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Amerigo Vespucci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:46 AM
Original message
NYT via HuffPo: Obama's Deliberate Effort To End What Historians Call "The Age Of Reagan"
I had to include the link / content from the HuffPo home page just because it looks so...damn...GOOD.

:patriot:

WE'VE MOVED ON





NY Times: 'Obama's Deliberate Effort To End What Historians Call The Age Of Reagan'



In Health Care Bill, Obama Attacks Wealth Inequality
By DAVID LEONHARDT
Published: March 23, 2010

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/24/business/24leonhardt....

For all the political and economic uncertainties about health reform, at least one thing seems clear: The bill that President Obama signed on Tuesday is the federal governments biggest attack on economic inequality since inequality began rising more than three decades ago.

Over most of that period, government policy and market forces have been moving in the same direction, both increasing inequality. The pretax incomes of the wealthy have soared since the late 1970s, while their tax rates have fallen more than rates for the middle class and poor.

Nearly every major aspect of the health bill pushes in the other direction. This fact helps explain why Mr. Obama was willing to spend so much political capital on the issue, even though it did not appear to be his top priority as a presidential candidate. Beyond the health reforms effect on the medical system, it is the centerpiece of his deliberate effort to end what historians have called the age of Reagan.

Speaking to an ebullient audience of Democratic legislators and White House aides at the bill-signing ceremony on Tuesday, Mr. Obama claimed that health reform would mark a new season in America. He added, We have now just enshrined, as soon as I sign this bill, the core principle that everybody should have some basic security when it comes to their health care.


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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. k&r
:patriot:
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. An obligation to purchase health insurance does not imply a right to health care..
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Do you honestly believe repeating this enough times will some how make it true?
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Do you honestly believe that he/she isn't right?
Crap is crap, no matter who signs it into law.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Honest isn't involved.
Some posters here just refuse to vary from the party line. One of the best things DU can do is tell truth to power. Power has its minions though who snark it down.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I have often wondered how the superior ideology could be the distinct
and often powerless minority. Then I am reminded as to why things are the way they are.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Your definition of "superior" needs tweaking.
But your ego is just fine.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I honestly believe that he/she simply tried to pass off a fallacy for reason
The statement was fallacious for a number of reasons. First it assumes that all this bill does is to obligate people to purchase healthcare. Anyone who tries to pass that off as honesty is either woefully uninformed at best or intentionally misleading at worst. Next, it assumes that complicated issues can be broken down into their simplest form and still make sense. This was the classic dishonesty of Raygun. He was able to convince a large number of people that complicated issues can be solved with overly simple solutions. This is how "trickle down" Raygunomics was born. It had no basis in real economics, but it shows that if you present a solution that's so simple even stupid people can understand it, that solution will take hold no matter how wrong it is and those wrong ideas will persist for decades even after being proved wrong.

The healthcare problem in America is multifaceted problem and the solution singed by Obama is a multifaceted answer to that problem. It may not be the best answer, but it is a solid foundation which can be used to build even better solutions. To say or allege this bill doesn't help a very large number of people because someone didn't get what they personally wanted I believe is either pretty dishonest or it just expresses some of the same selfish greedy attitude that can be commonly found on the political right.

I'm not a Democrat because of what I think my party can do for me personally. I'm a Democrat because of what I think my party can do for America as a whole. I believe this is the primary difference that separates Democrats from Republicans, but apparently this attitude does not apply universally to all Democrats.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. WOW!
:wow:

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. Canada's health care bill is fourteen pages and seems to work just fine..
And it's written in two languages, English and French, so in reality it is but seven pages.

But then it's not based on an obligation to purchase private insurance.

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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I'm not sure how the length of the bill is relevant unless you subscribe to Boehner's bullshit
Each province in Canada has it's own rules and regulations which take up considerably more room on the register, so it's a bit longer than you'd have someone believe.

Unless you have none or very little income, you're also obligated to pay for health care through either payroll taxes, premiums, or both depending on what province you live. Unlike the US(despite what Boehner would have you believe), those obligations ARE enforced by rule of law and possible jail time.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. States have rules and regulations also, just like provinces.
People in the US are obligated to pay taxes enforced by rule of law too, they just don't get health care as part of the deal..

Being obligated to purchase health insurance does not necessarily imply having access to health care, I know it upsets some people to hear that but it is the truth.

