What the military is doing to the minds of our men and women in uniform

[Roland99]

This is a snippet of a discussion between me and my daughter's friend, who is stationed in Iraq. Another member of the military over there with him interjected with her opinions (she quoted me...the part in italics):

"BUT, except for the Afghanistan theater, it's been 65 years since any member of the military actually defended this nation and its freedoms. Every war since has been to defend US interests and to keep feeding what I call The Beast (the military industrial complex). Korea, Vietnam (esp. Vietnam), Panama, Grenada, Iraq were all fought to further U.S. corporate interests. There is just no debate in that."

Those are YOUR words. You lost every ounce of respect I had for you when you said those words. The American Soldiers over there are defending THIS nation, they are defending it against terrorist groups that are trying to KILL people in our country or have you forgotten 9/11?

And just for the record, "now to cover what will be trillions of dollars in healthcare costs for the injured coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan (those injured in Iraq should never have been as we should never have been in there)" makes you sound like an insensitive asshole. Whether you believe in the war in Iraq or not, those soldiers deserve the best treatment out there and this comment makes it seem as though you are saying those who have fought and been injured or killed in Iraq did it for nothing, well guess what....you're wrong and if thats what you truly believe you can go to HELL. My nephew doesn't have a dad because of this war. It is a reality of life that my son could lose both of his parents because of this war, a war that ALL of us completely believe in what we are fighting for. While you sit at home and watch TV and enjoy starting your family life over. I hope you enjoy those freedoms you've been given while my child and his friends wonder when/if their parents are coming home this time.

I understand it's beneficial to have members of a military who do not question authority but, jesus h. christ, the indoctrination they're receiving...

It's been 7 years since the invasion and they still believe this?!?!!?

:(

[JonLP24]

1. Just like in real life

You'll have a wide variety of opinions when it comes to service members. There are civilians that believe the same shit he is saying. I can't say it's so much the military or maybe it is but there could be another explanation.

[Roland99]

2. Perhaps a better title would be "right-wing noise machine" instead.

[JonLP24]

4. That's my theory

but you could be right originally.

[ClassWarrior]

3. So it's YOUR fault that this freakazoid enlisted and put his/her children at risk of losing...

...their parents?

:eyes:

Once again, Radical RWers refuse to take responsibility for their own choices and decisions in life.

NGU.

[Fumesucker]

5. Of course they have to believe that..

If they allow themselves to see things from the more cynical perspective that many of us have it makes their sacrifices of blood, death and misery out to be worthless or indeed even evil.

Man is not a rational animal but rather an animal that rationalizes.

[L0oniX]

6. Blind obedience to authority is the enemy of the truth. - Albert Einstein

Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy. - Henry Kissinger

[rcrush]

31. That should be posted more often around here.

[lunatica]

7. The first stage of grief is denial

She can't allow herself to see the truth now. She stated it herself when she said that would mean her fellow soldiers had died for nothing. Acceptance of the truth is the fifth and last stage of the grief process. It helps to understand that it isn't indoctrination as much as a normal human process. Each stage takes as long as necessary, but eventually she will have to deal with the truth. Right now she simply can't deal with it.

The Kübler-Ross model: The five stages of grief. http://www.memorialhospital.org/library/general/stress-the-3.html

* A Normal Life Process
* Five Stages Of Grief
o 1. Denial and Isolation.
o 2. Anger.
o 3. Bargaining.
o 4. Depression.
o 5. Acceptance.
* Grief And Stress
* Recovering From Grief

A Normal Life Process

At some point in our lives, each of us faces the loss of someone or something dear to us. The grief that follows such a loss can seem unbearable, but grief is actually a healing process. Grief is the emotional suffering we feel after a loss of some kind. The death of a loved one, loss of a limb, even intense disappointment can cause grief. Dr. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross has named five stages of grief people go through following a serious loss. Sometimes people get stuck in one of the first four stages. Their lives can be painful until they move to the fifth stage - acceptance.
Five Stages Of Grief

1. Denial and Isolation.
At first, we tend to deny the loss has taken place, and may withdraw from our usual social contacts. This stage may last a few moments, or longer.
2. Anger.
The grieving person may then be furious at the person who inflicted the hurt (even if she's dead), or at the world, for letting it happen. He may be angry with himself for letting the event take place, even if, realistically, nothing could have stopped it.
3. Bargaining.
Now the grieving person may make bargains with God, asking, "If I do this, will you take away the loss?"
4. Depression.
The person feels numb, although anger and sadness may remain underneath.
5. Acceptance.
This is when the anger, sadness and mourning have tapered off. The person simply accepts the reality of the loss.

