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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:30 PM
Original message
Obama’s Ronald Reagan Moment
Remember when candidate Obama said


I think Ronald Reaganchanged the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing.


http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3263

You thought he was kidding, right? You thought he was courting moderate Republicans? Or maybe seeking to distance himself from Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who had said such incendiary things as

"In spite of being in a world torn by war, in spite of being on a world destroyed by hate and decimated by distrust, in spite of being on a world where famine and greed are uneasy bed partners, in spite of being on a world where apartheid and apathy feed the fires of racism and hatred, in spite of being on a world where nuclear nightmare draws closer with each second, in spite of being on a ticking time bomb, with her clothes in rags, her body scarred and bruised and bleeding, her harp all but destroyed and with only one string left, she had the audacity to make music and praise God."


How many folks thought that Obama meant what he said about being a crowd pleasing, entrepreneur fostering president…like Ronald Reagan? That few. I am sometimes surprised at what a loyal following he had, with so many people convinced that he was not telling the truth about Afghanistan, about nuclear energy, about warrantless wiretaps----and about Reagan.

Reagan did not actually do a whole lot of anything. He let Bush run his foreign policy, with all his covert wars and under the table arms deals with our enemies. He let his cabinet secretaries pretty much run wild. But there is one thing he is remembered for, one instance in which he was more than just the nation’s generic white Dad.

On August 3, 1981 nearly 13,000 of the 17,500 members of the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) walked off the job, hoping to disrupt the nation's transportation system to the extent that the federal government would accede to its demands for higher wages, a shorter work week, and better retirement benefits. At a press conference in the White House Rose Garden that same day, President Reagan responded with a stern ultimatum: The strikers were to return to work within 48 hours or face termination. As federal employees the controllers were violating the no-strike clause of their employment contracts. In 1955 Congress had made such strikes a crime punishable by a fine or one year of incarceration -- a law upheld by the Supreme Court in 1971. Nevertheless, 22 unauthorized strikes had occurred in recent years -- by postal workers, Government Printing Office and Library of Congress employees, and by air traffic controllers who staged "sick-outs" in 1969 and 1970


Reagan’s decision was an easy one. For

There wasnt much support for the PATCO strikers. The public sided with the government and exhibited little sympathy for individuals whose earnings were already well above the national average.


The result?

According to journalist Haynes Johnson, the decisive manner in which Reagan handled the PATCO strike convinced many Americans that he was "the kind of leader the country longed for and thought it had lost: a strong president"


http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id296.htm

Another president, another recession, more striking public employees who make more than the average local wage in the poorest city in their state.

Teacher salaries at the high school average $72-78k. Apparently 50% of the students at the school are failing all of their classes, and the graduation rate is also under 50%. In an effort to turn the school around, the superintendent requested some changes be made whereby the school day would be slightly extended, teachers would perform some extra tutoring, etc.

The union balked and refused the terms, so now she is firing the entire teaching staff of the high school and replacing them. This is yet another example of unions digging their own graves by refusing to negotiate or accept reasonable terms. Sentiment is on the side of the superintendent, at least among the folks I have discussed the issue with.


http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-unionized-rhode-island-teachers-refuse-to-work-25-minutes-more-per-day-so-town-fires-all-of-them-2010-2


Now, this was not exactly a Ronald Reagan moment. These were not federal employees and therefore they were not under the President’s jurisdiction. But Obama saw opportunity knocking.

Education Secretary Arne Duncan has "applauded" the move to fire every teacher at Rhode Island's Central Falls High School, the Providence Journal reports.

Snip

But Duncan says that education officials are "showing courage and doing the right thing for kids


Hmm. So I guess it was Education Secretary Duncan who saw opportunity knocking and who seized it. But at least the press gave Obama the headline as in

Obama Official Applauds Rhode Island Teacher Firings


http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/02/24/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry6239681.shtml

And Obama certainly seized the day---a week later—in a most Ronald Reaganesque manner.

A long-troubled Rhode Island high school that fired all its educators last week is an example of the need for accountability over student performance, President Barack Obama said Monday during an address in Washington.
Obama cited a decision last week to fire 93 teachers, administrators and other support staff by the end of the year at Central Falls High School as an example of school reform. No more than half of those teachers could be hired back under federal rules.


http://www.thebostonchannel.com/education/22713048/detail.html

So now, if you Google “Obama Reagan teachers fired”, you get 50,000 hits.

And that is how a Ronald Reagan moment is created! Because it is so much easier to blame the teachers than to blame society which made Central Falls the poorest city in the state of Rhode Island.

Capital must protect itself in every way...Debts must be collected and loans and mortgages foreclosed as soon as possible. When through a process of law the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and more easily governed by the strong arm of the law applied by the central power of leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. This is well known among our principle men now engaged in forming an imperialism of capitalism to govern the world. By dividing the people we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us except as teachers of the common herd.
-J.P. Morgan


And that, my fellow Democrats, is how a Divide and Conquer moment is created. And if corporate America is lucky, no one worth mentioning will ask how a town in Rhode Island comes to be so poor when the state is the 17th richest in the country.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. Completely ridiculous.
On August 3, 1981 nearly 13,000 of the 17,500 members of the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) walked off the job, hoping to disrupt the nation's transportation system to the extent that the federal government would accede to its demands for higher wages, a shorter work week, and better retirement benefits. At a press conference in the White House Rose Garden that same day, President Reagan responded with a stern ultimatum: The strikers were to return to work within 48 hours or face termination.