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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I doubt that it upsets too many people any more than any other nonsense would
Just because a statement might be technically correct, does not mean it isn't misleading and isn't nonsense. If I want to hear irrelevant nonsense, I can tune into the Beck show and hear plenty of it. I tend not to get upset by it and instead find it a bit humorous that some actually believe such babble.

Canadians had their taxes increased when their national health care system was created, so they are NOT getting health care for free even if they live in a province that doesn't charge premiums directly. Other than Medicare, people in the US do not pay taxes that are specifically earmarked for their health care. Implying otherwise is uninformed at best and deliberately dishonest at worst.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. They get health care that is free at the point of service
I'd love to pay more taxes to get that. I despise having mass murderers as intermediaries between me and my docotr.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. I'd love to have a lot of things
I think France's system and a few others are superior to even Canada's system, much less what the US has. However the question that was asked regarded the honesty of another members post regarding what we do now have and I provided an answer. Now we can certainly opine all we want over what other countries have or what we could have had. I'm not sure how much good it does. Those countries aren't saddled with a high percentage of their electorate who are morans willing to vote against their own best interest, let alone the interest of their country.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Actually, Canada's single payer is more doable than France or the Netherlands IMO
Those countries directly dictate provider prices and so are actually cheaper per capita than Canada, which is more expensive precisely because providers have more negotiating power. Two political things: after 50 years, 59% of providers favor single payer, and I'd bet they'd prefer more negotiating power like in Canada. Secondly, it is far easier to dictate costs in a smaller county that has very little regional variation in costs.

As for political possibilities--slightly less than HALF of the PA sponsors of single payer are REPUBLICANS! I'm convinced this is our real model--CA passed single payer three times but on mostly partisan lines.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. The thing I like about France's system is choice
Now perhaps Canada's system fits Canada better, but you're talking about a country with roughly the same area as the US with only the population of Texas so obviously the challenges they face are different. I don't think America is going to accept any system that doesn't offer a lot of choice and given that we are rapidly turning into a country of the have and have nots, the haves are never going to be satisfied with only what is available to the have nots. For that reason I think France's model has a bit more chance of success. But again, as I said, all of this is academic because politically any program that even can be wildly construed as being socialistic is doomed to fail before it begins. Morans like Beck are already bringing up the ghost of Stalin even though this bill has no government component that doesn't already exist.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #41
48. The choices are all identical, though
At least for basic comprehensive policies. The add-ons are no different from those available to Canadians, who have to have them for drug coverage.

If we refuse to defend public goods just because some Repuke is going to holler socialist, we may as well just leave the country.
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #31
47. I also believe it was implemented incrementally...
I'm not an expert but didn't it start in one province then spread from there?
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
44. +1
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. crap is crap is certainly a classic over simplification of an very complex problem
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. Uh, it IS true
at least for me (fully insured and lacking access to affordable medical treatment)
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
36. Tell it to the Sarkisians.
Fuck the mass murdering SOBs.
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Fruittree Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
46. Even with single payer
which I support, you still have to pay and honestly for most people as long as the bills get paid they don't care who does the paying.
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Lost4words Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
3. move him to the stupid ideas pile next to milton friedman.
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. better yet (***IRONY ALERT***) the "ash heap of history". nt
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. And immediately if not sooner!
It will warm my heart for the rest of my life to see that abomination of reaganomics turned out on its ass. One of the most damaging movements in this country - for such a long time, and on so many levels. It glorified greed, stingey-ness, selfishness, AND stupidity - among those who embraced it and were proud of being ill-informed. And of course many of them fell back on the increasingly validated religious default - "God is on OUR side." When you have that mixture, you have no ability to communicate, reach across party lines, or even making an attempt to understand the other side. Why should you have to accommodate somebody else's view when YOU have God on YOUR side? Because if God is supposedly on YOUR side, then you can make the claim that it's the opposite of God who's on the side of your own opposition. reagan managed to combine the nut-cases of all stripes together into a critical mass of nightmares for this country. It's been AWFUL. So much of what we fought for - for civil rights, for women's rights, for workers' rights, they hated and attacked, and reagan gave them cover, motivation, and validation. And his policies HURT A LOT OF PEOPLE. He HURT people. He initiated a world of hurt, AND hate, and even carnage and death. WHOLESALE sin against The Beatitudes - one of the key teachings of the Christ he relentlessly wrapped himself around.

reagan was in this respect The ALLTIME WORST president we've ever had, in terms of what he started, and to what and to whom he gave legitimacy. reagan is the FATHER of ALL of this shit, and ALL of these shitty domestic terrorists and domestic terrorism we're facing now.