Grief And Stress

During grief, it is common to have many conflicting feelings. Sorrow, anger, loneliness, sadness, shame, anxiety, and guilt often accompany serious losses. Having so many strong feelings can be very stressful.

Yet denying the feelings, and failing to work through the five stages of grief, is harder on the body and mind than going through them. When people suggest "looking on the bright side," or other ways of cutting off difficult feelings, the grieving person may feel pressured to hide or deny these emotions. Then it will take longer for healing to take place.
Recovering From Grief

Grieving and its stresses pass more quickly, with good self-care habits. It helps to have a close circle of family or friends. It also helps to eat a balanced diet, drink enough non-alcoholic fluids, get exercise and rest.

Most people are unprepared for grief, since so often, tragedy strikes suddenly, without warning. If good self-care habits are always practiced, it helps the person to deal with the pain and shock of loss until acceptance is reached.

[scarletwoman]

8. You cannot expect soldiers in theater to do anything but WANT to believe that what they're risking

their lives for is good and just. How would they be able to function? They just hope to get out alive. Their big geopolitical questions and epiphanies can come later, once they're safe at home.

It's easy enough for you, sitting comfortably in your own home on U.S. soil to see the whole farce for what it is, but it's both unreasonable and cruel to try to push it in the faces of active duty soldiers who cannot in any way be helped by the "truth" in their current circumstances.

[JonLP24]

9. I don't think so

I always have been against it from the start. But I needed a job so I joined. How I feel about this conflict is exactly the same way I felt 7 years ago. I just focused on driving trucks from one base to another and you know what? There are soldiers against this conflict as well as those for it but geopolitics is something that is rarely discussed amongst each other. You know what I learned in Iraq. You don't know who the enemy is.

[SaveAmerica]

24. JonLP, I didn't see this earlier. This is what I meant in my #15.

Same for my husband but he's been in forever. He's one of the old guys over there who felt his experience is needed to guide the younger troops.

You didn't mention if you're stateside or not, if so, WELCOME HOME!!!

[JonLP24]

25. I've been out of he Army

for almost 2 years. I came back from deployment July/07.

Oh and thank you! Good luck to both you! I know sometimes can be harder on the non-military spouse than the actual military member because of a fear of the unknown if you understand what I mean.

[SaveAmerica]

27. Thanks, yes I know exactly what you mean.

It's the most difficult thing I've ever had to do. I have to work really hard at not 'borrowing trouble' because it wouldn't be helpful if I become a wreck. I'm definitely proud of him and his service, he's my hero and I can't wait til he's back with me.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[unhappycamper]

36. Welcome home, Brother.

:hi:

[SaveAmerica]

15. Very nice response

Another thing to think about is the servicemember who knows what's going on, has been against the US being in Iraq from the beginning then finding himself with orders in hand. You do it for your fellow soldier, marine, airmen. You focus on what you have to do to make sure you and they stay safe. That makes you able to function and helps you to get out alive. Meanwhile you have to trust that 'we the people' are keeping our eyes on the highest in their Chain of Command to see that they do right by them.

There's a kind of person out there who has something built into their make-up to protect. I don't know how or why they have this need, but I respect it. Will we see a time when those kinds of people are not used to profit certain companies and corporations? That's where you and I and everyone else in forums like this come in.

[Robb]

10. Unfortunately, it's the flip side of the "Why don't you enlist then?" argument.

It is incomprehensible for most families of soldiers to believe you can form a worthwhile opinion when you don't have skin in the game, so to speak. The parallel is when we ask chickenhawks who support the war to go enlist.

[SaveAmerica]

11. Husband is in Iraq, must comment

As the wife of a soldier in Iraq I find your post offensive. Just because that one person believes that garbage doesn't mean they all do and it doesn't mean the military has done that to her or any other servicemembers' minds.

You're painting everyone with the same brush and it's not like that. "indoctrination 'they're' receiving", "'they' still believe this". Her mind is like this on its own. (There are right wing crazy people throughout the military ranks but they aren't all like that).