The two incidents aren't remotely comparable.

President Obama's Education agenda was explicitly outlined. People who disagree with it then, still do. Nothing is a surprise. The President's actions and statements are completely in line with his agenda, and Arne Duncan is simply carrying out that agenda.

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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. If you're right, it then follows inevitably that Obama is an anti-labor scumbag.
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warm regards Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
59. Demanding that teachers do what they are paid to do does not make Obama
"an anti-labor scumbag."

Actually, those words say more about you than they do about him.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #59
68. Your boilerplate denial says more about you.
Firing a school staff is not intended as anything like school improvement. It's an exercise in union-busting, and everybody goddamn well knows it.
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emsimon33 Donating Member (904 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #68
80. You are so right on this issue.
Obama just keeps disappointing.
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warm regards Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #68
81. I expect people to do the job they are paid to do.
There were no doubt some good teachers that got caught up in this, but that is the nature of collectivism.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #81
101. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
warm regards Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #101
109. Well, I suppose if Obama is Ronald Reagan, I could be a troll.
:hi:

But that doesn't change the fact that governments (or any employer) can't afford to keep people on the payroll who do not perform.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. Democrats don't refer to unionism as "collectivism."
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warm regards Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. They do call it collective bargaining, don't they?


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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. Different context, different meaning.
My comment stands as 100% true: Democrats don't refer to unionism as collectivism. Period.
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warm regards Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #112
116. Not really...
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. People can make up their own minds how comparable they are.
http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Bloomberg+Sharpton+Gingrich+Address+Media+dpQOAMG2Po7l.jpg

Anyone who supports Gingrich's Third Way, even embraces it, is no Democrat. If you keep it up, maybe Fox will start putting an R behind Obama, wouldn't that be nice?
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
29. Isn't it Arne Duncan on the left?

BTW, Gingrich is one of THE most loathsome Repukes of all time, IMO. x(
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Yes and agreed.
I didn't send Obama to DC to build Third Way bridges.

It's ironic that even as Obama has done everything he can to include Gingrich, Newt continues to bite him in the ass.

"Well, I think that what you’re seeing is a Chicago machine politics approach that basically says, if we can run over you and mug you, then we’re going to get away with it. And I think what they don’t understand is that this is not Chicago. That the United States is not going to tolerate a group of people trying apply kind of a Hugo Chavez majoritarian rule in the Senate. I don’t it’ll happen." Newt Gingrich Feb 25, 2010

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002581/
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Chisox08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #29
87. Arne Duncan is a corporatist asshole
and Mayor Daley's favorite yes man. The former CEO of the Chicago Public Schools opened he door to the corporate takeover of our public schools. He was a bis supporter of NCLB and under Duncan the CPS curriculum became completely focused on passing a standardized test.
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. People voted for Obama to get us out of Iraq
not for Obama's ridiculous education ideas like firing these teachers, or favoring chartering schools to the disadvantage of public schools.

Obama still doesn't get it if he thinks he can sneak in this Reagan-like education crap. Bad policy has consequences. I foresee a big dip in Obama's approval ratings.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:58 PM
Original message
Then people are getting their wish. Comparing a school board's actions to Reagan's ultimatum
in completely different circumstances and attributing it to President Obama because of his statement is ridiculous.

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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. you've got to be kidding
Firing en masse IS union busting.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. No, I'm not kidding. It's ridiculous. n/t
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Might want to flesh out your defense a little better.
Rahm and Team Triangulation must be over confident to extreme or too busy if better excuses and responses aren't out there.

And maybe this will help you, ps, while President Obama was talking to the US Chamber of Commerce, members in attendance noticed he had his fingers crossed through much of the speech.

Reagan had union member votes, I will be surprised if they didn't learn from the whooping Reagan gave them and Obama suffers the fallout. Many average American workers feel left behind and our local economies, middle class and lower classes should have been treated as Too Big To Fail.

The unreasonable aggressive progressives are not going to give up their principles for ANY President.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
65. 2 possible responses to this request for a fleshed out defense
1) copied and pasted links that do not relate to the subject at hand

or

2) :crickets:
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #65
76. Seems like some regular posters prefer drive-by disruption.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #65
88. I am betting on crickets.
The hits come fast and then tend to melt away, unless some new talking points are dispersed in the interim.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
43. Shout it again. And again. And again.
Keep yelling 'ridiculous'. Maybe some dim souls will start to think you have a point.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
63. You're ridiculous.
The school board only fired the teachers after negotiations broke down over how to compensate (although clearly the preference on the part of the school board was not to bother to compensate at all) the teachers for the extra time they were demanding of them in the first place. Then when the teachers dared expect extra pay for yet more extra work the school board decided to fire the teachers en mass. This bullshit about how poorly the school is doing (which while it does have horrible numbers had in fact been improving) is the school board covering its own ass in its blatant attempts to bust the union.

Facts do actually mean something it would be nice if you'd actually check them for a change instead of your usual knee jerk shit throwing at anyone who dare criticize the president.

