I am outraged...

[PCIntern]

when I was growing up Jewish in Lower Bucks County, just north of the Philadelphia line, the number of anti-Semitic remarks, behaviors, vandalism, and outright violence used to increase exponentially as Easter approached. The 'explanation' for all this hatred manifesting itself was that "the Jews killed Christ".

So although I never took LSD, I'm having flashbacks now that members of the Vatican, yes the same Vatican which renounced the "Jews killed Christ" meme all those years ago, are blaming the Jewish Press for 'revealing', that is publishing court documents, that these horrors were occurring in their Church. Of course, it is Easter today and so all of this is just "right on time" as far as I am concerned.

I am reliving one of the more painful difficulties of my childhood and I'm not at all pleased about it.

[NJmaverick]

1. Jesus is the all powerful immortal son of God. How could any group of mere mortals "kill him"?

:shrug:

[PCIntern]

2. It's "God's Plan"...

Sort of a Chapter 13 reorganizing plan...just vaster in scale...

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Sorry about your flashbacks. When it comes to the Church, it's sort of the casino mentality

where "The House always wins."

[lunatica]

4. The bad old days are baaaack!

And it really suks!

But in all honesty I don't think the Catholic Church is going to quite make it this time. Too many Catholic victims over the lifetime of the Church. The Pope can't compare himself to Jesus and their myth about how he was crucified. The Romans did it, and Pope Benedict isn't Jesus and he isn't innocent of all charges and he isn't being crucified.

[av8rdave]

5. OK, here's what I don't get:

Wasn't it prophesy that Christ would die for our sins? If so, and if the jews did in fact kill Christ, should they not be rewarded for fulfilling God's prophesy and bestowing a great gift on mankind?

What would the morans prefer? That Jesus DIDN'T die for us?

Note: I am not trying to comment in any way the accuracy of whether or not Jews killed Christ. I'm not that well versed historically or religiously.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Throw In The Fact Jesus And Eleven Out Of His Twelve Disciples Were Jewish And You Have Some Irony

I have roots in Judaism and Christianity and am really disappointed by the Catholic Church's response.

[Lerkfish]

11. AFAIK, all his disciples were jewish. If you're thinking of Paul, he's an apostle.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. My Bad . I Was Thinking Of Luke Who Was A Gentile

And I believe Paul was Jewish

[lunatica]

8. Pontius Pilate was a Roman and Jesus was crucified by the Romans

Sorry for the history lesson. And even that bit of history is in the Bible. The whole blame it on the Jews is historical fabrication to create a scapegoat. Pope Pius XII decreed that the Jews did not kill Jesus way back in the 1950s. First Benedict tries to blame the gays for pedophilia and then he tries to blame to Jews for writing about him and his actions on dealing with the pedophilia. Scapegoating seems to be the last refuge of the guilty.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Jerusalem Was Under Roman Control. Nothing Happened Without Their Assent

Also, it was a group of Jews who lodged their complaints against Jesus. It wasn't all Jews. Saying the Jews killed Jesus would be as accurate as saying the whites killed John Kennedy.

[notadmblnd]

15. The Pharisees instigated it.

And when Pontius Pilot could find that he had done nothing wrong, He gave the people a choice. Release Jesus or release a thief, the people (those who where conspiring against Jesus, including the Pharisees chose the thief. It was all political at the time and the only reason that religion is involved is because the Jewish leaders were afraid of Jesus' potential to influence the people in regards to the $$ flowing into the temple.

[av8rdave]

13. Thanks..the more I learn, the more ignorant I seem to be!

[treestar]

16. I was just hearing the Passion read in church though

Pilate says he will release Jesus and the crowd says to crucify him.

But even so, that doesn't justify any Anti-Semitism.

[PCIntern]

18. Believe everything you read?

This was written by committee and AFAIC it's like reading a missive from Ari Fleischer and saying, well,this is what happened.

