qaeda were to acquire nuclear capability, the thousands of weapons we have would be irrelevant."

According to previous articles by former FBI translator & whistleblower Sibel Edmonds, Tenet's statement appears to be a lie.

In Sibel's Nov 06 blockbuster article "The Highjacking of a Nation" where she outlines her case for all to see, she writes :
"Here is what CIA Director Porter Goss said bluntly before the Senate Intelligence Committee in February 2004,
“It may be only a matter of time before Al Qaeda or other groups attempt to use chemical, biological, radiological, or nuclear weapons. We must focus on that.”
And we know that he knows; has known for the longest time!"


I asked Sibel if that means what I thought she means - that al Qaeda has nuclear weapons - and she confirmed that's what she meant. (Granted, Sibel's definition of al Qaeda sometimes appear to diverge from what is commonly known as 'al Qaeda.' I'll have more on that in a later post).

If ex-CIA Director Porter Goss has known this 'for the longest time' - then ex-CIA Director George Tenet surely must also know the same. So we know Tenet is lying about that. And that's troubling.

Of course, when we're dealing with Sibel Edmonds' case, there's so much that's troubling...

It's troubling to know that al Qaeda has nukes. It's troubling to know that at least two CIA Directors, Tenet and Goss, are lying about what they know. It's troubling that al Qaeda got these nukes with the help of people in the US government. It's troubling that the US government agencies (FBI, CIA) have known about this all along, and done nothing about it. (see here for supporting documentation)

In other Sibel news, we still haven't had an answer from Waxman's office regarding "Let Sibel Edmonds Speak " - our call for new public hearings into her case. It looks like we'll have some new content to work off toward the end of next week - and we'll use that to put pressure on Waxman again. I'll keep you posted. (let me know if you want to get on my mailing list for whenever I have new Sibel-related news)
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks lukery.
Everybody pay attention.
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. thnx mmonk
one day we'll break through...
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. From where did they acquire them? Pakistan, perhaps?
And we all remember the very recent news about DICK's involvement in lying and covering up Pakistan's nuclear weapons program.

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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Not Pakistan! Los Alamos!
they bribed State Department folks etc to get placed in US labs... (los alamos and elsewhere)

eg, from the Vanity Fair Article:
"Yet another (wiretapped conversation) implied that Turkish groups had been installing doctoral students at U.S. research institutions in order to acquire information about black market nuclear weapons. In fact, much of what Edmonds reportedly heard seemed to concern not state espionage but criminal activity.."

http://wotisitgood4.blogspot.com/2006/12/sibel-nuclear-...
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randyconspiracybuff Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. But Do We Know for Sure Turkey Passed Nuke
...info directly to al Qaeda? Because the way I read Sibel's statements is that the flow goes U.S. to Turkey to Pakistani ISI to al Qaeda.
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. not exactly linear
my guess is that it's not exactly linear like that.

once you have supra-national criminal organizations, the boundaries disappear quite quickly
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. wow.
:scared:

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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. Do you know when this happened?
Edited on Thu May-03-07 08:46 AM by DrDebug
Also if you were to go to Los Alamos, you'd fly to Albuquerque and not Santa Fe, because that airport is quite limited, right?




