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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:55 AM
Original message
Perfume banned in Detroit.
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 07:43 AM by Cetacea
edit: please indicate if you are pro/anti smoking bans in your replies if you like. Thanks


" Three Detroit city buildings will ban workers from wearing perfume, cologne, aftershave lotions and even deodorant.

This comes as a result of a settlement in a federal lawsuit.


In 2008, a city planner filed a lawsuit claiming a co-worker's perfume made it challenging for her to do her job. Susan McBride filed her lawsuit under the American with Disabilities Act, because she said he co-workers' fragrances make it hard for her to breath.

She was awarded $100,000.

"One of the things the city is going to have to figure out is how they enforce the policy they've agreed to," said attorney John Holmquist. "The city is going to have to get involved in hygiene, I'd guess you'd say, which no employer wants to get involved in."

A notice will also go in the new employee handbook and be written in the Americans with Disabilities Act training.."

http://www.clickondetroit.com/community/22845125/detail.html



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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. ...perfume, cologne, aftershave lotions and even deodorant?
This sounds almost as dumb as the bill here in New York to ban all salt from restaurant cooking.
The solution is worse than the problem...
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. No dumber than smoking bans, imo.
Chemical sensitivities are no fun.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Try living with inhalant allergies or not being able to breathe wen a perfume laced
coworker walks in a room and you have to use your inhaler to survive an attack.


Walk in our shoes before you so intelligently (?) criticize those who don't live as perfect a life as you do.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. DING DING DING! Commonist, you're our grand prize winner!
...all the people walking around with body odor and bad breath...
People have been taken off planes because they smell bad. What do we do about people who are allerigic to THOSE ordors? And would the ban include scented soap and shampoo?

:crazy:
rocktivity

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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. It's simple, really.
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 08:25 AM by Cetacea
If someone has a chemical sensitivity and it's affecting their health they can SUE employers who ignore their requests to remove the offensive chemical.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. The fact that you don't think it's insane to tell other peopel what they can and can't wear
bothers me a great deal. But hey, it's all about you and your sensative nose. You're a special person and you should be able to dictate what other people around you smell like.

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. You're probably the kind of person who thinks peanut allergies are phony too.....
And to think this is a Liberal site...........
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. So what should the solution to peanut allergies be?
So what's the end game for people with peanut allergies? What, in your end game, is taking it too far? Where should we not be allowed to serve/consume peanut products? Enclosed spaces like office buildings or schools? Should we stop serving dishes with peanuts in them in restaurants because of the threat of peanut dust? Should we just destroy peanut crops world-wide?

I'm honestly curious as to how far you think we should take the ban on peanuts to make sure people with peanut allergies are kept safe.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. Not forcing people to eat them.
Many people aren't even aware that there are protections in place at the work place. And even if they are, they probably feel weird about complaining about "smells".
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. But that's the issue, Catacea
Its not like anyone, anywhere is forcing people with peanut allergies to eat peanuts. In fact, most places I've eaten out at clearly mark allergy related things on their menus.

However, I know some schools near where I used to live in Texas have banned peanut products period, and that means peanut butter too. That is to say that NO ONE can have peanut butter at school because someone might be allergic to it and the school would rather cover it's ass.

Yeah, I think the banning of all scents at government offices is far to draconian. It puts legal precident in place to ban just about anything that people don't like. It'll only take one person saying "I don't like the smell of coffee" to complain at a government office and they can turn around and point to laws like this.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #42
59. no they don't. not at all. people complain about smells quite readily.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. Classic projection
As a special person, it's all about protecting your own selfish interests, in this case, wearing whatever kind of toxic stink you wish, no matter how it effects others around you.

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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. I Don't wear anything other than deoderant
I'm just not so sensative that I think not liking the smell of something gives me the right to tell everyone around me they can't use/wear it. But hey, you keep thinking that dictating to other people how they can and can't smell makes you a liberal.

I hope that in this case in Detroit its just a matter of management being to spineless to deal with the situation, which is all that it should have taken to resolve this issue.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #27
51. Exactly. People have the right to use and wear what
they want, but that right ends when it physically effects someone else. You do not have endless rights to do whatever you want regardless of the physical effects on others, period. It's mind-bogglingly selfish to think otherwise.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #51
86. No such rights exist in the US....you do know this, right?
People have the right to use and wear what they want, but that right ends when it physically effects someone else.

