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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:40 PM
Original message
Obama wrong, Weingarten right
It puzzles me why President Obama yesterday chose to endorse the firing of 93 teachers and other staff members at Central Falls High School in Rhode Island, as reported by my colleagues Michael A. Fletcher and Nick Anderson. Dismissing every member of the staff was overkill, and unnecessary. The president knows that, but I guess decided that he had to show some of that toughness a lot of people say he needs.

I am not one of those people. The president seems quite clear and right to me on nearly all educational issues. But in this case I have to endorse the statement released by American Federation of Teachers President Randi Weingarten, along with other union leaders, that his statement is scoring "political points by scapegoating teachers" and "does nothing to give our students and teachers the tools they need to succeed."

When schools are as bad as Central Falls High, with only 7 percent of juniors passing state math tests, I am in favor of getting rid of the principal and other school leaders, but firing all of the teachers doesn't make sense. The math teachers may have been bad, but what about the English or history teachers? What of the counselors and coaches?

The smart thing to do is what has been done in cities across the country, including D.C. Instead of announcing all teachers are fired, you announce that all teachers must reapply for their jobs. I have visited many low-performing schools, but have yet to find one that didn't have at least one or two teachers having success with their students. If the president is going to support more money for teachers who succeed in raising student achievement, then he should also favor keeping such teachers even when they are working at schools that up to now have been unworthy of them. As the president is passing out money for educational innovation, he doesn't want to leave the impression that a meat cleaver is his favorite tool.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/class-struggle/2010/03/weingarten_right_obama_wrong.html
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. You ONLY invite them to re-apply when you're NOT trying to bust a Union...n/t
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. What were the scores on the other parts of the test?
7% oassing is inexcusable! But you don't say anything about the scores in the other areas. What if they're ALL BAD? It's the job of the Teachers Union guy to support the teachers, but I've seen BIG differences in teaching abilities in both private & public schools. I've seen it with my own grandchildren. Unfortunately, some people simply look at that job of a teacher is just a job to collect a paycheck and it's not!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Please explain to me how the Art teacher impacted Math scores
or the English teacher. Or the counselor.

Then tell me how easy you think it is to teach Math to a kid who doesn't speak English. Or is homeless. Or whose parents are being deported. Or are already in jail.

I'll wait.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Please tak minute s article on CNN. Tthe achers will be allowd to
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. And only 50% will be rehired
Now if you trust these same administrators who fired these teachers to hire new ones who will magically waltz in and make this school better you are dreaming.
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. They can rehire NONE if they so choose. 50% is the maximum.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Yes that is correct
Thanks
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Here are the official stats
808 -- Number of students

74 -- Number of teachers

96% -- Students in poverty

47.7% -- Graduation rate

55% -- Proficient in reading

7% -- Proficient in math

Sources: Central Falls HS Web site;

R.I. Dept. of Education

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_teachers_02-10-10_INHDDCD_v28.3b40f6e.html

That's a very good student-teacher ratio: 10.9 students per teacher. It would seem one could do better than 55% in reading and 7% in math with those kinds of conditions, but we're dealing with a lot of poverty and a fairly significant non-native speaker population. The graduation rate is also abysmal. This is not all the teacher's fault. However, these statistics triggered state/federal law, and the results were inevitable.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. State/federal law do not mandate mass firings
State law provides for tenure, which was ignored in this mass firing.

Federal law says schools are reconstituted, after 6 years of failed improvement efforts. This school had just started a new improvement plan in October. That's not 6 years. Also reconstitution does not mean firing.

The superintendent lost her temper and fired everyone. I don't think that is in state or federal law though.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Yes they do
A new federal requirement mandates that states must identify their lowest-performing 5 percent of schools and fix them by using one of four methods: school closure; takeover by a charter or school-management organization; transformation; or “turnaround” which requires the entire school staff be fired and not more than half be rehired in the fall.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_letters_02-19-10_2DHGHET_v36.3a65dd5.html

You are losing credibility every time you say something that isn't true.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. That's the first time I have heard of this new requirement
Please don't attack my credibility. I'll be glad to have a discussion if you refrain from being insulting.

I'll wait to find out if this is accurate. As I said, it's new to me.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. It puts the whole situation in a new light
I've been trying to figure this whole thing out, and I only can do it by continuing to read. I don't want to attack your credibiity. But you have to admit, you've been attacking mine. I'm just trying to defend myself on the basis of the few facts I've been able to read. It could be this article from the Providence Journal is wrong. But I know for sure that it was the state that required the Central Falls district to choose one of these plans. It's a complex situation.

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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. They will reapply
But no more than 50% can be rehired. Under state/federal law, there were four choices:

•Close the school.

•Replace the principal, increase learning time and change instruction.

•Hire a charter school or outside management company to run the school.

•Replace the principal and rehire no more than 50 percent of the staff.

The second option was chosen (replacing the principal and changing the learning time and instruction model). Union negotiations over compensation for the increased learning time broke down by the deadline. So the fourth option was taken. This wasn't a choice (except perhaps the length of negotiations, I don't know). Would you prefer they had closed the school or hired outside management?

There's a lot of misinformation about this floating around. The only thing to question, however, is what happened with negotiations on pay. No one really knows the answer to that.

See details in the Providence Journal:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_teachers_02-10-10_INHDDCD_v28.3b40f6e.html
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I would prefer they exercised some common sense
I would also prefer you correct your own misinformation. The superintendent walked out of the third negotiation session and then fired all the teachers. That's not good faith negotiations.
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mariawr Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. This happened in our school district years ago....
we had several schools (JCPS, Lou.,KY)that were not meeting goals. After providing the schools with additional funds, extra help, and other measures to assist the schools, the schools were "reconstituted"----all the teachers and administrators were overstaffed and had to reapply and be approved in order to teach at that school. New teachers and administrators were brought in to "turn things around."

it was not an easy transition, lawsuits were filed. But the schools did improve.