Flight plan N313P

30.11.2002 From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA to: Albuquerque New Mexico, USA
30.11.2002 From: Albuquerque New Mexico, USA to: Portsmouth New Hampshire, USA
01.12.2002 From: Portsmouth New Hampshire, USA to: Pisa, Italy
01.12.2002 From: Pisa, Italy to: Frankfurt, Germany
04.12.2002 From: Frankfurt, Germany to: Mildenhall, England
04.12.2002 From: Mildenhall, England to: Andrews Air Force Base, Maryland, USA
05.12.2002 From: Andrews Air Force Base, Maryland, USA to: Desert Rock, Nevada, USA
05.12.2002 From: Desert Rock (Camp Atom), Nevada, USA to: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
06.12.2002 From: Las Vegas Nevada to: Kinston, North Carolina, USA
14.12.2002 From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA to: Dulles, Washington DC, USA
15.12.2002 From: Dulles, Washington DC, USA to: Frankfurt, Germany
16.12.2002 From: Frankfurt, Germany to: Islamabad, Pakistan
23.12.2002 From: Islamabad, Pakistan to: Frankfurt, Germany
23.12.2002 From: Frankfurt, Germany to: Dulles Washington DC, USA
24.12.2002 From: Dulles, Washington DC, USA to: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. sibel was before this
(oh - and FTR - i was just using Los Alamos as a generic term - i'm not really sure which labs were penetrated - i suspect most of them)
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Before is good
It would have been many labs, like University of Pisa's nuclear plant department, nuclear airbases like RAF Mildenhall and USAF Andrews, (former) nuclear test sites like Camp Atom, etc.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=N313P-N4476S
http://www.statewatch.org/cia/documents/flight-log-N313...
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. K & R
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks, Luke. What do you mean by, "Sibel's definition of al Qaeda"?
Edited on Thu May-03-07 07:47 AM by leveymg
If I get your drift -- please correct me, if I'm misreading this -- Sibel is saying that the nuclear club includes quasi-state and even non-state actors that are not officially acknowledged: certain Pakistani and Turkish Generals, the Saudi Royal family, perhaps some ethnic Russian Mafiyya and wealthy Indonesians.

In other words, Sibel is saying the very people who have been involved in the criminal network of arms dealing, drug trafficking, and nuclear proliferation that overlaps the AQ Khan network and the groups various US intelligence agencies and political figures have been doing business with for decades have the bomb?
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randyconspiracybuff Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I Think Sibel Is Applying a Broad Definition...
...that includes groups like the KLA that may have important links/relationships with the formal al Qaeda group.

But that's just my guess..
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I think the reference is broader than the KLA. Perhaps, Luke or
someone else can clarify?
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randyconspiracybuff Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Luke Might Be Able To...
...but I think a lot of this stuff is classified info and can only be hinted at.
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. what is al qaeda?
well - for starters, sibel was asked "what is al qaeda?"

Her answer:
"This is a very interesting and complex question. When you think of al-Qaeda, you are not thinking of al-Qaeda in terms of one particular country, or one particular organization. You are looking at this massive movement that stretches to tens and tens of countries. And it involves a lot of sub-organizations and sub-sub-organizations and branches and it's extremely complicated. So to just narrow it down and say al-Qaeda and the Saudis, or to say it's what they had at the camp in Afghanistan, is extremely misleading. And we don't hear the extent of the penetration that this organization and the sub-organizations have throughout the world, throughout their networks and throughout their various activities. It's extremely sophisticated. And then you involve a significant amount of money into this equation. Then things start getting a lot of overlap-- money laundering, and drugs and terrorist activities and their support networks converging in several points. That's what I'm trying to convey without being too specific. And this money travels. And you start trying to go to the root of it and it's getting into somebody's political campaign, and somebody's lobbying. And people don't want to be traced back to this money."
http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/050704SibelEdmonds.sh...

This is a very interesting and complex question, and answer. Certainly 'broader than the KLA.'

The (most) interesting part of the answer is "we don't hear the extent of the penetration..." - I'll try to answer some of that in a future post. In the meatime, i just wanted to point out (hence my observation in the post) that when Sibel says 'al qaeda has nukes' - it may not mean exactly what people might automatically assume it to mean.

sibel appears to be saying that 'al qaeda' <> 'osama + hijackers + caves' - whether that ought make us more or less comfortable, i'll leave till a later date.
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. What she means is that the terrorists, nuke dealers and al-Qaeda overlap
So what we call al-Qaeda is slightly different, but is where you have all those things coming together, right?