You do realize too that it isn't society's responsibility to conform to all the frailties of minuscule segments of society, no?
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #22
32. hey, you can put whatever you want on your body
as long as it stays there.

i hate these over perfumed clowns, especially the ones who think a dose of perfume is an acceptable substitute for a shower. if i had a magic wand, i would make all manufacturers of body care and cosmetic products offer an unscented version. they were not that hard to find for a while, but now it is getting tough again. just give me a damn choice. (and save the oil, etc., that goes into making these perfumes for something important.)

and yes, i love the smoking bans as well. i am so happy to be able to see live music again. and to eat out without dragging my drugs with me.

allergies and asthma are not jokes. they are not some made up hypochondria. they kill people.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. I hate them too
My argument of the several days that there have been threads on this subjet is that this should not ever need to come down to a lawsuit and making city-wide laws on personal body smells. It's a ridiculous thing for city level (or any level) policies to be made about.

We are not arguing about something that was killing someone, at least theres no evidence to support that. We are talking about a case in which one employee wore to much perfume and another wasn't happy about it. Management should have stepped in and fixed this problem long before it reached law-suit, policy making levels.

The fact of the matter is this is going to be a policy that is impossible to dictate and enforce and that it's so vague that it becomes a matter of personal taste. There is no gauge of how much is "too much" of anything. I like realtivly little salt on my food but some people like a lot. Some people have sensative noses and some don't, so this will likely turn into an enforcement fiasco, costing Detroit money that it doesn't have.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. It's not about sensitive noses.
Many people suffer from chemical intolerances and are afraid to report violations or are unaware that there are protections in place. Hopefully cases like this one will help inform and empower.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #38
45. Without going into the whole MSI issue
Again, what's the ultimate end game here Catacea? How far is far enough with bans like these? Because there's always going to be someone who wants to take it one step further.

As far as I'm concerned, it's just a further extention of authoritarian policy. Everyone wont be happy until we've banned everything.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #45
53. Are you seriously saying don't regulate anything because everything CAN be over regulated?
No rules, no laws, ever, because everything CAN be overdone?
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Nope
I don't think I suggested that.

I do think it's a very slippery slope. Like I said, it sets legal precident for banning of just about anything someone finds offensive. The legal precident on this seems to be an outright ban on scents in the workplace.

Just look at this thread. There's plenty of people here who DON'T seem to have an actual medical issue with scents so much as they "don't like them." That's fine, but we don't live in a world where we ban things because people don't like them (otherwise pretty much everything would be banned). If some at the office has a legit medical reason and becomes ill because of a scent then management should make an exception and try to ensure co-workers are aware.

If, however, we're banning things simply based on the fact that people "don't like it" then we're heading down a bad path.

As I've said - throughout this thread and ones like it - this should have been an issue management delbt with.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #32
60. There are people here who just don't get it, and WE are supposed to be sympathetic!
:eyes:


I wonder what the folks in this thread are thinking bout. Should we go back to the days when you could smoke in hospitals? Day care centers? How about being in a classroom where every pre-pubescent dork douses themselves in Axe or Old Spice every morning before coming to school. Is that healthy for the kids and teachers?
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Dupe
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 09:00 AM by NeedleCast
Dupe

