Got to love the American idea of equality.

[RB TexLa]

If your child speaks English they have a right to be taught in the language they speak. If your child speaks Spanish they don't have a right to be taught the language they speak. Guess we tell them that some children are just a little more equal and a little more deserving of an education.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catshrink]

2. Wow. Are you in the right place?

[bluestateguy]

3. People need to learn English

and they need to be made to understand that life in America will be very hard for them if they don't.

I just got through dealing with some dingbat customer service rep on the phone who didn't speak English.

[EFerrari]

8. How did you decide the customer was a "dingbat"?

[bluestateguy]

13. Don't try to do the relativism thing with me

That won't work.

Case closed.

[EFerrari]

16. So, how did you decide that customer was a dingbat?

[GiveMeFreedom]

21. Customer "SERVICE REP",

Not a customer.

Corrected for bad English and Stupidity on my part.

[EFerrari]

23. Was this a conference call, GiveMeFreedom?

[GiveMeFreedom]

25. Hi,

You say customer, he says customer service rep. That's all.

[EFerrari]

27. Is that a no?

[Flaneur]

37. I think you mean "Mind closed."

[Go2Peace]

39. No, I think it is the other way around. Is this about the children

or about power? Because if it is about the children this approach is only hurting them and not solving the issue. Read my posts. My family is multi-lingual and multi-national and I can talk from experience.

[Go2Peace]

38. Further down the thread I explain why the whole approach advocated here misses the mark

Children's brains are wired to learn language efficiently. The primary reason that they don't is because their PARENTS isolate them from the english speaking community. The LAST thing we want to do is make it easier for them to avoid english, and we already have plenty of programs to assist them.

The entire dialog of language integration is filled with poor science and special interests and avoids some of the real problems and things that could otherwise be done within the international community.

[EFerrari]

46. I hope you have an overflow container.

And I say that as a Latina whose single mother had no time to crush my English language acquisition or to prevent me from being in class of 17 in Graduate English at Cal or to block my PBK membership while I studied English. I guess she was just not trying hard enough!

"What a piece of work is man."

:rofl:

[Go2Peace]

47. Pull out the insults. Sure, that makes your case

I might take your points more seriously if you were more modest about your point of view. You are making the case that my opinion is invalid because your experience is superior.

[EFerrari]

53. So, anyone that doesn't fit your stereotyped view is invalid?

What a surprise.

[Go2Peace]

68. whatever

If you bothered to actually read my posts here you might find we are actually much closer in views. I am you **ally* friend. Unlike many Americans I understand the value of teaching multiple languages and aiding people who struggle with english to get acclimated. I just entirely reject expanding an approach to a problem with the immigrant community not embracing the primary language and turning it into a cultural war.

I am not against more integration of other languages into society. As I posted elsewhere in this topic I am a PROPONENT (unlike most Americans).

You are treating me like an "enemy" when all I am doing is trying to help steer the discussion away from political hubris and get down to what is really happening with the struggles of non-english speaking children in our society. Sorry. Otherwise you might find I am far more of a friendly than you have built up in your imagination.

[Go2Peace]

19. I agree, as a MULTILINGUAL household, we have plenty of programs to deal with this

I married into a multilingual family and I have been incredibly surpised at all the educational resources that are available. There is simply no excuse for anyone other than an eldely person or someone who has a serious language learning disability not to learn english in the US.

Check out your local institutions, you will find they have inexpensive and often free "english as a second language" classes. And that is only one particular program. Elementary schools and secondary schools all have many programs to deal with this issue. I am not sure that it is possible to do more than we are already doing.

I also know and have friends that have lived here for 10 years and never learned english. They simply have no interest in integrating into the greater society around them. I can't begin to related all the challenges this makes for our society. They end up not understanding our laws and regulations and they skirt around many of the rules, many which we have for good reasons. Don't get me wrong, these are not *bad* people like the Republicans like to view them, but if our system does not *require* them to integrate these communities simply won't do it.

[EFerrari]

22. And when you go to those local institutions you will find

that they all have waiting lists because no one is "refusing" to learn English. Good grief, sometimes DU sounds exactly like Lou Dobbs. :crazy:

[Go2Peace]

28. I have NEVER seen a "waiting list".

I don't believe it, sorry. Even in my wife's country of origin incredibly poor people manage to pay to learn english.