N313P:

09.03.2004 From: Mitiga, Libya to: Palma de Mallorca, Spain
11.03.2004 Unrelated: Madrid Train Bombing
12.03.2004 From: Palma de Mallorca, Spain to: Baghdad, Iraq
12.03.2004 From: Baghdad, Iraq to: Kabul, Afghanistan

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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. well, there are two separate questions
one is 'who is in the nuclear club?' - and the other "what is al qaeda?"

i want to be a bit careful - because i want to construct a post, with supporting evidence, and with speculation appropriately labelled, to answer the second question.

but her 'Goss' reference clearly states that she has evidence that 'al qaeda' (however defined) has nukes.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. The crux is the intersection where AQ and nuclear club overlap.
It's very important to be precise about both terms, since the implications are so extreme.

Maybe we can get a clearer definition of both terms, and let the reader do the Ven Diagram.
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. indeed - that's why i'm a bit hesitant to expand atm
the point is tho, that sibel's defintion of al qaeda seems more expansive than most - which leads us to some other interesting questions.
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Right
"In other words, Sibel is saying the very people who have been involved in the criminal network of arms dealing, drug trafficking, and nuclear proliferation that overlaps the AQ Khan network and the groups various US intelligence agencies and political figures have been doing business with for decades have the bomb?"

Very close; they have had the access/means; made it possible via 'the network.' Do they have an actual 'Bomb;' likely...
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randyconspiracybuff Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Which Means It Is Time for Me...
...to move to a tropical island. Because if they likely have it, they'll likely use it.
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. i live on an untropical one!
you are all welcome here.

(ok - only one, or maybe two)
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
16. This seems to be playing into the Neocons' game.
Edited on Thu May-03-07 08:18 AM by The Stranger
Tenet confirmed that PNAC, through Richard Perle, orchestrated the lies that fucked the U.S. into the Iraq war, even that they knew Iraq had nothing to do with 911. So Tenet isn't lying about that.

And running around saying that Al Queda has nukes is exactly what the Neocons want everyone to think. The inundation of the population with fear is how they have continued to hijack an entire nation with a "war on terror."
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randyconspiracybuff Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Tenet May Not Be 'Lying' About the PNAC...
...but he sure didn't do much to stop it. I have zero toleranace for people like Tenet who come out 4 years too late to do any good and try and act like a hero.

Tenet had his chance to try and stop the Iraq war. He blew it.
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Book Promo
"I have zero tolerance for people like Tenet who come out 4 years too late to do any good and try and act like a hero."

Well put. Also, consider the 3-4 million$ book deal. Yesterday,I spoke with an author who shares an agent with him...money talks.
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. let's hope sibel gets the same agent
she deserves at least the $4m upfront - and we all know she's been fighting from the beginning, not like the snivelling tenet.

oh - what i'd give for sibel to get the media attention that tenet has received this last week!

(and i'm sure she won't come across like a raving lunatic like GT did this week)

Henry Waxman can make a hero of himself in the next month if he wants.
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ajeffersonian Donating Member (100 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
22. Sobering aspect of Sibel's case
Lukery: Thanks for another excellent post, albeit a sobering one. This, to me, is the most serious, the most scary part of the entire Sibel Edmonds saga - that some within our own government have been and probably still are being instrumental in handing over nuclear technology that can and probably will be used against us.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
28. k&r
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
29. Didn't al Qaeda
Edited on Thu May-03-07 09:43 AM by noise
already attack the US with weapons grade anthrax? Maybe Goss simply forgot when he briefed Congress.

A nuke threat would certainly be sufficient to blackmail Congress. One recalls Sen. Dayton getting disturbed by some sort of threat warning shortly before the 2004 election. Cheney uses nuclear fearmongering in his speeches.

Pretty sad when one can't tell the difference between fearmongering, subtle threats or honest intelligence concerns.

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al bupp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
30. Interesting post, with lots of food for thought
There is a dead link on it, though. The reference for supporting documentation to the allegation that the CIA & FBI have known for a while that al Qaeda has nukes:

http://www.wotisitgood4.blogspot.com/2006/12/sibel-nucl...

returns a page not found from the host...

C'est dommage.
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. link fixed
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
33. Does it have to be Waxman?
Don't get me wrong; I like him. But he's not budging, evidently.