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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
87. And many states have 'right to work' laws
Edited on Wed Mar-17-10 06:37 AM by pipoman
which effectively gives employers carte blanche to fire anyone for any reason without recourse for the person fired?...You will be seeing employers removing the squeaky wheel if the "requests to remove the offensive chemical" are unreasonable. Unreasonable would be, say, complaining about passive odors. It is one thing the person who bathes in wicked strong perfume, quite another the person who uses fabric softener sheets in their dryer, or common antiperspirant.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. Follow this subthread from an earlier post
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rbixby Donating Member (716 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
29. Not to take away from your allergies, but...
I think that somewhere a line needs to be drawn with these sort of things before they get out of control. I think that somewhere there might be an equal protection under law issue with this, because it affords special treatment to some people. Its definitely an issue that needs to be dealt with carefully, because I can see it going too far in either direction, where, anyone with any sort of allergy suddenly can dictate company or government policy, or that these people are just completely left behind to fend for themselves.
I'm not sure what a middle ground would be in this sort of situation, but I think that it needs to be dealt with carefully, respecting both the rights of those with the disability (or allergy, or whatever) and the individual freedoms that we all enjoy. Where does my freedom end and yours begin? It seems like these are all questions that need to be answered.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
58. I agree, however, with buildings being hermetically sealed now
anyone wearing colognes or perfume to excess can affect those of us with sever allergies, people with asthma and CLPD, its the same as banning smoking, it really is for the good of everyone. I cannot go into one of the big department stores like Macy's which has huge cologne and perfume departments because I begin to choke almost as soon as I walk through the door, and as I said previously before I was attacked by another here because of my wonderful conditions I live with, I am not alone. As we grow towards the end zone, eventually the age group affected by this will not be as numerous.
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rbixby Donating Member (716 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
30. Not to take away from your allergies, but...
I think that somewhere a line needs to be drawn with these sort of things before they get out of control. I think that somewhere there might be an equal protection under law issue with this, because it affords special treatment to some people. Its definitely an issue that needs to be dealt with carefully, because I can see it going too far in either direction, where, anyone with any sort of allergy suddenly can dictate company or government policy, or that these people are just completely left behind to fend for themselves.
I'm not sure what a middle ground would be in this sort of situation, but I think that it needs to be dealt with carefully, respecting both the rights of those with the disability (or allergy, or whatever) and the individual freedoms that we all enjoy. Where does my freedom end and yours begin? It seems like these are all questions that need to be answered.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
81. Try a gas mask. It imposes upon others less. n/t
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #81
107. I remember a saying from the Twenties that would be appropriate for you
Take the pipe......
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GoCubsGo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. There are unscented anti-persirants available
Lots of them. All deodorants do is cover up the BO. And, they smell as bad or worse than BO.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Implementation will be everything here.
There are "unscented" products, but in the end, everything has a scent. Most shampoos and soaps leave some sort of residue. Some poor HR manager is going to have to come up with a sufficiently vague term so that reason can reign. "Noticably scented" or "intentionally fragrant" or something. It means they can ban air sprays, scented oil candles, and perfumes, but still allow people to shower. If I were the boss, my rule would be something to the effect of "if I can smell you coming". i.e. if you step into my office and I can tell with my eyes closed that it's you, ya gotta stop.
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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. You ever been near one of these folks?
Who wears perfume & cologne by the quart? Who will literally make your eyes burn? Who can overpower cutting oil smoke?
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
64. I guess not
I've been near some people who I think are wearing too much cologne or perfume. Some very badly so, it just doesn't bother me that much. I realize I live in a world full of people who might like different things than I do, and accept that.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. Lousy ventilation systems make this necessary. God forbid you're able to open a window.nt
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Difficult if you are in an office cubicle.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Yes. What was life like before the cubicle?
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damyank913 Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. That's very true-new building codes are supposed to address this...
International Mechanical Code says 20 cfm per person. That's actually quite a bit of fresh air.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. Next they'll ban hair products and toothpaste
The fumes of BO and bad breath are so much better!
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. But those are "natural"
:sarcasm:
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
82. Right! It's about the lawsuits.
BTW, I'm sensitive to chemicals. But most perfumed products are so mild. And much better than B.O. no matter what some claim. They must like stinkos. LOL
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
102. You slide down slippery slopes much?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
8. Ban Axe body spray at least, that shit's awful.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. lol. true.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #8
36. tru dat.
one son was using that to cover up the smell of pot. i told him i liked the smell of pot a lot more than i liked that stuff, and that it didn't make me wheeze.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
88. Yep, I have some of that in my work filing cabinet
I used to use when I smoked...I just used a single spray with the shortest possible finger movement. I am thinking some people really spray themselves with that stuff and it would be bad for everyone around them.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
14. The article says they're trying to ban scented products, not all products. n/t
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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
15. eau du fox news should be one of them. n/t
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
18. Detroit stinks
heh
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #18
40. lol
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #18
41. lol
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
20. Detroit has enough problems as it is.
Becoming the Scent Nazis is certainly not going to help.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
28. A ban goes too far
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 09:35 AM by DirkGently
Some common sense would help here. I'm sympathetic to people sensitive to strong smells, and I've certainly witnessed co-workers / building-mates who haven't absorbed the notion of subtlety when it comes to applying fragrances, but I've also seen how quickly the notion of being "sensitive" can be used as a club to harass others (I posted a story about secretaries in my workplace transparently using this notion as way to embarrass and attack co-workers, i.e,, 'So-and-so stinks (only *I* can smell it) and it's making me ILL.')http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7920707&mesg_id=7921196

This needs to be addressed culturally, and through employee handbooks and the like, not law. EDIT: Or a building-wide ban.