The information they receive is decent, the paper they read everyday has a good variety of news from many sources. I was surprised to see that they include Doonesbury. Editorials, from what I've seen so far, could be part of any paper here in the states. They include comments from right, left and moderate political view points.

http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/launch.aspx?referral=other&refresh=b09SP2q150Ew&PBID=5ccc4e85-6771-4e10-9cc9-8bc41931e6aa&skip=

[aquart]

13. Thank you. That needed to be said.

And may your husband and his buddies all return soon and safe.

[JonLP24]

14. When I was there

In the mornings for breakfast at the dining facility they had free papers you could pick up, Stars & Stripes is what the paper is called. You could also buy The Army Times at the post exchanges there.

I agree though. Very up to date in world and US news.

[SaveAmerica]

17. Yep, it's still the Stars and Stripes

That link goes to the online version.

[Roland99]

16. hence my post #2

[SaveAmerica]

23. That would be a better subject title

But you still have the other comments about the indoctrination. I just wanted to say that not all of our guys and girls in the military are right-wing Republicans as many would have us believe. Maybe those who are Democrats are usually less vocal about their politics because they are following the rules of not dissing their Commander in Chief?

Starting out slowly with the friend might do him/her a world of good if you could help enlighten them with the truth. Or you could let it go, some of them are so far gone it's not worth getting into anymore.

[David West]

18. First post here, figured I'd chime in on this topic.

I've been kind of lurking around here for a while and following some of the discussions to sort of get a perspective on what the people around here think (lets just say I'm not in this forums typical demographic. In fact many of you would probably consider me a right-wing nut job :) ) and I finally decided it was time for me to chime in on this topic.

I'm an Army Ranger. I enlisted almost 2 years ago because I thought the wars we were fighting were just and good and that I'd be going overseas not only to protect Americans but to liberate the oppressed peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan. I became a "forward observer" because I wanted a combat MOS that would put me right in the thick of things. Last summer I deployed to Mosul, Iraq for 4 months, and while (thankfully) it was a very uneventful deployment, it was a pretty eye-opening experience for me.

Needless to say, I'm now going through the process of seeking classification as a conscientious objector because I realized that all the good reasons I thought we had to be over there are lies. I realized I could no longer take part in a war that was based on lies ad was killing more innocent people than anything. Long story short I felt that the mind-sets of my fellow soldiers and the policies of the Army were pretty horrifying and decided I could no longer serve with or under them if that's how they felt.

Now I am by no means a pacifist. I carry a firearm everyday and I'm a big proponent of self-defense and militias. I just realized that these wars weren't about protecting anybody, and therefore were unnecessary and immoral. I hate that so many people have broken things down into a falsified black and white paradigm that paints anyone who is against the wars as "unpatriotic" or "cowardly." I hate that virtually every soldier I work with shows a callous disregard for innocent life and seems to think of foreigners as somehow less human than Americans.

If anyone wants to know more about my story just ask and I'll gladly share, I just thought I'd throw in my two cents without completely bogging down the conversation. Believe me, this is a topic I could go on about for a long, LONG time.

[JonLP24]

19. Tell me more (If you want to)

I wouldn't mind reading it.

BTW-welcome to DU or congrats on your 1st post!

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. Thanks David, that was well said.

Do you agree with the OP that the views he encountered are the result of indoctrination or do you agree more with the person to whom you replied that the military is just like any other organiation? (e.g. the fact that, say, a teacher, might say those kinds of things can't be blamed on the indoctrination of her workplace?)

[David West]

26. I agree with the OP

Honestly, I agree more with OP. There's some good people in the military, no doubt, but by and large there seems to be a lot of institutional brainwashing going on. Sadly, quite a few of the really upstanding people I've met are blinded by a brand of patriotism that depicts God as bleeding red, white, and blue (and as a registered Republican). My old platoon sergeant, who never swears, doesn't drink, and has a son named "Christian Freedom" springs to mind. He's a great guy, don't get me wrong. A man of great character and integrity, it just seems like he's blinded by lies that allow him to be misused by corrupt bureaucrats, and I think that's really sad. A lot of the other personnel seem to either fall into a couple distinct camps. A disturbing number of people don't like the government, think the wars are bogus or should have ended long ago, and see straight through all the BS we do, but they just roll with it. They don't really care; they're just here to finish their contract and get out. Some people fall more into the "alpha-dog" category and enlisted just to kill people. They tend to think that the more they puff up their chest, the better they'll get their point across and working harder instead of smarter makes them more of a man. The scariest type of people, though, is probably the power-hungry type. Most career military types seem to either be of this mold or are like my old platoon sergeant and are basically noble but a little misguided. The power hungry types are in everything for themselves and think they are better than other people. My company commander is a prime example of this mind set. The guy thinks he is God's gift to humanity, and probably in a scarily literal way.