Is there another member of Congress who could give her a forum to speak?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. We'll see.
I'm back to kick this.
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
44. Judiciary
Conyers could do it, or Senate Intel, or Senate Judiciary...

we'll take a closer look at those options soon.
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
35. Things keep slipping through my fingers
A few months ago there was a thread here about how Israel got its nukes. There was a link to an article about the French, and I posted my surprise that it wasn't the US. Someone responded to me with a link to the Atomic Scientists Bulletin with an article about Nixon and Israel and the bomb.

Damn me. I don't have it at the moment, but the point is that this chapter in our history is still hush, hush. But the question remains, "How did our nuclear technology get transferred?" Whatever this extra-legal channel was, it could have remained open for business. There seems to be a faction of the defense industry that doesn't seem very concerned with our defense.

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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. i hope this was intentionally funny
i hope this was intentionally funny
"There seems to be a faction of the defense industry that doesn't seem very concerned with our defense."
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. I do have a strange sense of humor
but I'm only half joking. I've been reading "When the Pentagon was for Sale" and I always laugh at the title being past tense. I'm so glad we got that all behind us. One bedrock principle is that power corrupts, and I'm struck with the secrecy and power of the defense industry, which has increased with privatization. There was never any public debate about the wisdom of this. I think some pretty bad things have come out of it. No doubt most defense contractors are not crooks and are certainly not traitors. Nonetheless, there has been some profiteering that sets aside our welfare. That's all I meant about not being concerned with our national good so much as their profits. Once that principle is established, who knows who they'd do business with or why.
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Seymour Hersh, the Sampson Option
There is a condensed version at: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/farr.htm

The point is that Lyndon Johnson gave permission to James Angleton to contact the French. The reason was that Israel didn't trust Richard Nixon and the CIA in general because of their former nazis and nazi collaborators, and France was considered suffiently denazified after WWII.


In 1964, Lyndon Johnson had given James Angleton permission to assist Israel in further developing its nuclear-weapons program. Now the Reagan administration was leveling the playing field. The Saudis claimed that Israel had directly aided India in developing its program and had thus created a dangerous imbalance in the region. Allowing Pakistan to develop a weapon, but not to deploy it, seemed like a workable compromise and, the Saudis argued, the only solution.

Joseph Trento, Prelude To Terror, page 317


The Saudis used the Safari Club network to create Pakistan's nuclear weapon which was financied from their share of the money for organizing the Afghani resistence which was funded by the Islamic Development Bank.


The same leadership that promulgated the Safari Club—the Saudi royals—also strongly funded and supported the Islamic Development Bank. Begun in 1973, the IDB now has 55 member states, with Saudi Arabia dominating, with 27.33 percent of the bank’s funding. As a comparison, Egypt contributes 9.48% and Pakistan just 3.41% of the bank’s total capital. It was through the bank’s scientific and economic development efforts that huge amounts were funneled into Pakistan, which ended up in the hands of A.Q. Khan and his now-infamous nuclear bomb-building syndicate.

The effort that began prior to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan—and that President Carter’s National Security Adviser warned was a serious effort to build the first Islamic bomb—was deliberately ignored by Carter in order to secure Saudi and Pakistani cooperation for the anti-Soviet effort in Afghanistan. Like almost everything about the anti-Soviet effort, the Reagan administration expanded on it; and the CIA directly assisted the Pakistani nuclear effort by allowing Pakistani nationals to procure hardware for the program in violation of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

(...)

Joseph Trento, Prelude To Terror, page 313


Trento's book deals in great detail with how the A.Q. Khan network was financed and supported by the Safari Club which included the so-called rogue CIA which consisted of former intelligence officers from the United States, France and Saudi Arabia among others. George H.W. Bush used the same group for the October Surprise because he no longer had access to the "normal" CIA.
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. AQKhan still operating
In KTM, Trento says that the AQKhan network is still operating - alive and well.
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. That's why I tried to get people to look at N313P
It is the 737 of the CIA rendition program. It tends to land in the most peculiar places on earth. N313P was one of 26 airplanes (plus 25 additional airplanes which they rented), however it was their largest airplane and able to transport entire teams and delegations from one place to another.