I don't see it as the same as indoor smoking bans, as there is a real (if often inflated) second-hand health issue there, not to mention a certain fire issue.

Outdoor smoking bans take it too far, in my opinion. If we're going there, we need to ban loud / stupid cell phone conversations in public first. I'm thinking of you, Guy With a Windsurfer On His Shoulder, Screaming the F Word Into His Cell While Pacing Around the Orlando International Airport Check-In Counter, and you, Cool Dude Waxing About His Recent Sexcapades in a 4' x 6' elevator, and you, Business-Guy Giving Romantic Advice and Planning the Next Deal in the otherwise-hushed doctor's office waiting area.

:)
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. Common Sense does not play a role in the desires of the Ban Brigade
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #35
46. Common sense means that management would have taken care of it before it got to a lawsuit
:shrug:

I can see it getting to that point, if management refuses to do anything. I'm not "chemical sensitive" either, but have sat next to someone that wore enough perfume I was getting headaches from it.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Yup, exactly
Step one should have been the person in question asking the other "hey, can you tone it down a notch?"

Steo two (and the final step) should have been management saying "Hey, you're going to have to tone it down a notch."

Of course, in our litigious society it's just as likey that the offender in this case would have sued management I guess.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. In my own experience with this issue
If I had told my co-worker to tone it down, she probably would have told me where I could shove it. Regardless, my boss (and her boss) knew it was a problem, I mean heavens she had to walk by her office too. I don't work there anymore, so it's not an issue, but honestly my boss who I told "hey seriously I get a headache from so-and-so's over perfume" should have said something to her.

I have to say being around an over perfumer for years I did switch to unscented deoderant and rarely wear perfume now.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #52
65. As a person who's been a boss
I think the proper way would have be to eventually discipline the employe causing the problem. It sucks when managament doesn't back you up, no doubt.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
37. Can we ban woo woos who make up this Multiple Chemical Sensitivity shit?
I'm deathly allergic to woo woos.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. How about we ban really stupid words?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. You mean scientists and doctors?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. No, I mean quacks and cranks.
MCS is a controversial diagnosis and is not recognised as an organic, chemical-caused illness by the American Medical Association.<2> Blinded trials have shown that MCS patients react as often and as strongly to the exposure to the chemicals they say harm them and to placebos, including clean air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_chemical_sensitivity
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. I believe our government reconizes it as a disabling condition.
And the evidence about ciggs was once considered "controversial" as well...
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. There's clear and convincing evidence that cigarettes cause cancer.
There's clear and convincing evidence that MCS is made up bullshit.

This is as stupid as banning airplanes because some people are worried about chemtrails.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. Not comparable to a special class of victims

I don't take a stand on whether an official "condition" that makes people extra sensitive exists or not, but there is an inherent problem with making sweeping accomodations for people based on something they can assert without proof.

I think most people are sensitive to powerful smells, so no special diagnoses is necessary to ask people to be considerate.

On the other hand, I have witnessed ludicrous office drama creation by people using an unproven, subjective claim of "sensitivity" to terrorize their co-workers and management, clearly making up "smell stories" about people to exercise power.

So, one problem is objectivity. Does someone have a medical condition, or is someone claiming sensitivity to gain attention and leverage? A doctor's diagnosis ought to be enough to resolve that.

Beyond that, though, how much accomodation is reasonable and possible? If someone is truly sickened by nearly every smell or chemical residue, nowhere, including their own home, is going to be acceptable. Can we really accommodate that, and how far do we need to go to do so? Can the chemical /fragrance sensitive demand that certain foods not be eaten in their vicinity? Certain medications used?

I'm all for telling the Avon Lady and Mr. Old Spice to take it down a notch when they get out of hand. But I do not see an acceptable basis for one employee, particularly on a purely subjective basis, to dictate which odors will be permitted in the workplace.

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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #54
93. Most medical bodies do not recognize it
From the Wiki.