Your shtick is getting really old.
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warm regards Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
60. I didn't realize that Obama was involved in such low level decisions.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Where did he outline firing all the teachers in a failing school district?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. The agenda = privatize the public schools, replace with private charters, resegregate the schools
:evilfrown::thumbsdown:
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. I do want to congratulate the privatize public schools folks.
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 01:49 PM by YOY
They have gotten their pony.

Now we'll see if this continues on a national level. Probably it won't.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
57. If a man tells a woman that he will rape her at the end of the week, and at the end of that week,
he carries out his threat, are his actions any less wrong?
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scentopine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
69. LOL! The DLC apologists waste no time defending the right rear flank...
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 12:05 AM by scentopine
"The President's actions and statements are completely in line with his agenda"

A classic example of corporate political business nonsense talk - the kind of thing that the smug center right wing apologists like to throw at liberals with a big side order of fuck you.

You are right prosense, you and the other apologists are absolutely correct - we won't make the same mistake twice with Obama. What were we thinking when he said he was going to fire teachers and privatize school systems, let insurance companies and pharma write health care legislation, that we'd turn a blind eye toward torture and wire tapping, that we'd escalate a never ending war, spend all our political capital appeasing the right wing and scolding liberals. Yes, we knew he'd turn a blind eye to wall street greed and go soft on banking reform. Yep - even with raging unemployment we knew he'd avoid dealing with outsourcing and talk about new free trade agreements while he claims to be a fierce protector of the free market. No prosecutions for torture, no investigation into Iraq - yep, that's exactly the chage we need in America.

The Democratic party has proven itself unworthy of support. They are fucking up. Badly. I've donated thousands of dollars to democratic party and party causes over last few years. Thanks to Obama that has come to a screeching stop. Many of us have stopped donating cash and labor. Let's see how that works out for the centrists.

As for being comparable - you are 100% wrong. Obama and the neo-lib/neo-dem free marketeers are nearly indistinguishable from early neo-cons. Even tarp and the famous stimulus - a neo-con trickle down wet dream a stab right into the heart of FDR. Even after two massive "free" market baking disasters in 25 years, Enron, and a host of other deregulation disasters, the neo-dems are still beating the drum for privatization.

They want to put Reagan on the $50 bill instead of Grant - who defeated the south in a civil war. I can almost hear Obama and the "centrists" saying he's just fine with that and rushing out to tell us why we are wrong to be outraged and angry. If there was ever a time to be angry with democratic leadership and Washington in general - it is now. In fact, I'll claim by looking at new hires, inflation in health care, outsourcing, credit defaults, foreclosures, commercial real estate crash, bankruptcy numbers - that things are going to get much worse for the middle class and below. Yep - and Obama told us this all along, if only we had listened, as you suggest. Thank you for reminding us over and over.

Yes - Obama showing us his inner Reagan and the DLC defenders and apologists are just fine with that. Democrats have moved so far right they are neo-con, the republicans are so far right they are just shy of fascism.






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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #69
82. +1
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #69
89. Thanks for telling it like it is.
Recent developments have clarified the basic fact that the ONLY way to defend Obama from a so-called Democratic standpoint is to shift very to the right on most aspects of national policy.

You would think that would bother some people, but it apparently doesn't.

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disillusioned73 Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #69
91. You just inspired a new DU logon user...
I Have been roaming the DU boards for some time now and I never felt the need to post anything until now. After reading your reply I was compelled to create a log on and thank you for your blunt honesty.

As a Prez Obama supporter during the campaign I have become completely disillusioned with the prospect of progressive change in our government. I frequent many sites for information that isn't readily available through our corporate media.... and the more I learn the more disenchanted I become.

The majority of my friends and family supported and were excited with Obamas election. Now it seems there is a disconnect, most really don't know(or care) what has happened this last year. For me it makes it even more frustrating to know the ins & out of this administration shortcomings to date.

I stopped buying the "12 dimensional chess" argument a long time ago, but I still hang on to a shred of hope that long term things will get better. I don't know how and I don't know when.... but that is better than complete despair

Thank you again
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #69
95. Great post
What the DLC centrists are refusing to acknowledge is they need our vote to reelect this guy. It isn't going to end very well if these third way corporate policies continue to dominate, is it.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #69
106. Fabulous post.Should be a stand alone OP!
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Spheric Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #69
108. Exactly. This should be its own OP.
Obama is no longer just driving the getaway car. He is now taking an proactive role in the sacking of America.

I can't express how disappointed and angry I am with this president.

:grr:
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #69
114. +1 zillion ...
If I could rec a reply ...

:thumbsup:
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
117. Yes they are ...
As a former federal employee, who has enjoyed the attempts of various administrations to break our unions and reduce our working conditions to dirt, I have to say the two incidents are very similar. The Controllers were mainly striking because they needed shorter hours. They were getting so fatigued that they could not function and they were afraid that planes would start crashing.

Federal employees cannot strike. The unions can go to court on issues that affect them and that can take years sometimes. The leader of PATCO decided to take a risk and have the controllers walk out. Reagan fired them all and added the caveat that they could never work for the government again. That was later modified to say that they could not work as controllers again because Reagan violated federal labor law by forbidding reemployment entirely.

Then Reagan blithely hired the second tier controllers who had not done so well on the tests and other qualifying exercises that the controllers were required to excel at. Sure enough the planes began crashing more frequently than they had before.