Just like the rogue CIA of the Safari Club, the plane does not seem to directly related to the CIA but is registered to a lawyer and the Paul Laxalt Group which was the former U.S. Senator (R) during the Reagan administration ( http://www.sfbg.com/40/11/cover_plane.html )

According to the official EU investigation into CIA rendition the planes were always rented to one customer called Aero Contractors, Ltd which was operated Jim "Peg Leg" Rhyne, who was one of the chief pilots of Air America, the CIA's airline of the Vietnam era ( http://durhamspark.blogspot.com/2006/02/spotlighting-no... ) which is exactly what the Safari Club was all about as well. It consisted of former senior intelligence officer.

Five planes visited Desert Rock which is an airstrip in the middle of nowhere in Nevada around the same time. The only thing which is near Desert Rock is Camp Atom which is a former nuclear test site. Also the planes visit many places which seemed to have a nuclear connection around the same. And then their main 737 left for Pakistan. (See above)

This kind of evidence is certainly not direct, however it is an indication that the Safari Club network may still be in existance and used by the A.Q. Khan network for nuclear proliferation. The Safari Club was exposed by Ayatollah in 1981 when he let an Egyptian reporter look into the archives of the Shah of Iran, and official the network was closed in 1981 by Jacques Chirac who was mayor of Paris at the time.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I was checking on the rendition flights
out of NC and the Trans Global Park (or whatever it's called in Kinston) and ran into a shell corporation other that Aero Contracting, but can't remember what it was. Would you happen to know? I would have paid more attention if I thought it could be related to all this.
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. There are two companies
There is the registrant. It was first registered to Stevens Express Leasing. On May 1, 2002 it was transfered to Premier Executive Transport (the main owner) and later transfered to Keeler and Tate Management. All those companies have completely fictional owners and employee lists, so the only thing which you can find is the law firm attached to it (which leads to Reagan's buddy Paul Laxalt in this case)

The important company is the company which continously rents the aircraft. There are three companies for three different groups. The most interesting group is Aero Contracting, because they continously rented N313P for their flights.

The shell game by Clayton Hallmark:

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Thanks.
Seems one had a connection to High Point NC if my memory serves me correctly. I'll go through what you've provided.
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. Thanks
It's pretty sobering. What a pleasant fantasy I've been living in thinking that SALT and MAD and the end of the Cold War had somehow made us safer. Seems nuclear ambitions are alive and well. What I still don't get - well, actually I don't get any of it; it all seem insane to me - but why would we or Israel help terrorists get weapons? For instance, that case the Sibel pointed to, the guy in NJ convicted for smuggling through SA or Dubai or where the heck ever to Pakistan...I don't get it. Other than just greed, why?

Anyway, thanks for that very informative link.

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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. If you have buyers, you have sellers
Edited on Fri May-04-07 01:19 PM by DrDebug
The fact remains that many countries have nuclear aspirations, so there is a market. If there is a market, there are a sellers.

The SALT agreement has its root in the Cuban Missile Crisis when it became obvious that a faction of the military in both the United States and the USSR wanted a nuclear war. The main reason why it didn't happen is because President John F. Kennedy and Premier Khrushchev did not want to be responsible for a nuclear war. We know what happened to JFK and also Khrushchev was removed from office by his colleagues the next year. China even called Khrushchev a wimp. So even though that lunatic fringe just consists of a small number of people, they are extremely powerful.

What we see is that many nations want nuclear weapons and they either get it directly or indirectly. And once you have nuclear weapons then nobody is going to mess with you as best demonstrated by North Korea whose leader is a megalomanic who is very capable of destroying what ever is still left of his nation. There is always a group willing to sell and you can get it indirectly if you have enough money and dedication.

Edit:

The two men who prevented a nuclear war. Regardless of their flaws, that achievement deserves praises, however the exact opposite happened.