This is maybe a bit unfair a claim to make as most of my time in the military has been spent around Rangers, who are typically more bloodthirsty than the regular Army, but very few soldiers actually care about what they are doing, they just blindly follow orders and want to kill people. They have no respect whatsoever for the people they are ostensibly "protecting," be they Iraqis, Afghanis, or even just American Civilians. Alot of military personnel have this weird hatred for civilians that I can't quite explain and I could certainly never justify. They also have zero respect for women because, in the words of my squad leader, "what else are women for but to lust after?"

Everyone that I worked with seemed shocked when they found out that I wouldn't call for fire to save one of them if it meant killing dozens of civilians (this was all discussed theoretically, it never even came close to happening while I was over there). I told them that, as willing combatants, it was our job to PROTECT innocent people, and that EVERY precaution should be taken to avoid harming them even if it puts us in more danger. As soon as I'd make a claim like that people would start chiming in and asking me stuff like, "have you seen the way these people live? They're like animals! How could you care about them more than us?" I even had people accuse me, through truly convoluted feats of logic, that I must not love anyone because I'd rather let my best friend die than kill innocent people that I don't know. My squad leader, who is a regular old piece of work, literally told me that, "100 of them aren't worth one of us!" Mind you, he was talking about INNOCENT people including women and children, not just terrorists or insurgents.

I hate to say it, because it usually seems like people just pull it out of nowhere and misapply the term, but the opinions espoused by these people seem genuinely racist. Their base assumption seems to be that brown people = terrorists, or at least that Muslims = terrorists. My company commander would often spout gems like, "I hope we get re-called this weekend and surged to Somalia so we can kill all the stupid fucking Muslims!" and, "We'll get our revenge when we go to Afghanistan and start putting Muslims to bed!" It's disgusting, and to top it all off the guy claims to be a Christian, and then (and he's not alone in this) acts like I'm somehow not a Christian or at least in err because I don't see this as some kind of holy crusade.

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. Thanks. You have an interesting perspective that I lack.

Reading your post makes me question the value of an all-volunteer military.

[David West]

30. Would you rather conscription?

If it makes you question the value of an all-volunteer Army, what would you rather have? Conscription? Conscription is a moral abomination. It's slavery pure and simple. Am I correct in assuming that you would rather a conscripted Army so that there is a broader representation of mindsets within the military?

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. I've always been opposed to the draft, even when I was young enough that it was a personal issue.

That said, the modern military is more likely to be composed of people attracted to the allure of shooting people than a conscripted one would be.

"Military preparedness" is probably enhanced by a force composed of people who believe the life of one soldier is greater than 100 civilians, but I'm not sure that is the only consideration.

I don't see it as unambiguously as I once did. Remember that WW2 was won by conscripts.

[David West]

33. I could never agree to a draft.

What if, instead of having a huge, multi-trillion dollar military that anyone who felt the need to kill someone could go and join, our federal military was small or even non-existent? What if we just didn't have a standing Army, and instead relied on the reserves, National Guards, and militias for defense? They could still be rallied in time of legitimate war if a larger, more unified force is ever called for. Wouldn't that be preferable to a draft?

I can simply never view a draft as moral. I take an individualistic view of humanity as opposed to a collectivist view. The voices of many wanting someone to fight do NOT trump the right of an individual to just live out his life the way he sees fit. I think war can only be moral when people willingly stepping forward to defend themselves or other people from a real and immediate threat (ie no "preemptive war" to stop a theoretical future threat). A draft automatically precludes that. I reckon that World War II could have been won without a draft and that more people would have voluntarily enlisted had there not been a draft going on.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. I once (only) suggested to my dad that a draft wasn't necessary in ww2

His reaction was strong on this point. "Bullshit! People were getting killed over there, and only a fool volunteers for that".