Just sayin'
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. They did it in my district too
And it didn't make a damn bit of difference.
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Omaha Steve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. Weingarten Rights


http://clear.uhwo.hawaii.edu/wein.html

EMPLOYEE'S RIGHT TO UNION REPRESENTATION

The right of employees to have union representation at investigatory interviews was announced by the U.S. Supreme Court in a 1975 case (NLRB vs. Weingarten, Inc. 420 U.S. 251, 88 LRRM 2689). These rights have become known as the Weingarten rights.

Employees have Weingarten rights only during investigatory interviews. An investigatory interview occurs when a supervisor questions an employee to obtain information which could be used as a basis for discipline or asks an employee to defend his or her conduct.

If an employee has a reasonable belief that discipline or other adverse consequences may result from what he or she says, the employee has the right to request union representation. Management is not required to inform the employee of his/her Weingarten rights; it is the employees responsibility to know and request.

When the employee makes the request for a union representative to be present management has three options:
(I) it can stop questioning until the representative arrives.
(2) it can call off the interview or,
(3) it can tell the employee that it will call off the interview unless the employee voluntarily gives up his/her rights to a union representative (an option the emplovee should always refuse.)

Employers will often assert that the only role of a union representative in an investigatory interview is to observe the discussion. The Supreme Court, however, clearly acknowledges a representative's right to assist and counsel workers during the interview.

The Supreme Court has also ruled that during an investigatory interview management must inform the union representative of the subject of the interrogation. The representative must also be allowed to speak privately with the employee before the interview. During the questioning, the representative can interrupt to clarify a question or to object to confusing or intimidating tactics.

While the interview is in progress the representative can not tell the employee what to say but he may advise them on how to answer a question. At the end of the interview the union representative can add information to support the employee's case.

On June 15, 2004, The National Labor Relations Board ruled by a 3-2 vote that employees who work in a nonunionized workplace are not entitled under Section 7 of the National Labor Relations Act to have a coworker accompany them to an interview with their employer, even if the affected employee reasonably believes that the interview might result in discipline.
This decision effectively reversed the July 2000 decision of the Clinton Board that extended Weingarten Rights to nonunion employees.

Back to Our Main Page

From NLRA Basics presented at 2006 ABA Annual Meeting (Honolulu, August 5-8, 2006)

Weingarten Questions:

Right to Union Representation & Role of Union Representation In Disciplinary Actions

In NLRB v. Weingarten, Inc., the U.S. Supreme Court held that an employee has the right under the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) to union representation at an investigatory interview which the employee reasonably believes may result in disciplinary action. NLRB v. J. Weingarten, Inc., 420 U.S. 251 (1975).

1. When is Protection Afforded?

Protection under Weingarten is afforded when an employee reasonably believes that disciplinary action may be the result of his/her meeting with the employer's representative in an investigatory interview and where the employee requests representation.

a. What is a "reasonable" belief is measured by objective standards, not the subjective motivations of the employee, based upon a reasonable evaluation of all the surrounding circumstances.

b. An employee can participate in an interview without a representative if he/she foregoes his/her right to request one.

c. Ordinarily, once a valid request for union representation is made, the burden is on the employer to either grant the request or offer the employee the choice between continuing the interview unaccompanied by a union representative or having no interview at all.

d. An employer has no obligation to continue with an investigative interview once union representation is requested. It does not have to justify its refusal and can continue its investigation without questioning the employee and the employee then foregoes any benefits that may be derived from participating in an interview.

2. What Role Does the Union Representative Play?

a. The representative's role is to assist the employee and the representative may do so "by attempting to clarify the facts or suggest other employees who may have knowledge of them." Weingarten, 420 U.S. 251 (1975).

b. A representative oversteps his/her bounds in instructing an employee not to answer a question or questions during an interview. An employer may "eject" a representative who engages in such behavior because "it is within an employer's legitimate prerogative to investigate employee misconduct in its own facilities without interference from union officials." Weingarten, 420 U.S. 251 (1975).


Cases:

Employer lawfully denied employee's request for co-worker representative to accompany him during investigative interview, where employees, who were not union-represented, were not entitled to co-worker representative. —Publix Super Markets Inc. (347 NLRB No. 124) 180 LRRM 1480 <2006>.

Employer violated Sec. 8(a)(1) when its supervisor refused to allow union representative attending predisciplinary interview to speak on behalf of employee facing discipline, where supervisor's statements at beginning of meeting limited role of union representative to that of observer, and statements were not ambiguous. —U.S. Postal Service (347 NLRB No. 89) 180 LRRM 1495 <2006>.

Employer unlawfully denied union representation to two employees at grievance meetings by permitting union representative to attend but prohibiting him from actively assisting employees, where meetings were predisciplinary investigatory meetings and did not involve imposition of predetermined discipline, and thus principles of NLRB v. Weingarten, apply to these meetings. —Washoe Medical Center Inc.. (348 NLRB No. 22) 180 LRRM 1502 <2006>.



Employer unlawfully refused to permit employee who was union steward to speak with union representative before investigatory interview and when it failed to notify him or union representative of disciplinary charges before such interview, where, among other things, collective-bargaining agreement required employer to provide notice of disciplinary charges prior to investigatory interview. —U.S. Postal Service (345 NLRB No. 26) 178 LRRM 1213 <2005>.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
18. They can reapply.
Christ, is it just coincidence that the people who are so routinely bad at math and fact checking are falling over themselves to support bad teachers?
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