Stanislav Petrov, the man who turned off the Russian computers who were about to retaliate against an attack which never happened. Stanislev prevented a nuclear attack on September 26, 1983. He got demoted.

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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. What I'm trying to say
Edited on Fri May-04-07 04:04 PM by DrDebug
This world is far from perfect. It is a given fact that there are currently countries which are allowed to have nuclear weapons. Even though a multitude of safe guards have been implemented, there are at least 20 documented cases which could have lead to a nuclear war. The most dangerous were the Cuban Missile Crisis and the Stanislav Petrov case which was a false alert. We are very fortunate that we managed to avoid a nuclear war at least twenty times since World War II.

Currently there are several nations which also possess nuclear weapons and trying to possess. This does not mean that countries like Iran is a threat right now, however negotiations are required. The same applies to the Pakistan issue because Saudi Arabia control of those nuclear weapons as well since they bought it.

As mentioned before the definition of al-Qaeda depends on what it to be. If your definition of al-Qaeda is an organization which practizes terror without safeguards, then that definition of al-Qaeda most likely also has the technology to (eventually) make nuclear weapons which can be deployed without the normal procedures which apply within the United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and France.

The make matters worse, the entity to which I am refering is not the United States or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and is also not not the United States, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan. It is network which has a global presence and uses a wide variety of fronts, organizations and networks which includes but is not limited to the A.Q. Khan network.

What I'm talking about is events like:

possible terror attacks, such as a radioactive release that "made 10 miles of Chicago's waterfront uninhabitable for 50 years

National Commission on Terrorism 2000

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3006783.stm


Are events like that possible with the current penetrations into the nuclear facilities? The answer is Yes. And those weapons are controlled without the normal standard operating procedures and guidelines (which have come close to failure 20 times already as well)

What can be done about it? A thorough investigation into the A.Q. Khan network and its supply and coordination network including Aero Contractors, Halliburton because there are indication that they have played a role in the proliferation of nuclear material.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-03-07 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
40. Kick for a most important story not being told.
:kick:

I'll be back to kick later.
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-04-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
49. Why is Washington going easy on Pakistan's nuclear black marketers?
The Khan-for-Iran deal with Khadaffi. Why Iran is currently the target and Khan was sacrifized however his network continued. Please note that this story has been officially denied by officials of the governments of the US and Pakistan include George W. Bush who called it "wild speculation." ( http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/10/world/10cnd-prexy.htm... )


The Deal
Why is Washington going easy on Pakistan’s nuclear black marketers?
by Seymour M. Hersh

March 8, 2004

On February 4th, Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan, who is revered in Pakistan as the father of the country’s nuclear bomb, appeared on a state-run television network in Islamabad and confessed that he had been solely responsible for operating an international black market in nuclear-weapons materials. His confession was accepted by a stony-faced Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan’s President, who is a former Army general, and who dressed for the occasion in commando fatigues. The next day, on television again, Musharraf, who claimed to be shocked by Khan’s misdeeds, nonetheless pardoned him, citing his service to Pakistan (he called Khan “my hero” ). Musharraf told the Times that he had received a specific accounting of Khan’s activities in Iran, North Korea, and Malaysia from the United States only last October. “If they knew earlier, they should have told us,” he said. “Maybe a lot of things would not have happened.”

(...)

A Bush Administration intelligence officer with years of experience in nonproliferation issues told me last month, “One thing we do know is that this was not a rogue operation. Suppose Edward Teller had suddenly decided to spread nuclear technology and equipment around the world. Do you really think he could do that without the government knowing? How do you get missiles from North Korea to Pakistan? Do you think A.Q. shipped all the centrifuges by Federal Express? The military has to be involved, at high levels.” The intelligence officer went on, “We had every opportunity to put a stop to the A. Q. Khan network fifteen years ago. Some of those involved today in the smuggling are the children of those we knew about in the eighties. It’s the second generation now.”

(...)