"Double-blinded placebo controlled trials indicate people diagnosed with MCS do not reproducibly have symptoms when exposed to chemicals. In a 1993 study, MCS subjects could not discriminate between their chemical triggers and clean air when an olfactory masker was introduced that eliminated the ability to discriminate on the basis of odor.<23> In a more recent study (2008), a variety of responses including the subjective perception of being exposed to solvents, increases in blood pressure or heart rate, or increased symptom severity were measured following the double-blinded exposure to several solvents. People with MCS diagnosis showed no differences in these parameters when they were exposed to clean air or to solvents at a concentration too low to smell.<3>. The trial did not support the hypothesis that MCS is directly related to the effects of chemical exposures. Since MCS sufferers seem to only have symptoms when they perceive exposure to chemicals, it has been proposed that the syndrome is a result of odor hypersensitivity in which individuals have an exaggerated response to scents,<4> or psychological factors."



Exactly what I thought. It's just people with over senstaive noses.

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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #93
98. But the EPA does.
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/glossary.html


And WIKI is only as good as the last updates, supplied by people like us.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #44
56. Well, if "blinded trials" show something, then we need to take their wiki-word
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #44
68. Wiki-world logic. People cough when around an unlit cigg as well.
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 06:34 PM by Cetacea
I've done the same experiment with cigarettes. Others have too. Pretend that you are smoking an unlit cigarette in public and some people will begin coughing.

Does that mean lit ones are not harmful?

Personally I believe the disorder is basically an allergy.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. If people cough when a cigarette is unlit, they're faking.
Like the kid who drinks non-alcoholic beer without knowing that it's non-alcoholic, but acts drunk anyway.

As for the wiki link, if you bother reading (I know, real stretch) it's all properly referenced and backed up by peer reviewed articles.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #76
83. You are sweet.
But your lack of impulse control regarding snark and insults is a turn off, sweetie.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #83
96. I am right.
That's more important than being sweet.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. EPA: Evidence suggests that some people may develop health problems

...characterized by effects such as dizziness, eye and throat irritation, chest tightness, and nasal congestion that appear whenever they are exposed to certain chemicals. People may react to even trace amounts of chemicals to which they have become "sensitized." (Chemical Sensitivities)


http://www.epa.gov/iaq/glossary.html


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troubledamerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #43
75. + 1
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
62. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
49. There are still jobs for people to work
at in Detroit? :shrug:
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
50. The word is BREATHE - for the love of kittens and giggles and everything good in the world! BREATHE
not breath.

You take a breath when you are able to breathe freely!

Damn.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #50
69. I shoulda done the spell check thingie on the article thing.
(sorry) :)
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
61. They should ban it in bars. People should not be forced to go to bars, sadly many are
:)
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ChickMagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
66. I have ben accosted by ladies in he elevator
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 03:55 PM by ChickMagic
who seemed to apply their perfume 6-7 times. I enjoy a very light scent, but these gobblers make me wheeze. Same with men.I told one woman at work, "you smell nice today" meaning that she didn't overdo it. She came out of office later smelling like she had rolled through a truck accident carrying her cheap fragrance. In her mind, more is better.

One girl I complimented on her fragrance said she had just used a body lotion. It was very light and didn't make me have tears running down my face. When I use body sprays, they seem to have a light fragrance.
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mstinamotorcity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
67. This is so ridiculous
Yes there are people who have reactions to strong odors.There have been cases where certain chemicals can have reactions on the brain and the nervous system.But to ban everyone from wearing hygiene products because of the fragrance that is in the product they paid their money for,to accommodate one person,may not be the brightest thing to do. The solution is to create a fragrance free work space for sensitive employees.And yes when i was younger back with the horse and buggy strong odors would send me wheezing.As I got older it didn't bother me as much. But most companies have fragrance free workspace for employees who are sensitive to those malicious odors. All that running to court is nothing but money drama, this could have been settled in a different manner.A memo could have went out explaining that they had employees who have allergies and ask everyone to have a team effort in making the work place a safer one for everybody.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
70. While I respect sensitivity
I think suing is a bit much, this could have been averted had the two involved been separated.

I am a surgical RN and we have been instructed in our facility not to wear purfumes or body sprays, I can respect that... patients don't want to smell my chanel no. 5. Teh nature of my job forces me to do that.
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. They'd have to pry my Chanel from my cold dead hands ....
Oh, wait a minute ...