He returned from conscription with a bronze star, frozen toes, epilepsy and a metal plate in his head. He was the lucky one, only two people in his company survived the battle of the bulge.

I am of two minds about this issue. I think we're seeing significant problems due to self-selection of the all volunteer military.

I'm all for a drastically downsized military.

[JonLP24]

29. Good post

You really described several types of military members perfectly. There is quite a bit of racism I think. The term "Haji" is a catch all slang for the indigenous people there for example the little shacks that sell bootleg DVDs, cheap cigarettes, etc. are referred to as "Haji shops". Also "Derka, derka" is popular term too. Even my Platoon Sergeant lectured(nice way of saying it) the whole platoon on how terms like that is racist and that you wouldn't go around saying "n-" to your comrades. Oh and I agree by the power hungry types. I do find it amusing the ones that act pumped or express desire to kill people there in hours leading up to deployment are the ones I wouldn't want to be around. I'd rather be with the smart and scared than those types. Though I do think those big talkers would probably be the first ones to shit their pants when stuff goes down.

My disagreement stems from the OP is having soldiers for the most part having a mind of their own. There is a little brainwashing where it makes you care so much more about minor stuff like remembering to put on your dog tags stateside for open ranks inspections during say 9:00 formation. Not overall political views but you make several valid points.

[Roland99]

35. Thank you for that perspective and welcome to DU

[OregonBlue]

12. Remember that Rush is on Armed Forces Radio which they all get.

[SaveAmerica]

20. Servicemembers question Rush on AFN line-up

Maybe we should help get rid of him? I looked on the AFN Radio schedule and don't see him, I see other conservatives on there but not him, I wonder if he's still being aired? Does NPR balance out Huckabee? Why is Huckabee even on the line-up? The good news is that AFN TV rotates MSNBC, CNN, and FOX for equal opportunity 'news' programming.

http://myafn.dodmedia.osd.mil/AFNRadio.aspx

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=65643

Programming questions flood AFN call session
By Jennifer H. Svan, Stars and Stripes
European edition, Monday, October 26, 2009
RELATED STORY: Q&A with AFN executives Larry Sichter and Jef Reilly

COLEMAN BARRACKS, Germany — Not everyone in American Forces Network’s overseas audience is a fan of Rush Limbaugh and the NFL, despite their popularity in the United States and their regular airing on AFN.

Two of the 21 callers to the show complained about Limbaugh.

“My problem is having Rush Limbaugh broadcast in the war zone,” said one caller. “When you have someone questioning the citizenship of the commander-in-chief … and calling him a racist, a liar and a joke, it can’t be good for our soldiers.”

“There are those in Iraq and Afghanistan who enjoy Rush Limbaugh,” Reilly said.

“If you want to talk about popular, he’s bulletproof as far as ratings and numbers of listeners are concerned,” he said, and it’s not AFN’s job to censor.


According to this article they also get programming that includes Ed Schultz and Alan Colmes (see my Huckabee comment).

I see how AFN doesn't want to censor (although I think there's a fine line between not censoring and allowing someone who, to me, seems to be committing treason with his comments) so I'm glad they're including a variety of programs. If it was only Rush I'd be all over it.

[JonLP24]

21. There was only specific time when that radio was on

and that was during work at the motor pool. Only music was played and due to the fact that lower enlisted soldiers that did most of the work in the motor pool and that most of them are young they would probably find talk radio boring. I think only loyal fans will tune him on and for the most part they can't be convinced in regards to other opinions.

(Not disagreeing, just giving my perspective :))

[Greyhound]

34. The U.S. military represents the culmination of 6,000 years experience in conditioning

young minds to do what no sane human would ever do willingly, on command. It is amazing how many people are determined to not see how effective the brain washing is.

"The casualty rate of every war is 100%".

[Nikki Stone1]

38. Why are you arguing with someone in a war zone?

I understand and share your values, but when someone is in immediate danger of being killed, it's usually best not to argue with them. Either you will get an earful of rage--which you did--or you will weaken their resolve and possibly make them vulnerable on the battlefield. I wouldn't want to do that to anyone.

If you're going to go after this war, you go after who is running it: in this case, our President Barack Obama. You do not go after the grunts in the field who will be coming back with shot up arms and legs, neurological disorders, and PTSD for years.

I think you deserve what you got. Sorry.

[Roland99]

39. Fair enough.