Like I have said, I am surrounded by the immigrant community. I have more friends who are non-native speakers than native citizens. Almost without exception, the people I know who do not speak english or speak it poorly simply don't want to put the energy into it. Sorry of that does not fit into the "politically correct" view. But I have some credentials and serious experience in this matter.

Sorry, I am not trying to argue, this is just one area I was pleasantly surprised by and I think we deserve a lot of credit for.

I should add, I have seen a wait for a couple of months for a new group of classes to begin, as every level of every class did not always start each quarter. But that was only one program and my family members were always able to find other (usually free or cheap) resources.

[EFerrari]

29. Maybe you should go check before you decide to resort to name calling.

[Go2Peace]

30. Your determined to argue and I did not "name call"

no use arguing with you further. People can read my posts and credentials. I think my experience speaks for itself. Maybe there are some problems with the system in places but there are incredible resources available and any immigrant without a disability that doesn't learn english is doing so BY CHOICE.

[EFerrari]

33. Delete. Wrong place.

\

[virgogal]

4. I have a close friend who was born in Finland. He speaks perfect,

unaccented English because when he came to this country as a 7 year old he was taught in English.

There's something wrong with that?

[EFerrari]

14. Yes, there is. Not addressing the huge number of children in this country

who start school knowing only Spanish is stupid. It's a waste of the school's time and the children's time.

When I entered school, I already was reading and writing in Spanish. But because back then there was nothing like bi-lingual education, nobody knew or asked. They assumed I was just slow, not making a transition between two languages. It was a stupid waste of about two years where I navigated what these people wanted from me at age 6.

Forcing so many children to make that transition with no support or guidance, with no capitalizing on the skills they already bring to school is idiotic.

[Go2Peace]

31. How exactly can *any* child not experience a "transition" when entering

another culture with a different language. You seem to want to place demands on the "system" that it can never resolve. Immigrating to a country that speaks a different language is going to require adjustment.

Man, you should travel more. In most countries you are completely on your own to "adjust and learn". I am incredibly PROUD of our programs and how seriously we take this issue.

If they started to dismantle it I would be all aboard, because like you I think it is essential. But you sound like you just want to argue and expect our country to try to do the impossible.

[EFerrari]

34. Where did I say that children can be prevented from experiencing a transition?

What I'm saying is that it is stupid not to build on the skills they already have.

And, you have no idea how well traveled I am, do you?

[Luminous Animal]

62. "In most countries you are completely on your own to "adjust and learn""

Really? You might want to back that up.


"Do other countries do bilingual education? Yes, they do."
http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/linguistics/people/grads/macswan/UW-euro.htm

[Go2Peace]

66. Bilingual education is a completely different thing

In Russia, children are taught either Russian and English, or Russian and German (primarily). That is quite different than if I move to Russia and cannot speak Russian. They are completely different subjects.

That is why we have entire curriculums setup to teach immigrants english in the US. That component is *not* nearly available in other countries. You are on your own and it is up to the immigrant family to learn the language.

I appreciate that we recognize this issue. From the comments of some on this board you would think we do very little to help immigrants adjust. In fact we do more than most any other nation. The trouble is, and I know I will get clobbered for this, but being part of the immigrant community I see it first hand.... The immigrant community doesn't want to take their part of this reponsability on. They want us to throw on more programs when the biggest barrier can only be resolved through PARENTING.

Now, if folks here would push for a program to reach out to immigrant communities to teach families how important it is not to isolate their kids and engage them more as parents in learning english, I would be all for that, because *that* would actually be what would help these children!

[Luminous Animal]

67. You didn't read the link.

The bilingual education targets the children of the immigrant communities in various countries often transitioning from native language instruction to the dominant language over several years.

In Norway, it is Turkish, Urdu, and Vietnamese; the Netherlands, Turkish. Also, served are the children of indigenous communities such as the Maori in New Zealand.

[Go2Peace]

69. I didn't, you were right. I stand corrected. Interesting link!

[Luminous Animal]

70. Thank you for your honesty! I really appreciate it.

[quinnox]

5. I agree with the previous answers

You should learn English to be in this country. And I often disagree with BlueStateguy but he is right on this one.

If you don't know English life is going to suck for you in this country unless you are already wealthy.