Obama once said that Reagan was the president he most admired. It seems to me that he took a page right out of Reagan's playbook and got involved in a situation to further his own agenda at the expense of the people who actually have to live with his decision. He acted to everyone's detriment as he often does.
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scentopine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. Democratic leadership is so out of phase -
they think this is 1980. People are starting to realize maybe all this right wing bullshit really is bullshit - dems think they have discovered the fountain of youth by taping into the neo-con formula - by their logic - it worked once - let's do it again.

Welcome to Hooverville.
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #119
120. Thanks ..
Let's draw up a cardboard box to put our coffee on and wait for the worst.;) Two things I forgot to mention in my post though. The Air Traffic Controllers are to the best of my knowledge civil service employees like I was. We work on a GS pay schedule which is determined by Congress and can't be raised without an act of congress. It is not open to collective bargaining. When you take your job you are placed in a retirement system, either CSRS before Reagan or FERS after Reagan. Again the unions cannot bargain to change retirement benefits, it would take an act of congress. The unions can try to get the GS grade raised on certain positions but it has to go through OPM and be studied and evaluated for years sometimes before it can be approved. So to make a long story short (too late) the Controllers were trying to negotiate shorter hours to minimize fatigue and burn out. Pay would not have been an issue they could bargain on, nor would retirement benefits.

I was a union steward in one of the government unions and I know this stuff. It is just getting my old brain engaged late at night.

As to society at large I am beginning to think that Chicken Little was right.:bounce:
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. You nailed it. When Obama praised Reagan, we all hoped he was just bullshitting.
The fact that he turned out to be serious is going to have disastrous consequences for this country.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. When Obama praised Reagan, we all hoped he was just bullshitting.
I think many of us believed he meant he wanted to create a liberal version of the "Reagan Revolution" that would secure the Democratic party in power for a generation just like Reagan ended up securing his party in power for a generation.

We didnt think he meant literally copying the worst economic and social policies Reagan was responsible for.

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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. That's what I believed.
I hope I'm never that stupid again!
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Im with ya
I feel like I was lied to by a used car salesman.

Convinced it was new, take it home and the wheels fell off.
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bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. One doesn't have to read too much between the lines
of "The Audacity of Hope" to see how much he admires the whole "Reagan approach", if you will, and the way he generated all kinds of momentum. Doesn't really matter that Reagan was one of the great con men of all time!
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Raygun was merely performing
his B-rated acting skills. Plus, his second term he was suffering from Alzheimers disease and couldn't recall a damn thing. Nancy ruled then....along with her astrologer.

Raygun did what the Money Boyz wanted him to...hey, remember this...Raygun thought waitresses and waiters were making too much money so he made the owners of the restaurant calculate 8% of the total on their meals served so to make sure they paid taxes.

Now in NYC and some places, maybe that's no problem. But at the time my mother worked as a waitress in a truck stop where you're lucky to get a damn tip. Yep...let's tax waitresses....that'll solve the budget deficit. But let the millionaires have huge write-offs. The decline of this nation started w/ Raygun. And it has been downhill ever since.

I remember Raygun well....and he got what he deserved. Sitting in a wheel chair lost in a fog. Karma never fails.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
50. Being lost in a fog seems like an easy way out for anyone responsible for such missery
not being able to remember ones dirty deeds doesn't seem like a punishment to me at all...
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. I wouldn't want
to die of Alzheimer's Disease, would you? I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

And Raygun was just taking orders from the Corporate PTB. Those are the ones running this country...not a minion prez.

And who knows what happens to evil souls after death??? You can't beat Karma. That's my belief and I'm sticking to it. I've seen it work so often.

I'd really like to see Rove have some nasty Karma...but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #54
92. accountability through karma
Thanks for that, really, no sarcasm. That's the best we've got isn't it?

I recall Reagan and most of his minions saying "I do not recall" a lot, some of them under oath.

Yeah there's a chunk of karma.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #92
99. I recall the
don't recalls as well.

Maybe you like 'what goes around, comes around' better?

I wonder what came around those minions and bit their collective genitalia.
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
107. That 8% was supposed to be a guideline but was used to extract more money from the working poor.
Some restaurants thought it was law and used it the way you suggested. My mother worked for a restaurant that did and was audited by the IRS and sent a tax bill for tips she had not received. She worked in a small coffee shop and didn't make the 8% in tips that her boss reported. To make a long story short she won in court against the IRS. Anyone who receives tips should keep a daily log, my mother did and it held up in court.
Too bad so many women like your mom were taxed unfairly.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #107
113. Does this still go on?
The 8% rule? Or has the percentage gone up w/ inflation?