It is an unfortunate situation ... that probably should have been avoided. The city of detroit (for whatever reason) does not see the need to avoid lawsuits :(
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
71. Glad to see that dysfunctional city has its priorities straight
I guess the public schools with 15% graduation rates can wait.
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That Is Quite Enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
73. Wowwww
I don't even know what to say.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
74. Excellent news! The more discrimination, the better.
Next up.....everyone else. Just wait...you'll all get yours sooner or later (those of you who support this). You cannot advocate discrimination against a few select groups and not expect it to come around and bite you in the ass eventually. Personally, I can't wait until that happens. Then we'll all finally be equal. woohoo. I'm allergic to the fumes your cars spew and I want them taken away from you. I can't breathe.

Perhaps this Ms. Allergic-to-Perfume could have found a new job where she could isolate herself?? Naaaaah! What the hell....inconvenience the entire workforce at your workplace instead (and make an extra $100,000 while you're at it). That makes so much more sense. I just love the Big Brother support I see here. :banghead:

This will never end until YOUR rights are gone. Just remember that. Every time I come back here to DU, things are worse than before. Now DUers support more discrimination. Unfreakiningbelievable.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
77. Considering how bad elevators smell in my building...Good.
People have no fucking taste, period. The doors open and voila! You are now in a French whorehouse circa 1927. Yeah! Or better yet a guy wears this absolutely shitty cologne that makes everyone run for cover. It reeks, and cost him money to boot.

It is obnoxious and annoying. Maybe I should just start wearing skunk piss to make my point?

Ignorant assholes.
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
78. I've spent a great deal of my life in Detroit.
Trust me when I say the overuse of perfume is the least of it's worries.

How do they plan on enforcing this, I wonder?

What I do know is that banning deodorant is never the way to go, ever.

Absolutely and undeniably ridiculous.

It's called living in society, a theoretically free society. Sometimes you might see or smell something you don't like. Tough shit, that's life.

Funny, a year or so ago I mentioned something about banning fragrances on a smoking thread. I swear, I don't know how The Onion keeps going. Real life keeps one-upping it.

My new prediction - banning cooking in an apartment complex. Someone will complain about their neighbor's cooking smells, claiming it aggravates whateverthefuck. They'll sue, they'll get some monetary compensation for having to endure such horrors, and they will ban cooking in the complex. Salads and sandwiches only. Well, no peanut butter though... someone on the 5th floor has a peanut allergy.

Wait for it.


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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #78
99. Okay...
I just have to say....I like you and the way you think. :) Spot on! Every damn word.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
79. 99% of people who complain about this are just complainers
They have no physical reaction to it. They have a mental reaction because they are accustomed to bitching and moaning. I smell bad perfume all the time, and I think "man that bad perfume stinks". Others say "oh my god that is air pollution and I am so sensitive, I should sue it's killing me!"

People need to complain less.

There is NO FARKING WAY that anybody has a true physical allergic reaction to my speedstick deodorant.
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greenbird Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #79
85. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Trust me. There is a great deal of scientific evidence supporting extreme sensitivity to smells, lights, etc. I am not a bitcher or a moaner, I'm actually quite a good sport, not a whiner at all. I enjoy unusually good health for my age. I have also ended up in the hospital ER after finding myself unable to get away from strong perfume smells, or body odor, soon enough. Do your homework, then get back to me. I promise you, if you look into this honestly and with an open mind, you'll change it.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #85
90. In the ER?
I have also ended up in the hospital ER after finding myself unable to get away from strong perfume smells, or body odor, soon enough.

For body odor? What does the ER do for you? How do you propose to fix this? Outlaw deodorant AND body odor? Jeezuz, you must be kidding?
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greenbird Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. No, I wasn't suggestion outlawing it. I actually don't believe in that.
I was referring to your contention that people with extreme sensitivity to smells are faking it. Yes, I end up in the ER with a migraine. ER gives me drugs that take away the migraine. Unless you've been there, you really can't know. Like I say, 99% of the time I'm about the healthiest person I know. I'm not alone in this, either. My proposal to fix it is to get away from it whenever I can, not outlaw it.

And no, I'm not kidding!
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Caretha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #91
106. I've had severe migraines
my whole life and have never ended up in the ER. In fact I take prescribed drugs to prevent them when possible. That's what reasonable people do, they don't run to the ER with a chronic problem if it's controllable.
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greenbird Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. Dear Caretha:
I'm a very reasonable person. I get different "grades" of migraines. Some send me to the hospital. Most are controllable, as you suggest, with prescribed drugs. I was using my ER migraine experiences to illustrate how quickly and severely strong odors can affect some people. I've had migraines for over 35 years. I'm glad you've never ended up in the ER. Many people don't get migraines quite that severe. I hope you never do.
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Caretha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Dear Greenbird
As I pointed out to you in my post, I have had very severe migraines and continue to have them unfortunately, and have had them for 46 years. I take medication for them and am pretty good at predicting when one is coming on now, and can usually stop it in time with medication. My mother tells me that her mother also had them and the doctor would come to their house and give her a shot that would knock her out for about 24 hours or so.