[Go2Peace]

32. Actually, life does not "suck" if you don't know english here.

Immigrants support their own and have their own communities. I have many friends that never leave their own community and are not integrated into the english speaking society. This downturn has been unusually harsh, but before this downturn I used to be amazed at the network of opportunities that immigrants made available for each other. Anyone who wanted to work always found opportunity to work. Now, often it could be "under the table". Taxes are not always paid correctly, and because of the way this system works they do not always participate nor understand the purpose of some of our laws. And that is a problem.

[misanthrope]

6. And if you move to Istanbul, is your child taught in English?...

...How is this any different than the stereotype of the arrogant Ugly American expecting to sail through other nations with everyone accommodating them by speaking to them in English?

[RB TexLa]

7. Move? You honestly think the only people in the US that speak Spanish moved here

from somewhere else? Try getting out and meeting people.

[Electric Monk]

42. It's so easy to forget about the indigenous Spanish speaking Americans, isn't it

Spain is thataway, as are England and France -->

[misanthrope]

74. The people I meet speak English, even as a second language...

...and they are from all over the globe, not just the Western Hemisphere.

[gateley]

9. Agree that it would be better for the kids if they learn English -- make

it easier for them if they're going to stay here. If I lived in another country I would have my kids learn that language -- and I'd learn it myself.

[Go2Peace]

36. we do, we make it INCREDIBLY easy

This whole topic is filled with misconceptions. A childs mind is oriented naturally to picking up language. The *primary* thing that keeps them from learning the language is ISOLATION! Not EDUCATION. The PARENTS isolate the child and keep them away from the english speaking community. That is what leads to this difficulty.

(In most cases, not all) The LAST thing you want to do in a primarly english speaking society is to allow a child to continue to avoid english by placing them in an class where they teach in another language. That just further isolates them and actually KEEPS them from learning.

[gateley]

57. It doesn't seem fair to the child -- and I didn't know that about the

parents isolating their kids. Why? It almost seems cruel.

[Go2Peace]

71. It's not cruel, it's maybe a touch ignorant, but mostly is is about education

It's kind of natural. It's very difficult for adults to learn a new language and immigrant communities are very close and it is a natural thing that they will often isolate from the culture at large. Language is definitely a cultural barrier. We all tend to hang with people who can understand us. Immigrants often don't let go of their first culture. It takes generations before most feel themselves at home with their new environment. So most non-english speaking children have parents that do not speak english at home, and their family spends most of their time with others from their intial culture and they all speak in their native language.

There is clear scientific evidence that exposure is a serious learning tool, children's minds are extremely pliable to language when they are the youngest in particular. I do not have studies to back this up, but I also believe that when a child gets teaching in another language, but then returns home and that language is not used, that actually inhibits their learning in multiple ways.

I grew up in a family where my Dad spoke a second language, but he never taught me it. I call it what it was: Ignorance. Many Multi-cultural families have english skills, but they do not apply those skills at home. That is a PARENTING issue and an issue with ignorance also.

We already have lots of progams to approach childen who struggle with english in the schools. But we completely, ignore the PARENTING issue, which is a very innefficient way to deal with it, and I believe the primary reason that children fall thorugh the cracks.

The folks fighting me on this topic misunderstand my intent. I am simply arguing the approach. It needs to be reality based, instead of caught up in cultural war rhetoric.

[EFerrari]

58. You've posted this over and over. Please prove that parents isolate their children

from English language acquisition.

I know you can't because it's not true. But do your best to try.

[Go2Peace]

72. Come on.

You are ignoring cognitive science. Children learn much of their language skills through observation. Growing children learn most of their language at home, not in the classroom.

We can argue chicken/egg all day, but you cannot ignore the role of the home. You want to make the answer that the "State" has to take all responsability. Fine, if that will actually solve the issue, but it won't.

EF, you are being a little stubborn. We both know that the fact that the child enters the system with poor english skills for it's age that is because english is not being used at home. That is just a plain FACT. If their parents were integrated into the english speaking community this just plain would not happen.

I am just arguing for a FACT based approach. *You* are the one who is trying to argue emotionally. You seem invested in blaming everything on the "State". Believe me, I think we, as a country, do a *lot* of things wrong, and am quite critical of many of the inneficiencies of our system. I just honestly can't understand the logic of the argument you are proposing. I think it missed half the problem. I am not arguing for arguement's sake.

[Go2Peace]

73. Children living in linguistically isolated households by children in immigrant families

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/acrossstates/Rankings.aspx?ind=129

[EFerrari]

75. That data doesn't show that parents isolate their children. n/t

[Abq_Sarah]

10. Kids need to become fluent

In the dominant language of whatever country they live in. You want to give them every advantage possible to be able to function in that society as an adult.