I'm so glad your mom kicked some tax ass!
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. I'm sure it has gone up.
I haven't waited tables since 2003. The law is you are supposed to declare all tips and pay tax on them. Since only charge tips have a paper trail the govt came up with the 8% of sales as their guideline when they first started taxing tips. That is why it is important to keep a log of your tips. My mom had a customer who was a tax lawyer and when they first started taxing tips he advised her to keep a daily log. She was glad she did.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. +1
Obama at one:

I think people are dazzled by Obama's rhetoric, and that people ought to begin to understand that Obama is going to be a mediocre president--which means, in our time, a dangerous president--unless there is some national movement to push him in a better direction. - Howard Zinn

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20100201/forum/6

Never wanted Obama to be a 21st Century Reagan.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. Not "all" of us. Those who pointed at the red flag caught hell on DU, too.
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557188 Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. EXACTLY
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
41.  The shock and intense reaction to the Reagan talk have two explanations:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/robbedvoter/118
The discussion has been deleted, although it made top ten at the time. An excerpt


So, to have now one of OUR candidates - whom some of us deemed fairly progressive - embrace those memes ("welfare state" "personal responsibilities" "failed liberals" - which Bush uses too, BTW) - feels like a knife in the back. I feel betrayed and saddened that there are DU-ers that don't get it.
From January 18, 2008
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. you stated it very well. discussion is there, if you click on Discuss.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
42. Yup.
Remember when all feminists were automatically white racists? Fun times, that.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
44. When I quoted Reagan worship as reason for my choice of candidate, I was told:
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 03:54 PM by robbedvoter
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4231971#4235036
"54. People were morally dead during the Reagan era

and Obama wasn't quite an adult when it began. I can't really judge a candidate by their supporters, although Dean supporters seem to hang on forever (even now)"

Obviously, it wasn't about Reagan supporters, but what he stood for, and Obama was embracing this in the present time, in this campaign. Offending Clinton was just the cherry on top.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Obama was an adult, old enough to understand NOW how his praise of Reagan would resonate
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 04:39 PM by omega minimo
with those who will never forget the repugnant Great Obfuscator.

"So, Obama subscribing to the jargon - hit me where I live."

A Refresher in the Repulsiveness of Ronald Reagan
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5006983
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Exactly
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 05:40 PM by liberation
It is a lose-lose proposition in my book:

- If Obama did not mean what he said when praising Reagan, then he was being dishonest which is not a good thing.

- If he meant what he said about Reagan, then he was agreeing and lauding one of the most reactionary presidents in our country's history.


I found it troubling, at that time. Simply because Obama did not have to say what he said about Reagan. It would only get him in hot water with liberals, and it would not gain him any support from the hard core right which idolizes Reagan (they would rather stick a white hot iron up their rectum than vote Dem, much less a half black fellow like himself). The only time Obama has shown any fortitude is when weathering the flack that he has gotten from progressives, when the flak came from the conservatives he has folded quicker than Paris Hilton's knickers hit the ground. Case in point: his "dear" reverend Wright. By the time the GOP was done with their innuendo campaign, you could ask Obama and he would say "reverend who?" yet, he has stood like a good friend behind Geithner, Gates, et al.


As Carlin said "Bipartisanship means that politicians are trying to get away with a bigger deception than usual." I hate that the old fool was so correct on so many things... damn.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #48
77. Strongly agree.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
97. +1 nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Eric Condon Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. Actually, I interpreted it as him slamming Clinton
I took it to mean "Reagan changed the course of this country in ways that the next president from a different party did not." I didn't put much thought into it, because I thought it was just another instance of primary candidates invoking other pols to make a point about themselves, like when Hillary said the thing about MLK needing LBJ to actually get anything done.

What I didn't count on was what you said.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. That will teach all of us a lesson for supporting a person who doesn't mean what he says...
... that was our assumption, and we made it acceptable. We actually deserve what we got.

When we are so desperate and the expectations have been allowed to sink so low as to give a pass to a candidate who supposedly did not mean what he was saying, we ended up enabling dishonesty in the name of whatever political gain we were desperate to achieve at that moment. We in no other terms, allowed the ends to justify any means.


We got what we deserve, and I hope liberals in this country start learning the lesson: vote for people who have no problem meaning what they are saying, and who can support liberal and humane policies with no shame or compromise. The whole assumption that a candidate is playing 3D chess and is not saying what he means while conducting a surreal game of playing coy so that he can allow desperate progressives to project their expectations in order to gain our votes, without having to go through the trouble of actually having to promisse to support and stand for the interests of those whose votes he was fishing for... that whole act is getting a tad tiresome right about now.

Obama's latest union busting stance, and the utter farce which was this morning "health care" speech are hopefully the final nails on the coffin for any progressive support for his next popularity contest in 2012. The DLCites, who have never done an honest day of work in their lives, will prove super energetic and gregarious electoral troops I assume. Good luck, I am not wasting my hard earned money and my precious time in supporting a candidate who has absolutely no interest in enabling any major progressive agenda and whose definition of "change" means continuing the previous administration's policies down to a T, and who employs a chief of staff which has the gall of calling the base of the Dem party "retarded."

Good luck, and hope they build a nice muscle tone pounding all that sand.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
55. Yeah, I didn't get that at the time.
His supporters were defending him by saying he was lying.

I still don't get it.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
94. I knew absolutely that when BI praised RR that he was bad news.
Heck, even his pre election policies were repub lite. The fact that he admired Reagan was the last nail in the coffin for me. Sure like the rest of you I hoped, but in my mind I knew it was a futile hope, that he had revealed his true nature.

He wants to be the Gipper II. And so far he is doing a good job.
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CornerBar Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. Ouch
It's pull up the bootstraps time.