I do believe that people have different levels of pain tolerance.

I just don't understand how different odors can trigger them. In all my years of personnaly dealing with migraines, and discussing it with others who have migraines, and talking with doctors, nurses etc. have never heard of that. I must add that doctors I've consulted with have never suggested such a thing to me.
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greenbird Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. Actually, odors are chemicals.
Even good ones are. Basically, it's just a reaction to a chemical. Certain odors are triggers for me. So are bright flashing lights, like fireworks. I've run across several accounts of other migraine sufferers having the same experiences. Since you're a fellow migraineur, I bet you understand how difficult it is to put up with people's preconceived notions about why people get them. If you've been getting them for 46 years, I'm sure you've heard more than once that "it's all in your head".

Really, I would have no reason whatsoever to make this up. I'm too interested in living a healthy life, and enjoying it, to waste one single minute on hypochondria.

At any rate, as I said before, most of the time I can catch them in time, just like you do.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #85
92. I don't see any in any real scientific journals..
do you have a link?
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #85
94. Yes, He Does
Contrary to what you think, there's actually loads of medical evidence that suggests that you're wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_chemical_sensitivity
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greenbird Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. Hmmm, Wikipedia, or my own body? Who should I believe?
I'm working now, but will get links later.

Just to be clear, I am not arguing for outlawing of perfumes and scented deodorants. I agree that that is a slippery slope. I am taking issue with people who claim that highly sensitive people (20% of the population), whose sensory-processing areas of the brain actually show up differently on bran scans, are faking it. Or being hypochondriacs. Or whatever.

I'm sure that you can find something in your life that is similar. Something that you know to be true, but that doesn't find a wide acceptance. All I am asking is to consider that you may be wrong, and try a little compassion. That's all!
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. Your own body (and the EPA). Not the corporate body.
As well as your own body and millions of other people's bodies.

Many of the problems that the EPA lists can be tied into this whole issue.
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greenbird Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #100
105. THANK you.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
80. Why do these people have to impose upon others?

95% of people have no problems. Can't they wear a gas mask, or are they soooooooooooooo special that their rights trump mine?

Bullshit.bullshit.bullshit.

If that happened at my place of work, I wouldn't shower for 3 days. I can't stand myself at that point. How would you like me? Better with a little perfume I bet.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #80
103. Don't they have unscented anti-perspirants where you live?
I've got my choice of dozens of brands. I prefer Mitchem Sensitive Skin Unscented Clear Gel. Generally any soap and shampoo that doesn't make a big thing out of their scent, it's worn off by the time the shower's over, but unscented versions are available.

I asked a friend of mine, married for 45 years, why he wore heavy cologne. His answer, "everybody wears cologne". He was shocked to discover that many people don't.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
84. That was the absolute norm for my analytical chemistry lab
The volatile organics analysts wouldn't have been able to get valid results otherwise.
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
89. So if I wear aftershave to the Coleman Young building ...
... then they'll have to excuse me from jury duty in that building? Sweet!

And what will they do about second-hand perfume? I've sat next to some generously-fragranced woman on the bus to work, and smelled suspiciously good all day afterwards.

I wish them well with this rule, but doubt it'll stick.

:hi:

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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #89
109. Yeah
I spend a lot of time (only a slight exaggeration) in the city's municipal offices ... I kinda thought folk could use a little more cologne ;)
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
101. Good. I was in a health clinic yesterday and just about had to bolt
Some lady came in wearing enough perfume to start her own petrochemical company and put me into respiratory distress.

If people were willing to be reasonable about it, zero tolerance wouldn't be necessary, but she's the kind of person who would exclaim "I only put on a bit", meaning half the bottle instead of emptying the thing over her head.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
104. Seems excessive, but then so is the way some people wear perfume
I'm sensitive to it myself so I can sympathize. I had a coworker who sprayed some sort of aerosol crap 10 times a day that would make my throat constrict and my lungs scream for mercy. When I politely asked her to not do that in the office she got all nasty with me.
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