Last December, President Bush and Tony Blair, the British Prime Minister, jointly announced that Muammar Qaddafi, the Libyan leader, had decided to give up his nuclear-weapons program and would permit I.A.E.A. inspectors to enter his country. The surprise announcement, the culmination of nine months of secret talks, was followed immediately by a six-day inspection by the I.A.E.A., the first of many inspections, and the public unveiling, early this year, of the role of yet another country, Malaysia, in the nuclear black market. Libya had been able to purchase hundreds of millions of dollars’ worth of nuclear parts, including advanced centrifuges designed in Pakistan, from a firm in Malaysia, with a free-trade zone in Dubai serving as the main shipping point. It was a new development in an old arms race: Malaysia, a high-tech nation with no indigenous nuclear ambitions, was retailing sophisticated nuclear gear, based on designs made available by Khan.

(...)

A high-level intelligence officer who has access to the secret Iran-Pakistan exchanges told me that he understood that “the Pakistanis were very worried that the Iranians would give their name to the I.A.E.A.” The officer, interviewed in Tel Aviv, told me that Israel remains convinced that “the Iranians do not intend to give up the bomb. What Iran did was report to the I.A.E.A. the information that was already out in the open and which they cannot protect. There is much that is not exposed.” Israeli intelligence, he added, continues to see digging and other nuclear-related underground activity in Iran. A nonproliferation official based in Vienna later explained that Iran has bored two holes near a uranium-mining operation that are “deep enough to do a test”—as deep as two hundred metres. The design of the bomb that could be tested, he added, if Iran chose to do so, came from Libya, via Pakistan and A. Q. Khan.

(...)

One Arab intelligence operative told me that Libyan intelligence, with Qaddafi’s approval, then quickly offered to give American and British intelligence details about a centrifuge deal that was already under way. The parts were due to be shipped aboard a German freighter, the B.B.C. China. In October, the freighter was seized, and the incident was proclaimed a major intelligence success. But, the operative said, it was “the Libyans who blew up the Pakistanis,” and who made the role of Khan’s black market known. The Americans, he said, asked “questions about those orders and Libya said it had them.” It was, in essence, a sting, and was perceived that way by Musharraf. He was enraged by what he called, in a nationally televised speech last month—delivered in Urdu, and not officially translated by the Pakistani government—the betrayal of Pakistan by his “Muslim brothers” in both Libya and Iran. There was little loyalty between seller and buyer. “The Pakistanis took a lot of Libya’s money and gave second-grade plans,” the Arab intelligence operative said. “It was halfhearted.”

(...)

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/03/08/040308fa_fa...



04.10.2003 BBC China intercepted
http://www.isis-online.org/publications/libya/cent_proc...

N313P: ( http://www.statewatch.org/cia/documents/flight-log-N313... )

19.10.2003 From: RAF Northolt, England to: Tripoli, Libya
22.10.2003 From: Mitiga, Libya to: RAF Northolt, England
28.10.2003 From: RAF Northolt, England to: Mitiga, Libya
29.10.2003 From: Mitiga Libya to: RAF Northolt, England
29.10.2003 From: RAF Northolt, England to: Shannon, Ireland

(...)

01.12.2003 From: Dulles, Washington DC, USA to: RAF Northolt, England
01.12.2003 From: RAF Northolt, England to: Mitiga, Libya
03.12.2003 From: Mitiga, Libya to: RAF Northolt, England
06.12.2003 From: RAF Northolt, England to: Malta
10.12.2003 From: Malta to: Mitiga Libyen
12.12.2003 From: Mitiga, Libya to: Oxford, England
12.12.2003 From: Oxford, England to: Dulles, Washington DC, USA

(...)

16.12.2003 From: Dulles, Washington DC, USA (2:08 AM) to: Luton, England

16.12.2003 Talks in London between CIA/MI6 and Libyan delegation,
headed by Musa Kusa, head of Libyan intelligence, resulting in an accord
agreed at the Traveller’s Club, St James. ( http://www.ghostplane.net/timeline )

17.12.2003 From: London Luton, England to: Dulles, Washington DC, USA
17.12.2003 From: Dulles, Washington DC, USA to: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

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