If only they would give me back my boots. Shit, they took the straps too. How far right can we go keeping it disguised as 'centrism'.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. With an expanding population and an ever expanding empire
Government can only do one thing efficiently and that is grow. It's a simple numbers game. Politicians and those on the right know this but they would never admit it to the hoi polloi.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. Reagan set the standard as Obama is doing today with teachers.

"That act had huge repercussions. Before Reagan replaced the air traffic controller strikers, it was relatively uncommon for employers to replace striking workers," McCartin explains. "But it became far more common after 1981, and in many ways President Reagan legitimized that response to strikes."

Georgetown University historian Joseph McCartin

The PATCO strike eased those inhibitions. Major strikes plummeted from an average of 300 each year in the decades before to fewer than 30 today.

"Any kind of worker, it seemed, was vulnerable to replacement if they went out on strike, and the psychological impact of that, I think, was huge," McCartin says. "The loss of the strike as a weapon for American workers has some rather profound, long-range consequences."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5604656



It was reagan who lied about public education by completely distorting the results of a national study on public education. Concluding the opposite of what the study found, the truth being public education was a success, reagan deemed it a failure using bogus analysis and the destruction began. Obama is simply picking up where the destructive policies of reagan left us and slamming home the same right wing slash and burn dogma used to undermine the public commons to kill public education for good.

He was absolutely truthful about his admiration for reagan and the brilliance of his PR machine was in it's ability to convince folks of the opposite despite the truth. Very much a hallmark of reagan's PR.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. Obama has made teachers the "welfare queens" of this administration.
Especially if they teach poor kids in poor neighborhoods who don't speak English well.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. +1
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Perfect!- "Especially if they teach poor kids in poor neighborhoods who don't speak English well"
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. McCamy...I always enjoy your
posts. Why does RI have such a high unemployment rate? Living in Ohio and being unemployed, I assumed that RI must have had an industry that moved to China. Like NC which had a huge furniture industry which has moved to China.

Maybe someone has info about RI.

I recently read that 1 out 3 students in this country drop out of school. So this is not a RI problem...it is a national one.

I believe the Government/Corporations planned on making public education horrible, especially in poor neighborhoods so: 1. Military recruitment would be easy 2. Drug dealing increases and the Corporate Prisons could make $$$.

If I had children who went to one of these horrid schools or if I were a student, I would be protesting every damn day. 'WE DESERVE A DECENT EDUCATION.' But instead MSM has brainwashed kids/parents into a 'ghetto mentality.' Violence, misogynist music, woman are whores, women are only good for sex and having babies, etc. And they eat it up....hook, line and sinker. Even the young males emulate the clothing of prisoners....wearing no belts. Hell, the prisoners aren't allowed to wear belts yet the kids willingly do this. And try to run with your pants falling down...easy catch by the police. (I saw this during the riots of Cincy, OH a few years back).

Have you looked at MTV lately? I watch America's Best Dance Crew....and those kids are fabulous. A show came on after and I was just blown away....young women having babies! It's encouraged.

Obama is turning against his own. I knew he'd do this. He is bought and paid for by Wall Street. I am ashamed of what has happened in what was once a fine country.

And you're right....it's 'Divide and Conquer' all the way. The working people, the unemployed, the foreclosed, the former middle class need to UNITE. Instead 'they' pit us against each other.

Plus American people are so easily manipulated...go read Chris Hedges' new book, "Empire of Illusion." That's a book of Truth.

Thx again for your posts.

WASF.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
25. "Trajectory" was a huge red flag
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 01:35 PM by omega minimo
DU didn't wanna hear it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5798348




Why would ANYONE praise Reagan's propaganda and "trajectory"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4222489

Maybe because they...............

Maybe they weren't there at the time? Weren't paying attention? Weren't born yet? Learned about the "Reagan Era" in school?

Maybe they wanted to be Alex Keaton? Didn't notice that the "Great Communicator" could not complete a sentence. "Well........ well........." ?

Maybe they believe homelessness is a lifestyle choice? Thought Reagan would look good in the Disneyland robotic Hall of Presidents?

Maybe they knew someone's brother-in-law's cousin's father who claimed he saw a "welfare queen" wearing furs and diamonds driving a Cadillac?

Maybe they didn't see a problem with rampant media consolidation until 30 years after it started? Never read "1984"? Think ketchup IS a vegetable?

Maybe they fell for "Greed Is Good"? Thought "Death Squad" was a band name? Thought Reagan's joke about bombing the Soviet Union in 5 minutes was funny?

Maybe they bought the lie that Ollie North was a "hero"? Thought that not impeaching a criminal president and administration was better for the country than upholding the Constitution?

Maybe they know who shot J.R.? Got fooled by the catchy slogan "Morning In America" while Reaganomics trickled wealth and ownership upward to the richest of the superrich?

Maybe they don't understand that Reagan's "trajectory" built on big lies and propaganda propelled us to the current administration of big lies and propaganda?

Maybe they like old men in rouge? Don't know that a lot of the current "illegal aliens" have fled the effects of Reaganism's policies south of the border?

Maybe they think that not impeaching a criminal president and administration is better for the country than upholding the Constitution?

Maybe they want to be the next "Great Communicator" of the art of propaganda with a national "trajectory"?

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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. Thank you for the most excellent links!