It all got validation AND plenty of power boosts and other vitamin supplements, under reagan. He put it on the map and gave it rocket fuel. His era and what he did CAN'T COME TO AN END SOON ENOUGH!!!!! The day the reagan tyranny is completely reversed and rolled back is the day America's collective soul will finally be saved.
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. seen these books?
Edited on Wed Mar-24-10 11:59 AM by eppur_se_muova
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. And Thank GOD for that! Thom Hartmann's on about this all the time, too.
He's made a big case, for a long time, about how damaging reaganomics and the whole reagan approach has been to America, both short-term AND long-term.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
4. I was dumbstruck when I picked up the paper this morning with my coffee
That article, written by Business section writer David Leonhardt, was on the front page of this morning's Times. Why didn't they publish this earlier?

(Today's Time's also has the best examples of what this bill means to different hypothetical people I've seen to date--a full page graphic of what will happen to people in different income ranges, employment (or nonemployment) situations, with dependents or no dependents, work or private insurance, etc.
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Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. Im clairvoyant
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
7. That is what CHANGE is all about
:applause:
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
8. I love the Huffington Post
this is a great article a lot of people will be talking about.

And I predict Huff Post will also run several articles challenging this one from the left. And there won't be anything wrong with that. Nothing for even the most ardent Obama supporters to hate.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
10. This is a big fucking deal.
If Obama manages to even partially drive a stake through the greasy, selfish heart of Reaganism, he'll go down in history as a great progressive president.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
13. This fusion of government and multinational corps (ala HCR) is the natural evolution of Reaganism
A natural triangulation between Reaganism and Clinton's already compromised brand of "New" politics.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. Indeed.
Screwy, ain't it?
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
50. It's where they go when they are out of gas and can't "make money the old fashioned way"
Edited on Thu Mar-25-10 10:33 AM by kenny blankenship
and of course it's where they go because they can. So why not? Sure it goes against the religion of free markets that they promoted for the last 30 years but then they never believed that crap, they just needed us to. Now they can do what they want, including contradict their own dogmas. They have chased all other people-based forces out of politics through their markets uber alles bullshit and bribery and so they can now create "privatized taxes" or "corporate tithing" or whatever you want to call it. Both political parties will enforce corporate rent-seeking schemes with their legislative programs.

They may be exhausted and unable to produce growth through the traditional ways of developing new products and markets, but they can squeeze us for every last cent through "partnership with a friendly government."
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
18. Bottom up growth
I don't think he's forgotten about that. But congress certainly doesn't like the idea at all.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
19. FOR THIS ALONE O'Bama will be remembered as one of our greatest presidents.
Edited on Wed Mar-24-10 11:39 AM by eShirl
End of the Age of Reagan
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. Which historians call it "the age of Reagan"?
Sure, there was the guy who wrote a book with that title, and doubtless members of his fan club, but among historians, how many actually use that term? I'm thinking that's not excatly a common term...
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
27. Reagan only dreamed of this age.
He thought he could raid the middle class forever, with no affect on the nation's prosperity.
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
28. Woo hoo hoo!!!!
And the beauty of it is...he's using some of the tools of Reagan to undo the evils of Reagan. Brilliant.

K&R
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
29. Yet, Obama reminds me more of Reagan than any president since. nt
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
30. He's a transformative President like Reagan was
but he's taking the country in a completely different direction. I guess the people who still don't understand what Obama was saying probably never will.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
34. Spin. nt
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. it is spin! Leonhardt is from the Biz section and has written his share
of off the wall articles

also: curious how suddenly the ny times is such a great source for so many here, who previously bashed it :eyes:
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
42. Kick and Rec. Must read later. I knew that's why he said what he said about Reagan...
Candidate Obama didn't mean he admired what Reagan did, he wanted to emulate the fact that Reagan made great changes. :thumbsup:

Hekate
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
43. More...
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
45. Up is down- black is white and there's a sucker born every minute
Though sometimes, certain takes will still astonish.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-10 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. Up is down if our guy says it is. Winning is all that matters.
And by that I mean winning little skirmishes. The war is going badly, but we stop fighting because we just captured the town dump back from the Corporatists. Yeah. Victory. Let's have a party and all go home.

Some people have been slapped in the face so often that they don't feel it anymore. I think they would miss it.
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