[kestrel91316]

38. Worse, it's a bad historical NOVEL written by committee.

There is some good stuff in the bible, but most of it is unreadable dreck. While there may be some basis in historical fact for some of it, other parts are just utter fabrication.

[treestar]

43. I'm not saying I believed it

Just that it is what the story says.

The fact there are four of them shows the details are not very well pinned down - at least for the 21st century Western minds.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. The Crowd Was Comprised Of Jews

But that's different than saying the Jews as a people killed him. And an all powerful God could have stopped them if he wanted. This was all predicted in the Book Of Isaiah . Jesus was born to die the way he did.

[PCIntern]

28. ...and Teabaggers are comprised of Dems and Repubs, right?

I mean, who TF knows what really happened, if anything? It's not cut-and-dried and not simple...fact is neither I nor anyone living today killed Jesus of Nazareth, presuming such a person really existed, and AFAIC, that's reason enough not to be mentioned as a Race or Ethnic Group in the same sentence with the word 'killed'. I don't blame young Germans for the Holocaust, in fact, many if not most, are proactively ashamed of their own history.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. The Whole Point Is I Categorically Reject Collective Guilt

A belated Happy Passover.

[PCIntern]

33. point taken and thank you...

I'm generally pissed at the collective ignorance of organized religion and can't stand hypocrisy thereof. the differences within the Gospels point to political and interpretive discord. not to mention the gospels which weren't included b/c they were too radical...

[treestar]

44. That's what the Catholic Church says now

It admits it is no excuse for hating Jews. That would have been done by ignorant people. Jesus was Jewish. The crowd in the story are Jews. So all true. But it does not justify hating the Jews as a people.

[Karenina]

27. Today the pope did not even MENTION the crisis.

His boyz did, however, manage a change in protocol to allow another of their number to address him and refer to the victims' accounts as "petty gossip." THIS on Easter Sunday when MILLIONS were quite vocal in looking for leadership from him. :shrug:

[lunatica]

31. The wagons have circled

The guilty conspirators attack the victims of their conspiracy of silence, and point a finger at the people who shed light on it.

They're definitely not turning the other cheek.

[Karenina]

35. From FT: a quote from a survivor

Barbara Blaine, a founder of the US Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP), said: “Deeply wounded victims and our family members need comfort and healing but instead receive reprimands and insults. When we speak up and tell how our childhood innocence was shattered by sexual assaults by priests it is not ‘petty gossip’.”

Ms Blaine said: “The track record of the Pope has been to cover up and seek silence about the sex crimes by priests. The Pope has said very little and taken no decisive action to rid the church of the sexual predators nor to offer justice to victims.”

I'm waiting for Sinead to weigh-in again...

Rowan Williams has backed away from his SPOT-ON commentary. Reminds me of the Bush years. :rofl:

[treestar]

14. True, it is people just being stupid

And propping their pre-existing Anti-Semitism.

Jesus and his family and followers were all Jewish.

There is a statement in the Catholic Missal now to the effect that the modern day or previous Jews should not be scapegoated - it's on the page after the readings from the Passion.

[Morning Dew]

19. Interesting question

And Pharaoh did God's will as well - God hardened his heart, etc.

Don't forget Judas - he did God's will as well.

Two of the most reviled figures in the Bible were simply doing God's will.

[kestrel91316]

37. You're wrong in assuming that the God in the bible acts rationally.

Bad move.

:shrug:

[LiberalLoner]

6. I'm so sorry for what you went through and are going through. I hate prejudism in any form. n/t

[PCIntern]

9. thanks...don't worry...

it's more of a literary flashback...

[Lost4words]

12. we are failing to evolve,we know more about selling jeans to 8 year olds than we do about developing

the human condition.

[DailyGrind51]

17. The Romans pounded in the nails at the order of a weak governor who gave in to "teabaggers"!

[Kahuna]

20. How I remember the scapegoating of the Jews when I was a kid. But

even as a small child, who didn't attend church regularly, I knew that it was the Romans that actually killed him, although the Jews wanted the Romans to do so. The truth of the matter is that it was prophesied that Jesus be killed for the salvation of all. So, in reality, NOBODY killed him because he was resurrected and didn't actually die. He was supposed to die and he did. But he was also resurrected. :shrug: Even as a child I got that. You can't have it both ways.