:yourock:

(I missed the threads the first time around. BTW, it was satisfying to see that a-hole gone: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5798348&mesg_id=5798361 )
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. you betcha.
:toast:
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. I must confess reading the linked threads give me the chills...
... it is really frightening to see a similar cult of personality and divorce from reality that some of the die hard Obama fans seem to display, just as the Bust acolites did during the past decade.

Every mean becomes justified if it can be assumed to map into their ends. it is astounding to see people making a case that a candidate not meaning what he is saying (a.k.a. DISHONESTY) is a good trait in a politician. It is clear politics in this country has devolved to be just a mere popularity contest. When Mr. Obama's pragmatism started to be lauded, all manners of red flags started popping left and right. Because pragmatism implies a lack of ideology, and ideology is a fundamental part of politics. So it became clear that a lot of people were not interested in the complexities of policy, or the nuances of ideology and its fundamental role in defining and holding accountable the proper context of a politician. Since all those complexities get in the way of a good ol' popularity context, where the winning smile and speech-giving abilities are more important, than the actual substance of what it's being said.

Interesting times indeed...
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. "we all hoped he was just bullshitting....."
:crazy:
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Indeed...
... people were hoping their candidate was a liar, and now are surprised when he acts like one.

A political system which has devolved a simple popularity context to chose between the lesser of two evils, sure brings some interesting situations... from an intellectual and logical perspective.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
30. He and Reagan share a disdain for certain minorities
and a love of big business. Anyone who would praise Reagan would have to be either ignorant, or fully bigoted. No middle ground, sorry. Reagan was the worst President of modern times, bar none.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Yep. nt
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. Obama's racist?
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. Classist.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
36. KR, excellent post and interesting comments in the thread!

:yourock:
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
37. He sounds more and more like a Republican.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #37
98. Acts like one too. nt
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
45. K&R I know this link has been shown before
but it seems more and more scary true each day.

Tom Tomorrow at http://www.salon.com/entertainment/comics/this_modern_world/2010/02/01/this_modern_world
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. Very funny. Thanks for the link.
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 06:45 PM by McCamy Taylor
I have cut Obama so much slack since he was nominated and elected. I am a lifelong Democrat, after all. But I am pro-labor as much as I am a Democrat. When Obama goes after labor----the heart and soul of the Democratic Party, the folks who got out there and worked their fingers off getting him elected---I have to wonder what he has been smoking. Labor is the key to stopping corporate fascism in its tracks. Anyone who deliberately tries to weaken labor as Obama has just done is doing the work of the corporate fascists.

Obama is making it increasingly difficult for himself to survive the 2012 Democratic primaries. At some point he has to stop following the Jimmy Carter playbook. Sure, it got him elected (all that hope and change) but it is going to get him unelected, too. You can not run a country with "style" and "charisma", not when it is in a depression. Big business helped Reagan by proclaiming that the economy under him was in good shape (it was not). But the corporate media is going to give the Democrat the full Jimmy Carter "You made this country a mess" treatment if the Republicans nominate someone who will give them more media mergers.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. I figure the media will cinch the nomination
for him. That sets him up for the abuse the follows during the election. republicans wreck the economy. An insecure Democrat serves four years and the republicans get to blame him and get a bye. Then they take another 12.

I'm finding it hard to believe that anyone who could get elected president (or the handlers who do it for people like george) is dumb enough to think that things are going his way. Makes me wonder if he really doesn't care. He got to be a name for the history books, will coast the rest of his life, and won't have to worry about a thing after 2012. It is getting hard to think about doing even half the work next time that I did this time.

I've said elsewhere that a republican president could never get away with the union busting and corporate handouts that are going on. The usual thing people say when we express dismay about the direction of the administration is "So you think mccain would be any better?" McCain couldn't get away with this stuff.

I think of all the young, first timers I worked with during the election and wonder how many would bother to even vote, let alone work, given the lack of the change that they thought was coming. Two I saw yesterday basically just said they can't believe they wasted all that time and energy. Their exact words were "fuck politics". I'm beginning to see their point.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
58. "Excesses of the 1960s and 1970s" ? Useless phrase.
BS. The only excesses were that the middle class was much more powerful than now, and that is what made it possible to have some semblance of a true revolution.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
61. I didn't know anyone was still willfully distorting that comment.
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 09:43 PM by Radical Activist
I thought that once the primary was over people would stop making strained, idiotic attempts at pretending Obama was claiming he would follow anything like Reagan's agenda. I guess there's never a shortage of people with an axe to grind who are willing to distort the truth.

If Obama is successful in his agenda, regulating banks, health care, climate change, then he will have been the most transformative and most liberal President since LBJ. The real question is how much of the left ever sincerely worked to get that agenda through the Senate instead of playing armchair quarterback. It's like people never heard of the concept that one step forward is better than no steps at all.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #61
70. It's not distorted. It made it very clear that the Obama admin would continue Reaganism as they have
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
62. What "trajectory" has the Obama administration changed?
:shrug:

Seems more like, they've opted for a caretaker presidency that doesn't ruffle many feathers.
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NYC Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Obama's gotten more done already than any other president in the last 40 years
in the same amount of time.

"caretaker presidency that doesn't ruffle many feathers" you say?
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #64
74. That bit of hype has zero to do with changing the trajectory
in the same way Reagan or FDR did.