[RB TexLa]

11. By not teaching in the second most dominant language you are not giving it a chance to become the

dominant language. If the second most dominant language is growing faster than the first, you have to adjust for that.

[Abq_Sarah]

12. Well,

By not teaching the Tewa language, we're not giving it a chance to become the dominant language of the USA either.

[RB TexLa]

15. Is it growing faster than English? With a significant group of citizens using it on a daily basis?

[EFerrari]

17. More immediately, kids who speak Spanish have already tapped into grammar.

They have learned a pattern. That skill can be easily used to learn English -- unless you ignore that skill.

[Abq_Sarah]

18. So, your idea

Is to ignore the language spoken by the vast majority of people in this country in favor of a language that will never be the dominant language in most states outside of the southwest?

If I move to a different country, I'm going to learn how to speak the dominant language.

[RB TexLa]

20. I didn't say the right of English speaking Americans to be taught in English should be removed

just Spanish speaking Americans deserve the same right. You do know there are American citizens who speak Spanish that did not move here from anywhere, right?

[murielm99]

24. There are some countries that have more than one official

language. Switzerland has four. Luxembourg has three. It doesn't seem to be any big deal for people to accept and learn more than one language.

Early in our history, German almost became our official language.

Our country does not have a law that makes English the official language. I don't care one way or the other about that.

Since Hispanics are our largest growing population, maybe it would be a good idea for us to be more accepting of Spanish/English bilingualism. FWIW, my daughter is fluent in Spanish. Because of her language skills, she never has trouble finding a good paying job.

My father grew up bilingual. He speaks German and English. His parents, and most of the farmers in their area, insisted that their children learn English. They wanted them to fit into the dominant culture.

I think our country may change its attitude over the next fifty years. Spanish/English bilingualism may become more common and acceptable.

I am not taking issue with your post. So many people seem suspicious of bilingual people. Even educated people seem to have a fear or disrespect of Hispanics when they hear them speaking Spanish together. We need to grow up and acknowledge our changing society.

[EFerrari]

26. All of the territories ceded under Guadalupe-Hidalgo,

which is CA, TX, NM, AZ (roughly), are by treaty supposed to have Spanish and English as co-equal.

[Go2Peace]

35. Two points:

1. That transition is already happening. Spanish is becoming the second language in the US.
2. It is generally the PARENTS fault when children do not learn english. As I mentioned my family members are not primary english speakers and my primary circle is with people who do not speak english natively.

We act like children are ADULTS. Let's get some science down here. It has been proven scientifically that children's minds are oriented to learning language constructs. They learn language extremely fast. If they do not have a developmental issue they *will learn* english, unless their PARENTS isolate them and seperate them from english speaking peers.

We should provide the best opportunities to learn english, but this is really not at the core a US education problem. It is a parenting DEFICIT and adult DEFICIT.

http://www.lsadc.org/info/ling-faqs-lang_acq.cfm

[EFerrari]

44. Oh, brother.

Speaking of science, Spanish came to this continent and to what is now the US before English did.

And scapegoating PARENTS is no part of science.

[cherokeeprogressive]

40. Then they have the right to be taught in WHATEVER language is their first.

No matter what dialect, no matter what language, and no matter how large or small their percentage of the whole school district is.

Right?

[Go2Peace]

49. Right, my family speaks Russian. They should get their classes in Russian?

I would consider it unconscionable if I did not do my *own* work at home to educate my daughter and expose her to the english language. It is not "society's" responsibility, it is simply a fact of life. If my family member does not have a disability and was not bilingual (as my family members are), I would consider it *my* problem, not the "states". There is an incredible sense of entitlement in the idea floated here, even worse, it evades responsability within the immigrant community and allows PARENTS to justify their lack of PARENTING in this area.

[anonymous171]

41. When I go to Mexico I always expect everyone to speak english.

[RB TexLa]

43. Not every citizen of this country that speaks Spanish came here from somewhere else.

You really think people in the US that speak Spanish all came here from somewhere else?

[cherokeeprogressive]

48. How do you justify limiting it only to Spanish?

Shouldn't EVERY person living here be granted the same right to instruction in their native tongue?