[MineralMan]

22. I've always found it interesting that the Roman Catholic Church

depicts a dead Jesus, still on the cross at the front of every church. It is the dead Christ that is their symbol. "Jesus died for your sins," is the constant thing, with Easter being the only time the Resurrection is really celebrated.

What has that led to? For one, condemnation of Jews, the "Christ-killers," and excuses for Rome, which actually killed him, according to the scriptures Christians believe.

Dead Jesus. You killed Jesus because you're evil at heart. Such a sorry image to form the centerpiece of an altar, It seems to me.

Of course, I believe none of it, so it doesn't actually have an impact on me, but I've always found it curious.

[malaise]

23. A deliciously funny and profound

post. The contradictions that people accept in the name of religion should only make rational people laugh all the time.

[MineralMan]

34. I actually did an OP in Religion on the subject after writing that.

I'm hoping to get an explanation for it.

[malaise]

42. I'll check it out this evening

Thanks

[kestrel91316]

39. You've summarized how I have felt for years, lol.

[Berry Cool]

24. I am SO glad I grew up in a church that didn't peddle that "Christ killer" meme.

It never made historical sense and it never made logical sense (as was pointed out here, what, did these people who made this accusation NOT want Christ's death and resurrection to come to pass?).

Of course, to some people religion of any kind makes no logical sense, and because it's faith, technically, it doesn't have to in most ways--but there's a definite logical disconnect going on with Christians who blame Jews for "killing Christ," yet believe that same action was utterly necessary in order to bring about their own spiritual salvation. If they really believe the Jews were solely responsible for killing Christ, they should be on their knees every day thanking them!

I never think of this business of assigning blame for the death of Jesus that I don't think of that line from "Sympathy for the Devil": "I shouted out 'Who killed the Kennedys?' when after all it was you and me." (And yeah, I know, earlier in that song, the Devil takes credit for Christ's death.) Humanity as a whole--not just one group of people or another--was responsible for Christ's death. Not only the members of it who screamed for his death when he was here, but also those whose collective sin he had to die to redeem. So, if you're a true Christian, you don't go pointing fingers looking for other people to blame. You realize it was done for you and because of you. You also take to heart the story of Peter, who said he would stand by Jesus to the end, but instead denied him three times, out of his own human fears and terror.

True Christians don't get on their high horses and finger-pointy about the story of Easter. On the contrary, they're humbled by it. Anyone who does act as if Easter is the story of their own personal specialness vs. somebody else is not a true Christian.

[lunatica]

26. Jesus would be turning over in his grave if he hadn't already done so

[panader0]

29. Never too late for the LSD........

[Warpy]

32. I survived Catholic school

and I don't recall ever hearing that "Christ killer" meme from the nuns. It mostly came from the other ignorant little savages in my classroom. A lot of the church sponsored hate had been suppressed after WWII and the enormity of what had happened to Jews under Hitler shamed them into silence.

Not so the poisonous parents in the flock, I suppose.

I also remember the uptick in swastikas painted on temples during Easter week. It gave me a sick feeling, too. That shit is never far below the surface and Jews aren't the only ones vulnerable to it.

[kestrel91316]

36. Ignore the pope. Ignore the Vatican. Hell, ignore all of organized christianity.

The only part of christianity worth paying the slightest bit of attention to is the actual teachings of Christ. And since you're Jewish, you don't even need to do that, but there's no harm in it.

[jotsy]

40. Our authoritative institutions are failing to acknowledge their flaws, rage warranted.

Consider that anger as evidence of your progress as an individual in a society with structures intent on keeping us within their own limited school of thought. Find the hope over the hardship, as I contend it has a much better chance of springing eternally. Live new and now.

[amborin]

41. K&R

[eleny]

45. KR

It's outrageous.