Yep- caretaker presidency- Howard Zinn's description, and on the major issues- and the major problems, what the US got and looks to get is a series of ineffective half measures or minor window dressings.

Tic tock until the next financial meltdown and double digit health insurer rate hike.
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NYC Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #74
84. Well, actually it does.
It proves that this meme that "they've opted for a caretaker presidency that doesn't ruffle many feathers" is bullshit.
what the US got and looks to get is a series of ineffective half measures or minor window dressings.
So *you* claim. But in this case your claims don't match up with reality.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #84
90. The claims match up perfectly with the reality
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 09:17 AM by depakid
You won't get meaningful and effective health care reform- nor financial reform that's required prevent another meltdown (though maybe there's still hope on that front). Climate change? Not holding my breath.

You got a half measure stimulus that didn't come close to closing the output gap- and lo and behold, as economists predicted, unemployment is still rising in many places- and it ain't coming down any time soon.

You got a disclosure statute, that addressed a meager few credit card abuses that have been on the table since 2003.

In short, you got -at best- a return to the Clinton administration- and are staring down at another 1994 as a consequence.

And that "tic Tock til another double digit premium increase?

That didn't take long:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7840605

Expect a LOT more of them in the next several years.

Bottom line: you got a conciliator- not a fighter, a president who'd rather pursue bipartisan fantasies than engage in the conflct necessary to produce any sort of paradigm shifting.



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NYC Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #90
103. Except that they don't.
You can talk all you want in vague generalities and make all the dubious or outright false claims that you want. That's your right. But it's still not reality. The reality is, we have the most liberal administration in 30+ years, and also the most productive. These are not my opinions, they are the facts. Facts you seem content to ignore.

Your claim that this administration is or will be a "caretaker presidency that doesn't ruffle many feathers" is already demonstrably false. Period. Maybe you don't agree with some of the policies that Obama supports and has supported. Fine. I don't agree with him on everything either. (If a person agrees with a politician on everything, one of them is bullshitting.) But personally, I don't think spreading around falsehoods or long-debunked memes is conducive to changing minds or getting what you want done, done.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
66. K & R nt
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NYC Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
67. Not this bullshit again. "he just tapped into what people were already feeling"
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 10:50 PM by NYC Liberal
People WANTED "a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing".

Obama never said that Reagan actually DID foster entrepreneurship or anything else.

Just that he "tapped into" people's desires for it - aka he exploited it.

It would be like Joe saying "Hitler tapped into what Germans were feeling, which was that they were wronged after WWI and wanted to correct those wrongs" and then Bob coming along and claiming Joe supports the Holocaust.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #67
71. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
72. Obama's had *many* Reagan moments, such as choosing reaganomics Summers as Econ Advisor
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
73. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
75. speaking of divide and conquer
yet another post from you about how we should have gone with Hillary in the primary. Play it again, McCam, those Hill Street Blues.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
78. Ronald Reagan, the actor


Maybe this is the shot they have in mind to replace Grant on the $50.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
79. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DisgustedInMN Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
83. Is it ok to post hero worship of Ronnie Raygun here?
That's the asshole who is, to a large degree, the architect of the current Second Great Depression.

It sure tells me all I need to know about the ANTI-LABOR author of the OP. What the hell are you doing on a DEMOCRATIC website?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
85. pitiful
another emperor's new clothes post from thee. and lots of suckers to rec the piece of shit.

no, I didn't think he was kidding, honeypie. I thought he was historically correct- and it doesn't take much to understand that he was.

Your post is so dishonest. Obama went on to say that he wanted to be a transformational president who took the country in a different direction from Reagan. Now, he hasn't done that, but trying to make him out as a Reagan clone is beyond stupid, sweetums.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #85
96. Blue moon. Completely agree.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #85
105. Anyone who wants to exercise their reading comprehension skills can see...
...that nowhere in Obama's statement did he assign an evaluation of quality to Reagan's "transformative direction." Try and count how many judgments or adjectives are in that statement.

What Obama said was dead on correct. He just chose nicer language to do so. You or I might have phrased it thusly: People were frustrated and looking for simple answers to the complexities of life. They wanted to be fooled and Reagan was more than happy to do so. He completely transformed the nation to such an extent that mainstream candidates like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama are now ridiculously thought to be on the far left. Reagan changed the direction of the United States alright...and drove it right into the ditch.

Nothing Obama said above counters any of what I just wrote, it's just more diplomatic.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
86. When you strip off "the masks" they both resemble THIS:
Give me, give me just half a chance
To lead you in this corporate dance
And I'll be dirty rotten filthy $tinking rich
Hu Huu Ha Huu Ho Huu

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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
93. We get the government we deserve. Not the one we need.
I was willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt until the RI union busting.

This country is running, not walking, down the path to destruction and most folks don't know and don't care.
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NM_hemilover Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
100. What, he fell asleep and forgot where he was ?
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
102. Of course you completely miss the point
It's the action, the verb part of the phrase that was critical in what he said

"changed the trajectory of America"

Your argument is absurd on it's face...
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
104. Why couldn't you have just put "Central Falls" in the thread title and saved me
a couple of minutes?
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scentopine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
118. Great post.. The OFA/DLC right wingers are squirming (again) and this is good -nt
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