[RB TexLa]

50. I haven't. Spanish is the language that will require new schools being built.

Most other languages should be able to be accommodated within English language schools. I'm sure we'd have to build language specific schools other than Spanish in different areas.

[cherokeeprogressive]

52. Ever been to Westminster, Cerritos, or Artesia? These are cities in So. Cal.

There is such a diverse demographic in my part of So. Cal. that you cannot make the claim that Spanish is the "only" anything.

There is a sign on the side of the 22 freeway that identifies the area as "Little Saigon".

[RB TexLa]

54. So you just ignore that I typed the following?

"I'm sure we'd have to build language specific schools other than Spanish in different areas."

[anonymous171]

51. No...

And I don't think that I ever said that. English is the dominant language in America. Spanish is the dominant language in Mexico. Does the Mexican government have a responsibility to adapt their system for my linguistic needs if I choose to live there?

[Go2Peace]

60. You would have a better point if we were not already spending significant resources

Should Spanish be adopted as an "official" language? Possibly. But that is a decision that Democracy should handle, not interest groups.

You have no idea how close our views may be. I just don't go for the idea that the problem with immigrants not speaking english is related to not teaching in Spanish. That is simply not scientific and completely ignores the PRIMARY reason that children struggle with their english skills.

I know you obviously care deeply about this. But if what is really important is the problem of Children getting integrated into society and learning english, then we should be working with the immigrant community to educate Parents about the importance of doing **their** part and not isolating themselves from the english speaking community?

You can say it as often as you want, but I see it every day. The primary reason non-english speakers and their families struggle is their own choices. The system is not perfect but the US is quite engaged and has lots of resources to deal with this.

This has been a very enlightening conversation. I think what folks really fighting for here is establishing a second language in the US(a single language, this is all about the rights of Spanish speakers and EXCLUDES consideration of the problems of other minorities). That is quite a diffent discussion than problems with learning english language. They should be discussed seperately if the purpose is to resolve that issue.

[etherealtruth]

45. I do think its a good idea for folk to learn English ...

It makes the best sense to teach these children in their first language and offer english as an intensive second language.

I think the idea should be the same for English speaking students, as well .... teach them in their first language and offer spanish as an intensive second language ....and start the process immediately!

[murielm99]

55. This is a great idea.

But we parents may need to do it on our own. School programs and teachers are being cut left and right.

I made sure my children had a music education beyond what was taught in school here. I made sure they were read to every day. When they were older, we read adult books and plays together. They were not getting everything they needed in school. Since my son was primarily a nonfiction reader, I had to tailor the home reading program to his needs. I probably learned as much as he did.

We did not have money. I did this on a tight budget. There may be ways to teach kids Spanish or another foreign language without giving them private lessons. I did not think of it when mine were growing up. I did have one who learned foreign languages very easily.

Yes, people need to learn English. But why shouldn't the rest of us learn Spanish?

[etherealtruth]

59. I know

I am really unhappy that my former husband never taught our children any of the languages he is fluent in. sadly, I am fluent in English only.

My daughter attended a really terrific private pre-school in Delaware and was conversant in Spanish before she attended the first grade.

[EFerrari]

56. If I had a magic wand, we'd use these kids' intuition of grammar

and float their flexibility to more languages. It would be so easy to do. :)

[etherealtruth]

61. It would ....children learn with so much more ease

and are so much less self conscious. It is so sad that people in the US are mono-lingual (generally speaking) and proud of it.

[EFerrari]

63. This looking at Spanish (or any other first language)

as some kind of drawback is just dumb. A child that has learned any language has a platform to build on.

But, we've seen a massive attack on education in this country so, it's not very surprising.

[etherealtruth]

65. I think our collective culture embraces "anti-intellectualism"

... and is proud of it .... makes me want to vomit.

How anyone can find bi/multi lingualism to be a "bad" thing is beyond me.

[Go2Peace]

64. That I totally agree with

We don't place enough emphasis on learning other languages. The world greatly benefits when people learn multiple languages and engage multiple cultures. Most other countries require children learn multiple languages. And I agree, the more languages you know the easier it is to learn additional languages throughtout one's life.

[Dappleganger]

76. This is America.

Kids need to speak English to get along in this country. Kids are smart and can do this. There have been bilingual kids here since the beginning and they managed just fine, why has this suddenly become a problem? I'm not for a mandated language but there MUST be some continuity in order to make the best use of all teaching resources. Most schools have bilingual teachers to help in areas with high concentration of Latinos.